# Plastic gears on starter motors? Grrr!



## Shade Tree Wrench

Hi All,

I'm a newbie so, once again hi. 

Has anyone had this problem and, most importantly, found a solution??? I have a 1988 (I think) Bolens 1600 with a 16 HP Briggs Intek engine.

In Briggs, infinite wisdom, they decided to use solid aluminum flywheels. To keep the steel starter gear from destroying the flywheel, they changed the starter gear to plastic?!?!

I understand that this is better than damaging the flywheel, but... Since the starter is buried under all that sheet metal and below the frame, it takes me about 2 hours to pull it...removing the sheet metal shroud(s), then loosening the motor mounts, using a floor jack to lift the engine until the starter is clear of the frame (this twists and strains the drive shaft!) and, in my case, I have to use a porta-power's spreader to lift the starter side of the engine, that last little bit. 
Right now, it' snowing and 10 degrees. Needless to say, I'm not feeling "giddy" at the thought of pulling the beast. (I find that I can't do alot of this wearing gloves)

When I have to crank the engine, a little, more than usual (Cold starting in winter) the engine will, often, start to catch and fail several times before it finally starts.) Occasionally, but too often, IMHO, (twice in one year, now!) the solenoid begins to release and then, quickly, re-engages. This can and has resulted in the starter gear being destroyed.

Has anyone found an after market 16 tooth starter gear that, still, protects the flywheel but doesn't fail at the drop of a hat?

I have considered trying to find a steel flywheel, to swap out...but that sounds like an undertaking I don't want to tackle. Even if I could find something, I imagine that after the change to aluminum, Briggs, engineering(?) made some changes to the engine to accommodate the lighter flywheel...unless they, also, have an aluminum with a steel outer ring?

Anyhow...any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim


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## bensdad

I have NO answers to your questions. Just wanted to express my growing fear of taking a starter/solenoid out of my Uniloader. Your post made me see demons!


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## jhngardner367

Welcome to the forum ! Yes,that is a common problem for them,and has been,for years.
Unfortunately,no one has a better starter gear available,and a cast-iron flywheel won't fit.


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## Shade Tree Wrench

Last summer, I had to pull one from my Case 646. I don't remember all of the details...I'm old...but I ended up going in from the front, underneath. I did alot of guessing, but removed and disconnected several things, maybe a tie rod? (some unnecessarily). I think I had to use a wide range of sockets, extensions and combination wrenches for the various bolts. Removal was difficult, took about 3 hours...again lots of guessing...and I was filthy. 

Replacement went pretty well, as I remember. I know that I took pictures during the removal and while I waited for the starter to be rebuilt, I did alot of cleaning so that the filthy part wasn't repeated.

It wasn't a joy, but not the worse thing that I've had to do.

Good luck,
Jim


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## Shade Tree Wrench

Thanks, that's what I figgered. It's too bad when an executive who has never had dirty hands makes these kinds of decisions. The, only plus side is that stuff like this keeps small engine shops in business, though I doubt they enjoy doing this either...Then why did Bolens decide to "bury" the thing like they did?

As I said...Grrr!


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## jhngardner367

Try to replace the starter on a JD317 Kohler,some time! REAL FUN!


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## GTcollector

You have other problems, that's why your eating starter gears, look at timing first, but don't overlook battery and good solid leads


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## Shade Tree Wrench

Hi,

Thanks. I know that the battery is on it's last legs. Maybe it's not strong enough to hold the solenoid. It's supposed to hit 50 on Monday. Guess I'll take care of the starter and "pop" for the new battery at the same time. Fortunately, the tractor was designed to use a car battery. I get some real cold cranking from it.
Jim


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## jhngardner367

Gt, The Briggs engine in that model has fixed timing.
So,unless he sheared the timing key ,it should be ok.


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## GTcollector

jhngardner367 said:


> Gt, The Briggs engine in that model has fixed timing.
> So,unless he sheared the timing key ,it should be ok.


Timing key huh, is that like Mr Haneys pore key, ha, I know what you mean, but in the same sense I should have said "adjust the valves", which will "effect" timing. On all those OHV engines if the valves are out of adjustment the valves dont open or close when the piston is in the proper place in the 4 stroke cycle. Bad things can happen, first, it makes the engine hard to start due to (partially)closed valves during the exhaust stroke, this will quickly kill a starter, it will also not allow heat to dissipate from a air cooled engine and causing a engine to seize or a cylinder to "drop" on a twin. For 12.00 you can buy the Chilton small engine repair book that can explain these things, good investment.


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## jhngardner367

LOL! I knew what you meant,my friend...just a bit of teasing.
I'm thinking along those same lines,in that since the engine was apart,it might be 1,or 2 teeth off.


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## GTcollector

jhngardner367 said:


> LOL! I knew what you meant,my friend...just a bit of teasing.
> I'm thinking along those same lines,in that since the engine was apart,it might be 1,or 2 teeth off.


If the woodruff key holding the the flywheel on gets bent, it doesn't have to break, it will effect timing as well, but there is no way to put it on a "few teeth off", as both the shaft and flywheel have a slot for the key that lines up to the same spot, unless key is bent or broken


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## jhngardner367

No,that's not what I was talking about. I had thought that the engine had been apart,and that it might have been assembled a bit off. 
It's my mistake,Sorry.
After re-reading the post, I am wondering if the solenoid is getting weak,or if the battery is weak/too small,or the cables not large enough.
I had a B/S twin that ate starter drives for breakfast,and after replacing it 4 times in one year, I replaced the battery with a larger one.
It helped,but still did it,occasionally,so I went to larger cables,and used a solenoid from a 1979 Ford truck.
I had the tractor for 3 more years,and it never tore up a starter gear after that.


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## Shade Tree Wrench

*Next: New battery*

First, thanks everybody. 

I'm going for the new batter, first...actually in a few minutes. I bought the tractor used, last summer. (a 1988 with 300 hours! It looked new and I'm ashamed to admit that my garage is too cluttered to keep it inside this winter) I don't know the age of the battery. When it sits, for a week or two, outside in the winter, it lacks the sauce and the engine turns over, a little, slowly. Instead of playing around with a float charger, etc. I'll do this right. 

I changed the starter yesterday...5 hours!...back to GRRRR!...I disconnect the neg terminal on the battery, take off the piece of sheet metal covering the starter and then pull the engine mount bolts on the starter side and loosen the other two. (Those things are a beast to remove. Getting a wrench on the bolt heads from the bottom, would be a challenge to a contortionist!) Then I put a chain on the lift hook on the starter side only and, gently, lift/rock the engine as far as it will go, (tractor, wheels up) which is about 1/2" short. Finally, I use the small spreader on a port-a-power between the frame and the plate that the engine is bolted to, underneath. Sadly, this is my third time, changing the starter gear! The first time I kept a close eye on the drive shaft and the other things, so I'm not worried about expensive bad things happening when I do this lift.

Pulling the starter is, pretty, straight forward, though that rear bolt takes alot of patience.

I'll let you know how the old battery checks out but will get the new one, anyways. Seems to be a no-brainer if it won't hold a full charge for a week or two.

Thanks again,
Jim

PS: I did an Ohm check, across the cables with the battery removed. It was 0.


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## Shade Tree Wrench

*Update*

Well, I got the new battery. The old one tested, not bad, not great, so I went ahead and bought the new one.

It didn't turn over like I think it should...although, whenever I'm in one of these situations, I start seeing problems that aren't, really there. It looks like the valves will be next, that can never hurt. I have the Briggs service manual (a friend gave it to me) and, hopefully, it will tell me what I need to do.

Opinion...it's too cold to jump into this now. What are the risks with snow removal before I can do the valve adjustment? Since it's cold, overheating is unlikely and, hopefully, we're getting to the end of all this snow.

I'm not sure if I was able to upload a couple of pictures. If so, I took on an "interesting" project. I adapted a Deere 4 way plow (which I hadn't realized was adapted by the previous owner to fit his tractor) to mine. I tapped into the Eaton auxiliary output, piped it into a Brand 4-way with, one float position joy stick, (I fabricated a mounting plate for the valve) and thenabricated a set of mounting plates to attach it and...oh yea, guess that's it.

Oversites include: too much flow for those little cylinders. I have a restricter on the dump side of the joy stick, which helps, and if there's time, this summer, I'd like to hard pipe, along the frame, with short hoses from the valve to the pipe and from the cylinders to the pipe. All those hoses, while functional, are ugly. I'm, also, considering skipping the quick connects. I put the plow on in late fall and take it off in late spring. Those things are pricey and hard to work. (My former neighbor grew up on a farm and was a defensive end for the Bears...and he had trouble!). If I had it to do over, I'd skip tapping into the hydro and bought a 12 volt motor/pump like they use on truck plows and mount it up front. Then I'd, either, use the joy stick (only two hoses) or get the remote electrical controls and have hoses, up front only.

Glad that this is a hobby. I invested, way, too much time so that I could angle a plow from the seat!

Well, back to the grind.

Jim


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## GTcollector

Even in the cold the engine will heat up quickly if your using it to push snow for very long. Dont run it for more than 30 minutes without letting it cool down. The problem you have is not all timing or solenoid like the other guy said, the reason a larger solenoid worked for him and may work for you is it is allowing more power to the starter, BUT there are still other issues. I surmise, that with the valves out of adjustment, the intake stroke is suffering as well. With the engine out of time it is losing power because the valve maybe opening slightly/partially during the compression stroke, there may also be carb issues, such as dirt or sediment as well as needle seats or air/fuel adjustment, which would be impossible to fix with out adjusting the valves first. search you tube of "ZippoVarga briggs valve adjustment", it's a 15 minute job after you seen the video a few times.


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## Cublover

Shade Tree Wrench said:


> Well, I got the new battery. The old one tested, not bad, not great, so I went ahead and bought the new one.
> 
> It didn't turn over like I think it should...although, whenever I'm in one of these situations, I start seeing problems that aren't, really there. It looks like the valves will be next, that can never hurt. I have the Briggs service manual (a friend gave it to me) and, hopefully, it will tell me what I need to do.
> 
> Opinion...it's too cold to jump into this now. What are the risks with snow removal before I can do the valve adjustment? Since it's cold, overheating is unlikely and, hopefully, we're getting to the end of all this snow.
> 
> I'm not sure if I was able to upload a couple of pictures. If so, I took on an "interesting" project. I adapted a Deere 4 way plow (which I hadn't realized was adapted by the previous owner to fit his tractor) to mine. I tapped into the Eaton auxiliary output, piped it into a Brand 4-way with, one float position joy stick, (I fabricated a mounting plate for the valve) and thenabricated a set of mounting plates to attach it and...oh yea, guess that's it.
> 
> Oversites include: too much flow for those little cylinders. I have a restricter on the dump side of the joy stick, which helps, and if there's time, this summer, I'd like to hard pipe, along the frame, with short hoses from the valve to the pipe and from the cylinders to the pipe. All those hoses, while functional, are ugly. I'm, also, considering skipping the quick connects. I put the plow on in late fall and take it off in late spring. Those things are pricey and hard to work. (My former neighbor grew up on a farm and was a defensive end for the Bears...and he had trouble!). If I had it to do over, I'd skip tapping into the hydro and bought a 12 volt motor/pump like they use on truck plows and mount it up front. Then I'd, either, use the joy stick (only two hoses) or get the remote electrical controls and have hoses, up front only.
> 
> Glad that this is a hobby. I invested, way, too much time so that I could angle a plow from the seat!
> 
> Well, back to the grind.
> 
> Jim


 Nice clean looking rig. The power tilt is a little too involved for my taste though.
my plow has a cut off tire iron that I drop into the hole I want. I don't really need to tilt the blade much.

Back on topic. We decided to mount a Cub Cadet starter/generator on one machine after 3 starters self destructed in a summer. Frank traded it away over the winter.


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## GTcollector

GTcollector said:


> Even in the cold the engine will heat up quickly if your using it to push snow for very long. Dont run it for more than 30 minutes without letting it cool down. The problem you have is not all timing or solenoid like the other guy said, the reason a larger solenoid worked for him and may work for you is it is allowing more power to the starter, BUT there are still other issues. I surmise, that with the valves out of adjustment, the intake stroke is suffering as well. With the engine out of time it is losing power because the valve maybe opening slightly/partially during the compression stroke, there may also be carb issues, such as dirt or sediment as well as needle seats or air/fuel adjustment, which would be impossible to fix with out adjusting the valves first. search you tube of "ZippoVarga briggs valve adjustment", it's a 15 minute job after you seen the video a few times.


Well that engine in the Bolens doesn't have OHV valves that you can adjust like the briggs, that looks like a Kohler Magnum 18 or 20, and sure you don't leave the deck on while pushing snow, probably not a good idea, water, salt, = lots of rust. If that is a Briggs INTEK engine it's like one I've never seen, might be the engine tin covering it


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## jhngardner367

How long are you having to roll the engine over to start it cold ? Does it start faster warm ? ALso,make sure the clutch/brake pedal is pushed all the way,so there's no load from the belts.
You may also want to use 10w30 oil,in cold weather(below 40*f),and sae 30 ,in warmer weather.
Briggs engines were always hard on the plastic gears,but they used them to save the flywheel from damage . In the flat-head engines,the only way of "adjusting" the valves was to take metal from the stem end,very slowly,and carefully,until the clearance is right.Usually only needed when replacing a valve.
Can you post the engine model,type,and serial # ?


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## GTcollector

jhngardner367 said:


> How long are you having to roll the engine over to start it cold ? Does it start faster warm ? ALso,make sure the clutch/brake pedal is pushed all the way,so there's no load from the belts.
> You may also want to use 10w30 oil,in cold weather(below 40*f),and sae 30 ,in warmer weather.
> Briggs engines were always hard on the plastic gears,but they used them to save the flywheel from damage . In the flat-head engines,the only way of "adjusting" the valves was to take metal from the stem end,very slowly,and carefully,until the clearance is right.Usually only needed when replacing a valve.
> Can you post the engine model,type,and serial # ?


Yeah I'd like to see the engine model/type/code as well, It might be a Briggs engine, but I thought all INTEKs had OHVs and this one doesn't look like it has OHVs


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## Shade Tree Wrench

Hi Everybody,

Finally, a break from constant snow. Starting to tackle other things. So far, the starter has continued to live. The Briggs numbers are: Mod. 402447, Type 122001 and Code 89031412. For winter, I'm running 10W30. Starting at 25 F degrees and lower, usually takes 30 seconds at full choke and about 1/4 to 1/3 throttle. Disaster strikes when it starts to catch, then doesn't, then does. I think that the solenoid starts to back out and then activates again. When the gear is partially engaged, it isn't strong enough to handle the torque. Once it's warm, it starts with just a bump of the starter. 

Just after the cold start, it runs rough but, as I back off on the choke, it begins to smooth out, but not all of the way. After a minute or so, I begin advancing the throttle and at, around 3/4 throttle, it smooths out. I tried using less choke, but it wants the whole thing. When I reduce throttle to idle, it gets, a bit, rough. I can improve this by re-adjusting the carb. It seems to need tweaking, depending on ambient temperature...different for 25 and 10. Since I don't use it throttled down to full idle, I have been living with it.

Last summer, I did a rebuild on the carb. which was like new, absolutely, no corrosion, soaked and blew out all of the orifices and then tuned it. I stopped adjusting using my ear and bought a "Tiny Tach" and set everything to specification. I had no issues with it, cutting grass, but the idle, always, seems to have a bit of a mind of it's own.

So, my thinking, right now is that there's some sort of a gremlin in this engine and I will have to live with it. It isn't terrible, just annoying. By the way, I'm burning fresh 87 octane fuel with a little additive cocktail. I mix 16 oz of Sea Foam with 2 oz. of Star-Tron, enzyme treatment and mix it with the gas at 1 oz. per gallon. This has proven to be fantastic for all of my other small engines.

Thank you, once again.
Jim


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## jhngardner367

Is there any wiggle in the throttle shaft,at all ? Any wiggle(side-to-side,or up and down)can cause these symptoms. I've got one,here that was doing the same thing,and I put bushings in the throttle shaft,and it runs sweet,now,and I no longer have to adjust it,to smooth it out.
It also starts better,cold or warm.
Also, there are 2 starters listed for it. One has a 3&5/8 " case length,and the other has a 4&3/8 " case length(measured from base plate to front case),with the longer one being the "heavy-duty" model.
I use the longer one on mine and it definitely makes a difference,when starting !


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## GTcollector

Also check and see if it has a gas tank filter and the condition of the rubber grommet going into the tank a clogged filter or a cracked grommet may cause problems when cold


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## Shade Tree Wrench

*Could be the throttle bearing*

It's too cold once again for bare hands work. Still, I was able to reach under the air filter/breather housing and wiggle the carb's shaft. There was a bit of motion though I couldn't tell if it was the governor attachment plate. Once I can avoid frost bite, I'll pull things apart and check the bushings and valve clearance.

I have the larger starter and, only, dislike it when I'm removing it. Clearing the flywheel is, always, 1/4" short! My world for 1/4"!

Fuel doesn't seem to be a problem. I rebuilt the fuel pump...just because...when I did the carb. The filter is okay, I bypassed it for a couple seconds before the rebuild. Also, I checked the main jet and it was clear and it's the low altitude jet. 

As of now, I'm leaning towards the throttle bushings and the latest NOAA forecast is expecting decent temperatures Thursday and Friday. Subject to change...of course. As an aside, I defend meteorologists more than most...I was a weather guesser in the Navy...Heroes when you guess right, bums when you don't! Kind of like when you try to fix something, huh?

I'll keep you posted. I, always try to fix things "right" not "good enough".
Jim


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## jhngardner367

Just so you know,you probably won't find any throttle shaft bushings listed .
I made my own,and bought a new throttle shaft,then carefully fitted/trimmed the "bushing" to a press fit.
If I recall , I used a couple of spent .22 casings .


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