# Roofing



## mudflap (Sep 12, 2009)

I am going to have the third roof put on my house and am looking at metal roofing. Does any body here know anything about them and if someone is in the business in the Raleigh N.C. let me know.
Thanks


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

I am in the same boat. Metal roofing typically costs about 20% more than shingles but lasts a LOT long. Metal roofs however do not do well in high wind storm scenarios such as tornado's or very high straight line winds. On the other hand, shingle don't do much better. The metal roof is usually 100% lost and shingles are lost in various locations. 

I am going to go with a metal roof. I am tired of repairing shingle that get blown off and leak. We have some Menonites who build storage buildings, homes, and do metal roofing in our area that install them for a very reasonable price. A local roofer quoted me a price of $8000 to install a metal roof on our house and 2 car garage. (about 40 squares worth of shingles equivalent). I think the Menonite guy can do it for less and do as good a job or better. Check around your area and get some quotes.


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## MFreund (May 2, 2008)

I had the same questions when my roof was bad 3 yrs ago. I am in a very open high wind area. We went with the 50 yr architectual shingles. Simply put, a friend who is a firefighter said when they go to a house fire with a metal roof their job is easy. Keep it from burning down the neighbor's house. He said that the fire gets under the steel and "runs" the length of the house. You may never have a fire but is something to consider. Now the material prices are very close between steel and asphalt because of the price rise in asphalt shingles vs. when we did ours.

TF Admin, $8000 is not a bad price. We were quoted $10500 for about the same sq ft. It also included tear off of 2 layers.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

I do metal for a living. If you have a good roof deck, with 5/8 inch ply, not that OSB crap, and you use 5/16 inch fasteners, if the metal comes off, the house will still be attached to it! If you can afford it, go with a standing seam product such as "snap lock" these systems cost more, but have no exposed fasteners, that could leak. If you use 1/4 inch screws in plywood or lord forbid, OSB, they will work loose from the expansion and contraction of the metal, on those hot days where you have an occasional cloud. If you do live on the plaines, where you get driving snows.......install "C" or "J" profile metal at the top of your sheets of metal, to prevent snow from blowing under your ridge cap and into the attic through the venting in your roof peak. IMPORTANT! Be sure that all staples from the felt instalation, are all down in the wood. These guys who race across your roof blasting in a thousand staples a minute with a hand held hammer tacker, will leave staples sticking up out of the wood, where they'll be visable under the roofing, and could puncture through. The metal on my houses roof, was installed in 1980, and is still going strong, though some of the rubber under the screws are turning to dust, hence the advice on the snap lock roofing systems. Even though the rubber has just about vanished, after 30 years, remember that back then, they only had the 1/4 inch headed scerews.......the roof does not leak at all. Lastly, metal does a great deal in preventing the spread of fire, in the wevent of a wild fire.


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## Fordfarm (Dec 27, 2005)

Well - I used to inspect roof installations for warranty and insurance. I did it for a lot of years. I can safely say that I have NEVER been on a metal roof (on an "occupied" structure) that I did not find damage under the metal that was CAUSED by the metal. Same for the metal wrapped windows/soffets. The installation can be 100% PERFECT, but there will always be unseen damage - even with "standing seam". 

I, personally, cannot recommend a metal roof (especially a "re-roof") on any inhabited structure. 

But that's just me.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Fordfarm said:


> Well - I used to inspect roof installations for warranty and insurance. I did it for a lot of years. I can safely say that I have NEVER been on a metal roof (on an "occupied" structure) that I did not find damage under the metal that was CAUSED by the metal. Same for the metal wrapped windows/soffets. The installation can be 100% PERFECT, but there will always be unseen damage - even with "standing seam".
> 
> I, personally, cannot recommend a metal roof (especially a "re-roof") on any inhabited structure.
> 
> But that's just me.


Like what damage Fordfarm? Can you please explain how this damage could occure? I've never ever seen an instance, where the metal caused damage underneath. I'm not bragging on myself, but I've installed and removed more metal roofing than even I could imagine over the last 24 years, and I've never seen any sort of damage, except for those roofs that were installed improperely, like over an area that was unvented for moisture or lack of moisture barrier, or inadaquate sheeting underneath, or missed screws or screws that are not torqued properly. Many people do not like metal, for many reasons like they hate hearing the rain on it, or the hate the snow falling off the metal onto their walways and so on, but I must admit, that your statement, respectfully, is seriously questionable. Can you give specifics as to the damage you speak of? How it is caused and so on. I'm just a bit miffed.


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## Fordfarm (Dec 27, 2005)

Basically, every house is very different from even the one next door. Every BUILDER is different, too. With metal, there actually is not PERFECT installation (shingles, either, but they are more forgiving). I have taken apart "perfect" installations that were only 30 days old and found condensation issues underneath. There are also damages/affects to other parts of the house that are CAUSED by the metal. Anything from condesation, sticky windows, to mold. The house will heat/cool different during the day. Even the amount of people living in the home can have a pronounced effect. 

I have detailed reports, several pages long with photos, measurements and instrument readings, that I have collected over the years. 

Dryer climates don't have as much problems, but can still experience the same effects. The worst problems occur when it is a "re-roof" over an older home. It changes the breathing dynamics DRASTICALLY.

Not knocking your profession, there are people who are well pleased with metal roofing.

Having seen the problems associated with it, I just can't personally recommend it.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Fordfarm said:


> Basically, every house is very different from even the one next door. Every BUILDER is different, too. With metal, there actually is not PERFECT installation (shingles, either, but they are more forgiving). I have taken apart "perfect" installations that were only 30 days old and found condensation issues underneath. There are also damages/affects to other parts of the house that are CAUSED by the metal. Anything from condesation, sticky windows, to mold. The house will heat/cool different during the day. Even the amount of people living in the home can have a pronounced effect.
> 
> I have detailed reports, several pages long with photos, measurements and instrument readings, that I have collected over the years.
> 
> ...


HMMM! I sure wish you could share the reports with me. As a professional, I'm always eager to learn about ways to improve my product. It just doesn't make sense at all. Houses all must be inspected to comply with the UBC (uniform building code) which is a federal mandate that local counties and city building departments adhere to and inforce. All homes must provide adaquate ventilation to the attic, be it gable vents or soffit vents and all metal roofing, if installed correctly, lays on top of felt. Even if roof metal condensates on the back side, which is pretty difficult, on account of the fact that air, charged with moisture, cannot easily get to the back side, because the metal is being sandwiched up against the felt and them plywood, the felt prevents the moisture from contacting the wood. Furthermore, the soffit vents and or gable vents, circulate the air freely underneath the metal, by design, so it's technically impossible for condensation or moisture vapor from the occupied home or building, to get trapped under the metal. Unquestionably, if metal was as problematic as you indicate, there would be numerous lawsuites, word of mouth would get around, and people would avoid metal with a passion. There is no doubt that I have dealt with moisture, and mold related abatement issues, and in every case, it was a matter of the house wasn't properely ventilated, or, the builder installed a dryer or bathroom exhaust in the attic, without ventilation to the attic. In many cases in my area, metal is even improperly installed in that the laps are reversed so that water could potentially wick under the panel laps, but here again, the felt paper is the safety net. Respectfully, Fordfarm, I would have to say that there were other factors at hand that you just weren't aware of, because metal roofing is a huge business, that homeowners and commercial establishments use all the time, and I can point to so many roofs, such as mine, that are 30 to 40 years old and are still going, without a hint of damage. I just can't help but look at this in a more anylitical perspective, and state that here again, if the metal roofs were as wide spread culprits of problems as you indicate, even when properly installed..........The metal firms would have been bankrupt from lawsuites and word of mouth long ago. Believe me, builders, material suppliers, manufacturers and home owners as well as business owners typically will avoid problematic products at all cost's. If a product or building principle causes damage, it gets abandoned pretty fast, so it just doesn't make sense, what your saying. There simply is more to those reports than your letting on, or your not getting all the facts, because I've built so many projects that were engineered on paper and approaved by the building department, and many of these projects, I drive by every day, and the roofs I installed are still going strong! Not trying to start a war here, I might be missing something, it's true. Just very familiar with my trade, and your opinion just doesnt make scientific sense to me. Let's not put anyone in the crosshairs now. I am stubborn I admit, but I am open to learning and improving, through information! Just wanted to see the facts surrounding your findings.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

jay3534 said:


> I am going to have the third roof put on my house and am looking at metal roofing. Does any body here know anything about them and if someone is in the business in the Raleigh N.C. let me know.
> Thanks


Jay, just curious what it is that's failing on your repeated installations. Is it the wind, or is the roofing material just aging prematurly? What sort of weather do you get there in terms of moisture? Is it humid, or do you get lots of snow? I would have a very in depth discussion with a few roofing contractors in your area. Maybe even talk to other folks in your area, who have metal roofs, and ask them what they think about them. There are other roofing alternatives as well, that you might explore.


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## chrpmaster (May 5, 2004)

I looked at putting on metal roofing last summer when I needed to redo my roof. I had a good friend put on a new metal roof and he did it himself. It turned out great and he has had no problems. I couldn't get my wife to go for the look. Plus the price of materials was at least 50% more than shingles. I wanted to put metal on so that I wouldn't need to strip off the old layer and redo with new shingles. In the end I went ahead and striped off the old and replaced with all new. Now I'm glad I did but that was a very hard week of work for me. Luckily I hired some teenage kids to help. It reminded me how much energy I had at that age. The great part was I hired one teenage boy and two teenage girls. All those kids really worked hard and were fun to be around. None of them complained about anything and they really earned their money. I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if I needed the "manpower".


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## Fordfarm (Dec 27, 2005)

MIAB -

Like I said - every house is different! Your installation might be as "perfect" as you can get one. The product might be as perfect as it can be BUT - it can still cause problems that are UNRELATED to the roof, but CAUSED by it. If visible, it will usually manifest itself in something that is totally away from the roof. It takes time, digging and knowing how things wrok together to find it. It isn't always caused by a roof, but if nothing else with the house and it's environment has changed, it's a good place to start. 

I'm sure you are proud of your work and have a good track record. Didn't mean to rile you up, but I've seen to much evidence - at least in the areas of the country where I DID inspect. Fenestration is an odd-ball thing to understand. You have to look at the entire structure, not just one part.


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## flman (Mar 23, 2010)

I would think water could shed under or over metal or shingles just the same. It is all in the installation, and I would consider a metal roof over shingles any day. A tin roof can be easily repaired with a little solder. I would agree that they are not as forgiving as asphalt would be on a bad installation.


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## Fordfarm (Dec 27, 2005)

Well - in MY experience - a good, quaility SHINGLE roof is more "forgiving"!

You all can put on what ever roof you want - I was just letting you know what I have experienced.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Fordfarm said:


> MIAB -
> 
> Like I said - every house is different! Your installation might be as "perfect" as you can get one. The product might be as perfect as it can be BUT - it can still cause problems that are UNRELATED to the roof, but CAUSED by it. If visible, it will usually manifest itself in something that is totally away from the roof. It takes time, digging and knowing how things wrok together to find it. It isn't always caused by a roof, but if nothing else with the house and it's environment has changed, it's a good place to start.
> 
> I'm sure you are proud of your work and have a good track record. Didn't mean to rile you up, but I've seen to much evidence - at least in the areas of the country where I DID inspect. Fenestration is an odd-ball thing to understand. You have to look at the entire structure, not just one part.


 I'm not riled up at all. Just don't make sense and I want to understand. This I know is the facts. Any and all portions of a metal roof that make any contact whatsoever, with a building, rest upon a vapor barrier or moisture barrier. If it's a roof, it's got solid tar paper underneath, that prevents moisture from reaching not only the wood beneath that, but even the home or dwelling space. Here's how it works.......The metal rests up against the felt. If it's a truss built roof, it will have a large void above the living space, and below the roof system. The soffits will have strip vents and or the gable ends will have vents that allow air to enter the attic. The air enters at the ceiling line of the homes eave, circulates through the attic, then escapes through a strip vent cut in the roof sheeting at the peak under the ridge cap, and or through those gable vents. If the home is "hand stacked" meaning it has rafters and vaulted ceilings, in other words, no attic, then the insulation is place in the framing bays so that there is a minimum 2 inch air space, to allow the above process to take place. Obviously, in this type of scenerio, gable vents cannot be employed. Only the soffit strip vents. Whether you realize it or not, EVERY home produces moisture. Showers, drying clothes, cooking even your breathing, produces moisture in your living space. Even through the application on the inside of your exterior walls and ceiling of a home of a PVA or primer vapor barrier, just prior to shooting the drywall texture and lastly the paint on the inside of your exterior wallsand ceiliong, moisture still leaches out through your ceiling and walls via recepticles and ceiling light boxes, small penetrations and so on. This is the root cause of the damage you speak of, in those homes that have not made provisions for this moisture vapor. Older homes had enough drafts to prevent this from being an issue, but since the 1980s and chiefly since the introduction of "Super good cents" building practices, now abandoned partially, homes have become super airtight! At one point, homes built under the "Super good cents, principle, actually had fans that circulated air through the home via air ducts in the closets. This internal moisture is the biggest enemy and root cause of moistur related damage, whenever a home is not properleuy vented. Do a google search on the subject and you'll be inundated with info and facts on the subject. This is precisely why most older homes have rot in the crawlspace or floor system, because the were unaware of the need for crawlspace vents. This is why homes build today, and for the last 40 years, are now required to have a vent for every 150 square feet of crawl space. Proper venting is the issue, not metal roofing! In a properley built home, correctly vented, and a roof properley installed, it is impossible for there to be moisture damage. Here's an experiment you can do at home to further prove my point. Take a piece of sheet metal and attach it to a piece of plywood or OSB with a piece of tar paper sandwiched in between. The only way that metal can create condensation is through temerature changes. Just like the exhaust pipe on your car when you first start it up in the morning, and you see water dripping out the tail pipe, until the car warms up. Cold and warm surfaces in warm or cold air, charged with moisture, will create condensation droplets on the cold surface of metal. If you insulate that surface with any type of insulation, you will not be allowing air to get to that surface, and hence, no condensation droplets. Take an ice cold can of beer from the fridge and set it on the counter and give it a few minutes and you'll see condensation building up on the can. Do that same experiment with that same can of beer, but this time place one of those insulative sleeves on the can and leave it on the counter for a half hour and no condensation will you find. Plywood acts like an isulation of sorts. Back to the small piece of sheet metal attached to the small piece of plywood and felt, if you were to place the securely attached pieces in your freezer them remove them and pull the screws, you'll see first hand, that the top of the metal is covered in condensation, because it's exposed to the open air charged with moisture. However, on the backside of that same piece of metal, the portion that is in contact with the felt, will be bone dry! If it can't get exposure to the air, it remains stabilly dry. Fordfarm, I respect your opinions greatly, especially since you have about a thousand more post's than I have here. I'm not trying to insult or dispell any myths, but rather to educate. I am proud of my work, and understand fully the principles at work with respect to my trade. Unquestionably, there is an explaination for everything. Nothing is a mystery, except that we just don't understand what's at play. Scientific data though, is concrete and dispells most myths, and so that's why I offerd the above information and back it up with proof in an experiment that you can actually witness for yourself, because in a properely installed metal roof, even if it did leak, which it wouldn't, if it actually were installed correctly, the moisture hits the tar paper not the homes wood. I offer this info and facts for enlightenment, not as an arguement. This forum to me is all about educating ones self, and having fun while doing it!


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## Fordfarm (Dec 27, 2005)

LIke I said in my previous posts - there are MANY things involved - like number of family members (thus, showers, washing dishes, washing clothes, etc, etc. You actually have to know what all of these variables ARE and HOW THEY WORK TOGETHER before you can determine what is going on. True, all houses (buildings) produce condensation. That's not the point. It's how they get RID of the moisture that counts. Everything you do to your roof, or walls, etc, (plywood, vapor barrier, windows, vents, etc) changes how this is done. I realize - and hope - you are proud of your work. 

Another commonly held belief is that condensation is a "temperature" problem. It is not, it's a "humidity" problem. Temperature is only one player in the process. Change the dynamics of how a house brethes, and you change the condensation. It may not COME from the roof (or whatever you did), but it can be CAUSED by what you did.

The "can of beer" test is just a very simple example of how condesation forms when warm moist, air, hits a cool surface. It does not show what happens to the moisture afterward. 
Like I said every house is different. I can take you to an out building that is open on 3 sides that had a problem with wood rot. The rot was in one corner and nowhere else. SEVERAL people had searched for "the leak" for over a year, to no avail. The problem was condesation, not a leak. 

Like I said if you are proud of what you do, then keep going. 
I am VERY proud of what I used to do and have had this arguement with dozens of builders over the years. 
It's a never-ending story.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Fordfarm said:


> LIke I said in my previous posts - there are MANY things involved - like number of family members (thus, showers, washing dishes, washing clothes, etc, etc. You actually have to know what all of these variables ARE and HOW THEY WORK TOGETHER before you can determine what is going on. True, all houses (buildings) produce condensation. That's not the point. It's how they get RID of the moisture that counts. Everything you do to your roof, or walls, etc, (plywood, vapor barrier, windows, vents, etc) changes how this is done. I realize - and hope - you are proud of your work.
> 
> Another commonly held belief is that condensation is a "temperature" problem. It is not, it's a "humidity" problem. Temperature is only one player in the process. Change the dynamics of how a house brethes, and you change the condensation. It may not COME from the roof (or whatever you did), but it can be CAUSED by what you did.
> 
> ...


 Like I was pointing out. Venting is 99.9% the root cause of the problem where moisture or condensation is at issue. You can have comp roofing, shake roofing even a blue tarp over the roof, but if you don't have adaquate ventilation, problems will arise, and yes, as I said in my previous post, it's air charged with moisture or humidity. But the premise of my point was that the UBC calls for venting of your roof system as described above in my last post. This principle is applied to all homes build for the last 50 years, and properely executed, and providing that you aren't running a dryer or bathroom exhaust into the attic, it's just impossible for there to be the presence of moisture in the roof system. Under a microscope and to a trained eye, the cause isn't the metal, but other underlying issues that both of us mentioned before. But the metal roof system is not the cause or any part of the chain if it's indeed installed "correctly" including the vapor barrier underneath as this is part of the roof system, and that the roofing structure be it trusses or rafters, are properely vented, then there is absolutely no way you can have rot. Scientifically, it's just simply impossible. The roof system is totally isolated from the home via these air spaces I speak of, and they are designed and implimented to illiminate the condensation and moisture, which leads back to my original statement of the fact that a properely vented roof, will illiminate the moisture, if any. All moisture damage is tied back to lack of this all important ventilation. I'd be more than happy to elaborate further about this concept if anyone is not fully understanding this concept as I am a terrible teacher! There are these days, many emerging new schools of thought with respect to controling moisture, and many fly in the face of conventional thought, but the jury is still not out on these building principles, and the added cost's are going to make these new systems hard to sell, and I already find faults with them that engineersw sitting on a piece of paper cannot even begin to grasp, or be concerned with. Yet! Nothing major, just little nuances that will contribute to problems not related to moisture and make for a housewifes increased cleaning down the road. . Also, as a builder, I can effectively tell you that of the dozens of homes I've built, I have encountered boards that were predisposed to rot before they were ever exposed to the elements, as this could be the case with the open shed you speak of. Can you remember specific details of the roof like metal type? Was the roof deck solid ply or was it skip sheeted? Was there a vapor barrier under the metal? In closing, I just wanted to add that with respect to the can of beer......The whole point was to show that open access of a cold surface to the open charged with moisture (humidity) air creates condensation, which creates a problem. The insulation in this example, eleminates the moisture, because it buffers the two different temeratures and creates a "closed cell" which blocks the air from ever reaching the surface in the first place. The example doesn't need to do anything with the jmoisture, because it isn't even there in the first place, which is the same principle of the plywood and felt behind the metal roofing. Even if magically somehow, moisture got behind the metal, and under the felt, which it would not if it were installed correctly, the open air space directly behind the roof sheeting and above the insulation, is going to carry that moisture away and out the peak of the roof. It's just a plain scientific reality, that cannot be denied. I have seen roofs first hand that had rot, one of which even had severely rotton trusses, that had failed mechanically and needed to be replaced. The cause? A dryer vent and bathroom exhaust fans ran into the attic and no vents to speak of. This roof by the way had 3 tab roofing on it. In my experiences, over and over, it's a simple matter of vast introduction of moisture and or lack of venting. Also, I disdagree with you on one point in that humidity causes the accumilation of condensation only "through" vast differences in temperature! If you put metal in a humid environment, it's not going to accumilate moisture condensation, if it's at the same temerature as the air. The surface temperature must be cooler or warmer than the air, citing again, the instance of the car exhaust. When it's warm out, the exhaust won't drip condensation. It only does it when the outside air is cold, and you have the warm exhaust pouring over the cold metal of the tail pipe. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence at all, just using these simple examples to lay down the science of my point. Comp roofing is emmensly popular here in my area, but I have to laugh my butt off, when we get several feet of snow, and people with the comp are suffering from collapsed roofs, or up on the roof shoveling it off! Alright, the sun is shinning and I need to go out and mow some lawn!


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

flman said:


> I would think water could shed under or over metal or shingles just the same. It is all in the installation, and I would consider a metal roof over shingles any day. A tin roof can be easily repaired with a little solder. I would agree that they are not as forgiving as asphalt would be on a bad installation.


Flman, How the heck are you? Haven't heard from you in days. You must be spending all your time on that new mower! Is the wife getting all envious?


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Fordfarm, I just noticed that you're from Nebraska. Do these roofs you speak of have trusses or rafters typically? This is an important factor.


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## Fordfarm (Dec 27, 2005)

Both. I have a barn with both trusses and rafters. It depends on the size of building. Yes, the materials, design, even the pitch of a roof have to be taken into account. 
You're saying the same thing I have been! Yes the shed I was talking about had a GROUND vapor barrier, but that wasn't the cause. It was how the building was situated (LONG story). 
It all still boils down to every building is different, and any mods you make will affect the dymanics of the building, no matter how perfect the install was.

I still can not recommend a metal roof, especially in this part of the country.


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## flman (Mar 23, 2010)

music in a bott said:


> Flman, How the heck are you? Haven't heard from you in days. You must be spending all your time on that new mower! Is the wife getting all envious?


I would have traded spots with you in a minute, had the flu for six days. I think the worst part was setting in the house watching TV. But I did get the mower out today. And no, my wife does not get envious. She is wife number 2 and I had to make sure she was golden before I got myself into a commitment with another crazy lady.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

flman said:


> I would have traded spots with you in a minute, had the flu for six days. I think the worst part was setting in the house watching TV. But I did get the mower out today. And no, my wife does not get envious. She is wife number 2 and I had to make sure she was golden before I got myself into a commitment with another crazy lady.


Whew! TV. That must have been nearly as bad as the flu! Just kidding! Well, I hope you get to feeling better. Like I always say....A little diesel exhaust in the lungs and some grass clippings in the teeth, always make for a great day! Just thought you were ditching us here.


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