# Go Yellow? E85 Flex-Fuel thoughts?



## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

Just got to thinking since my Tahoe has a Flex-Fuel engine already....Anyone have any insight into the current politics, push, trending, acceptance, problems, or anything else related to the E85 Ethanol/Gasoline porduction? It seems from the E85 site that the majority of E85 stations at least in the die-hard oilrich south (with some of the highest fuel prices nationwide) are strictly private military or government installations. Anyone have any current details on this and any industry shifting from an agricultural, political or other perspective? Opinions on anyone using E85 currently?

Thanks!!!!


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

Here is an editorial on this subject published recently.

E85 fuel has big appeal, but do numbers add up? 


Daniel Howes: E85 fuel has big appeal, but do numbers add up?



Detroit's automakers have a new religion. Its colors are maize, as in corn, and good ol' environmental green.

Turbo-charged by the Bush administration's self-evident declaration that "America is addicted to oil," Motown is using newspaper ads, CEO speeches and production plans to build consensus around a new fuel that's not so new.

E85 contains 15 percent gasoline and 85 percent ethanol that can be manufactured right here at home -- as soon as (if?) more people can be persuaded to invest in the infrastructure to make and sell the stuff.

With attacks threatening Saudi oil refineries, Iran rattling the nuclear order, hurricanes pushing gas to $3 a gallon and Detroit's automakers gunning for a competitive edge, E85 is powerfully appealing even if reality is more complicated.

Sure sounds good

The pitch goes like this: E85 would cut carbon dioxide emissions, strengthen national security by reducing dependence on foreign oil, turn fallow fields productive, lower prices at the pump (so long as oil stays above $60 a barrel ) and deliver a beneficial byproduct -- hit Asian rivals where they ain't, for now.

"This is a potent cocktail -- national security types, the farm community, the domestic auto industry, some environmental groups, members of Congress from both parties and the president of the United States," says Ziad Ojakli, Ford Motor Co.'s group vice president for corporate affairs. "I like the odds there."

Agreed. Then add the fact that the growing economies of China and India likely are fundamentally altering global demand for oil. But E85 is no slam dunk.

Of the 170,000 gas stations across the country, according to DaimlerChrysler AG research, only 600 of them have E85 pumps. The fuel is less efficient than gasoline, meaning consumers need to fill up more often to go the same distance.

Changing politics

E85 has to be as much as 30 percent cheaper than gasoline to be viable. That's easy if instability and demand keep oil expensive, but less so if prices ebb because global turmoil subsides or ethanol production ramps up in the United States.

Two things here:

First, if reducing national dependence on Middle East oil is a goal, increasing taxes on gasoline isn't the only way to get there. Gas-electric hybrid vehicles are an option; clean diesel engines are an option; ethanol and bio-fuels distilled from grass to vegetable oil are an option -- and all of them deserve scrutiny.

Second, as much as Detroit rightly sees forces aligning in favor of E85, there's equally powerful evidence suggesting the hometown automakers are making it tougher for themselves to be heard in Washington.

A new report by JPMorgan says plant closings and job cuts by GM, Ford and Chrysler have "weakened" their "ability to shape political outcomes." By 2008, only eight states could be home to major Detroit-based plants. As many as six states -- and their 12 senators -- could see Detroit-owned plants disappear.

Not so easy building consensus for much with those kinds of numbers, but it's worth trying.


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## OleGrandWizard (Jan 9, 2006)

I don't ever see it catching on until there is a better way to process, market and bring it to market on a wider scale. It is good on paper but unless it gets some major government backing, it will be simply a fad...unfortunately for the consumer and the farmer. Better solutions are the hybrids and hydrogen power from what I have read.


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## 911radioman (Jan 18, 2005)

We own a Ford Taurus with the flex fuel capability. Tried it one time... cut the gas mileage in half on it... wasn't worth the cost savings because of the loss of fuel economy.


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## Lamar Holland (Dec 28, 2005)

> _Originally posted by admin _
> [BIt seems from the E85 site that the majority of E85 stations at least in the die-hard oilrich south (with some of the highest fuel prices nationwide) Thanks!!!! [/B]


I'm questioning your statement of highest fuel prices.. In two weekly magazines I get, construction and light and medium truck,, they show Calif, usually as #1 and Ct #2.. Don't know about your area, but here, diesel is at or very near three per gallon , with a hand full of places at 309..and has been a minimum of 40 cents over reg gas for the last 5 years...
Flex fuels and particularly the french fries mix, won't make it here in New England or any area much above interstate 40.. SO these flex fuel, french fries mix has a limited area to work in... The new clean fuel, that is mandatory coming in a few months, has supposedly been tested and will work in the colder climates. The new clean fuel has all but eliminated sulphur., They did have to find an additive that will lubricate pump and injectors taking up the loss of sulphur...


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## OleGrandWizard (Jan 9, 2006)

Lamar, you might be right with CA and CT having the highest prices...I guess it just seems really high with costs of everything else down here in MS and even LA these days. I am sure that everyone is hurting at the pump and those fry fuel guys wont have an impact anytime soon.

:ditto:


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## farmritch (May 31, 2009)

I drive a fleet vehicle as a serviceman in Hospitals N surgury centers and do about 35,000 miles per year
My buddy does the same for another company.
We monitored all our fuel use for 8 months to give a report to my fleet manager at the time we did away with flex fuel vehicles ( yes back when it was 1/2 the cost per gallon ) after that they made them available to all again.
Using chrysler 3.3 V6 Flex engines this was our findings 
Gallon for gallon E85 gives 19.2 less mileage vs. 87 octane with up to 15% alcohol 15/85 vs. 85/15
As a cost per mile then I round off the price if it's not 20% less than regular unledded it's costing the company per mile.
I sit a good idea ? yes
Does it save money? no
and I am sorry to say that my budget will not allow me to spend more per mile for my driving at this time. 

I have a therory, 
I remember back in the early 80's when LPG was the hot & upcoming thing and conversions were popular. The cost was about 1/5 the cost of gasoliene per mile. Yes it takes a big tank as LPG is 4 lbs per gallon of liquid & the BTU per gallon is less also. And where do you put a 80 gallon LP tank?
Then the price skyrocketed. There are places that still use LPG one is the South Carolina Highway patrol. They put 150,000 to 200,000 miles on the cars convert them back to gas then sell them to the smaller town departments and run them another 3 years. 
I also remember when diesel was 1/4 less or more than Gasoliene before all the diesel personal vehicles came around 
Any one remember the Rabbit? We had them in delivery service and they got 52MPG. but at the time were a novelty.
then Dodge,Frod & Chevy says Diesel is the way 2 go. ( yes it is nice for trucks that need the power on the farm & trailer toting.

My therory is any fuel that can be easily put into vehicle service will be sold at the same rate per BTU. 
There fore there is no cheap or cheaper fuel type. they will get you no matter what.

As for electric put a watt meter on the charge line then figure out what you are paying per KWH convert that into dollars per mile you will find that Electric vehicles are no bargan either. The high cost, the high cost of maintence and length of service does not look good




Farmritch


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## funny guy (Sep 8, 2009)

my truck sputters when i run E85 in it but it runs really good with E5 they sell here 
of course it doesn't help it to be a 327 V8 2bbl


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## farmritch (May 31, 2009)

If you do not have the proper jetting your vehicle will not run on E85 thats why the flex vehicles are the only ones made to run it.
In a regular engine it may run too lean & cause issues.
I know a guy who is building carburators for the strip and they work very well.
Also less than 3 bucks for 115 octane vs. 15 to 20 a gallon makes it a good choice for the strip.


Farmritch


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## funny guy (Sep 8, 2009)

farmritch said:


> I drive a fleet vehicle as a serviceman in Hospitals N surgury centers and do about 35,000 miles per year
> My buddy does the same for another company.
> We monitored all our fuel use for 8 months to give a report to my fleet manager at the time we did away with flex fuel vehicles ( yes back when it was 1/2 the cost per gallon ) after that they made them available to all again.
> Using chrysler 3.3 V6 Flex engines this was our findings
> ...



i have a ford ranger it's a 84 model has a Perkins diesel 4 speed manual and slower than a slug but it does turn good mpg's. about 37 highway and 34 city 
and i cut my diesel with kerosene usually 10 gallons of it to 25 gallons of diesel.

i add a little marvel mystery oil four upper cylinder lube and to protect my injector pump. kero is 2.80 a gallon here and diesel is 3.31.

i do notice it is more peppy and starts easier in the cold and it raises the economy just a touch.


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