# Deere 650 at altitude



## Ray Brueggemeier

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum, thanks to all for the work you've put in! This is a very cool site.

I've got a newer to me John Deere 650 4wd tractor. I bought it with a bad piston (sus either) and have rebuilt the engine. It now starts and runs well, and I have become very fond of the little guy. I have a problem though, and I'm hoping for some help.

I live at 9000 ft and in the winter I use it to blow snow. The snow blower really slows the tractor down with any decent amount of snow. I've come up with 4 thoughts: bigger engine (do any 3 cyl come close to mounting up?), turbo the 2 cyl, electric motor for the blower (this is may be a cool but crazy project), leave it alone - it's 17hp, get over it. 

I love to tinker, and this I consider this an investment in my sanity, but not an investment from a resale perspective. Anybody have thoughts or light to shed on this.

Thanks again all, Ray


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## winston

Maybe a lower gear?


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## Ray Brueggemeier

That's what I use. (Real) 1st slows it down in medium snow.


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## winston

Well then, your blower is to much for the tractor. I doubt getting a 3 cylinder to fit and I doubt a turbocharger. I say sell your blower and buy a smaller one or sell the tractor and buy a larger one. Not what you are wanting to hear.


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## bmaverick

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> Hi all,
> I'm new to the forum, thanks to all for the work you've put in! This is a very cool site.
> 
> I've got a newer to me John Deere 650 4wd tractor. I bought it with a bad piston (sus either) and have rebuilt the engine. It now starts and runs well, and I have become very fond of the little guy. I have a problem though, and I'm hoping for some help.
> 
> I live at 9000 ft and in the winter I use it to blow snow. The snow blower really slows the tractor down with any decent amount of snow. I've come up with 4 thoughts: bigger engine (do any 3 cyl come close to mounting up?), turbo the 2 cyl, electric motor for the blower (this is may be a cool but crazy project), leave it alone - it's 17hp, get over it.
> 
> I love to tinker, and this I consider this an investment in my sanity, but not an investment from a resale perspective. Anybody have thoughts or light to shed on this.
> 
> Thanks again all, Ray


Ray, Rock2610 basically has a JD850 at high altitude. It's the next 2 models bigger than your JD650. He had to add a IHI turbo and mess around with the fuel injector pump to get it all working right. And his was the 3-cly Yanmar 3T80. 

The JD650 with the 2TR80 in not ideal for being at high altitude with a PTO driven snow blower. Have you tried a straight blade to push the snow in reverse instead? I do that now with my machine that is about equal with the JD850 at 750FT above sea level. 

Also at high altitude, and in the winter, your JD650 needs to be running *5W30* for engine oil and *J20D* for the hydraulics. And over the course of the winter, check and top off the 5W30 as needed. This is in the JD manual for your machine. If your machine has 15W40 in it, the engine is being robbed of power for winter use. 

*Yanmar & John Deere Oil specs*










*Hydraulic Fluid: *










Hope this helps the nice little JD650.


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## Ray Brueggemeier

Thanks guys.
Winston,
I get the bigger machine or smaller blower advice, and you're right, I really have the wrong machine for my location. I'm trying to hold on to it as otherwise it's a great setup - heated cab, low hours, paid for.

Maverick,
Thanks for the heads up on fluids. I'll confirm the hydraulic fluid is correct, change the oil. I appreciate the tables and your hard work to supply them.

Using online calculators, I'm not sure there's a turbo small enough for this engine. It also doesn't seem like a swap is going to be clean enough to happen. I'll continue to work on this and update.

Thanks again,
Ray


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## bmaverick

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> Thanks guys.
> Thanks for the heads up on fluids. I'll confirm the hydraulic fluid is correct, change the oil. I appreciate the tables and your hard work to supply them.
> Ray


Ray, 

The fluid swap and a clean hydraulic filer will restore your machine to better performance for the season. 

As the high altitude requires more air intake, shop-vac the filter often and keep the intake passages clean.


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## Groo

isn't propane injection a big thing with diesels?

my understanding is that the propane acts a bit like a catalyst as it burns itself by helping the diesel to burn better. seams like you could use something like a NOx pressure switch to fog some propane when under full pump.

as far as an engine swap, the 650 has a Yanmar 2T80. The 750 used the 3T80. The fuel injectors are the same, so I assume they are the same engine, save for 2 cylinders vs. 3 cylinder. .9l vs 1.3l suggests the same as well. I would think it somewhat likely that they would have the same bolt patterns and so forth.


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## bmaverick

Groo said:


> isn't propane injection a big thing with diesels?
> 
> my understanding is that the propane acts a bit like a catalyst as it burns itself by helping the diesel to burn better. seams like you could use something like a NOx pressure switch to fog some propane when under full pump.
> 
> as far as an engine swap, the 650 has a Yanmar 2T80. The 750 used the 3T80. The fuel injectors are the same, so I assume they are the same engine, save for 2 cylinders vs. 3 cylinder. .9l vs 1.3l suggests the same as well. I would think it somewhat likely that they would have the same bolt patterns and so forth.


The JD650 engine platform is too short. I can't see a 3-cly anything fitting in there. It's tight with just the 2-cly. The JD650 is the Yanmar YM-Series frame. The JD750 is more like the Yanmar F/FX-Series frame.


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## Groo

bmaverick said:


> The JD650 engine platform is too short. I can't see a 3-cly anything fitting in there. It's tight with just the 2-cly. The JD650 is the Yanmar YM-Series frame. The JD750 is more like the Yanmar F/FX-Series frame.


if the engine platform is that short, a V-twin would probably be the best swap option. Now the inherent problem with a v-twin is that it will probably be set to run at 3600rpm, where as the yanmar's rated engine speed is 2800 (or something significantly less than 3600). getting stuff to bolt-up may or may not be a deal breaker as well.

I have no idea if a longer stroke or larger bore version of the 2T80 exists, but I suspect not. Yanmar generally jumps up to 3 cylinders with smaller engines.

I started thinking a small super charger might be an easier way to go, and thought maybe an old smog pump might work. something like this would likely work better; https://www.amazon.com/Supercharger...ocphy=9017703&hvtargid=pla-978064682590&psc=1


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## pogobill

I've read about a 2G ECO-Governor for running the newer yanmar diesels at higher elevations. Know nothing about it, just read a little about it. Maybe one of the injector guys can offer some advise in regards to turning the fuel dawn a little... are you thinking you may be running a bit rich with the high altitude/ low oxygen?


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## bmaverick

Groo said:


> if the engine platform is that short, a V-twin would probably be the best swap option. Now the inherent problem with a v-twin is that it will probably be set to run at 3600rpm, where as the yanmar's rated engine speed is 2800 (or something significantly less than 3600). getting stuff to bolt-up may or may not be a deal breaker as well.
> 
> I have no idea if a longer stroke or larger bore version of the 2T80 exists, but I suspect not. Yanmar generally jumps up to 3 cylinders with smaller engines.


There is a 2T90 engine in the YM2210 family of machines, many of the excavators and plenty of the diesel generators. In an odd twist, Yanmar also put a 2TR20 in the YM2210 machines at some point. It's a bit different, but knowing this, it should also bolt up too. 

There is also a 2TR22 engine. Some think it's the 2T90, just under the new naming convention. This engine is found in the YM2200, HC2000 and other machines.

And lastly, the LARGEST of the Yanmar 2-cly engines. The 2TR27 in the YM2700. This engine shares much with the 2TR22 engine. Same heads and such, just a long stroke. 

Yanmar 2T90, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled
Displacement: 69.9 ci or 1.1 L 
Bore/Stroke: 3.54x3.54 inches or 90 x 90 mm 
Power: 21.7 hp or 16.2 kW 
Rated RPM: 2600

Yanmar 2T80, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled inline
Displacement: 52.1 ci or 0.9 L 
Bore/Stroke: 3.15x3.35 inches or 80 x 85 mm 
Power: 17 hp or 12.7 kW 
Compression: 22.5:1
Rated RPM: 2600 

Yanmar 2TR27, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled
Displacement: 81.5 ci or 1.3 L 
Bore/Stroke: 
Power: 26.6 hp or 19.8 kW 
Rated RPM: 2600 

A sibling engine of the 2TR27 could be the 2GM20 as well. This is the marine version of the same engine. There would be some differences with the output.


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## Groo

bmaverick said:


> There is a 2T90 engine in the YM2210 family of machines, many of the excavators and plenty of the diesel generators. In an odd twist, Yanmar also put a 2TR20 in the YM2210 machines at some point. It's a bit different, but knowing this, it should also bolt up too.
> 
> There is also a 2TR22 engine. Some think it's the 2T90, just under the new naming convention. This engine is found in the YM2200, HC2000 and other machines.
> 
> And lastly, the LARGEST of the Yanmar 2-cly engines. The 2TR27 in the YM2700. This engine shares much with the 2TR22 engine. Same heads and such, just a long stroke.
> 
> Yanmar 2T90, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled
> Displacement: 69.9 ci or 1.1 L
> Bore/Stroke: 3.54x3.54 inches or 90 x 90 mm
> Power: 21.7 hp or 16.2 kW
> Rated RPM: 2600
> 
> Yanmar 2T80, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled inline
> Displacement: 52.1 ci or 0.9 L
> Bore/Stroke: 3.15x3.35 inches or 80 x 85 mm
> Power: 17 hp or 12.7 kW
> Compression: 22.5:1
> Rated RPM: 2600
> 
> Yanmar 2TR27, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled
> Displacement: 81.5 ci or 1.3 L
> Bore/Stroke:
> Power: 26.6 hp or 19.8 kW
> Rated RPM: 2600
> 
> A sibling engine of the 2TR27 could be the 2GM20 as well. This is the marine version of the same engine. There would be some differences with the output.


The 2T90 would be the obvious choice if its the same basic block. I have no idea if it is though.


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## bmaverick

Groo said:


> The 2T90 would be the obvious choice if its the same basic block. I have no idea if it is though.


I too would favor the 2T90 over the 2TR27. There were so many made of the 2T90LE engines, it's a Yanmar staple for back then.


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## Ray Brueggemeier

Hey guys,
Thanks for all of the responses. I let this go for a while, but will look into the 2T90 and see if it may get close enough to bolting in. will post with results or direction
Ray


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## bmaverick

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> Hey guys,
> Thanks for all of the responses. I let this go for a while, but will look into the 2T90 and see if it may get close enough to bolting in. will post with results or direction
> Ray


Ray,

On another forum, there was heavy discussion about the 2T90 and the 2TR-- engine families. The 2T90 has a nice long stroke for providing power. That was one of the pluses mentioned. It does share "some" parts with a 2TR20A engine and others. And like mentioned before, it's in many machines. Even as Yanmar Marine engines as another engine number. The
2TR20, 2T90 and the 2QM20 are know engine swaps. The real question you need to know is, will it swap with a JD650 engine of 2T80. If it does, you have more than 1 engine choice.

*Yanmar 2QM20*
https://dealers.youboat.com/marine-enterprises-ltd/annonce-moteur-yanmar-2qm20-9889.html


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## winston

John Deere 850 is a 3t80, 650 2t80


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## bmaverick

winston said:


> John Deere 850 is a 3t80, 650 2t80


Thanks. Corrected the post. Fingers like to hit the 8 more often.


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## Groo

bmaverick said:


> There is a 2T90 engine in the YM2210 family of machines, many of the excavators and plenty of the diesel generators. In an odd twist, Yanmar also put a 2TR20 in the YM2210 machines at some point. It's a bit different, but knowing this, it should also bolt up too.
> 
> There is also a 2TR22 engine. Some think it's the 2T90, just under the new naming convention. This engine is found in the YM2200, HC2000 and other machines.
> 
> And lastly, the LARGEST of the Yanmar 2-cly engines. The 2TR27 in the YM2700. This engine shares much with the 2TR22 engine. Same heads and such, just a long stroke.
> 
> Yanmar 2T90, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled
> Displacement: 69.9 ci or 1.1 L
> Bore/Stroke: 3.54x3.54 inches or 90 x 90 mm
> Power: 21.7 hp or 16.2 kW
> Rated RPM: 2600
> 
> Yanmar 2T80, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled inline
> Displacement: 52.1 ci or 0.9 L
> Bore/Stroke: 3.15x3.35 inches or 80 x 85 mm
> Power: 17 hp or 12.7 kW
> Compression: 22.5:1
> Rated RPM: 2600
> 
> Yanmar 2TR27, diesel 2-cylinder, liquid-cooled
> Displacement: 81.5 ci or 1.3 L
> Bore/Stroke:
> Power: 26.6 hp or 19.8 kW
> Rated RPM: 2600
> 
> A sibling engine of the 2TR27 could be the 2GM20 as well. This is the marine version of the same engine. There would be some differences with the output.


odd how the nomenclature went from bore diameter for most Yanmars to hp rating.


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## bmaverick

Groo said:


> odd how the nomenclature went from bore diameter for most Yanmars to hp rating.


I could not dig up any reliable reference for the 2TR27 boreXstroke other than knowing it's a larger engine than the 2TR22 and the entire 2TR Engine Series.


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## Bob Driver

Is the blower mechanically driven, or hydraulically driven?


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## bmaverick

Bob Driver said:


> Is the blower mechanically driven, or hydraulically driven?


Blower as in the radiator fan? 

There is no blower on the air-intake on these machines.


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## bmaverick

He's at 9,000 feet. That's really pushing things.


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## bmaverick

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> I've got a newer to me John Deere 650 4wd tractor.
> 
> I live at 9000 ft and in the winter I use it to blow snow. The snow blower really slows the tractor down with any decent amount of snow. I've come up with 4 thoughts: bigger engine (do any 3 cyl come close to mounting up?), turbo the 2 cyl, electric motor for the blower (this is may be a cool but crazy project), leave it alone - it's 17hp, get over it.
> 
> Ray


Ray, 

Up at your elevation, what are others doing with their machines? I've read about people hooking up an O2 tank with hose to help inject oxygen into the intake manifold. This will improve performance. Vintage aircraft uses this trick to reach another 3K to 5K feet in a climb effort. Once there, they can throttle back the oxygen to hold at that altitude. Do people do this in your area too?


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## bmaverick

Ray, 

Another thought. Do people use air heaters on the intake to expand the air in winter for better compression. Here's a Dodge cummins version. The size may work for you, but the voltage is 24VDC. hmmm. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Diesel-Eng...odge-Cummins-Weichai-6-cylinder-/124260898171


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## Groo

bmaverick said:


> Ray,
> 
> Up at your elevation, what are others doing with their machines? I've read about people hooking up an O2 tank with hose to help inject oxygen into the intake manifold. This will improve performance. Vintage aircraft uses this trick to reach another 3K to 5K feet in a climb effort. Once there, they can throttle back the oxygen to hold at that altitude. Do people do this in your area too?


I'd think NOx would be easier.


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## bmaverick

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> Hey guys,
> Thanks for all of the responses. I let this go for a while, but will look into the 2T90 and see if it may get close enough to bolting in. will post with results or direction
> Ray


Ray, 

Some of the newer Yanmar's use an air-intake heater. P/N 119005-77051 
It looks nearly like the Dodge Cummins version I posted earlier. This one would work on 12VDC system like your JD650. 

Front









Back


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## Bob Driver

bmaverick said:


> Blower as in the radiator fan?
> 
> There is no blower on the air-intake on these machines.


He's having problems powering a *SNOWBLOWER*.... Perhaps there is a cheaper way to improve performance by looking at the torque, or rotational speed, of the auger/impeller rather than replacing an entire engine, or buying a new tractor as has been suggested?

In order to consider that feasibility, wouldn't it be nice to know if it's mechanical, or hydraulic driven? Single-stage, or a 2-stage* SNOWBLOWER?* Snow at 9,000' is powder, so it's probably not a matter of HP/torque as with wet snow, but rather auger/impeller rotational speed. I lived in Silverthorne, Colorado (elevation 9,000') for 8 years and I didn't know of anybody that ran single-stage *blowers.*...

If he's using a single-stage blower, a two-stage might be the answer and a hell of a lot cheaper than a bigger engine, or buying a new tractor


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## bmaverick

Bob Driver said:


> He's having problems powering a *SNOWBLOWER*.... Perhaps there is a cheaper way to improve performance by looking at the torque, or rotational speed, of the auger/impeller rather than replacing an entire engine, or buying a new tractor as has been suggested?
> 
> In order to consider that feasibility, wouldn't it be nice to know if it's mechanical, or hydraulic driven? Single-stage, or a 2-stage* SNOWBLOWER?* Snow at 9,000' is powder, so it's probably not a matter of HP/torque as with wet snow, but rather auger/impeller rotational speed. I lived in Silverthorne, Colorado (elevation 9,000') for 8 years and I didn't know of anybody that ran single-stage *blowers.*...
> 
> If he's using a single-stage blower, a two-stage might be the answer and a hell of a lot cheaper than a bigger engine, or buying a new tractor


Good insight. I'm clueless on snowblowers other than my father-in-law's big machine back in the day. 

Nice you once lived in a nose-bleed elevation. I would deaf because my ears would not pop up there.  

So, a good snow blower would help his cause. NICE. 

What else would work for the engine? Air intake heater? I've looked into that some. 
Then there was the tank with valve to bleed in some additional oxygen to the intake manifold. This was done in vintage aircraft. 

A friend of mine had a Ford truck with a 7.3L diesel. It didn't do well at high elevations. For gasoline, those engines need lower octane like 84 or 85. Not sure what diesel would need. 

There is a Yanmar person (Rock2610) who took his YM2610 and put an IHI turbo on it. He too was at a high elevation out west. I saved his build log just in case I need to do it too. The YM2500 = JD850. The YM4300 = JD1050 (both use the turbo). Both are related with the engine blocks. Thus, this family of engines can do the turbo. 

Bob, YOU ARE RIGHT. I just did a look up for the JD650 for the snowblower OE unit. Here are the details. 

60" Snow blower, front-mount John Deere 359, two-stage 
Clearing width: 60 inches [152 cm] 

Makes since as this tractor is more of a SCUT than a CUT machine.


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## Bob Driver

Same thing applies when a customer is complaining about their mower not giving a clean cut in really thick grass. It's usually not about being under powered because the OEMs do to much field testing. Spindle binding, belt slipping, trying to mow Bermudagrass, or tall fescue, at 1 1/2" cut height with 3" wide high lift mulching blades...

I'd love to sell/install a bigger engine every time I hear that complaint, but I would feel guilty. Instead, I use a laser tach on the clutch and spindle pulleys to take a look at rotational speed. Are they all the same across the deck? Are they turning at the right speed? What's the difference between clutch pulley speed and the spindle pulley speeds? Is the clutch slipping? Would dropping down an 1" on the spindle pulley diameters and increasing rotational speed cure the problem? Can't tell you the number of times that damn $20 tool has beat me out of a $1,400 engine replacement the customer was willing to pay









https://www.ebay.com/i/254391374332...MI5Mu0-fvc7QIV4R-tBh1e1QoKEAQYBSABEgLYLvD_BwE


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## Ray Brueggemeier

Thanks again for all of the replies. It is a 2 stage blower (359) that gets power off of the front pto. Oddly enough, I'm in Silverthorne, Ptarmigan to be exact. I don't think I have any slippage, but will check. It blows the powder pretty well, especially if I take smaller cuts. It's the heavier stuff that really chokes it. I usually blade things into 12-18" dense piles and take my time blowing it from there. 

Thanks for all of the input, you guys are very impressive.
Ray


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## Ray Brueggemeier

As for what others are doing - most get turbo'd machines. The elevation kills a diesel w/o it. I happened to win this guy on ebay - 1 bid, 1 winner. It was kind of an accident, bid starting offer on day 1 to keep an eye on it, had to tell my wife we might own a tractor as the week went on and no one else bid on it. Got a heck of a deal, blade, blower and heated cab. It's grown on me a bunch and I think I'll have it until one of us dies.


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## bmaverick

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> As for what others are doing - most get turbo'd machines. The elevation kills a diesel w/o it. I happened to win this guy on ebay - 1 bid, 1 winner. It was kind of an accident, bid starting offer on day 1 to keep an eye on it, had to tell my wife we might own a tractor as the week went on and no one else bid on it. Got a heck of a deal, blade, blower and heated cab. It's grown on me a bunch and I think I'll have it until one of us dies.


In another thread, another person has a 2-cly Yanmar as well. He's not keen on the loud popcorn engine noise. Our Farm and Fleet store sells a large and long diameter muffler. The hot gasses go thru the muffler right up the center. The trick is with the outer canister allowing to cool the hot gases. To help reduce the loud 2-cly engine popping, at the base of the muffler, make 3X 3/8-inch holes on one side of the diameter and another 3X on the base on the other side. 

Sort of 3X for this side (
and
Sort of 3X for this side ) 

This will allow cooler outside air at the muffler base to enter in the chamber and rise with the hot gases. It should tame down the loud engine exhaust. 

I only mention this because it could help with engine exhaust and flow better. When your JD650 is operating, a restricted exhaust may hamper the power of the machine. Letting it breath better could help engine operate better.


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## Ray Brueggemeier

Thanks BMaverick. I appreciate the idea


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## Bob Driver

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> As for what others are doing - most get turbo'd machines. The elevation kills a diesel w/o it. I happened to win this guy on ebay - 1 bid, 1 winner. It was kind of an accident, bid starting offer on day 1 to keep an eye on it, had to tell my wife we might own a tractor as the week went on and no one else bid on it. Got a heck of a deal, blade, blower and heated cab. It's grown on me a bunch and I think I'll have it until one of us dies.


Small world Ray.... I lived directly across Highway 9 from what is now the Sinclair station at the intersection of 3rd Avenue. The Old Dillion Inn and the Mint Saloon were both going strong and both were legendary watering holes for locals at the time. That would have been 1978-1986. My house was one of the very first houses built in downtown Silverthorne when they built the Dillon Dam. It was destroyed in a explosion/fire when they cut the gas main that crosses under Highway 9 when they widened it from a 2-lane to the current 4-lane in the Summer of 1982.


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## Ray Brueggemeier

That's a crazy story Bob! Mint is still going, the odi has been out of biz for about a decade. Not sure when you were through last, but a lot is changing there right now. It's almost all new condos and commercial space. They're trying to slow it down to 25 mph to increase the foot traffic.

Take care!
Ray


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## Bob Driver

Ray Brueggemeier said:


> That's a crazy story Bob! Mint is still going, the odi has been out of biz for about a decade. Not sure when you were through last, but a lot is changing there right now. It's almost all new condos and commercial space. They're trying to slow it down to 25 mph to increase the foot traffic.
> 
> Take care!
> Ray


Yep..... Silverthorne was about 1,200 people when I first moved to Summit County. I actually knew the lady who's family owned the ranch that is now the town. Don't know if it's still there, but there used to be a big old white 2-story 1890's house that sat about 1/2 way Ptarmigan. That was her families ranch house and the valley below, which is now Silverthorne, is where they grazed the cattle. Highway 9 was originally the stagecoach road that ran from Dillon to Kremmling through their ranch. The Eastbound bore of the Tunnel opened the first year I moved there. That was 42 years ago......


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