# IH 3414 gas tractor not starting



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Just when you think all problems are solved... Just replaced the starter and turns over/cranks fine. Background, I had taken apart (I don't know much about engines but...) the Zenith carburetor about 6 mos ago cause it was running poorly. Checked the float valve and all seemed OK. Set the needle valve at recommended position. Overall there was an improvement. No problems but then after not using for many months started up one day then the next just getting solenoid click sound. Long story short finally put the starter armature on a growler and was deemed failing. 

Got a starter replacement installed and started the tractor yesterday, pulled choke out like normal but engine just puttered and did not fully get going while I was tring different positions with the choke there was varying degrees of stronger turnover. Then I tried again with no choke and it started fully up. Dug my trench for a good 2-3 hours then shut it down for the day and refilled the hydraulic fluid (it leaks) and topped off the gas. Tractor is on a slight downhill slope. Today I can't get it started just sputtering. I pulled apart all the fuel lines, blew some/most out with compressed air. Fuel seems to be flowing. I'm thinking that my problem is a fuel related one. 

Note: all pics were from before when carb was removed. Carb not removed now. There is a large screw (see white arrow pic) at the bottom of the carburetor, I don't know what it's for but I loosened it and gas began pouring out. Is it supposed to do that? or is there something wrong with my float? How can I tell if float and needle are working without taking carb off? Any tests I can do? Is it flooded? Thanks much!


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I take a new (clean) piece of hose over fuel inlet. Blow through it...should of course be no resistance. As you're blowing rotate carb upside down (do this over a box if it's apart to catch parts that may fall out). As floats drop you'll feel it shut off airflow.
I have done it with air compressor set at 4-5 psi using rubber tip blow gun.
If it's flooded pull a spark plug. Wet, it's flooded.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> Just when you think all problems are solved... Just replaced the starter and turns over/cranks fine. Background, I had taken apart (I don't know much about engines but...) the Zenith carburetor about 6 mos ago cause it was running poorly. Checked the float valve and all seemed OK. Set the needle valve at recommended position. Overall there was an improvement. No problems but then after not using for many months started up one day then the next just getting solenoid click sound. Long story short finally put the starter armature on a growler and was deemed failing.
> 
> Got a starter replacement installed and started the tractor yesterday, pulled choke out like normal but engine just puttered and did not fully get going while I was tring different positions with the choke there was varying degrees of stronger turnover. Then I tried again with no choke and it started fully up. Dug my trench for a good 2-3 hours then shut it down for the day and refilled the hydraulic fluid (it leaks) and topped off the gas. Tractor is on a slight downhill slope. Today I can't get it started just sputtering. I pulled apart all the fuel lines, blew some/most out with compressed air. Fuel seems to be flowing. I'm thinking that my problem is a fuel related one.
> 
> ...


The bowl nut you have arrowed is a float bowl drain plug and yes fuel will run out when all connected up, you would use this to drain bad fuel if engine was running rough.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I take a new (clean) piece of hose over fuel inlet. Blow through it...should of course be no resistance. As you're blowing rotate carb upside down (do this over a box if it's apart to catch parts that may fall out). As floats drop you'll feel it shut off airflow.
> I have done it with air compressor set at 4-5 psi using rubber tip blow gun.
> If it's flooded pull a spark plug. Wet, it's flooded.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Thanks, the carburetor is still attached. Those pictures were when I did remove (about 6 mo ago) it to clean and inspect. 

Yesterday 2X I disconnected the fuel line and sprayed wd40 into the inlet and then also blew into it (much higher psi though). Did not get any result. Took off the inlet and inspected the float needle, looked OK, sprayed wd40 and reinstalled. Reconnected gas line and tried to start. No go. Read about wet plugs if flooding. I took out the plugs (which I replaced 6 mo ago) and they did look a bit slimy. I hand held (grabbed the rubber boot) one connected to the spark plug wire and cranked the engine and got a shock through me. I guess I was touching something else cause I did not think I would be shocked. Was looking to see if I saw the plug firing/sparking. 

So I guess I am getting a spark, which is good news. Today I will buy a new set of plugs and see what happens. Perhaps that is the main problem of not starting (insufficient spark) Then go from there. When it used to run I always had the issue of the tractor trying to die out at higher rev/acceleration


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> The bowl nut you have arrowed is a float bowl drain plug and yes fuel will run out when all connected up, you would use this to drain bad fuel if engine was running rough.


Got it. Thanks


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

If carb is attached blowing into inlet won't work. When floats rise fuel cuts off, carb has to be off. You can also check floats in a cup of water to be sure they're ok. 
Carb probably just needs taken apart carefully (make notes & pictures), soak clean (Berrymans, etc), blow out passages air compressor, new carb kit.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> If carb is attached blowing into inlet won't work. When floats rise fuel cuts off, carb has to be off. You can also check floats in a cup of water to be sure they're ok.
> Carb probably just needs taken apart carefully (make notes & pictures), soak clean (Berrymans, etc), blow out passages air compressor, new carb kit.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Put new spark plugs in this am. Didn't really do anything. At most I'll get a very slow firing then dies out within a minute. I was hoping the new plus would make the difference. I can't find any blockages. Gas still comes out of the carb bowl nut when removed, so I guess fuel is getting to carburetor. Removed a few plugs after to inspect. One had some residue, didn't have as strong an odor as gas. The other was totally clean.

Yesterday I did remove the fuel pump (not sure if that's correct, see pic )) blew out and reinstalled. *When are you supposed to use the hand primer lever and why? *Also what is it's function as it had a banana shaped part that reaches into the engine. *Could this part have anything to do with the problem? Test?

So you think I need to take the carb apart again, but get a rebuild kit for it?* Man, 2 days ago I was digging my trench for 2-3 hours then the next day no start. Thanks


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

An old car I have fuel pump has hand primer. It's just so if car sits a long time by pumping it fills carb bowl. I almost never have used it.
Fuel pumps you can do a pressure & volume test. Your tractor I'm not sure exact specs but should be close enough:
Disconnect fuel line at carb. Put a pressure gauge on it...most vacuum gauges also check low pressure. Crank on it, pressure should be about 3-5 psi (roughly).
Then gauge off, hold clean jar with fuel line going in & crank. Should be maybe 8 oz. in 10 seconds (roughly).
Me...I'd focus on rebuilding carburetor. Of course they'll work fine then not...could be trash in fuel tank. Some passages are small.


Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> An old car I have fuel pump has hand primer. It's just so if car sits a long time by pumping it fills carb bowl. I almost never have used it.
> Fuel pumps you can do a pressure & volume test. Your tractor I'm not sure exact specs but should be close enough:
> Disconnect fuel line at carb. Put a pressure gauge on it...most vacuum gauges also check low pressure. Crank on it, pressure should be about 3-5 psi (roughly).
> Then gauge off, hold clean jar with fuel line going in & crank. Should be maybe 8 oz. in 10 seconds (roughly).
> ...


When I do hand prime it, I do hear and see gas moving in my in-line fuel filter which feeds it. So being that, I guess a vacuum pressure is being created, I can assume the seals are good and functioning properly? Go on to something else i.e. carb? Thanks!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> An old car I have fuel pump has hand primer. It's just so if car sits a long time by pumping it fills carb bowl. I almost never have used it.
> Fuel pumps you can do a pressure & volume test. Your tractor I'm not sure exact specs but should be close enough:
> Disconnect fuel line at carb. Put a pressure gauge on it...most vacuum gauges also check low pressure. Crank on it, pressure should be about 3-5 psi (roughly).
> Then gauge off, hold clean jar with fuel line going in & crank. Should be maybe 8 oz. in 10 seconds (roughly).
> ...


Since I can't get a rebuild kit until Tue. I just took the carb off and cleaned everything out. Nothing seems clogged. The only thing is that maybe the float needle (with rubber point tip) may have been getting stuck closed under blowing with my mouth through inlet. I pinched of the end of the rubber still leaving a circumference of rubber in place and it seem to seal fine yet easier to back off and open. Re-installed the carb with no improvement. When I unscrewed the bowl nut, gas came out so some gas is definitely getting to the carb. I am having my doubts it's the carb but IDK. *If there was garbage in the tank, wouldn't that prevent gas flow?*

I can go about draining the tank but I always use a funnel that has a filter screen. I pulled off the air filter pipe at top of carb to expose the carb. Tried starting it and no improvement.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

I think it is about time you checked the actual spark for colour, pull the plug lead from any plug and connect to a plug that you removed and replaced, place the plug on a good earth point and have someone crank the engine while you check the spark at the plug electrodes, a blue spark is best, check the ignition points for correct gap and condition of contacts and the condenser, a crook condenser will do what you are experiencing, if you have badly arced contacts, then replace both contacts and condenser, with a good American or British made one.

An old saying, "if you think you have fuel problems, then it may be electrical", because both will give a similar problem and it is easier to check electrical before fuel.

If you can prime the fuel pump with the primer and you get good supply, then the diaphragm and the reed valves are ok, the long banana lever goes against the cam shaft and this gives the pumping action, you have to be sure when inserting the pump that the lever actually goes against the cam lobe, it is easy to place the lever on the wrong side of the cam lobe, that I know.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> I think it is about time you checked the actual spark for colour, pull the plug lead from any plug and connect to a plug that you removed and replaced, place the plug on a good earth point and have someone crank the engine while you check the spark at the plug electrodes, a blue spark is best, check the ignition points for correct gap and condition of contacts and the condenser, a crook condenser will do what you are experiencing, if you have badly arced contacts, then replace both contacts and condenser, with a good American or British made one.
> 
> An old saying, "if you think you have fuel problems, then it may be electrical", because both will give a similar problem and it is easier to check electrical before fuel.
> 
> If you can prime the fuel pump with the primer and you get good supply, then the diaphragm and the reed valves are ok, the long banana lever goes against the cam shaft and this gives the pumping action, you have to be sure when inserting the pump that the lever actually goes against the cam lobe, it is easy to place the lever on the wrong side of the cam lobe, that I know.


I'm going to test the plugs tomorrow like you said. I reset all the new plug gaps to recommended .025 before I installed them. I believe the previous owner ( 6/2020) had recently replaced distributor, rotor and wires. I'll need to google about ignition point gaps, and condenser. My manual says "Distributor Gap : .014" But I'll need to go through it. Good point about fuel pump alignment with cam lobe. I had no idea and just shoved it in. I'll have to remove and try and make sure proper. *When you describe "prime the fuel pump" and "you get good supply" can you expound on that?*
My mechanical pump with hand primer has two hoses/tube going to it. One comes from my gas tank that passes through an in line filter, then goes to the pump. The other leave the pump and goes over to feed the carburetor. *How specifically would I test as you described? Would I disconnect one of the lines somewhere, then hand prime and notice if adequate (?) flow/supply is generated?
Thanks!*


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> I'm going to test the plugs tomorrow like you said. I reset all the new plug gaps to recommended .025 before I installed them. I believe the previous owner ( 6/2020) had recently replaced distributor, rotor and wires. I'll need to google about ignition point gaps, and condenser. My manual says "Distributor Gap : .014" But I'll need to go through it. Good point about fuel pump alignment with cam lobe. I had no idea and just shoved it in. I'll have to remove and try and make sure proper. *When you describe "prime the fuel pump" and "you get good supply" can you expound on that?*
> My mechanical pump with hand primer has two hoses/tube going to it. One comes from my gas tank that passes through an in line filter, then goes to the pump. The other leave the pump and goes over to feed the carburetor. *How specifically would I test as you described? Would I disconnect one of the lines somewhere, then hand prime and notice if adequate (?) flow/supply is generated?
> Thanks!*


Most pump levers had to be inserted through the opening and kept close to the inside of the engine housing, sometimes when the pump lever rested against the cam lobe, you have to push against the pump lever to insert the retaining studs.

To check the pump operation, remove the supply hose from the carby inlet and place into a container and pump the lever and watch the flow, if the flow is a good squirt, then the pump is ok, if only a dribble then possibly a reed valve is stuck, but don't go there yet, you can also hold a finger over the hose end and pump the lever to check pressure as you pump the lever, be careful, can be a bit messy with fuel spray, the fact that the diaphragm is not leaking fuel shows that the diaphragm is ok and the reed valves are also ok when the fuel pump is pumping, maybe I should have said "PRIME the CARBY", I was probably thinking Prime the fuel/injection pump on a diesel engine, sorry, and fuel pump supply is the amount of fuel being supplied to the carby from the pump.

If you are not sure of what I have written, then ask questions again, I'll be happy to answer.


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

If you don't have one, Harbor Freight $12.79 I'd get one. That way you know pump pressure. 
Fred is correct, a weak spark means hard starting & poor performance. 
IF you want to try this (use your judgment...I've done this test for years): an engine with good spark & compression (I assume if it ran well that's ok) doesn't even need a carburetor to run. All you need is starting fluid or carburetor cleaner. Spray some in intake, crank...it should start. Keep it running with spray. That's a quick easy test to be sure carb/fuel related.
Spark with plugs out engine will crank faster since no compression. Plugs on side on a good ground should see a good strong blue spark.
PM me, we can talk on phone better.









Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> Most pump levers had to be inserted through the opening and kept close to the inside of the engine housing, sometimes when the pump lever rested against the cam lobe, you have to push against the pump lever to insert the retaining studs.
> 
> To check the pump operation, remove the supply hose from the carby inlet and place into a container and pump the lever and watch the flow, if the flow is a good squirt, then the pump is ok, if only a dribble then possibly a reed valve is stuck, but don't go there yet, you can also hold a finger over the hose end and pump the lever to check pressure as you pump the lever, be careful, can be a bit messy with fuel spray, the fact that the diaphragm is not leaking fuel shows that the diaphragm is ok and the reed valves are also ok when the fuel pump is pumping, maybe I should have said "PRIME the CARBY", I was probably thinking Prime the fuel/injection pump on a diesel engine, sorry, and fuel pump supply is the amount of fuel being supplied to the carby from the pump.
> 
> If you are not sure of what I have written, then ask questions again, I'll be happy to answer.


I think I got it. When you start a tractor and the starter turns the flywheel, I guess the crankshaft is turning as well and then the mechanical pumps contact with one of the lobe's is sending fuel to the carb? I'll do that flow test too. It certainly is helpful to understand how these things work in conjunction. And not blindly hitting this and pumping that hoping for a positive result. Thanks!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> If you don't have one, Harbor Freight $12.79 I'd get one. That way you know pump pressure.
> Fred is correct, a weak spark means hard starting & poor performance.
> IF you want to try this (use your judgment...I've done this test for years): an engine with good spark & compression (I assume if it ran well that's ok) doesn't even need a carburetor to run. All you need is starting fluid or carburetor cleaner. Spray some in intake, crank...it should start. Keep it running with spray. That's a quick easy test to be sure carb/fuel related.
> Spark with plugs out engine will crank faster since no compression. Plugs on side on a good ground should see a good strong blue spark.
> ...


Thanks for the link. I do have some carb cleaner spray (can is getting a bit low) So if I take the air filter boot off the top of the carb, I would just spray into the top there while it's cranking? And I guess my choke would be off? I watched some YT video today saying starter fluid could damage a gasoline engine? Others said it was fine. I guess your with the later. Thanks! Praying for some good results tomorrow. This down time sucks.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Yes!! lots of things turning when you crank an engine with the starter motor at flywheel attached to the crankshaft, which moves the the pistons to TDC and BTC in their sequence, the crankshaft drives the cam shaft through the timing gears at half time, the camshaft drives the distributor and the valve lifters in time with the pistons and also a mechanical fuel pump if fitted, so yes a lot of things happening in sequence, and the order has to be correct.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> Yes!! lots of things turning when you crank an engine with the starter motor at flywheel attached to the crankshaft, which moves the the pistons to TDC and BTC in their sequence, the crankshaft drives the cam shaft through the timing gears at half time, the camshaft drives the distributor and the valve lifters in time with the pistons and also a mechanical fuel pump if fitted, so yes a lot of things happening in sequence, and the order has to be correct.


Easy cowboy, my brain is flooded. Pretty cool. Gonna take about a week to absorb 😵😅


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> Thanks for the link. I do have some carb cleaner spray (can is getting a bit low) So if I take the air filter boot off the top of the carb, I would just spray into the top there while it's cranking? And I guess my choke would be off? I watched some YT video today saying starter fluid could damage a gasoline engine? Others said it was fine. I guess your with the later. Thanks! Praying for some good results tomorrow. This down time sucks.


You can do test with carb removed...just spray into intake hole where carb was.
If choke is wide open, you can spray a little there, see if it runs. If it starts to die...spray a little more. If it revs up every time you spray you know for sure you have a carburetor problem.
Here's a pretty good YouTube video of engine theory:





Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Ammburbank (Dec 1, 2020)

fuddy1952 said:


> I take a new (clean) piece of hose over fuel inlet. Blow through it...should of course be no resistance. As you're blowing rotate carb upside down (do this over a box if it's apart to catch parts that may fall out). As floats drop you'll feel it shut off airflow.
> I have done it with air compressor set at 4-5 psi using rubber tip blow gun.
> If it's flooded pull a spark plug. Wet, it's flooded.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk




Ok I’ve had that ole 3414 for a while! I’ve worked on just about every issue you can think of with this thing! 

First off let me tell you that a Jeep carb can be bought new for around $80 to replace that zenith. There’s not any replacements to be had really. There was a guy selling his own modeled carb and is on mine. Turned out the quality is crap! You can rebuild them but again it’s about the same as a new Jeep carb. 

Do yourself a favor and bypass that mechanical pump and just install an electric pump. 3-4 lb universal. Saves future headaches. 

If yours is converted to 12 volt. Check your resistor to the coil. If good check you’ve got fire going to the plugs. It could be a condenser or the points need filed. If there is good fire to the plugs. No need to look further right there. Whoever said replace plugs just cost you $. Hell this thing will chug over and run on one good plug. Ask me how I know🤣. 

Now if were are back to the carb issue. Take the fuel line off where it feeds the bowl. Hang it over the side or stick it in a clean glass bottle. Crank the tractor over. See if it’s pumping. If so then it’s the carb. 

Now take the top of the carb off. Connect the fuel line. Have someone crank the tractor o we while you press down on the U Spring that holds down the float. See how far the bowl fills up before the needle shuts off the fuel flow. This is time to set the fuel float and fuel level in the carb by bending the tang on the float. This is a repetitive process of removing fuel, cranking the tractor over and checking fuel level. 

Make sure before you do any of this that the brass fittings that screw in behind the needle are tight and seated. 

Now with the fuel level set there should be no overflow and flooding issues. It’s time to set the carb. Truly I forget the exact process but it’s on the web. 

There is a fuel air mixture on the bottom. Likely won’t need to adjust this right away. There’s also a T handle adjuster. Yours might not be a t but it’s facing the tanks and on top. Screw in then back out 2 1/4 turns. It should fire right up. From there this screw can be adjusted to meter the fuel. 


This is brief and a quick, crude and poor attempt to help you get her going again. I know how it feels to be at a loss. Good luck buddy I hope Ive helped a little!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> You can do test with carb removed...just spray into intake hole where carb was.
> If choke is wide open, you can spray a little there, see if it runs. If it starts to die...spray a little more. If it revs up every time you spray you know for sure you have a carburetor problem.
> Here's a pretty good YouTube video of engine theory:
> 
> ...


I never hit the post reply last night! Looking forward to watching that video tomorrow. I think it will help gel things together. Will try the starter fluid test too. Thanks 👍


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Ammburbank said:


> Ok I’ve had that ole 3414 for a while! I’ve worked on just about every issue you can think of with this thing!
> 
> First off let me tell you that a Jeep carb can be bought new for around $80 to replace that zenith. There’s not any replacements to be had really. There was a guy selling his own modeled carb and is on mine. Turned out the quality is crap! You can rebuild them but again it’s about the same as a new Jeep carb.
> 
> ...


Great. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> Most pump levers had to be inserted through the opening and kept close to the inside of the engine housing, sometimes when the pump lever rested against the cam lobe, you have to push against the pump lever to insert the retaining studs.
> 
> To check the pump operation, remove the supply hose from the carby inlet and place into a container and pump the lever and watch the flow, if the flow is a good squirt, then the pump is ok, if only a dribble then possibly a reed valve is stuck, but don't go there yet, you can also hold a finger over the hose end and pump the lever to check pressure as you pump the lever, be careful, can be a bit messy with fuel spray, the fact that the diaphragm is not leaking fuel shows that the diaphragm is ok and the reed valves are also ok when the fuel pump is pumping, maybe I should have said "PRIME the CARBY", I was probably thinking Prime the fuel/injection pump on a diesel engine, sorry, and fuel pump supply is the amount of fuel being supplied to the carby from the pump.
> 
> If you are not sure of what I have written, then ask questions again, I'll be happy to answer.


What do you think ? Good enough flow? Thanks


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> I think it is about time you checked the actual spark for colour, pull the plug lead from any plug and connect to a plug that you removed and replaced, place the plug on a good earth point and have someone crank the engine while you check the spark at the plug electrodes, a blue spark is best, check the ignition points for correct gap and condition of contacts and the condenser, a crook condenser will do what you are experiencing, if you have badly arced contacts, then replace both contacts and condenser, with a good American or British made one.
> 
> An old saying, "if you think you have fuel problems, then it may be electrical", because both will give a similar problem and it is easier to check electrical before fuel.
> 
> If you can prime the fuel pump with the primer and you get good supply, then the diaphragm and the reed valves are ok, the long banana lever goes against the cam shaft and this gives the pumping action, you have to be sure when inserting the pump that the lever actually goes against the cam lobe, it is easy to place the lever on the wrong side of the cam lobe, that I know.


It's kind of hard to tell. But it doesn't appear or sound very strong to me. What do you think?


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> It's kind of hard to tell. But it doesn't appear or sound very strong to me. What do you think?


I'm sorry, I cannot see any spark at all, and I have run the video a few times, in the morning, I will see if I can darken the video some, that may help.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> What do you think ? Good enough flow? Thanks


That output is between good and bad, did you try the primer lever to see what the output was like?, did you pace a finger over the outlet house to feel the pump pulse and if the pulse could lift your finger and pass fuel through?.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> I'm sorry, I cannot see any spark at all, and I have run the video a few times, in the morning, I will see if I can darken the video some, that may help.


just one spark about 4 seconds into the video


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> That output is between good and bad, did you try the primer lever to see what the output was like?, did you pace a finger over the outlet house to feel the pump pulse and if the pulse could lift your finger and pass fuel through?.


No. I fugured if the crankshaft was working the pump properly (my video) then I did not need to do hand primer lever. RE outlet hose, you mean the same end as I show in the vid before going into carby?


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> That output is between good and bad, did you try the primer lever to see what the output was like?, did you pace a finger over the outlet house to feel the pump pulse and if the pulse could lift your finger and pass fuel through?.


OK, I held my finger on that hose end and hand primed it. Good pressure and would spray past my finger but not holding it super tight


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> No. I fugured if the crankshaft was working the pump properly (my video) then I did not need to do hand primer lever. RE outlet hose, you mean the same end as I show in the vid before going into carby?


yes, -- and the fuel pump seems to be working, but I expected enough fuel to fill the end of the hose as it was ejected, and placing a finger over the end would let you feel how strong the pulse was.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

That is good then, we can rule out the pump being the problem, I still say ignition problem.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> You can do test with carb removed...just spray into intake hole where carb was.
> If choke is wide open, you can spray a little there, see if it runs. If it starts to die...spray a little more. If it revs up every time you spray you know for sure you have a carburetor problem.
> Here's a pretty good YouTube video of engine theory:
> 
> ...


Great video. watched the carb one too. MUCH better understanding now. I sprayed some carb cleaner into the top of the carb (in place with air hose off) and did not kick over. I kept spraying, but not a huge amount of spray was going in due to can being low. Did not do much. Should I try again with fresh batch/can of the same? Thinking might be spark related. See my videos. Thanks!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Give me a break. I found some of my old (but new) Champ L90C plugs that I did not realize I had and wanted to see what the spark was like on that vs the NGK ones I just picked up (not realizing I had 4 more of the old, discontinued now) And now I just hear a clank from the starter. Like its trying to turn the flywheel but can't. I have been cranking often and battery may be getting low. This is a new starter. Was working fine 5 min ago. Any clues? Pissed spent 4-5 days with the starter issue, had old (1954) Lucas model. Continued help appreciated!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Battery voltage is 12.28. Is that too low? I am hoping something simple like that otherwise I want to cry


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Went back out and it cranked a few times then stopped. I'm more hopeful now 🙏. I have it hooked up to the charger. Since I can't crank it (I do have a multi meter) maybe I will just pull the distrubutor. and check points, rotor etc. The previous owner left me with a new spare rotor. I hooked up my multi meter to the coil with everything wired and no key on and got a 2.7 ohm read across += posts.


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Don't pull distributor yet!!!!!

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Don't pull distributor yet!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Why? I have disconnected the coil. The center coil wire going to the distributor looks a bit oily at the end. Is that a problem? Disconnected it read 3.7 ohms across +=. Was about to pop open the distributor the checked my phone saw your message. I've disconnected all the wires at the plugs. What's the issue? Thx


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Don't pull distributor yet!!!!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Hey Fuddy, If you can give me a quick reason. I'm dead in the water and I was going to check out the system anyways. Why not? Thx


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I'm leaning towards spark now.
Fuel pump video seems sufficient fuel.
As long as float is OK and shutting off properly I wouldn't mess with it, adjustments, etc.
If it didn't fire off with starting fluid or carburetor cleaner I'd focus on spark.
No need pulling distributor...it was running before.
Keep battery charger on it. (Should be around 12.7v charger off.).
Did you replace points & condenser with quality ones? Set gap correctly.
Here's an easy spark check: (Note: you don't want key on, points closed more than a few seconds...it burns points up). You'll need a small insulated stick, wood,plastic & Multimeter. 
I assume it's 12v, negative ground. 
Key off position. Do NOT crank...
1) meter black neg. lead on good ground. 
2) points closed
3) key on...measure both +&-- on coil...should be around 9v + side, 0v -- (distributor) side.
4) key off
5) pull center lead off of distributor that goes to coil.
6) connect spark plug to end, plug laying on ground. So coil tower high voltage wire to spark plug on it's side grounded. 
7) key on...open points with stick. Plug should fire. Each time you release, points close, open the plug should spark (strong blue spark....pop-pop-pop!
Now everything back together, last test meter + red lead to coil +. Points closed, key on. What's the voltage (should be about 9v)...crank on it. That should be same as battery + voltage while cranking. 
For proper spark you need good points & condenser, good coil, proper power going to coil +, good plugs & plug wires.
With key off, Multimeter on resistance Rx1 scale you should have close to zero ohms with points closed from ground to coil -- side.





Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I'll read what you wrote...but if it was running fine, pulling distributor there's no purpose and you'll most likely get timing off...no purpose pulling it.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I wouldn't worry about a little oily...while checking resistance check coil & each plug wire one at a time, making sure they're ok, pull-check-replace. That's making sure you're keeping firing order as it's supposed to be.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I'm leaning towards spark now.
> Fuel pump video seems sufficient fuel.
> As long as float is OK and shutting off properly I wouldn't mess with it, adjustments, etc.
> If it didn't fire off with starting fluid or carburetor cleaner I'd focus on spark.
> ...


Thanks but this is over my head right now. I was about to just pop the top of the distributor when I got your message. So OK to pop the top and inspect points (I've never done this before) I have to google condenser. I have not replaced anything yet, just spark plugs. So I'll move forward on popping the top and inspect. I'll just take my meter to read continuity for each wire to inspect them. Try and make sense of points. I don't have any (other than a new rotor) parts yet if I need new things.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I'll read what you wrote...but if it was running fine, pulling distributor there's no purpose and you'll most likely get timing off...no purpose pulling it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


When you say "pulling it" do you mean popping the top off? I will screw up the timing if I pop off the top and inspect the points and rotor? I am trying to solve the tractor not starting and seems like a weak spark, but what do I know? You did ask me if I inspected the points. by doing so (which I havent) I'll screw up the timing? I'm confused


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> When you say "pulling it" do you mean popping the top off? I will screw up the timing if I pop off the top and inspect the points and rotor? I am trying to solve the tractor not starting and seems like a weak spark, but what do I know? You did ask me if I inspected the points. by doing so (which I havent) I'll screw up the timing? I'm confused


PM sent...

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> When you say "pulling it" do you mean popping the top off? I will screw up the timing if I pop off the top and inspect the points and rotor? I am trying to solve the tractor not starting and seems like a weak spark, but what do I know? You did ask me if I inspected the points. by doing so (which I havent) I'll screw up the timing? I'm confused


Pull means remove distributor which you don't want to do. Call me...

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Pull means remove distributor which you don't want to do. Call me...
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I wouldn't worry about a little oily...while checking resistance check coil & each plug wire one at a time, making sure they're ok, pull-check-replace. That's making sure you're keeping firing order as it's supposed to be.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Thanks again for your time yesterday. I ended up ordering from Steiner (express delivery $$$) new set of points, condenser, rotor that looks identical to mine. And also a new 12v coil. Doing some further meter testing I see that my coil is reading about 3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary. From what I can tell those #'s sound fine. But it did have some oil in the distributor lead wire socket. Then put the condenser on the meter neg on the wire and pos on the casing. I got a reading that continually increased. I saw on YT that that might indicate it's good. Now I'm a bit worried that these are good. The rotor looked in decent shape. I did look more closely at the points and see some corrosion on each mating part. *Could this cause a problem?* I'm temped to file/sand off to a fresh surface and re-install and see if tractor has improvement in starting.* Do you think it's worth the time or just wait for my new parts?*

Additionally I see the specs on the new coil I'm getting is rated a bit lower than mine at 3.1/9.6K.*Should that still be OK for my tractor?* Thanks! *







*


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> Thanks again for your time yesterday. I ended up ordering from Steiner (express delivery $$$) new set of points, condenser, rotor that looks identical to mine. And also a new 12v coil. Doing some further meter testing I see that my coil is reading about 3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary. From what I can tell those #'s sound fine. But it did have some oil in the distributor lead wire socket. Then put the condenser on the meter neg on the wire and pos on the casing. I got a reading that continually increased. I saw on YT that that might indicate it's good. Now I'm a bit worried that these are good. The rotor looked in decent shape. I did look more closely at the points and see some corrosion on each mating part. *Could this cause a problem?* I'm temped to file/sand off to a fresh surface and re-install and see if tractor has improvement in starting.* Do you think it's worth the time or just wait for my new parts?*
> 
> Additionally I see the specs on the new coil I'm getting is rated a bit lower than mine at 3.1/9.6K.*Should that still be OK for my tractor?* Thanks! *
> View attachment 80282
> *


No wonder the engine wouldn't start, thats the problem right there, see if you can clean up both contacts and give her a go, you will be able to file the faces, but the movable contact is fairly had it, you will need to replace the contact set and condenser.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> No wonder the engine wouldn't start, thats the problem right there, see if you can clean up both contacts and give her a go, you will be able to file the faces, but the movable contact is fairly had it, you will need to replace the contact set and condenser.


Good to know. So the spark might be weakened due to the compromised contacts. We'll see I might just wait till the new parts come in depending on available time. Thanks


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I don't think I've ever seen points that bad! The depression on the ground side also means condenser is bad. If you can wait, I would. 
The coil winding ratio is 100:1, so ("3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary") that means 3.5 ohms primary is about right, secondary would measure in the thousands of ohms. From + or -- to center tower 5K (5,000) ohms or so is more normal.
It gets confusing since you're measuring resistance not impedance.
I'm amazed it ran at all.
Me... I'd wait for new parts if you can. While waiting I'd trace that + wire back, one you disconnected from coil + side. See if it goes to a ballast resistor (some things use a ballast wire). If it doesn't have one (wire simply goes to 12v power with key on) then be SURE you get a new coil with internal ballast. Otherwise you'll fry your new points.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I don't think I've ever seen points that bad! The depression on the ground side also means condenser is bad. If you can wait, I would.
> The coil winding ratio is 100:1, so ("3.5 ohms on the primary and 10.56 ohms on the secondary") that means 3.5 ohms primary is about right, secondary would measure in the thousands of ohms. From + or -- to center tower 5K (5,000) ohms or so is more normal.
> It gets confusing since you're measuring resistance not impedance.
> I'm amazed it ran at all.
> ...


Maybe there is a worst set of points award. No resistors. The new coil states "Internally Resisted" so I hope that is the same as Internal Ballast On average, does it take a lot of hitting the starter to have one of the distributor 4 square corner lobes to align with points to be able to set the gap? Thanks!


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> Maybe there is a worst set of points award. No resistors. The new coil states "Internally Resisted" so I hope that is the same as Internal Ballast On average, does it take a lot of hitting the starter to have one of the distributor 4 square corner lobes to align with points to be able to set the gap? Thanks!


 Sounds great. New points, condenser, coil (yes...it's the correct one)...you're all set.
Here's what I'd try (if you can do it carefully):
1) battery disconnected 
2) all 4 spark plugs out
You should be able to turn motor over easily by hand. Different ways to do it if you have room...a strap wrench around crankshaft pulley, socket & ratchet inside pulley on center nut. 
If you're unable turning motor over by hand leave plugs out...install condenser & points. Then "bump" starter...crank a split second. A helper would be best while you watch points.
Stop when points rubbing block is on peak of a distributor lobe. Set gap.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Sounds great. New points, condenser, coil (yes...it's the correct one)...you're all set.
> Here's what I'd try (if you can do it carefully):
> 1) battery disconnected
> 2) all 4 spark plugs out
> ...


Good. There is a large shaft coming out of that lower pulley. Front of shaft inaccessible and probably behind front end weights. But if that shaft turns the crankcase then I probably can get a pipe wrench around (see white arrow) it and turn it. Thanks!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

LOL. This is something I was always curious about. And now with some new engine learning going on and all. My exhaust manifold has always had this indentation/HOLE in it towards the top. Whereas in my manual it shows a picture with a solid section and some casted #'s. Does my manifold have a hole in it? It almost appears to be molded that way. But now, knowing more than I did a couple of weeks ago. Isn't this where the fuel/air mix gets sucked out of my carburetor then it gets distributed to each of the 4 cylinders? If this hole is not intended, couldn't this put a wrench, so to speak, in the whole fuel/air thing? My engine would always want to lose power when I would greatly increase the accelerator. How exactly does this manifold design supposed to function? Upper section for fuel/air distribution and side/lower for exhaust? Thanks!


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Use the pipe wrench as a last resort, you will damage the hydraulic pump drive shaft, there are about 5 studs that hold the drive plate to the front pulley, use a tyre lever or large screw driver between the each stud and the drive hub and lever downwards, there should be a timing pointer on the other side and a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, rotate the engine until the marks line up, this will have both #1 and #4 pistons at top dead center, set the contacts at just opening, we used a cigarette paper to feel the contacts opening.

The timing pointer on the timing case may have a few graduation marks, if so, you will need to rotate the pulley until the pulley mark aligns with the last mark on the timing pointer, this will give you top dead center for setting the contacts, and all of the rotation of the crankshaft pulley is done in a clockwise manner.

And then again, you may have the timing marks on the flywheel, in that case you may have to remove the starter to locate these or there may be a cover on the flywheel housing that you can shift to expose the markings.

So with that, this cowboy will leave you with that info and will ride off into the sunset.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> LOL. This is something I was always curious about. And now with some new engine learning going on and all. My exhaust manifold has always had this indentation/HOLE in it towards the top. Whereas in my manual it shows a picture with a solid section and some casted #'s. Does my manifold have a hole in it? It almost appears to be molded that way. But now, knowing more than I did a couple of weeks ago. Isn't this where the fuel/air mix gets sucked out of my carburetor then it gets distributed to each of the 4 cylinders? If this hole is not intended, couldn't this put a wrench, so to speak, in the whole fuel/air thing? My engine would always want to lose power when I would greatly increase the accelerator. How exactly does this manifold design supposed to function? Upper section for fuel/air distribution and side/lower for exhaust? Thanks!
> View attachment 80292
> View attachment 80293
> View attachment 80294













I thought I had better ride back and comment on your last photo of the manifold, if that is a hole where I have that blue pointer aimed at, then you have big trouble, that part of the exhaust manifold has had it, another reason your engine will be playing up with the exhaust gas heating the inlet manifold, (you can see the black soot mark going up the inlet manifold towards the carby and to the right in the photo) this will cause fuel evaporation and make the engine lose power as you commented on in a previous post.

I think you should begin to look for a replacement manifold, you may be able to get the old one repaired, you may be able to do a temporary repair with exhaust manifold gunk, but I can see a repair of the left hand end and the actual exhaust manifold section doesn't look that great overall, sorry for the bad news, something you didn't need to hear right now.

Yes you are correct with your question, the upper section is the inlet manifold where the engine draws in the fuel/air mixture to the cylinders, and the lower manifold is for the exhaust gases to leave the cylinders and be exhausted safely .

Something else to consider with that opening in the exhaust manifold, should the carby leak fuel there with the engine running, then you will have a fire that you most likely will not see if you are using the backhoe until it is too late to fight it, just a thought for you.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> View attachment 80295
> 
> 
> Use the pipe wrench as a last resort, you will damage the hydraulic pump drive shaft, there are about 5 studs that hold the drive plate to the front pulley, use a tyre lever or large screw driver between the each stud and the drive hub and lever downwards, there should be a timing pointer on the other side and a timing mark on the crankshaft pulley, rotate the engine until the marks line up, this will have both #1 and #4 pistons at top dead center, set the contacts at just opening, we used a cigarette paper to feel the contacts opening.
> ...


Thanks for the info here, really appreciate it! Enjoy the ride!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> View attachment 80297
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was a short ride. But what else would a caring Cowboy do? Yeah that hole looks too ragged to be intentional. Tomorrow I'll get up in there and really inspect it. I like the temp repair route. I consider not so critical as I've gotten and hopefully will continue to get jobs around the homestead done with it. Thanks again and enjoy!


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> Thanks for the info here, really appreciate it! Enjoy the ride!


Geez!!, disregard that post, well a certain amount of it, sorry what I wrote was for timing the distributor.

All you need to do to set the point gap is to set the cam lobe on the distributor shaft inline with the contact set rubbing block lifter and adjust the opening.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> Geez!!, disregard that post, well a certain amount of it, sorry what I wrote was for timing the distributor.
> 
> All you need to do to set the point gap is to set the cam lobe on the distributor shaft inline with the contact set rubbing block lifter and adjust the opening.


I still might use long screw driver approach against those pulley nuts to turn the crankshaft for lobe position. If not then like @fuddy1952 said, to just bump the starter a few times. Thanks!


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Wow...yes you need to address that manifold hole next. Replacement or repair, either way it needs to be removed. Most likely cast iron which takes special skills welding. 
See if you can find a good/used replacement somewhere. You'll need exhaust gasket also.
By looking at picture it may be (how can I explain?) It may be a heat "riser" going up to intake to heat intake in which case removal isn't necessary...it could be rigged possibly by cutting that piece off then sealing it (metal band bent/fabricated) sealed so exhaust doesn't leak.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Wow...yes you need to address that manifold hole next. Replacement or repair, either way it needs to be removed. Most likely cast iron which takes special skills welding.
> See if you can find a good/used replacement somewhere. You'll need exhaust gasket also.
> By looking at picture it may be (how can I explain?) It may be a heat "riser" going up to intake to heat intake in which case removal isn't necessary...it could be rigged possibly by cutting that piece off then sealing it (metal band bent/fabricated) sealed so exhaust doesn't leak.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Very interesting! The "hanging chad" does look like the end of a control lever for a heat riser. Not common at all for this model. But maybe original was in a cold climate??? When there is a little more daylight I'll have a closer look. *Either way, you shouldn't feel any exhaust coming out of that hole?* When the tractor does start, it gets the job done. But definitely with running issues. I'm OK with that. Thanks!


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I'm with Fredm on the temporary fix. If you cleaned up that hole area, then make a metal patch plate, JB Weld it over, then wire or hose clamp it on...at least it's better than now and may hold until you find a manifold.









Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I'm with Fredm on the temporary fix. If you cleaned up that hole area, then make a metal patch plate, JB Weld it over, then wire or hose clamp it on...at least it's better than now and may hold until you find a manifold.
> View attachment 80303
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


That's funny, I just got back from Napa to get a new oil filter and some oil. I also picked up 2 of the exact item. Except I paid $12.77 ea. I am noticing that Napa is not competitive at all, for things I've been purchasing lately. Thanks and will do.


----------



## MEL NANCE (Sep 26, 2018)

Just tuned in thought I'd add a little to the excellent advise you've received from other members , I noticed in your video it appears your coil is giving you a good spark but based on the looks of the points it's probably not firing every time and may be out of time because of incorrect gap .I recommend replacing points and condenser as planned but not the coil unless necessary, if your system has an external resistor its purpose is to drop the voltage applied to the coil after "starting" the original coil is probably a 6 volt coil, during starting "only" the resistor is bypassed resulting in 12 volts being applied directly to the coil giving you a hotter spark . I would also inspect the dist. cap for cracks, burned contacts, and the carbon button that makes contact with r button. When installing the cap make sure it properly locks in the notch on the dist. Good luck


----------



## JB Freeman (9 mo ago)

You’ll need to use Starter spray not Carburetor cleaner to spray into the intake to test if it’s an electrical problem or carburetor problem. Remove the air cleaner cover. Spray about 1 second of Starter spray into the intake and crank engine over. Leave the Chock open when cranking engine over. If engine starts up and then dies it’s a carburetor problem. You can verify this by repeating the spray for 2 seconds. If it starts again and runs a little longer it’s definitely a carburetor/fuel problem. If it does NOT fire off and run at all with Starter spray, it’s an ignition/electrical problem. Hope this helps


----------



## Ammburbank (Dec 1, 2020)

I know this reply isn’t going to go over well but it’s solid advice. Your problem was basically answered in the beginning posts. Now it’s great there’s so many chiming in and your able to pick and choose which to sort of hand hold you through this basic problem. Yes basic! It’s an old points carb machine. Get used to filing and gaping points. Condensers go out regularly and these ole resisted coils don’t kast long. With ethanol gas neither does the carbs! 

It’s kind of clear you really don’t have much if any experience with engines or at least older types. NOT a bad thing! We all learn and have starting points! 

Now none of this is meant to offend you! Although I’m sure I already have! I don’t know a nicer way to reply other than straight out and straight forward! 

This particular machine is notorious for having issue after issue. They are great hard working machines that you just have to wrench on them constantly! If IF you can keep it running and know how to fabricate parts nowadays. 

A lot of the stuff you just can’t purchase for it anymore! You have to find substitutes and or fabricate parts. There’s not much of any information on them out there. Not many old codgers left to pick their brains either. 

Now I’m trying my best to help you! Again.. Not offend you! Do yourself a favor and sell that machine when it’s running good again! 

You were lucky and had some hand holding through this one. That’s great! I guarantee you you won’t have it when you start having hydraulic issues! You WILL have them! I guarantee it! Simply because not many remember this type machine and it’s sort of unique.. plus there’s not any info to be had! I think me and one other gent on YT basically own the title for posts on the 3414 there. Between him and I we’ve discussed and dealt just about every 3414 issue there is. From diverter valves, hydraulic banks, pumps, carbs, clutches, ignition, and anything engine related. 

Look I get your gonna be like every other guy. It’s your machine and your decision. Why in the hell listen to a random guy on the net. You got this! Right? 

Save yourself some money and time. If your not that guy that loves to pour money and wrench time at things. With you saying this is over your head! Welll.... unless you have a well stocked shop. A machine shop. Can fabricate your own items. Etc. I would consider trading or selling this one off. 

This is just solid advice and nothing more. Maybe it will last for ya! 😏

Good luck my friend! I’m sure you will find one of my fazzillion Posts over at YT. Sadly I just don’t have time to post on these boards much anymore. I’m sure if you keep that machine eventually you’ll find either the other gent or me again. That is if he even still frequents the forums. 

I still have my old 3414 only because if put so much time and effort into it. I hate that damn thing! LOL. I would sell it but I just can’t put that headache on another man with a clear conscious! 

Again good luck!


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Sorry, I need to read through everyone's comments tonight. I put new coil, plugs, condenser, points and rotor. So wanted to give a quick update: 'Ol Betsy got some spark in her and she's fired up! Been digging my trench (54" deep) today for about 4 hours straight. Some issues, main thing is the hydraulic leaks. Need to stop about every half hour cause I feel hydraulics losing power and re-fill. But other than stalling once or twice, I was able to start again 🙏 🙏 🙏 but had to use the choke?? She's getting the job done. Thanks again everyone!








I'll respond more later


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Wow! You did it and congratulations! Thanks for posting about it. 
Everyone's different. If you don't mind working on it and fixing things as you go along I think it's great.
If you need a dependable tractor & use it a lot I'd consider trading or selling it, buying new or fairly new.
Good job!

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Ammburbank said:


> I know this reply isn’t going to go over well but it’s solid advice. Your problem was basically answered in the beginning posts. Now it’s great there’s so many chiming in and your able to pick and choose which to sort of hand hold you through this basic problem. Yes basic! It’s an old points carb machine. Get used to filing and gaping points. Condensers go out regularly and these ole resisted coils don’t kast long. With ethanol gas neither does the carbs!
> 
> It’s kind of clear you really don’t have much if any experience with engines or at least older types. NOT a bad thing! We all learn and have starting points!
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. Luckily the things I've needed, while not necessarily original, has been readily available. It's not my intention to keep this tractor forever and restore her. She's a tool and has been a great value to me for countless things on my property renovation. I paid 5K delivered when I bought it a couple of years ago. In my mind, I have already recouped my investment. And I wouldn't be surprised if I got a good chunk of that money back if I were to sell her. Be great if you can post a YT link of one of those that you referred to. Always interested in learning more.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Wow! You did it and congratulations! Thanks for posting about it.
> Everyone's different. If you don't mind working on it and fixing things as you go along I think it's great.
> If you need a dependable tractor & use it a lot I'd consider trading or selling it, buying new or fairly new.
> Good job!
> ...


With a little help from my friends. Thanks! I can't say I use it a lot, only for certain projects that come up. But having a tractor like this with some attachments (bucket fork attachment etc) there just many things to help not break my back and get a job done. But probably a newer joy stick control would be a plus over 4 separate backhoe controls. It is frustrating when you are set to do a project and you get thrown a curve. But you get past it hopefully and I've learned some useful basic stuff in the process.


----------



## michaelnwca (Jun 26, 2019)

One of my neighbors had one of these, I used it for a day (borrowed) and gave it back. My Kioti 2610 might have been slower/smaller, but, was able to get to places it could not. Another neighbor wanted to buy it, I advised against it, he bought it anyways. Just sat for years and years now.

Sometimes a tractor you own that isn't new is more doable than one you can't afford. Glad its working for you.


----------



## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

Ammburbank said:


> I know this reply isn’t going to go over well but it’s solid advice. Your problem was basically answered in the beginning posts. Now it’s great there’s so many chiming in and your able to pick and choose which to sort of hand hold you through this basic problem. Yes basic! It’s an old points carb machine. Get used to filing and gaping points. Condensers go out regularly and these ole resisted coils don’t kast long. With ethanol gas neither does the carbs!


We used those technologies for years and had no problem. Keep the dust from the points and they will last for hundreds of hours. Drain the gas from the carburetor when it's going to sit and you will have no problem either. Never had a coil fail either.


----------



## bill0742 (Jun 17, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> That's funny, I just got back from Napa to get a new oil filter and some oil. I also picked up 2 of the exact item. Except I paid $12.77 ea. I am noticing that Napa is not competitive at all, for things I've been purchasing lately. Thanks and will do.


They may he more expensive than Amazon, but, they have a great inventory usually on hand. I prefer to pay extra for immediate availability.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Warning TLTR : 'Ol Betsy's bucking for a separation. Well the next day after running pretty good for 4 hrs of trench digging, started up to resume and started up no problem but running rough under backhoe load, coughing, backfire etc. Played with different choke and throttle (Governor control lever, it has a foot accelerator pedal too) not any good combo's that would improve the performance. *Then after 10min or so would want to stall. But pull choke wide open and get a little spurt, then dies. Wait a few minutes start up, runs for 5-10min, stalls. 3rd time again the same.* I re-set the points gap (which the replacement set (identical from what was there) had come with two plastic washers. No instructions. I threw them under the adj contact mounting plate screws. Not one of my best decisions but it was raining at the time. Long story short I realized those washers were to raise the fixed contact in better alignment and ease of pivot movement. So when I re-gapped the points I put a suitable plastic washer under and the point contact better aligned. Started up again and same issue, run for 5 min or so then dies out.

I'm sure this probably is as painful an effort to read through all this as it is for me to write it... Started the fuel diagnosis again. Opened the top of carb and hand primed, good squirting action, float rises nicely, Pulled the float needle and inspected for operation (there is a lot more to include about this part but not going to go there now, but may have to at some point 🤪) With hand blowing through inlet needle seemed to seat/unseat as required(?) but don't know of a test to actually see the whole process of float operation including gas. Replaced some rubber gas lines (in out in-line filter) Emptied gas tank and yes there is some junk at the bottom. Got some out., no instruction I see how to remove the tank. Looking at it and don't see how it wouldn't be major to do so. Got all my gas lines together, blew out everything, re-installed the glass bowl fuel restrainer that comes off the bottom of the tank (which I cleaned the screen) used the cork gasket and started to put some gas in the tank. Fuel strainer was leaking now and couldn't get it to stop. This morning removed the strainer and cork gasket looks shot. Good news is that TSC looks like they may stock the screen/gasket. Just need to verify size. Decided to replace my hydraulic filter and am waiting now for Napa driver to get back with it. Then, outside of some junk at the bottom of my tank, hopefully I can re-button up my fuel line and fill up the tank. I've purchased a spark tester light to go through that process again. I'll check for spark and start (hopefully) the tractor again to see how she runs. I did patch the whole in my manifold.

*Is there a way I can do a test to see if my carb float and needle is performing properly while it is still attached to my tractor?

I get what my Governor is supposed to do, but how can I check to see if the linkage needs adjusting? *When I push up my dash Governor control lever all the way up (while engine is off) I don't see any movement in my throttle at the carb. Also the lever always wants to spring back down to less than 1/2 way open. In fact when tractor is running I can't push up the lever and have it stick/stay at the higher level. *Is this normal?*

Thanks!


----------



## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

Don't screw with the governor. We have two variables with which to work. The backfire sounds like a spark time issue but the shutdown maybe lack of fuel which could sometimes cause a backfire. We need to focus on one or the other. 

If it were me I would make sure the firing is working as it is supposed to. I assume you changed the condenser when you put new points in.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

John Liebermann said:


> Don't screw with the governor. We have two variables with which to work. The backfire sounds like a spark time issue but the shutdown maybe lack of fuel which could sometimes cause a backfire. We need to focus on one or the other.
> 
> If it were me I would make sure the firing is working as it is supposed to. I assume you changed the condenser when you put new points in.


OK. But can answer should I be able to push the dash control lever all the way up and should it stay there? Or naturally spring back? My tach is broken. Yes I changed the condenser and coil. Just got a new cork filter for top of fuel strainer bowl (i need to trim OD a little smaller to fit) Then will fill up gas, put the top of carb back and start her up. Ready to trim the gasket now. Will post back update. Thanks


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Update: One minute you're about to strangle them and the next you're buying them flowers. Sounds familiar. All 4 cylinders have spark. I raised the idle. She seemed to smoothen out a bit after that. Put her to the test and started to dig the trench. She performed well under load and no issues for about 30-60 min. It seems like the Governor is working, I guess, cause I did not sense any bogging down under digging load. Good ending to the day. We'll see what tomorrow brings. Thanks and sorry for the ups and downs!


----------



## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

If the governor wasn't working that would be obvious right away as the engine would not respond to load. I don't know about the lever but that has nothing to do with how the engine runs.

How did changing the idle help when you don't run the engine at idle when working it?

One way I've fixed that fuel filter issue is to replace the old sediment bowl with a new inline filter.

Stay focused, fix one thing until you know it's correct then move to the next issue.

It looks like a very nice workable tractor. For the most part International parts can be found. I have a 544 that has the unsaleable points as others have pointed out. I just live with it and it gets work done.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Did you ever block off that exhaust manifold opening that had exhaust gases heating the inlet manifold??.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Donttouchthat said:


> Is there a way I can do a test to see if my carb float and needle is performing properly while it is still attached to my tractor?


Not really with a top mount float setup, some carbies had the float and inlet pivoting from the side of the float bowl and it was possible to check these with the air horn off, if the engine is running sweet initially, then the float is working ok, if the engine is blowing black smoke and running rough, then you have a flooding problem.

You mentioned before in a previous post that you were squeezing the viton on the float needle, is this tip doughy?, if it is, then you will need to replace, the tip has to be firm.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

John Liebermann said:


> If the governor wasn't working that would be obvious right away as the engine would not respond to load. I don't know about the lever but that has nothing to do with how the engine runs.
> 
> How did changing the idle help when you don't run the engine at idle when working it?
> 
> ...


Thanks John, good point about idle vs working speed. I re read my manual and got a few pointers for start up procedures. One being push up the throttle (Governor Lever) to about half way. Pull out choke and crank a few times then push in the choke control and start. So I basically kept that setting for my working speed as everything seemed to be running decent. But as you point out there should be a difference between idle and work speed. So maybe I need to back off the idle a bit. 

I'm posting some short vids for the more experienced ear/eye for possible better understanding of whether engine running could be improved, One at low idle (before I boosted the idle) and one afterwards. You may have some input after seeing these. Also I am posting a vid of gases at the top of the carb after shutting off. I have no idea if totally normal, good or bad just a FYI for more info.

I already have (which I did replace with new one) an in-line fuel filter after the sediment bowl as it crosses to the other side of the tractor and heads into the mechanical pump. Perhaps owners along the way knew there was some junkies at the bottom of gas tank and was an extra step to prevent garbage getting to carb. 

*How do I know the setting for the needle valve at bottom of carb?* I turn it and I don't sense a change much. Gotta wear gloves doing any carb adj work. It is still VERY HOT next to the manifold
It's been a trooper overall and very happy with it. Thanks again


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> Did you ever block off that exhaust manifold opening that had exhaust gases heating the inlet manifold??.


Hey Cowboy. I did, see pic. But it still is quite hot and feel hot air still but not seeing any other holes right now. I did a bunch of searching for similar manifolds as mine and saw one (2 pics front side/back side) But I'm fine with the patch. Was just curious to see if I could find the same Thanks


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> Hey Cowboy. I did, see pic. But it still is quite hot and feel hot air still but not seeing any other holes right now. I did a bunch of searching for similar manifolds as mine and saw one (2 pics front side/back side) But I'm fine with the patch. Was just curious to see if I could find the same Thanks
> View attachment 80403
> 
> 
> ...


In picture, and you feeling hot exhaust, looks like the patch blew out. If you used metal JB Welded then clamped around (room for hose clamp?) would be better. An exhaust leak like that certainly affects performance. 

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> Not really with a top mount float setup, some carbies had the float and inlet pivoting from the side of the float bowl and it was possible to check these with the air horn off, if the engine is running sweet initially, then the float is working ok, if the engine is blowing black smoke and running rough, then you have a flooding problem.
> 
> You mentioned before in a previous post that you were squeezing the viton on the float needle, is this tip doughy?, if it is, then you will need to replace, the tip has to be firm.


re float needle. I definitely did a Rube Goldberg thing. When I removed the jet valve, containing the float needle and tested by blowing into it for seat/unseat action. I sense a slight unwillingness to unseat. And I sort of remembering reading a forum post saying the rubber vitons were a so so design. Any hoot, and knowing a replacement would be delay of days, I ended up pinching the rubber away leaving just the metal point the rubber was molded to. And then if that wasn't enough of a Fu_K'd move I also filed the metal chamfer on the 3 sides, thinking that might reduce drag as it hit the brass concave mating section. I mean I got to order another one because how can this possibly work properly, being a highly engineered/manufactured part, right? But... tractor is running. IDK maybe all Lucas carbs have rubber tipped vitons. What's your thought? I should get a backup. Thanks


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

First video...running with choke shut? That's wrong...engine warmed up.
Second & 3rd videos I'm hearing that high pitched sound I assume from exhaust leak (I'm guessing).
I think that's a great machine if you get the bugs worked out.
Running with choke shut...maybe it has a vacuum leak. You must be very careful but if you use things like WD-40 (safest)...carefully spray around carb, see if motor revs up.
But number one priority is getting your exhaust leak fixed. That's dangerous in so many ways...that can burn valves, a fire hazard, fumes, lowers hp, etc.
I believe if you can replace manifold (best) or have that one fixed (cast iron can be welded by a professional), that's going to fix most of your problems. 


Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> In picture, and you feeling hot exhaust, looks like the patch blew out. If you used metal JB Welded then clamped around (room for hose clamp?) would be better. An exhaust leak like that certainly affects performance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Hey Fuddy, I do still feel hot air but can't see where it's coming from. Yeah the patch looks like a bubble developed. But I don't think that is where the hole was. I'm posting side by side pics for comparison. It was an odd angle and didn't seem I could get a clamp on it. But then again maybe I could. Going to look at pic posted here and better in the morning. Thanks


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Wow! The float mods...what a testimony to a fantastic machine!!!
Seriously getting manifold (replace/repair), carburetor (repair/replace)...that thing will run like a top!

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

This is too funny. 
I see the manifold on WALMART site 
Hey...free delivery, warranty, etc.
Carb kits are available. Looks like parts available lots of places.









Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> First video...running with choke shut? That's wrong...engine warmed up.
> Second & 3rd videos I'm hearing that high pitched sound I assume from exhaust leak (I'm guessing).
> I think that's a great machine if you get the bugs worked out.
> Running with choke shut...maybe it has a vacuum leak. You must be very careful but if you use things like WD-40 (safest)...carefully spray around carb, see if motor revs up.
> ...


Just so you can have confidence 😕in my new engine knowledge. Remind me, when the choke is pushed all the way in (choke off/shut) the internal carb flap is shut or open? It was pushed all the way in. I say all the way in, but the tractor always ran the best a little pulled out so I kept up that practice. But it was weird though in that when I got done with every thing it started up immediately. The as I shut down to switch the spark tester to another plug/cylinder it would have to crank a while to get started. Which prompted me to choke a bit (although I know I shouldn't need to) But don't know why taking 10-15 sec of crank before a little struggle to start. We will see tomorrow. But you would think the engine would turn over immediately.

I'll try the wd-40 test and get back to you. I'll put some attention to the manifold.

You have a better ear than me, I can't really hear it but will take note.
Thanks


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> This is too funny.
> I see the manifold on WALMART site
> Hey...free delivery, warranty, etc.
> Carb kits are available. Looks like parts available lots of places.
> ...


LOL, 1965 IH 3414 manifolds on aisle 4! Red Tag Special! Buy one and get exhaust free! Unfortunately my bolt pattern is on the diagonal. This warrants a deeper search on Walmart though for sure


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> Wow! The float mods...what a testimony to a fantastic machine!!!
> Seriously getting manifold (replace/repair), carburetor (repair/replace)...that thing will run like a top!
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


LOL. Really, when it can take the abuse of an advanced hack. I agree and plan to


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Donttouchthat said:


> Just so you can have confidence in my new engine knowledge. Remind me, when the choke is pushed all the way in (choke off/shut) the internal carb flap is shut or open? It was pushed all the way in. I say all the way in, but the tractor always ran the best a little pulled out so I kept up that practice. But it was weird though in that when I got done with every thing it started up immediately. The as I shut down to switch the spark tester to another plug/cylinder it would have to crank a while to get started. Which prompted me to choke a bit (although I know I shouldn't need to) But don't know why taking 10-15 sec of crank before a little struggle to start. We will see tomorrow. But you would think the engine would turn over immediately.
> 
> I'll try the wd-40 test and get back to you. I'll put some attention to the manifold.
> 
> ...


Engine cold, choke closed. Should open it as engine warms up, fully open engine warm.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> In picture, and you feeling hot exhaust, looks like the patch blew out. If you used metal JB Welded then clamped around (room for hose clamp?) would be better. An exhaust leak like that certainly affects performance.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Discovered a continuation of that hole around the top that I missed. So patched that. Hopefully that's all of it. We'll see. Thanks


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

Was searching around for these types of knobs. I need three of them. Couldn't find a match yet. Stumbled onto an old IH advertisement for the tractor. Fun and interesting.


----------



## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

Dont worry about that float. Get a rebuild kit for that carb and it will have instructions how to set the float. 

The reason there is a choke on a gasoline engine is to richen the fuel/air mix for cold starting. During normal operation the choke should be al the way open. If you had to run with it partially closed that is because the engine is not getting a rich enough mixture for combustion. This could be caused by carburetor issues which you will have fixed after following rebuild instructions, or by a leaky intake manifold. 

If the manifold is leaking you want to fix that pronto because that means at least one of the cylinders is running too hot. That will destroy the engine. 

If it were me,, I would remove manifold cluster, rebuild carburetor, Fix hole in exhaust manifold correctly, make sure have the correct gaskets for manifold reinstall and gitterdone.


----------



## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

^^^I agree...except if you can buy a good exhaust manifold, better to replace it. Maybe best idea just pull both intake & exhaust, carefully check intake for a crack or blown gasket. Yes you can cause engine damage!


Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


----------



## Randy3414 (Oct 13, 2019)

fuddy1952 said:


> ^^^I agree...except if you can buy a good exhaust manifold, better to replace it. Maybe best idea just pull both intake & exhaust, carefully check intake for a crack or blown gasket. Yes you can cause engine damage!
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Check here for a intake/exhaust manifold, they have a few gas 3414's..

Good luck
International Salvage | 3414 | All States Ag Parts (tractorpartsasap.com)


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

John Liebermann said:


> Dont worry about that float. Get a rebuild kit for that carb and it will have instructions how to set the float.
> 
> The reason there is a choke on a gasoline engine is to richen the fuel/air mix for cold starting. During normal operation the choke should be al the way open. If you had to run with it partially closed that is because the engine is not getting a rich enough mixture for combustion. This could be caused by carburetor issues which you will have fixed after following rebuild instructions, or by a leaky intake manifold.
> 
> ...


I have one of those inspection mirrors coming tomorrow so I can get a better look behind the intake/exhaust manifold as it enters the block. To see if I see anything else. If she starts today I'll be trying to finish off my trench. Then I need her for back filling etc. once I get through with this phase (new utilities to my barn) then I will be able to continuing the build-out inside, and will not need the tractor so much. If she's running good enough to dig the trench, I may call it quits for now as to working on her cause I just can't sink more time with it right now. I know I may be risking more serious issues but she may not have any blown gaskets etc., perhaps only rusted out holes that I am patching. Reading up about the task of removing an old intake/ex manifold, and installing replacement, it appears like it could turn out to be quite a project, one never knows until you get into it, and I have a lack of experience. But it's more than what I want to do right now and 🙏'ing that I am not forced to do anything. Thanks for the advice and I'll have a better idea once I start her up today and also get that mirror.


----------



## Donttouchthat (May 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> ^^^I agree...except if you can buy a good exhaust manifold, better to replace it. Maybe best idea just pull both intake & exhaust, carefully check intake for a crack or blown gasket. Yes you can cause engine damage!
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Thanks. It's all on my radar. Just posted a fuller response to John's comment.


----------



## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

You won't be able to tell anything with that mirror regarding an intake manifold leak. You need to do what was suggested earlier, use a combustible spray and listen to the change in engine tone. 

Except for maybe the loader getting in the way removiing/replacing the intake manifold is almost a trivial exercise. .


----------

