# Tractor smokes at idle.



## tomcat4530 (Sep 11, 2018)

I got a Mahindra 4530 it smokes when it starts. After it warms up it only smokes at idle. Was wondering thought on it. Could it be glow plugs. Also when bush hogging it will sometimes start a rattle and lose power. You can kill it and it will do fine.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Look up wet-stacking on the web. From your description, the tractor needs to be run a bit longer for the tasks you need and a little more RPMs to prevent wet-stacking. 

Also, don't let water get into the exhaust pipe nor in the fuel either. 

Diesel Asian engines don't like starter fluid either. It's a no-no.

That's the first thing to look at.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

bmaverick said:


> Look up wet-stacking on the web. From your description, the tractor needs to be run a bit longer for the tasks you need and a little more RPMs to prevent wet-stacking.
> 
> Also, don't let water get into the exhaust pipe nor in the fuel either.
> 
> ...


Well, you learn something every day.... 35 years as a professional diesel mechanic. ASE Mastered Certified since 1984. Factory trained to do any warranty work on Mack, Cummins, or Detroit engines, to include major O/H's. Amazingly, I've never heard of, or seen, "wet stacking" until I joined this forum.

Perhaps it's because I worked on OTR trucks, but sleeper units routinely idle over night at truck stops. It disturbs me to think of all the time/money spent to send me to 3 different OEM Factory Engine Overhaul Schools and nobody ever brought this up. Because you're being trained to do warranty work where these OEM's pay the invoice, all 3 hit "Failure Analysis" really hard. I don't even recall seeing the results of "wet stacking" in any of the failure analysis manuals they provide to Warranty Centers and update on an annual basis.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying it's not real. I'm just wondering why Mack, Cummins, and Detroit never told me about it in their Factory Service Schools. I've taken the ASE Diesel Recertification test 8 times and I don't recall a single question about it over the last 32 years. Once again, I wonder why?

Perhaps it's because OTR trucks run much longer exhaust piping than a farm tractor and a 210HP engine is considered a small engine in a truck? 6" exhaust is pretty common on a truck.


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

Bob Driver said:


> Well, you learn something every day.... 35 years as a professional diesel mechanic. ASE Mastered Certified since 1984. Factory trained to do any warranty work on Mack, Cummins, or Detroit engines, to include major O/H's. Amazingly, I've never heard of, or seen, "wet stacking" until I joined this forum.
> 
> Perhaps it's because I worked on OTR trucks, but sleeper units routinely idle over night at truck stops. It disturbs me to think of all the time/money spent to send me to 3 different OEM Factory Engine Overhaul Schools and nobody ever brought this up. Because you're being trained to do warranty work where these OEM's pay the invoice, all 3 hit "Failure Analysis" really hard. I don't even recall seeing the results of "wet stacking" in any of the failure analysis manuals they provide to Warranty Centers and update on an annual basis.
> 
> ...


I don't claim to know 1/10 of what you know about diesel engines but I do know that wet stacking is real.
The tractor in the photo has a fresh engine - bore, sleeve, pistons, crank grind, head work and a pump overhaul.
It has about 50 hours on it since the reman. All but a couple of those hours just idling along under say, 1200 rpm. Rings aren't even fully seated.
Muffler is too tall for the door to the shed so no clamp where it attaches to the manifold. We pull the muffler off to get it inside. The entire left (exhaust) side of the engine is a nasty, drippy, black mess due to wet stacking. 
Diesel engines were made to be Run - at or near maximum horsepower - day in day out. Powering a backhoe, doing field work, running a big truck hauling dirt or freight OTR, pushing barges up river, charging a Thermo King unit, rock crusher or a brush chipper making shavings out of limbs.
The piddling around this tractor does never gets it hot despite the 195 degree thermostat in it.
This summer I will use a degreaser and pressure wash the nasty off. Then bring it up to my land and hook it to the Bush Hog for a couple of days and run the snot out of it. That will help clear it up. 
My little 3000 has about 500 hours on the engine since it was factory new. Most of the time I run it pretty hard mowing. It doesn't wet stack but will smoke at idle if I'm just puttering around with it for hours.
I think a lot of guys buy a new tractor and just putter with them.
They're unfamiliar, even scared of them. Think they're like a car that you usually don't run much over 1/2 rpm even at highway speeds. So they run them low and slow and they start to stink and leak.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Ultradog said:


> I don't claim to know 1/10 of what you know about diesel engines but I do know that wet stacking is real.
> The tractor in the photo has a fresh engine - bore, sleeve, pistons, crank grind, head work and a pump overhaul.
> It has about 50 hours on it since the reman. All but a couple of those hours just idling along under say, 1200 rpm. Rings aren't even fully seated.
> Muffler is too tall for the door to the shed so no clamp where it attaches to the manifold. We pull the muffler off to get it inside. The entire left (exhaust) side of the engine is a nasty, drippy, black mess due to wet stacking.
> ...


Like I said... I don't doubt it's real, there's to much information about it on the interweb. I'm just wondering why I never came across it in 35 years working on trucks. I've had trucks sit at truck stops idling for 3 days because I/70 was closed due to a blizzard, didn't happen. In the early 80's, we were still running 2-stroke Detroit engines (8V92TT's), talk about "a nasty, drippy, black mess". The guys that trained me on those engines had been working on truck engines since the 50's.... Never mentioned it.

I'm thinking it has to be a little more than just the difference between the operating conditions of a diesel farm tractor and a diesel, OTR, line-haul truck. What is it?? Variable speed governor, T-50 turbo (VGT turbos since EGR came into play in 2004), 16' of 6" exhaust piping on a sleeper unit? Ever seen the size of the injector nozzles on a KTA600 (600HP) Cummins? To a young kid, the injectors seemed to be the size of a beer can. If there ever was an OTR diesel engine that would "blubber" fuel at an idle, it would have been that engine. They only got 4mpg, at best, and that was if you drove them like grandma on the way to church.... Why no "wet stacking"? 


Do locomotive engines do it? Do barge boat engines do it? "You learn something every day". I'm just trying to make "wet stacking" the topic for me today..... Please don't blow smoke at me with a lofty attempt to answer the design question (no pun intended), I really am curious....


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Wet stacking info per manufacture 

http://www.mqpower.com/wet-stacking.html

http://www.cliffordpower.com/stuff/...230413aa3d1189ef7/misc/is_09_wet_stacking.pdf

http://www.kinsley-group.com/blog?article=38

https://www.ckpower.com/wet-stacking-avoid/ 

https://www.rermag.com/power-genera...generac-offers-webinar-on-wet-stacking-may-21 
During the free 30-minute webinar, technical experts from Generac Mobile and John Deere together will discuss and take questions from participants on wet stacking and new Final Tier 4 engine technologies that help minimize or even eliminate wet stacking.

https://www.foleyengines.com/tech-tip-184-how-break-remanufactured-deutz-engine 

https://www.cummins.com/na/sales-and-service/load-bank-performance-testing

SAE papers on 'wet-stacking'
https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/852087/ 
https://www.sae.org/news/2019/01/developments-in-engine-based-gensets 

Most notably, gensets run around 1800 rpms on high throttle. With these Japan tractor diesel engines, which BTW are used OFTEN as genset diesel engines, we need to understand the issues of getting the engine up to working temps and at satisfactory rpms to keep the wet stacking to a minimal. 

NEWER diesel engines use an ETM system (Exhaust Temperature Management system). Mainly on-road trucking has like systems in place already vs. these tractor diesel engines from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Bob Driver said:


> Do barge boat engines do it?


Yes. 

*What is 'Wet Stacking' - Marine Corps Logistics Command* 
https://www.logcom.marines.mil/Portals/184/Docs/Sites/lsmc/lis/trends/April-2007-Wet-Stacking.doc

*Why You Shouldn’t Go Easy on a Diesel*
https://www.proboat.com/2015/02/why-you-shouldn-t-go-easy-on-a-diesel/

*Older Marine Diesel Engines*
https://merpower.wordpress.com/tag/wet-stacking/ 
Plainly, some engines can tolerate part load operation better than others. There is a qualifier for this statement though; many, if not most diesel engine powered boat engines are ten to fifteen years behind the “State of the Art” in fuel efficiency. This list focuses on the older engines that are in the 20-500 horsepower range. 


For semi-trucks parked and idling, they have a cylinder wash cycle that raises the engine throttle rpms should the exhaust temp drops too low. Some of the semi-trucks will report in miles, road hours and idle hours. They are a bit more sophisticated than our tiny Japan old diesel engines. LOL


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

That's great .... I was just figuring the simple answer to the design difference was that most OTR trucks have 16' x 6" (or more) exhaust system that drops considerably *below* the level of the exhaust manifold ports (liquids do tend to run down hill) and usually a condensation drain port in the lowest point, where as a farm tractor usually has a 3' x 3" (or less) exhaust stack that rises 90 degrees vertical *above* the exhaust manifold ports with no provision for unburned fuel to drain. Do any of those links mention what actually led them to coin the term "wet *STACKING"?
*
Would you have a link to any information on wet stacking from anybody that actually builds truck engines like Detroit, Mack, Cummins, PACCAR, or Volvo? I just want to make sure I didn't miss the memo.....


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Bob Driver said:


> That's great .... I was just figuring the simple answer to the design difference was that most OTR trucks have 16' x 6" (or more) exhaust system that drops considerably *below* the level of the exhaust manifold ports (liquids do tend to run down hill) and usually a condensation drain port in the lowest point, where as a farm tractor usually has a 3' x 3" (or less) exhaust stack that rises 90 degrees vertical *above* the exhaust manifold ports with no provision for unburned fuel to drain. Do any of those links mention what actually led them to coin the term "wet *STACKING"?
> *
> Would you have a link to any information on wet stacking from anybody that actually builds truck engines like Detroit, Mack, Cummins, PACCAR, or Volvo? I just want to make sure I didn't miss the memo.....


Cummins and the SAE are mentioned in their respected links. And, not sure IF truck engine manufactures us the term or to avoid liabilities, use another term instead. Sort of like saying, I have the cure for cancer. Well, that is taboo in the medical realm. They use this 'cylinder wash cycle' as something along with 'fuel wash event' and 'fuel washed cylinder walls.' Basically, it's all taking about the same issues of wet-stacking. Have an issue, no problem, hire a law firm to avoid using the term 'wet-stacking' all is good now, just keep making engines.


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## bontai Joe (Sep 16, 2003)

Thanks guys!!! I learned a little something today. Most of it was over my head, but I'll peruse thru it again a couple of times 'till I get a better understanding. Always a good day when I learn something new, THANKS!


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

bmaverick said:


> Cummins and the SAE are mentioned in their respected links. And, not sure IF truck engine manufactures us the term or to avoid liabilities, use another term instead. Sort of like saying, I have the cure for cancer. Well, that is taboo in the medical realm. They use this 'cylinder wash cycle' as something along with 'fuel wash event' and 'fuel washed cylinder walls.' Basically, it's all taking about the same issues of wet-stacking. Have an issue, no problem, hire a law firm to avoid using the term 'wet-stacking' all is good now, just keep making engines.


Are you sure you read those links before you posted them? The Cummins link is about Gensets (Generators), *not* truck engines. The 1st SAE link is about running a sunflower oil/diesel fuel blend, nothing mentioned about wet stacking in truck engines. The second SAE link is also about gensets, *not* truck engines. 

I was hoping for something that specifically talks about the risk of wet stacking to a DD13/15 Detroit, MX11/13 PACCAR, or ISX Cummins engines. It would seem miniscule with modern DPF systems and not require a major comspiracy/cover up involving the OEM's and their lawyers.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Bob Driver said:


> Are you sure you read those links before you posted them? The Cummins link is about Gensets (Generators), *not* truck engines. The 1st SAE link is about running a sunflower oil/diesel fuel blend, nothing mentioned about wet stacking in truck engines. The second SAE link is also about gensets, *not* truck engines.
> 
> I was hoping for something that specifically talks about the risk of wet stacking to a DD13/15 Detroit, MX11/13 PACCAR, or ISX Cummins engines. It would seem miniscule with modern DPF systems and not require a major comspiracy/cover up involving the OEM's and their lawyers.


Did you read my statement that the Japan diesel engines are basically identical to the tractor engines with a tuned down injector pump. This isn't just tractors, it's excavators, crawlers, etc. Notably anything that is for off-highway use machinery from the pre-EPA engine era. 

If you ever look at the RePower Diesel Engine listings, it's noted that the gensets and the off-road engines are basically the same. Thus, in this tractor forum, tractors are our focus. We are not looking at anything with modern systems.


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## deerhide (Oct 20, 2016)

Now I know what 'wet stacking' refers to. I always called it 'carboned-up'. Yes, I have seen diesel farm tractors suffering from it. Mostly old lads that traded in an old gas Ford or IH that they puttered around with. The new diesel MF got the same sort of work that only needed 12 or 15hp to do. So they ran the new one at about 950rpm in 2nd. low.When I got the complaint I would visit and watch the old fella pop his eyes out when I hauled the throttle wide open and walked away to talk to him about carboning-up.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

tomcat4530 said:


> I got a Mahindra 4530 it smokes when it starts. After it warms up it only smokes at idle. Was wondering thought on it. Could it be glow plugs. Also when bush hogging it will sometimes start a rattle and lose power. You can kill it and it will do fine.


So did you figure out smokey bit?
Used to get a lot of white smoke out of our old Deutz diesel's upon start up, but it cleared up when they warmed up. If you keep the idle rev's up as Ultradog mentioned you should alleviate any issues and maintain a clean burn. Have you changed the fuel filter and air filters lately? You could have a bit of water in your fuel and / or some suffocating air filters killing your performance.


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## tomcat4530 (Sep 11, 2018)

Cranked it up yesterday didn’t smoke. So must be just worrying about it to much.


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## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

Back in the day when truck and Cat engines had to idle for long periods because restarting them in sub zero temps was impossible, we would take them up to high idle for 15mins or so at least once every 24-36hrs. failure to do that would eventually cause the engine to quit, then it was towing it in to warm to restart.


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## Busted Tractor (May 22, 2018)

Back in the 70's and 80's I worked as a farm equipment mechanic. Working with MM and MF tractors never heard of wet stacking if they did it was not enough to notice. A customer had an IH tractor I made a comment to him that he ought to get it looked at. He told me it was normal for that model to do that especially when it was doing light work or left idling. From this I figured that it must be the design of the engine and or the type of injection design that contributed to the wet stacking. Just as some of those IH diesels needed to be glow plugged every time you started them-- yes even hot -- even after just shutting it down!! Ever notice how indirect injected engines need more glow plugs or starting fluid to get them going, but they run quieter. A direct injected engine starts with less assistance but has more "knock" to them. All in the design of the engine.


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## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

Wet Stacking of a Diesel is normal although it does not occur in engines that spend considerable time working.

A diesel combustion chamber will cool down considerably if it is not doing work. That being said the chamber is cool enough that injected fuel does not not always cleanly burn. The longer it idles with this cooled combustion chamber the more soot accumulates. It then blows out as soot and oil when the chamber is finally heated(doing work).

So far as I know this has always been characteristic of an engine that loads the cylinder with a full load of cold air each cycle then injects only enough fuel to keep ti rotating and not perform useful work.

BTW on thinking about it, the 24-36hrs I mentioned earlier is a exaggeration the more I think about it. Should be more like 12-15 hrs. The horror of old memories!


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

John Liebermann said:


> So far as I know this has always been characteristic of an engine that loads the cylinder with a full load of cold air each cycle then injects only enough fuel to keep ti rotating and not perform useful work.


With winter snow plowing using the tractor, it's best to have it running more than an idle when sitting and working for a period of time to ensure the soot is not building up. 
My neighbors are always thanking me for clearing their driveways. Well, this is to ensure the tractor has worked long enough in winter operations. It helps my tractor and in turn helps them. If I only used the tractor for 10mins of work out in the very cold, it's not evenly warmed up enough. 

I find with the Yanmar 3T80 engine, it works well from 1500 thru 2400 RPMs. No soot nor smoking occurs with the frequency of use. Sure, I can crank the RPMs to 3000, but what's the sense in that. Unless I'm drag-racing a Deere.


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## Bluetractorman (Aug 23, 2019)

Thanks for all the comments on this. My old Ford 1700 diesel probably needs to be run at higher rpms also I would assume? So when I get off and leave it running temporarily to go get a drink or whatever, should I leave it at the rpm I was running at while it was working?


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

What rpm are you working your tractor at?
I run tractor in the low 2000's, 2250 or there about's, but that's my Case Farmall. When I get off stop for a moment, I idle it down to 1200-1500. I also keep an eye on my engine temperature gauge. I keep it in the green, on the warm side of mid range. I usually don't use my tractor for small quick jobs in the cold either. I like warm it up it and only use it in the cold pretty much when I need to clear the driveway ( 2 or 3 hours) or when I need to haul a round bale out for the horses then I try and catch up on the odds jobs that I put off earlier to make it worth firing it up.


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

Bluetractorman said:


> Thanks for all the comments on this. My old Ford 1700 diesel probably needs to be run at higher rpms also I would assume? So when I get off and leave it running temporarily to go get a drink or whatever, should I leave it at the rpm I was running at while it was working?


I would idle it down.
Saves fuel.
When you get back on it drive it like you stole it.


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## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

No need to leave it run at working RPM's but it should never be left to idle for any period at what ever is set for low idle. Pogo's note says 12-1500 maybe that's faster than what I would do but Pogo has the right idea. 

Remember there are only so many miles in a piston before it will need to be replaced.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Bluetractorman said:


> Thanks for all the comments on this. My old Ford 1700 diesel probably needs to be run at higher rpms also I would assume? So when I get off and leave it running temporarily to go get a drink or whatever, should I leave it at the rpm I was running at while it was working?


Ford 1700, 2-cly, Shibaura LE892, max running rpm 2500. 
http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/2/5/252-ford-1700-engine.html

Tractor-specs.net gives even more engine details.
https://www.tractor-specs.net/ford/1700.html

"The *Ford 1700* is two-wheel (2WD) or a four-wheel (4WD) compact utility tractor from the Hundred compact series, manufactured by Japanese company Shibaura for Ford brand from 1979 to 1982. The Ford 1700 tractor is equipped with two-cylinders Shibaura LE892 diesel engine with 1.3 L, 1,272 cc (77.7 cu-in) of displacement and gear shift transmission with 12 forward and 4 reverse gears (three forward speeds, plus reverse, in four ranges).

The Ford 1700 tractor used a two-cylinder naturally-aspirated liquid-cooled indirect injection diesel engine Shibaura LE892, with 90.0 mm (3.54 in) of the cylinder bore and 100.0 mm (3.94 in) of the piston stroke. Compression ratio rating is 21.0:1. The LE892 engine produced 25.3 PS (18.6 kW; 25.0 HP) of gross horsepower. The power rating at PTO shaft is 23.7 PS (17.4 kW; 23.3 HP). The engine used dry air cleaner and pre-heating glow plugs."

It's 2-cly sure has an impressive bore and stroke ratio. So, the engine will keep temps well at mid-range rpm.

1400 to 2200 rpm should be doable as a working range. 2200 to 2500 when it's needed on demand like you stole it. 

My manual says not to let the engine low idle more than 10mins at a time over an hour period. Your Ford and my near John Deere are both Japan engines in the same era.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

burning a touch of crankcase oil isn't the worst thing to ever happen to a diesel.


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## JAMES M KILE (Feb 10, 2020)

tomcat4530 said:


> I got a Mahindra 4530 it smokes when it starts. After it warms up it only smokes at idle. Was wondering thought on it. Could it be glow plugs. Also when bush hogging it will sometimes start a rattle and lose power. You can kill it and it will do fine.





tomcat4530 said:


> I got a Mahindra 4530 it smokes when it starts. After it warms up it only smokes at idle. Was wondering thought on it. Could it be glow plugs. Also when bush hogging it will sometimes start a rattle and lose power. You can kill it and it will do fine.


Check for water in the fuel filter. I drained water out of my filter and it stopped the white smoke. I did go ahead and put a new filter on.


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## JAMES M KILE (Feb 10, 2020)

tomcat4530 said:


> I got a Mahindra 4530 it smokes when it starts. After it warms up it only smokes at idle. Was wondering thought on it. Could it be glow plugs. Also when bush hogging it will sometimes start a rattle and lose power. You can kill it and it will do fine.


I have a 4530 Mahindra and the position lever for the three point is very stiff, just wondering if yours was ever like that or what the problem could be?


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