# Consumer Ripoff



## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

I came upon a situation today that I found very disturbing and felt other Cub owners should be aware of when doing maintenance. 

For the second time I found gas in the crankcase oil. The typical cause is the float valve not shutting off when the bowl is full. I pulled carb and everything actually looked good. I couldn't see the valve seat and assumed it was the cause for the gas not shutting off. Time for a carb kit to replace the seat. 

I went to the local Cub dealer for the carb kit. I expected a kit in the $10-15 range as the total contents of the kit was 2 gaskets, 1 O-ring, 1 float valve and 1 float valve seat. Not much of carb kit. The service lady was very pleasant. Then she said "That will be $109.96 plus 6 % Tax ". She also recommended a new float for $19.95 due to the age of my mower. 

I was in shock at this point. I asked if she had misplaced a decimal point. She laughed and said that was the correct corporation price for the items. I told her I wasn't going to pay over $100 dollars for at most $5 worth of parts. She said it might be better to just buy a new carb and looked that price. She said that didn't help much as a new carb was $294.50. While there, had her up price for additional items I was considering buying. Here goes. Fuel Shutoff Valve-$19.95, Fuel Hose-$6.95 per foot, Hose clamps-$0.75 each, Fuel Filter-$14.95, Oil Filter-$9.95, NKG spark plugs-$7.95 each and and Fuel Pump-$22.50. It's lucky I didn't faint from shock. I thanked her and left. 

Got home and went surfing on the net. Found a recommended carb replacement kit on Amazon that was pretty inclusive. It includes a new carb (Heinhin brand, same as the old but different model number by 1 digit,), 2 gaskets, 1 Fuel pump, 2 feet of Fuel Hose , 8 clamps, and fuel Shutoff Valve. Total price for the entire kit was $33.50 and included free shipping. So, it's on its way. 

Delivery is 3 days, so started monkeying with old carb and found the real problem. The flimsy wire that attaches the float valve to the float lever was bending when the float was trying to close and binding the float valve from closing. Presented with a mechanical problem, i set out to make my own float valve actuator out of fairly stiff 0.030 MIG wire I hand enlarged the retaining groove on the float valve to work with the heavier welding wire. Hit a dimension correct holder on the 5th try.

I hooked the modified carb to an elevated gas tank. There were zero leaks after a 4 hour test. It appears that a major engine problem was solved with $0.02 cents of welding wire.

The whole point is that some American business is ripping off consumers while loudly complaining of unfair business practices. When parts come from the same supplier and there is a vast difference in retail prices, it's the American consumer who is subjected to unfair business practices. I caution all buyers of Cub parts to seek alternatives of buying from companies with more integrity than Cub Cadet. This applies to all parts A high quality mower deck belt that is actually better than Cubs can be bought for 1/4 the price of the Cub. BUYERS BEWARE OF BUSINESS SCAMS.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Not a scam at all but the cost of OEM parts from a dealer. You can always buy aftermarket parts cheaper but beware, not all aftermarket parts are of sufficient quality, especially the Chineseum parts. Far as the correct float level goes, rule of thumb applies. The fuel level should be at the split between the bowl and the upper body for the jug to operate correctly and with today's e-gas it's always prudent to either run the carb dry before storage or add a good gas stabilizer like Marine Stabil before storage to eliminate a gunked up jug, or worse, a replacement carb.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I own 3 Cub Cadets myself. 2 zero turn mowers and a tiller and I tend to use OEM parts where necessary but if I can substitute for less and the substitution quality is on par with OEM, I use aftermarket.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I could tell you a story about OEM markup that would curl your hair but it's quite lengthy. Suffice to say that most OEM parts have a very substantial markup on them but the selling dealer is only getting a small slice of the markup pie.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Steel tipped float needles takes the O-ring, rubber tipped float doesn't need it. Neither Briggs, or Kohler sell the o-ring alone, you have to buy the "Kit". You can buy just the rubber tipped float needle for either one for around $5 retail...... I take it you didn't know that?


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Ed Williams said:


> I came upon a situation today that I found very disturbing and felt other Cub owners should be aware of when doing maintenance.
> 
> For the second time I found gas in the crankcase oil. The typical cause is the float valve not shutting off when the bowl is full. I pulled carb and everything actually looked good. I couldn't see the valve seat and assumed it was the cause for the gas not shutting off. Time for a carb kit to replace the seat.
> 
> ...


It's not Cub Cadet. This comes down thru their parent company MTD. MTD has a huge slice to the market pie and is flexing it's muscles on keeping prices high now. 

Yanmar and MTD/Cub Cadet parted ways in 2011. It's about the time MTD was ramping the prices higher that consumers would go elsewhere to buy a compact tractor. Yanmar bought out the remaining MTD interest in the joint venture. A smart move overall as we look back in hindsight. 

Due to these so-called parts shortages, everything has gone mad mad mad in pricing. It's not hyper inflation - - - yet. We are in Rapid inflation at present. And yes, some things should not drastically jump in price either. Thus the price gouging will continue regardless. 

On line retailers have some stock and can still sell 'at below' prices for now. Once that stock is gone, expect every venue to be high priced.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

IOW, you have to pay to play. If consumers only knew how much stuff was marked up, I think there would be a revolution.,...and you dealer is only getting a very small part of it.

Without going into detail (because I know), how about a tie rod end that costs a Tier 4 manufacturer 25 cents each to produce, gets 'mark upped' to 40 bucks between the manufacturer of that part and when you buy it and get your grubby hands on it at the parts counter of your dealership. 

That plays out every day millions of times. 

Don't know about Yanmar and CUB and don't much care anyway. Don't know if MTD is flexing it's muscles, All I know is about manufacturer to wholesale to retail markup, how the pie is sliced and who gets what portions. People like to blame the dealer and call it a ripoff when it's not the dealer at all. Fact of the matter is, the manufacturer of said unit controls the retail pricing the dealer charges you and they are being charged a markup from the wholesaler and so on. Kind of reminds me of the Harley Davidson scenario. HD is a receptive company. They realized there was a huge markup (profit to be made) by eliminating as much of the supply chain markup as possible so they could pocket maximum profit with minimum outlay. Why HD sells 'HD branded parts and acessories made in China and Taiwan today. They eliminated the supply chain markups and they pocket almost all the profit, minus the dealer's portion which is really tiny. Harley people fall right into the trap because they have to 'have' HD branded stuff when in reality the company is sticking it to them.

I find consumers interesting in their buying habits and brand loyalty. Just one example of thousands, maybe millions..

Again, aftermarket is all well and good but you have to understand that cheap usually means low quality too. Not always, but usually and 'over there and elsewhere there a lot of manufacturers catering to the off market that produce sub standard parts, so practicing due diligence is always a good idea, especially with critical parts and assemblies.


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## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

Hey guys. I sort of pulled a boner when I took the carb off the GX 1054. I didn't have my phone with me, so I didn't get photos of the location of choke control rod attachment location. Can anyone help with a photo or ugh l


Bob Driver said:


> Steel tipped float needles takes the O-ring, rubber tipped float doesn't need it. Neither Briggs, or Kohler sell the o-ring alone, you have to buy the "Kit". You can buy just the rubber tipped float needle for either one for around $5 retail...... I take it you didn't know that?


No. The service department never mentioned it was for sale individually. I also needed a new seat.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Ed Williams said:


> Hey guys. I sort of pulled a boner when I took the carb off the GX 1054. I didn't have my phone with me, so I didn't get photos of the location of choke control rod attachment location. Can anyone help with a photo or ugh l
> 
> No. The service department never mentioned it was for sale individually. I also needed a new seat.


That's the whole point of changing to a rubber tipped needle valve, you don't need to change the seat.......... How much time was involved in the "5 tries" to get your custom wire retainer bent right, to save the $3 for a rubber tipped float needle? 

We've talked about the your "thrifty" nature before ...... It's good to see you back posting again, hope your leg is back to fairly normal, that sort of injury is really tough on us old guys


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## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

Bob Driver said:


> That's the whole point of changing to a rubber tipped needle valve, you don't need to change the seat.......... How much time was involved in the "5 tries" to get your custom wire retainer bent right, to save the $3 for a rubber tipped float needle?
> 
> We've talked about the your "thrifty" nature before ...... It's good to see you back posting again, hope your leg is back to fairly normal, that sort of injury is really tough on us old guys


When I went for parts, I told the service manager I needed a float valve and seat. They said I needed the overhaul kit which included those items, the 2 mounting gaskets and O-ring bowl seal. With those 5 items priced as a kit for $109.86, I don't see how any item could be priced in the $5 range. 

I already had a new carb on order, so the original carb was just a paperweight unless the valve actuator could be modified to work correctly. With a new carb priced at $294.50, it seemed worthwhile effort to use $0.02 of welding wire to make a usable carb. I knew going in that based on the small size of the attachment wire and variable geometry of converting angular geometry to vertical geometry would require some tweaking to get a working unit. It seemed like a interesting thing to try.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Ed Williams said:


> When I went for parts, I told the service manager I needed a float valve and seat. They said I needed the overhaul kit which included those items, the 2 mounting gaskets and O-ring bowl seal. With those 5 items priced as a kit for $109.86, I don't see how any item could be priced in the $5 range.
> 
> I already had a new carb on order, so the original carb was just a paperweight unless the valve actuator could be modified to work correctly. With a new carb priced at $294.50, it seemed worthwhile effort to use $0.02 of welding wire to make a usable carb. I knew going in that based on the small size of the attachment wire and variable geometry of converting angular geometry to vertical geometry would require some tweaking to get a working unit. It seemed like a interesting thing to try.


Did that Service Manager have a great big smile on his face when he saw you walk in the door, because we sure shop our parts in different places? You don't say what engine you're running, but tractor data says it's should be a big bore Kohler (CV730/740).

Here's a replacement single barrel carb (24-853-102-S) for $36 that runs just fine on a big bore Kohler ...... $294.50 ??????

Big Bore Single Kohler Carb $36

If you want to stick with the original carb, here's the OEM Kohler float seat kit for that same Carb (12-52-104) for $42...... $109.86?????

OEM Kohler 12-52-104 Float Kit $42


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

IMO, the offshore carbs can be hit and miss.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

SidecarFlip said:


> IMO, the offshore carbs can be hit and miss.


That's probably because you don't understand they are usually jetted to meet California emissions standards to be able to come into the West Coast distributors from Asia and you have to swap the OEM sized jets/mix towers into them and then they run fine.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Never had to worry about that actually. I don't have carb issues as a rule because I don't let them get gunked up.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

SidecarFlip said:


> Never had to worry about that actually. I don't have carb issues as a rule because I don't let them get gunked up.


Don't really have to know the small details like that when you're just working on your own stuff and that critical lack of knowledge isn't going to at all influence your inaccurate opinion about replacement carburetors. With your vast knowledge base, surely you've used one of these to accurately jet/tune a motorcycle, ATV, or lawn mower carburetor.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Nope.


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## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

Bob Driver said:


> Did that Service Manager have a great big smile on his face when he saw you walk in the door, because we sure shop our parts in different places? You don't say what engine you're running, but tractor data says it's should be a big bore Kohler (CV730/740).
> 
> Here's a replacement single barrel carb (24-853-102-S) for $36 that runs just fine on a big bore Kohler ...... $294.50 ??????
> 
> ...


It's a Kohler 27 hp. I was a little surprised that it was a Zienhin brand. I don't do much small engine work, but I had never heard of that brand. Anyway, the new carb was purchased from an independent lawn mower and engine service shop in the south. They also sell parts on Amazon. The new carb is the same brand , but there is 1 number different in the stamped part number. I called the shop and they said it was the same carb, but had the update. When I asked, they said the old carb bowl to to body seal of 2 flat plates with an O-ring seal. The new carb the bowl has a lip that extends past the body and uses a gasket. It is supposed to be a direct replacement. His price for just the carb was $28, but I bought the replacement kit which also included the 2 gaskets and vacuum fuel pump that raised the price to about $34. His price seems more in line for the parts in the kit , comparable to automotive products.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Ed Williams said:


> It's a Kohler 27 hp. I was a little surprised that it was a Zienhin brand. I don't do much small engine work, but I had never heard of that brand. Anyway, the new carb was purchased from an independent lawn mower and engine service shop in the south. They also sell parts on Amazon. The new carb is the same brand , but there is 1 number different in the stamped part number. I called the shop and they said it was the same carb, but had the update. When I asked, they said the old carb bowl to to body seal of 2 flat plates with an O-ring seal. The new carb the bowl has a lip that extends past the body and uses a gasket. It is supposed to be a direct replacement. His price for just the carb was $28, but I bought the replacement kit which also included the 2 gaskets and vacuum fuel pump that raised the price to about $34. His price seems more in line for the parts in the kit , comparable to automotive products.


Do you mean KEIHIN carburetor?..... They've come on every Honda motorcycle made since 1956 years. Think of the old school automotive carbs, there was Holley, Carter, and Rochester. With motorcycles, it was Mikuni, Keihin, and Tillotson..... Keihin is the Rochester of motorcycle carburetors, they are every where


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## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

Bob Driver said:


> Do you mean KEIHIN carburetor?..... They've come on every Honda motorcycle made since 1956 years. Think of the old school automotive carbs, there was Holley, Carter, and Rochester. With motorcycles, it was Mikuni, Keihin, and Tillotson..... Keihin is the Rochester of motorcycle carburetors, they are every where


I told you I didn't do much small engine work. That includes motorcycle, ATV , anything else that you can hand carry the motor (or used to). Sometimes ignorance is bliss, other times it is a PIA. Please excuse my ignorance but this old dog is just trying to cope with avoiding repair shops and being gouged by parts suppliers. It used to be that parts suppliers would go out of their way to get their regular customers the best deals, but it appears that those days are gone forever.


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## Harleyron74 (May 31, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> IOW, you have to pay to play. If consumers only knew how much stuff was marked up, I think there would be a revolution.,...and you dealer is only getting a very small part of it.
> 
> Without going into detail (because I know), how about a tie rod end that costs a Tier 4 manufacturer 25 cents each to produce, gets 'mark upped' to 40 bucks between the manufacturer of that part and when you buy it and get your grubby hands on it at the parts counter of your dealership.
> 
> ...


When I was in trade school some 45 years ago I worked for a friend of mine that owned A chopper shop ( I ran parts, worked the counter, helped in the shop and drank his beer!) When he sent me over to Belmont Harley - Davidson he always told me to bring the KY with me! So over priced dealer parts is not a new phenomenon.


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## 42343 (Mar 19, 2017)

This is the reason I do not buy from my local hardware/equipment dealer. He charges the LIST price. Its 1/4 that from online dealers. If they don't want to do business, don't do business.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

KETCHUP said:


> This is the reason I do not buy from my local hardware/equipment dealer. He charges the LIST price. Its 1/4 that from online dealers. If they don't want to do business, don't do business.


Big difference in overhead cost with a brick/mortar store and an on-line retailer. I'm really lucky in that there is a big player in the on-line mower part game located less than 10 minutes from me. He was in the repair business for 20 years and then realized there was way more $$$ to be made selling parts on-line. He converted his shop to a warehouse, he also has a regular store front, and his kids all work for him. His on-line prices are as good as anybody and he gives me 20% off because I have a sales tax license and a County business permit. If he don't have the part in stock, it's takes at most 2 days, and he doesn't charge me shipping. 80% of his sales are on-line.....


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

I remember my oldest brother worked for the local NAPA dealer in college and part of his job was pricing and stocking the parts as they came in off the truck.....This was 35 years ago long before the online stuff.....Totally crazy the make up on parts....I remember him telling me, for example, that spark plugs had a 300% mark up from what they paid for them.......


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

unsquidly said:


> I remember my oldest brother worked for the local NAPA dealer in college and part of his job was pricing and stocking the parts as they came in off the truck.....This was 35 years ago long before the online stuff.....Totally crazy the make up on parts....I remember him telling me, for example, that spark plugs had a 300% mark up from what they paid for them.......


... and that's why I rarely ever set foot in an autoparts store. RockAuto.com or others tend to be far better.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

bmaverick said:


> ... and that's why I rarely ever set foot in an autoparts store. RockAuto.com or others tend to be far better.



When it comes to auto parts, unless I have to have it that day or the next I use RockAuto or AutoPartsWarehouse website......


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

unsquidly said:


> When it comes to auto parts, unless I have to have it that day or the next I use RockAuto or AutoPartsWarehouse website......


I use RockAuto all the time to get x-reference part #'s. Their prices are good, but the shipping is pricey and kinda iffy as far as time..... Depends on from where the part ships.

I read where they are based in Madison, WI, and supposedly they ship parts *directly from the manufacturers* to customers...... Translated, that means they are a "Drop Shipper" and have way lower overhead cost than an operation with a warehouse full of parts inventory on the shelf and an army of employees to make the logistics work.

Office space, phone, computer system, coffee machine, a load of vendor contracts, and a bathroom is about all you need..... Supposedly owned by a guy named Tom Taylor


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Crap... I just bought some parts from them for my old Ford! They will probably be labelled "Dennis Carpenter Ford" and there will be a mark up!!


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

pogobill said:


> Crap... I just bought some parts from them for my old Ford! They will probably be labelled "Dennis Carpenter Ford" and there will be a mark up!!


Serves you right.... Paid $45 yesterday at Lowes for six 2x4x8's and it said CANADA all over them


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

pogobill said:


> Crap... I just bought some parts from them for my old Ford! They will probably be labelled "Dennis Carpenter Ford" and there will be a mark up!!


Dennis Carpenter Ford Tractor Restoration Parts - Farm Collector


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Bob Driver said:


> Serves you right.... Paid $45 yesterday at Lowes for six 2x4x8's and it said CANADA all over them


Them dang US tariff's!  Went to pick up some 7' steel "T" Posts at the building center last week...... $15.00 each! Course, they has USA cast into them...LOL


bmaverick said:


> Dennis Carpenter Ford Tractor Restoration Parts - Farm Collector


I actually do shop there from time to time for the my tractors, usually MACS in Lockport, NY for car parts. 
Some stuff is getting hard to find these days!


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

pogobill said:


> Them dang US tariff's!  Went to pick up some 7' steel "T" Posts at the building center last week...... $15.00 each! Course, they has USA cast into them...LOL
> 
> I actually do shop there from time to time for the my tractors, usually MACS in Lockport, NY for car parts.
> Some stuff is getting hard to find these days!


Had a Buddy of mine that actually worked at Dennis Carpenter's in Concord, NC. That place is AWESOME!!! It's not just a parts warehouse, it's like a museum also. There is some really cool stuff on display there and you can spend hours just looking around. Downside is they're only open Monday - Thursday


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

I wouldn't mind having that rig bmaverick posted, that's for sure..... and that tractor is mighty nice as well!


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