# Electronic Ignition Check



## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Hi All,
I have a Ford 3400 that is quickly becoming a work in progress. What I thought was probably a flooded engine has turned to a probable ignition issue. I popped off the distributor cap and seen that it has been converted to an electronic ignition. How do I test this system without damaging the electronic module? I'm familiar with points and condensers but have never done anything with an electronic ignition. Lets hear of your experiences??


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## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

Most common conversion is the Pertronix kit. Usual failures are distributor cap/rotor, coil, or the air gap between the module face and inductor ring is under .010 or over .060 inch.

Distributor cap and rotor, and the coil are checked same as the conventional points type ignition. The air gap is checked with a feeler gauge inserted between the module face and the inductor ring before tightening down the module. The gap can be set to a minimum of 0.010" and a maximum of 0.060". Any gap between these two settings will by fine, and the use of steel feeler gauges is acceptable.

After about 15 years the module itself can fail, or if it is power washed, and it is most cost effective to just purchase a new replacement kit.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

RC Wells said:


> Most common conversion is the Pertronix kit. Usual failures are distributor cap/rotor, coil, or the air gap between the module face and inductor ring is under .010 or over .060 inch.
> 
> Distributor cap and rotor, and the coil are checked same as the conventional points type ignition. The air gap is checked with a feeler gauge inserted between the module face and the inductor ring before tightening down the module. The gap can be set to a minimum of 0.010" and a maximum of 0.060". Any gap between these two settings will by fine, and the use of steel feeler gauges is acceptable.
> 
> After about 15 years the module itself can fail, or if it is power washed, and it is most cost effective to just purchase a new replacement kit.


Thank you for the reply. I'm wondering if there is an actual test to see if the module has failed and if I have spark?


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## HarveyW (Sep 15, 2014)

Hello Willy,
The best way to check spark it is to pull a plug wire and install a good plug on the wire. Rest the plug body on a good ground. Crank the engine and observe the plug gap for spark. A yellowish-orange spark is not good enough. You need blue-white spark. I have trouble seeing spark in daylight. Shade or darkness is the best environment to see spark.


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## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes there is. http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/Module_Test.pdf

One caution: Never leave the power from the ignition key on for more than 30 seconds without the engine running, or the distributor on a test bench turning, with the coil output grounded so the module discharges.


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## Guest (Nov 12, 2017)

The electronic ignition module requires a bigger gap on the spark plug as well. When I first got my tractor, I did compression checks and thought to replace the spark plugs while I was doing that. Gapped the new plugs as per ford manual not realizing the electronic ignition module required an additional gap and self induced another cause for hard starting. My mechanic regapped them while doing his own compression checks and I found them set close to 40 thousandths. And yes, blue spark is required, orange or yellow not good enough! Also, there's a reason ford puts those big, heavy batteries in these tractors and it must be fully charged to at least 13.6v or better. If you still have the original style (Lucas) generator, it's likely not putting out more than 12 volts +/- and that's not good enough. Many owners of fords in this age range convert to 1 lead alternators as I have. This eliminates the voltage regulator which is another source of trouble.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

HarveyW said:


> Hello Willy,
> The best way to check spark it is to pull a plug wire and install a good plug on the wire. Rest the plug body on a good ground. Crank the engine and observe the plug gap for spark. A yellowish-orange spark is not good enough. You need blue-white spark. I have trouble seeing spark in daylight. Shade or darkness is the best environment to see spark.


I was wondering if I could check for spark the way you described with an electronic system...Thanks! I know electronics can be destroyed very quickly by doing the wrong thing and I thought I would check before making matters worse.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Graysonr said:


> The electronic ignition module requires a bigger gap on the spark plug as well. When I first got my tractor, I did compression checks and thought to replace the spark plugs while I was doing that. Gapped the new plugs as per ford manual not realizing the electronic ignition module required an additional gap and self induced another cause for hard starting. My mechanic regapped them while doing his own compression checks and I found them set close to 40 thousandths. And yes, blue spark is required, orange or yellow not good enough! Also, there's a reason ford puts those big, heavy batteries in these tractors and it must be fully charged to at least 13.6v or better. If you still have the original style (Lucas) generator, it's likely not putting out more than 12 volts +/- and that's not good enough. Many owners of fords in this age range convert to 1 lead alternators as I have. This eliminates the voltage regulator which is another source of trouble.


Thanks for the knowledge. There's certainly a lot of variables to the electronic ignition verses points and condensor. I'm thinking about just putting points and condensor back in this old tractor for that reason.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

RC Wells said:


> Yes there is. http://www.ttalk.info/Tech/Module_Test.pdf
> 
> One caution: Never leave the power from the ignition key on for more than 30 seconds without the engine running, or the distributor on a test bench turning, with the coil output grounded so the module discharges.


That's just what I was looking for! If my module is bad I am going to put a set of points and a condenser back in the distributor...I think. In reading some of the additional posts, I'm thinking my old tractor might not be ready for the electronic system.


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## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

I would not go back to points and condenser, as they all come from China and fail prematurely. The points are plated, not solid, and pit quickly.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

RC Wells said:


> I would not go back to points and condenser, as they all come from China and fail prematurely. The points are plated, not solid, and pit quickly.


Why doesn't that surprise me....China! How long have they been lasting before you have problems?


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

Random thoughts:
I put EI in a 3000 about 12 years ago. I ran it for 3 years and sold it to a guy I know. I know for a fact that the distributer cap has not been off the tractor in that time.
Imo the only thing more reliable than a gasser with EI is a diesel.
I can't get that pdf file to open on this cell.
I would think you could remove the center magnet off the distributer shaft.
There is a red wire and a black wire going into dist. Figure out which wire is hot to module- probably red one. With power on wave a small magnet past the module and watch for voltage going to the coil - I think at the black wire.
By the way, they will work on much less than 12V. These tractors originally had a resister wire going to the coil. It plugged in to a bullet connector by the solenoid and was 3 lengths of wire folded back and forth then wrapped together. Just guessing that it dropped the voltage to coil to 8-9? volts. I did not know about that resister wire when I first put ei on that tractor. It ran fine that way for a couple of years till I learned about the resister wire. I was cleaning up that tractor to sell and twisted off one of the small studs on the coil. I replaced the coil with.a true 12V coil (no resister required)
And did away with the resister wire.
There was NO noticeable difference in performance.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Well thank you for your knowledge. This tractor is new to me and I don't really know how to start it yet. (Every tractor has its starting procedure.) It fired off and then went dead. I thought for sure I flooded it so I pulled the plugs out and they looked fine. I put new ones in but I don't have any spark. The rotor was badly burnt so that could be part of the problem. Tomorrow I will test everything out and see if I am getting power to the distributor. I'm going to replace the cap and rotor and wires so I have a fresh tune up. Im hoping The EI isnt bad. Graysonr mentioned to gap the plugs at.040 so I will re gap them as well.


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## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

Willy A said:


> Why doesn't that surprise me....China! How long have they been lasting before you have problems?


Quite a few fail out of the box, others last about a season of use. Not the solid performing stuff of yesteryear.


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2017)

I strongly suggest you get a copy of the Owner's/Operator's manual for the tractor. My 2000 starts just the way the manual says. At least that's a good place to start and a goal to aim for. Yes, you're still looking for a strong blue spark at the plug gap even with ei. The manual will also give you a really good list of routine maintenance checks for the whole tractor. I'm not sure all ei modules require the same spark gap. If the tractor was starting when you bought it, I'd try the same gap the original plugs had. If you get hold of the O/O manual, try 5 thousandths over what ford said (23-28 thousandths for mine). If you figure out who made your ei module, perhaps someone can advise you further. I'm pretty sure your plugs are AG5-B like mine. My warm weather starting procedure is throttle at idle, turn key, should fire within 10 sec. If not, (cold engine/cold weather) advance throttle to a fast idle position and full choke again for 10 sec. If it hasn't started at that point it's most likely flooded and I'd get the starter fluid and give it a shot into the air filter housing after removing the air filter. Then throttle back to slow idle and be ready to play the choke. Slowly pushing it in as the engine will tolerate it. Replace the air filter and cover.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Graysonr said:


> I strongly suggest you get a copy of the Owner's/Operator's manual for the tractor. My 2000 starts just the way the manual says. At least that's a good place to start and a goal to aim for. Yes, you're still looking for a strong blue spark at the plug gap even with ei. The manual will also give you a really good list of routine maintenance checks for the whole tractor. I'm not sure all ei modules require the same spark gap. If the tractor was starting when you bought it, I'd try the same gap the original plugs had. If you get hold of the O/O manual, try 5 thousandths over what ford said (23-28 thousandths for mine). If you figure out who made your ei module, perhaps someone can advise you further. I'm pretty sure your plugs are AG5-B like mine. My warm weather starting procedure is throttle at idle, turn key, should fire within 10 sec. If not, (cold engine/cold weather) advance throttle to a fast idle position and full choke again for 10 sec. If it hasn't started at that point it's most likely flooded and I'd get the starter fluid and give it a shot into the air filter housing after removing the air filter. Then throttle back to slow idle and be ready to play the choke. Slowly pushing it in as the engine will tolerate it. Replace the air filter and cover.


Yes, I'm going to pick up a manual today. Thanks for all of your input and knowledge.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

RC Wells said:


> Quite a few fail out of the box, others last about a season of use. Not the solid performing stuff of yesteryear.


I guess I should be surprised but somehow I'm not. This is my first go around with the electronic ignition add on in tractors. It is starting to remind me of back in the 70's when EI was entering in the automotive industry. Thanks for your input.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Graysonr said:


> The electronic ignition module requires a bigger gap on the spark plug as well. When I first got my tractor, I did compression checks and thought to replace the spark plugs while I was doing that. Gapped the new plugs as per ford manual not realizing the electronic ignition module required an additional gap and self induced another cause for hard starting. My mechanic regapped them while doing his own compression checks and I found them set close to 40 thousandths. And yes, blue spark is required, orange or yellow not good enough! Also, there's a reason ford puts those big, heavy batteries in these tractors and it must be fully charged to at least 13.6v or better. If you still have the original style (Lucas) generator, it's likely not putting out more than 12 volts +/- and that's not good enough. Many owners of fords in this age range convert to 1 lead alternators as I have. This eliminates the voltage regulator which is another source of trouble.


A little feed back from my spark plug, tune up, and starting problems/questions. I decided to take an early HEI type ignition and compare notes on the EI system on my tractor. Needless to say, there's not a lot to compare to but I did find a few things out. I pulled the distributor out of the tractor and put it on a friends test bench. We set different spark plug gaps and compared the spark and the spark color, and output. Next I hooked up a "Hot" coil and the spark color was a lot more blue in color. Part of this was that I had a weak coil before hand but the best results came with your recomendation of a bigger spark plug gap than what the manual calls for. We are at .038 on the plugs and this tractor runs perfect. I wanted to thank you again for your knowledge and let you know my results. Im sure others might have different opinions and thoughts but that's what we come up with. Thanks again!


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2017)

You are most welcome and I certainly appreciate the feedback. As owner's of fallen flag and older tractors, sharing of knowledge learned is essential. Almost like the days when the wagon train master led the groups across.....our knowledge makes us money, one way or another!


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Graysonr said:


> You are most welcome and I certainly appreciate the feedback. As owner's of fallen flag and older tractors, sharing of knowledge learned is essential. Almost like the days when the wagon train master led the groups across.....our knowledge makes us money, one way or another!


I like your style and philosophy,Graysonr!


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2017)

BTW I have finally got my misfortunate Holley carburetor to the point that it will help rather than hinder starting and running without stuttering when taking a load. My mechanic first soaked it for 5 days and that really didn't change anything in the long run.....plus it was still very prone to flooding and still had the nasty habit of weeping gas. Next we tried a rebuild kit. Really no improvement in any respect. and based on reading I did, a Ford tractor mechanic that worked on these as they were new, gave insight. (a)The Holley carb needed to be put together with torqued screws. Once over tightened, it's warped and leakers from there to doom's day. (b)Because the governor is constantly adjusting the acceleration pump, as early as 500 hours the pump would show signs of metal on metal wear, causing the stutter as it took a load. He found a work around on the stutter by miss setting the choke cable so it was still a bit on even though it was thought to be fully off. To make a long story short, although I hated to give up on the Holley, it is now replaced with the appropriate Zenith and it starts even better and in cold weather, no flooding, no stutter, no leaks. I remember plenty of tractors on the dealers lot as a teen that didn't start this good! That old Holley gave it's all and now helps by sitting in that box in my workshop.


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## Willy A (Nov 6, 2017)

Graysonr said:


> BTW I have finally got my misfortunate Holley carburetor to the point that it will help rather than hinder starting and running without stuttering when taking a load. My mechanic first soaked it for 5 days and that really didn't change anything in the long run.....plus it was still very prone to flooding and still had the nasty habit of weeping gas. Next we tried a rebuild kit. Really no improvement in any respect. and based on reading I did, a Ford tractor mechanic that worked on these as they were new, gave insight. (a)The Holley carb needed to be put together with torqued screws. Once over tightened, it's warped and leakers from there to doom's day. (b)Because the governor is constantly adjusting the acceleration pump, as early as 500 hours the pump would show signs of metal on metal wear, causing the stutter as it took a load. He found a work around on the stutter by miss setting the choke cable so it was still a bit on even though it was thought to be fully off. To make a long story short, although I hated to give up on the Holley, it is now replaced with the appropriate Zenith and it starts even better and in cold weather, no flooding, no stutter, no leaks. I remember plenty of tractors on the dealers lot as a teen that didn't start this good! That old Holley gave it's all and now helps by sitting in that box in my workshop.


What you're saying makes perfect sense. I am a tool maker by trade and learned the importance of torque early on. I spend most of my time rebuilding and modifying tooling for CNC machines that have to hold critical dimensions so proper toque and sequence are essential. It's amazing the amount of movement that occurs when you take a dial indicator against a surface and tighten bolts or screws. Back in the day, I worked on a lot of bigger Holley carburetors and learned a lot from some very fine mechanics. Holley's were best described to me by one of Holley's own design engineers calling them " A Tinkering Man's Dream." Although the tractor version is a much simpler design, the same engineering techniques apply. I am a big fan of Zenith carburetors. Now some folks are throwing tomatoes at me for saying that but I have had nothing but good luck with them. I have found that they need very little attention once adjusted properly AND the rest of the tractor is in good running order. For the critics of properly torqueing bolts and screws I would simply say to try this method before you make up your mind it's not necessary. IF you have already over tightened a thin metal surface such as a carburetor it is probably too late...It wont heal itself.


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