# Craftsman GT 3000 - Blown starter



## Flightsport

I have been given a Craftsman GT 3000 with a Kohler 23 Hp V Twin. The other day I got the front end of the mower stuck and had to shut the engine down and tow it out with my truck. When I went to start it again the starter would not engage. Here is a link to a video. Is it a blown starter? Bad starter solenoid? I am new to lawn tractors, is this something I can fix myself? Or am I looking at bringing it to a pro? 

Any suggestions would be a huge help! Thanks! 

Here is the video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3c1ye6WYkU]YouTube - ‪MVI_2823.AVI‬&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## farmertim

Hi Flightsport, it seems like the starter is engaging but there isn't enough power to turn against the compression.
Charge up the battery and try again, if it still does the same pull out both spark plugs and try and turn it over again, once it spins freely put the plugs back and try again.
Cheers:beer:
:aussie:


----------



## Mickey

Does seem like you are down on electrical power. In addition to charging the battery, take a close look at ALL the connections between the battery and starter. You might want to take a few voltage reading to help make a determination of problem. Battery voltage before/after charging, voltage at input and output of starter solenoid.

As a side note, there are 2 different starter designs used on these engines and it might help if we know which one you have. (See other thread about starter problem i.e. thread concerning CV22 engine.


----------



## Flightsport

Thanks for the replies. I have charged the battery a couple times now. I've even used the "jump start" function on the charger and attempted starting that way with the same result. It does appear that the starter isn't getting the juice it needs. Could there be some other problem? Is the next step replacing the starter assembly? Or just the solenoid? Can you replace one without the other? Am I better off just throwing this thing on a trailer and bringing it to a pro? Frustrated....


----------



## wjjones

Flightsport said:


> Thanks for the replies. I have charged the battery a couple times now. I've even used the "jump start" function on the charger and attempted starting that way with the same result. It does appear that the starter isn't getting the juice it needs. Could there be some other problem? Is the next step replacing the starter assembly? Or just the solenoid? Can you replace one without the other? Am I better off just throwing this thing on a trailer and bringing it to a pro? Frustrated....



Could the muffler be stuffed with mud, or water in the wiring, etc to keep from releasing compression to turn over? I am thinking mud when you say stuck i cant view video because i am on slooowww dial-up..


----------



## Flightsport

The "stuck" part came when I almost tipped over to my left as I drove along a drop-off. I immediately shut the mower down and hopped off. Standing behind the tractor I pulled the rear hard to the right by hand in order to try backing straight up. The motor fired right up but the tires couldn't get traction, they just spun. So I shut down again in hopes of finding something to put beneath the tires. When attempting to restart the tractor the starter wouldn't turn over, just clicking. Fortunately, It turned over once more, allowing me to drive it to the garage, where it sits now. 

Anything in those details sound like it could have caused starter damage?


----------



## Country Boy

As was stated above, try pulling the spark plugs and see if it turns over. Its possible there is oil in the cylinders that is causing it to be hydrolocked. Fluids can't be compressed like air, so the piston can't move far enough to let the crankshaft turn past TDC. I've seen that a lot on units that have been tipped too far (or sometimes all the way over).

If there is fluid in the cylinders, removing the spark plugs and cranking it over for 10-15 seconds should blow it all out. You may have to install new plugs or clean off any fluid on them with brake cleaner or carb cleaner. A wet plug won't fire.


----------



## Flightsport

Thanks for all the suggestions. I did in fact take out the spark plugs and after a few tries it was able to push through the compression and turn over. As suggested I held it like that for a good 15 seconds. I repeated that once more and put the plugs back in. After several attempts it finally pushed through and fired right up but after shutting down and reattempting it still seems to be in the same condition. Could it be a weak battery? I am going to abandon the idea of the battery charger, maybe the battery may be old enough ('07 sticker on it) it just can't hold adequate cold cranking amps anymore. So, I'm off to Sears for a new Battery, see if that makes a difference. Here is another vid:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apR9dp0HJCE]YouTube - ‪Kohler 23 HP, Still won't fire‬&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## wjjones

Flightsport said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions. I did in fact take out the spark plugs and after a few tries it was able to push through the compression and turn over. As suggested I held it like that for a good 15 seconds. I repeated that once more and put the plugs back in. After several attempts it finally pushed through and fired right up but after shutting down and reattempting it still seems to be in the same condition. Could it be a weak battery? I am going to abandon the idea of the battery charger, maybe the battery may be old enough ('07 sticker on it) it just can't hold adequate cold cranking amps anymore. So, I'm off to Sears for a new Battery, see if that makes a difference. Here is another vid:
> 
> YouTube - ‪Kohler 23 HP, Still won't fire‬&rlm;



Yep i would go with the battery first since it is that old i just had to replace mine this year as well. I got the big briggs battery from TSC it is 420 ca, and 350 cca for $43.. it had the best warranty out of what other batteries i had looked at..


----------



## dangeroustoys56

it couldve been hydro locked when it was tilted over - it turns freely now by hand? Id try the new battery ( its old enough) - its possible the starter needs a rebuild or replacement if it still acts up - you might want to check and make sure the starter turns freely and the indexer ( starter gear)returns back to the lowered position when released - ive had some that wouldnt return and locked the ring gear.


----------



## Mickey

Come on guys, don't be a parts changer. Find the source of the problem before spending money.

From the description and watching the video, 2 things come to mind, bad solenoid or worn/stuck brushes on the starter.

Don't see where my suggestion for taking a few voltage reading has taken place. For sure that would help isolate the problem. Big voltage drop across the solenoid would indicate it is a fault. Near battery voltage at the starter would indicate a problem here.

Swapping parts is an expensive way to isolate problems. The lessons learned from true trouble shooting are a valuable low cost method of gaining knowledge. But that is just me talking.


----------



## wjjones

Mickey said:


> Come on guys, don't be a parts changer. Find the source of the problem before spending money.
> 
> From the description and watching the video, 2 things come to mind, bad solenoid or worn/stuck brushes on the starter.
> 
> Don't see where my suggestion for taking a few voltage reading has taken place. For sure that would help isolate the problem. Big voltage drop across the solenoid would indicate it is a fault. Near battery voltage at the starter would indicate a problem here.
> 
> Swapping parts is an expensive way to isolate problems. The lessons learned from true trouble shooting are a valuable low cost method of gaining knowledge. But that is just me talking.



What type, and where is the best place to get a 12v style voltmeter for power equipment? I have one for the house current but not 12v stuff...


----------



## farmertim

a simple digital multi-meter will do the trick from Tandy stores (do you have them there?). I agree with Mickey, eliminate the things you can without having to replace parts, if you take a logical approach to troubleshooting (and sometimes asking on here for further advice from all you gurus) then with a little luck we can get going again.

Cheers:beer:
:aussie:


----------



## Flightsport

Thanks again for all the suggestions. Mickey, you are quite right, I have not done the proper troubleshooting. Unfortunately, I dont think I'll have the time for it either. I am still at square one. After trying the hydraulic lock solution I moved to replacing the battery, (it was time anyway). Now when I get back from my appointments today, I may look at putting the multimeter on it. I think I will be in the same boat as Jones and have to go buy a 12v meter. (and I believe Tandy is Radio Shack in the States). 

Mickey, anyway you could give me even MORE detailed instructions as to exactly how/where to hold the probes when conducting the elec tests? Any further help would be appreciated. Thanks again. Mike


----------



## Mickey

As Tim said any multimeter can do the job. How much you want to spend is up to you. Can be had at almost any place where auto "parts" can be found. Always Harbor Freight and Radio Shack as Tim suggested. Can always find low cost digital multimeters at HF on sale in the $5 range. I have several including one I paid ~$150 for.

Mike taking a few voltage reading takes less time than removing the battery. Simplest way to take readings is make connection to ground with one probe and use the other probe to take read at point of interest. Digital meters handle both positive and negative voltages.

For the solenoid one of the large cables should be from the battery. A reading here should be same as at battery when little/no current flowing. If you take a reading here when the starter is engaged, any voltage lower than the battery indicates the loss in either the cable or connections. Taking a reading on the output side of the solenoid will tell you how good the current carrying contacts are. There should be very little drop in voltage between in and out side of the solenoid. Again test voltage at the starter. It should be close to reading taken up-stream. Another reading that is good to get when starter issues are at hand is to take a reading on the small wire connected to the solenoid. This is the connection from the starter switch. It should be at 0 volts when starter not actuated and at battery voltage when actuated. You can save time be taking reading between 2 points of interest instead of take 2 different readings between points and ground. Case in point, measure across the solenoid. Ideally reading should be 0 volts. Anything higher indicated resistance between those points.

As you get more comfortable with using the meter you may want to start using the resistance function. Lots of thing to be gained from using a meter to check various electrical functions.

For those not real comfortable to things electric and electronic, voltage represents pressure. Some times it helps to equate voltage with air or water under pressure which you may be more comfortable with. Case in point is with thoughts/discussions about battery charging. Sometimes read all about the "magical" things voltage regulators do about controlling charge current. They do nothing to control charge current directly, they control voltage. Think of siphoning water between 2 containers. Water only flows from container with higher water level (i.e. more pressure) to container with lower water level. As water levels get closer to one another, flow rate decreases and when they are the same, no water flow. Same with charging a lead acid battery.


----------



## dangeroustoys56

I never said replace anything - BUT getting near 5 years is stretching it for a battery - starter motors can be rebuilt for half the price of a new one . Ive had a couple tractors literally lock the flywheel when the starter gear broke and jammed the flywheel .

If the motor turns over, it narrows it down to the starter possibly - could be the flywheel key if the crank was jammed when it hit - the ign switch and solenoid work - everything worked before the ditch problem - if they didnt then it could be a simple fuse check first, then if it still didnt work then check the ign switch and solenoid - ign switches and solenoids take the most abuse .

By what i saw on the video- im thinking battery ( twins are hard on batteries) , starter motor ( twins are hard on starters) or motor itself ( when it got stuck).


----------



## Mickey

First off, forgive me if I'm getting a little mixed up with a similar problem in another thread, Kohler vert twin, starter issue.

To recap what we've been told. Mower got high centered, engine shut off via the key. Since then there has been starting issues but engine has been started a few times since then. This rules out hyd lock and sheared flywheel key kinds of things.

Just listened to the 2nd video again. Sure would like to get an answer to my question about which style of starter is on this engine. Is the solenoid attached to the starter? from video it sounds like it might be. Right now I'm feeling more confident this is a solenoid problem. I've recently had to address solenoid issues with my Kohler twin. The stated symptoms and sounds in video are similar to what I experienced. 

Peak power needs for starting an engine is determined by displacement and compression ratio. If anything, multi-cyl engines reduce peak power demands as the compression forces are divided between the cyls. The multi-cyl engines smooth out the peak loads. All I say about batteries is, my 8 yr old Cub still using the original battery. My old Bolens has a twin and the battery in it is a lot older than 5 yrs old. Still lots of energy to start the engine on both tractors.


----------



## wjjones

Mickey said:


> First off, forgive me if I'm getting a little mixed up with a similar problem in another thread, Kohler vert twin, starter issue.
> 
> To recap what we've been told. Mower got high centered, engine shut off via the key. Since then there has been starting issues but engine has been started a few times since then. This rules out hyd lock and sheared flywheel key kinds of things.
> 
> Just listened to the 2nd video again. Sure would like to get an answer to my question about which style of starter is on this engine. Is the solenoid attached to the starter? from video it sounds like it might be. Right now I'm feeling more confident this is a solenoid problem. I've recently had to address solenoid issues with my Kohler twin. The stated symptoms and sounds in video are similar to what I experienced.
> 
> Peak power needs for starting an engine is determined by displacement and compression ratio. If anything, multi-cyl engines reduce peak power demands as the compression forces are divided between the cyls. The multi-cyl engines smooth out the peak loads. All I say about batteries is, my 8 yr old Cub still using the original battery. My old Bolens has a twin and the battery in it is a lot older than 5 yrs old. Still lots of energy to start the engine on both tractors.



Sorry guys i kinda hijacked this thread by asking about the volt meter i may have created some confusion......

This is too get back on topic for Flightsport..

Craftsman GT 3000 - Blown starter 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been given a Craftsman GT 3000 with a Kohler 23 Hp V Twin. The other day I got the front end of the mower stuck and had to shut the engine down and tow it out with my truck. When I went to start it again the starter would not engage. Here is a link to a video. Is it a blown starter? Bad starter solenoid? I am new to lawn tractors, is this something I can fix myself? Or am I looking at bringing it to a pro? 

Any suggestions would be a huge help! Thanks! 

The first post has a video also...


----------



## farmertim

Hey wjjones, its all good I think. Flightsport did ask where he should be checking with the multimeter and I know that I am having some of my memory cells jogged by reading the technical stuff.

Thanks for all of the information guys, you're helping more than one person out!!!
cheers:beer:
:aussie:


----------



## Mickey

wjjones said:


> Sorry guys i kinda hijacked this thread by asking about the volt meter i may have created some confusion......
> 
> This is too get back on topic for Flightsport..


Personally don't see a problem in your prior post. I suggested the use of such equipment so some knowledge could be gained to help isolate the problem. Perfectly legit question to ask about where to buy same.

Yep, we do need to get the problem figured out to help another member.


----------



## wjjones

Thankyou guys i just wanted to be sure i didnt mess his thread up...


----------



## jhngardner367

Hey,Mickey, I just looked at the second video,and that's a kohler pro series.It looks a lot like the ones you posted,in the other thread,with the starter-mounted solenoid. From the sound of the clicking,and hardley any movement of the flywheel,it sounds a lot like a bad starter.If the battery was weak,and he kept starting/shutting it off,could the solenoid have stayed locked,and fried itself?


----------



## Mickey

Some of you may remember my thread from about a month ago. Solenoid problem i.e. bad contacts. Tired a band-aid first and that didn't last. New aftermarket solenoid and all is back working like new. Even in spite of 8 yr old battery and twin cyl. :lmao: :yumyum

This problem is fresh in my mind. from all the various posts with sim problem, must have been something in the drinking water recently.


----------



## Paul40

Checking all of the connections should be first on the list. Should be done periodically as part of regular preventive maintenance anyway. Regarding the state of the battery, charge it up and wait for at least 30 min., then check for voltage. For a battery in good shape, you should get at least 12.6 volts. 12 volts would only give you a 50% charge. Time to replace. 

Checking line voltage without a load will only give you a partial picture. You can have a bad connection with no load, but when you have a large current draw like a starter, a bad connection will drop that voltage on the far end right down. If possible, have someone operate the starter while you check the voltate. Start by checking at the battery, then follow the wire to one, then the other side of the solonoid, then to the starter. Make sure you take your measurement at the studs instead of the connectors.

You can also take a set of jumper cables and touch the positive directly to the starter stud after connecting ground to ground, bypassing everything else. If the starter won't crank over, you have a starter problem.

I've never had to replace a starter on a small engine, but with cars, I've found it cheaper to take it in for repair than to buy new.


----------



## Mickey

jhngardner367 said:


> Hey,Mickey, I just looked at the second video,and that's a kohler pro series.It looks a lot like the ones you posted,in the other thread,with the starter-mounted solenoid. From the sound of the clicking,and hardley any movement of the flywheel,it sounds a lot like a bad starter.If the battery was weak,and he kept starting/shutting it off,*could the solenoid have stayed locked,and fried itself*?


Overlooked this yesterday and thought I'd respond now.

If solenoid is attached, the actions are as follows. First action is solenoid shifts starter gear to engage with flywheel. Only after starter is fully engaged does the solenoid pass current on to the starter. When signal power removed from solenoid power to starter motor is broken and starter gear withdrawn from flywheel.

With this action you will hear the action of starter gear engaging the flywheel but if electrical contact is bad, little to no power is passed to the starter.

It may be possible that starter gear can get jammed with the flywheel but I've not seen this happen but my exposure to this kind of problem is limited. Due to some play and spring loading I doubt that with jammed starter gear, power to starter all the time could happen. If starter were to jam, one would not hear the action the solenoid normally makes. Also if this were to happen, turning the key off would have no affect on removing power from the starter.

Looking at the pic one can see the plunger. It is connected to the shift fork and when the solenoid is activated the plunger pulls in and thus engaging the starter to the flywheel. Only in the last 32nd inch of movement does the plunger force electrical contacts to close.


----------



## bojisteve

I have a 5 year old Craftsman ys4500 24hp Briggs V-twin. i had the same problem. I cleaned all connections including removing the starter and cleaning where it makes contact to the block. Also replaced batterry and between the 2 it took care of the problem.


----------



## wjjones

bojisteve said:


> I have a 5 year old Craftsman ys4500 24hp Briggs V-twin. i had the same problem. I cleaned all connections including removing the starter and cleaning where it makes contact to the block. Also replaced batterry and between the 2 it took care of the problem.



Thankyou for the info..I have the identical same mower, and it has been giving me the same problem for some time now.. Mine is a 2006 ys4500 24hp v-twin Briggs intek with the 54" deck. It doesnt do it everytime but sometimes it hesitates when trying to start it..i have to bump the key back, and forth off/on to get it to start..


----------

