# Newbie Intro and request for Ford 8N help



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Hi I'm JB. I come from The Great White North just above our American friends. I am Rural and our 8N is part of the family and usually runs like a clock even with 6Volts. Unfortunately, our 8N has been refusing to start due to 2 issues for which we would be eternally grateful for your help and assistance to sort out and put our good 8N running properly once again.

The first issue is that no fuel is reaching the cylinders and the second issue is that when the fuel dial(petcock) is opened, fuel just streams out the air intake of the carb. The Carb was replaced with new from dealer before everything was being produced in China. This was made in the USA according to the aluminum plate attached. The carb is a Marvel Schebler model TSX-241B and was purchased because the original carb was leaking past the spindles and difficult to start. This carb is not worn or leaking past the spindle seals. 

We have done the following when it would not start:
Replaced the battery with a new 6V one from the dealer
Ensured the distributor was clean, the ignition cables in good order and the points are opening and closing with good spark. Replaced the spark plugs with new ones which continue to remain bone dry despite attempts to start with much choke.

What did occur was that the carb began leaking fuel out the air intake of the carb and not in dribbles and tiny leak.
Pulled the Carb off and discovered manifold was dry no trace of fuel. Took the carb apart and checked that the float was not taking on fuel and that the float needle valve was seating properly. The float was not taking on fuel and the float needle valve seemed to be seating. I did notice that there was only a 1 to 2mm drop of the float and needle valve. There was some sludge in the float bowl which was cleaned up thoroughly with carb cleaner. After removing the float, gasket and needle valve, the carb was blown out with compressed air including all air/fuel passages. Air seemed to blow through without obstruction. The carb was reassembled and reinstalled. The second we opened that petcock dial, fuel ran out of the air intake yet again. So we pulled the carb off the tractor and tore it apart all over again, checking every little thing. The float needle valve seemed to seating okay but who can really tell. We tried to see if there was anywhere else the fuel could be coming from but there were no signs at all. No casting cracks or obvious possible spots. We reassembled and reinstalled once more only to face the same results. We even tried to start the tractor once again but no way it would start. We pulled a plug and again found it to be bone dry. Not even a whiff or hint of fuel. The carb however had no problem spouting fuel from the air intake. So, off the carb came again and another teardown. Once again, rebuilt, reinstalled and tried the petcock again only to face the same results all over again. So we are pretty frustrated at this point. New Holland no longer sells either a carb repair kit or even the carb itself. On Amazon, there are plenty of chinese knockoffs but when you read the reviews, they are mostly garbage and plenty warn people not to waster their money. We were toying with the idea of getting the full repair kit but it is once again chinese and does not include a float. We could order a cheap carb and strip it and use the parts but some people have said that sometimes the threads are metric and not OEM compatible. If we knew the cause of the two issues we are having, perhaps we might figure out a solution, which brings us to how much we need your help, if you please. We want to get your imput before marching blindly ahead and purchasing garbage that we have been so warned about, All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

We are guessing that the Float Needle valve isn't seating properly, probably due to dried up rubber tip or hardened rubber. This of course unless there is a way the fuel is leaking elsewhere. The other question is as to why fuel is not travelling into the intake manifold and on to the cylinders unless there is a true blockage in the carb passages. I was never fond of the systems whereby fuel had to drawn upwards instead of good old gravity flow.

If I have posted this in the wrong place, please accept my humblest apologies. I do not claim to be site or forum savvy. Thank you in advance for your help.


----------



## 2billt (Aug 7, 2011)

Do you have a fuel pump or gravity feed?


----------



## thedukes (Jan 9, 2022)

System designed for gravity.

No rubber lines or filters either.

There are screens at petcock and carb.

If its puking fuel.......float is sunk or needle/seat is bad.

Address this fuel issue first.
Along the same lines, check or dissassemble oil bath air cleaner and make it right.
Odds are no one has been there for years.

Theres a gal; on YT...I forget who but I just posted a video of Her doing a carb overhaul last week.
Its a couple posts down the list from yours.......They got the part or parts you may need and are decent folks......plus She shows you how to do it.
You sure your new carb is not a china model?...I don't know if they copied the werdage on the knock offs but more than a few have had issues with them. Usually when climbing hills or on uneven grades.
Flat ground they seem too work.

Fix the fuel issue......then we go to spark.


----------



## Mrsig (Jun 6, 2021)

*and enjoy the forum!*


----------



## Bertrrr (Jan 28, 2021)

You can test the needle valve by turning the carb upside down, blow into the fuel supply port, while upside down you shouldn't be able to blow through it, now flip it right side up and do the same thing, float will be down and needle valve port open , if it passes this test ,,,, it aint your float assembly. 
I'd not be too surprised if you have a faulty carb. Quality control these days is horrid


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

2billt said:


> Do you have a fuel pump or gravity feed?


Our 8N is gravity fed.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

2billt said:


> Do you have a fuel pump or gravity feed?


It is gravity fed


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

thedukes said:


> System designed for gravity.
> 
> No rubber lines or filters either.
> 
> ...


The carb was purchased from the New Holland dealer and it is stamped Marvel Schubler TSX241B and from the USA -I believe, the stamping there is not as deep.
The float does not seem to take on fuel. The needle valve rubber however seems hard and dry.

I will have to look for that girl. I did contact the New Holland dealer and they can no longer get either the carb kit or carb period. There are plenty of Chinese crappy ones that reviews tell of poor quality, lots of leaks and warning to not waste your money. There is a rebuild kit as well but does not include a float which I would like to replace. But again, it's Chinese so you take your chances.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Mrsig said:


> *and enjoy the forum!*


Thank you. I have heard great things about this forum and decided to try it.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Bertrrr said:


> You can test the needle valve by turning the carb upside down, blow into the fuel supply port, while upside down you shouldn't be able to blow through it, now flip it right side up and do the same thing, float will be down and needle valve port open , if it passes this test ,,,, it aint your float assembly.
> I'd not be too surprised if you have a faulty carb. Quality control these days is horrid


This is a good idea and I will try it. Thanks


----------



## RufusMax (Mar 24, 2017)

That girl is Rachell Gingell. Dan (her dad) and Rachel have lots of videos on YouTube, many dealing with your specific carb. I didn't see where they had any catchy name of their channel, it's just "Dan Gingell and Rachel Gingell" and a website - farmtractorrepair.com where they sell a lot of parts for your 8N. I have bought parts from them and talked to them on the phone, they seem like good folks.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

RufusMax said:


> That girl is Rachell Gingell. Dan (her dad) and Rachel have lots of videos on YouTube, many dealing with your specific carb. I didn't see where they had any catchy name of their channel, it's just "Dan Gingell and Rachel Gingell" and a website - farmtractorrepair.com where they sell a lot of parts for your 8N. I have bought parts from them and talked to them on the phone, they seem like good folks.


 Yes, I agree, they seem very nice and I have watched a number of their videos and made use of the *n ones. 

I was about to order rebuild kit and other when I found a rebuild kit at our nearby New Holland dealer. Following Rachel's video, I rebuilt our carb. The carb was full of fuel when I removed it and the float was bone dry. I was meticulous in the rebuild but despite this, fuel just pours out of the Carb when the fuel petcock is opened. Worse is the fact that I tested the new needle valve and it stopped air flowing. Gaskets were replaced, all carb passages cleaned and blown out. I have ordered a new float as a matter of protocol but I seriously believe that there is something else going on here but despite close inspection, I can see nothing obvious. 

Can anyone suggest what else could be going on here. The carb is 7-9 years old and it was built in the USA, it is not a Chinese low quality knockoff. I have a feeling that a new float won't make any difference despite logic telling that either the needle float valve or the float itself are highly suspect. Fuel is delivered by gravity and not under any pressure such as a fuel pump. Fuel comes into carb through Needle valve port and fills the float bowl until float rises and shuts off fuel delivery. BTW, I also measured the float and where it must sit, exactly per both my kit instruction and per Rachel in her 8N carb video. I am literally stumped.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

JB7 said:


> This is a good idea and I will try it. Thanks


I just posted an update whereby I located a kit and rebuilt the Carb meticulously. The float bowl was full of fuel yet the float had no fluid/gas in it. I checked the action of the float and new needle valve and apart, it works as it should. I also did the blow test into the fuel entry port. It shut off air flow (upside down) as it should and let air flow when it should (right side up). There are no visible cracks anywhere and everything looks in order. This BTW was a new carb built in the States by Marvel, so it isn't a Chinese inferior copy. I looked closely at the seams and bottoms of the float bowls AND when I open the carb up, the bowls are full of fuel. Yet fuel runs right out of the air intake. There are also no external leaks on the carb anywhere. Nothing near the delivery fuel line, out the sides or the top, nor the bottom. I might have my 1952 carb whereby if I do, I could interchange parts and see if that solves anything. That is a big IF, I may have turfed it years ago. The only other thing that may help to solve the mystery is that no fuel is making it to any of the cylinders and from what I can see, the intake manifold either. Perhaps there is a clue there somewhere. It is a mechanical carb, there has to be a logical explanation and solution somewhere...one would hope. Thanks


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

thedukes said:


> System designed for gravity.
> 
> No rubber lines or filters either.
> 
> ...


Hi and thank you for your reply. M
For some reason my original reply did not make it through. Not sure why. My Newbie bad.

I agree with your take on the situation, it must be either float or needle valve/seat especially since this USA carb is not old and not abused (light duty work for this 8N). I posted latest updates and I am now pretty convinced that the problem is neither of these. Float bowls were full of fuel but float was not and new valve and seat worked as they should. No cracks, external leaks or even seam leaks but despite thorough cleaning and rebuild, fuel still flows out air intake. Also still no fuel into intake or to the cylinders in case it may be a clue to what is occurring. Anyway, thanks again for your input. JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

The needle and seat are working as you say, but not with fuel, have you thought of dropping the float level a tad at a time to see if the float and needle will close off the fuel flow, it is obvious that something is fouling the float, is the bowl gasket sagging at all??, the float measurements are measurements to work by, the same as for the mixture screws, experiment and see what happens.

Are your floats brass or cork??.

Have you removed the air cleaner hose and watched the inlet of the carby to see where the fuel is coming from after turning on the fuel tap??.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> There is not some debris poking in the needle seat from the fuel side, you would have checked, but I had to ask, the needle and seat are working as you say, but not with fuel, have you thought of dropping the float level a tad at a time to see if the float and needle will close off the fuel flow, those float measurements are measurements to work by, the same as for the mixture screws, experiment and see what happens.


Hi,
I actually did try lowering the float to ensure it was closing the needle valve. It was not by a lot mind you. I could try more. The needle valve and seat are new of course. I also thought that with the new seat and valve that I would have seen the flow out the air intake diminished, but sadly no. I keep thinking that the float and seat are the gatekeepers for the fuel. Maybe a drastic lowering of the floats will be required. Thanks

JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

JB7 said:


> Hi,
> I actually did try lowering the float to ensure it was closing the needle valve. It was not by a lot mind you. I could try more. The needle valve and seat are new of course. I also thought that with the new seat and valve that I would have seen the flow out the air intake diminished, but sadly no. I keep thinking that the float and seat are the gatekeepers for the fuel. Maybe a drastic lowering of the floats will be required. Thanks
> 
> JB


If you adjust the float too low and that fixes the problem, then you will have to lift the float again to a good working height for the engine to run under power, too low and you wont get engine revs.

Do you have any paperwork on your carb, I have downloaded info on your model carb I think, would you like it??>


----------



## 2billt (Aug 7, 2011)

If I understand this correctly, engine is static and vacuum is not a consideration?

You can check the float valve by pulling the mixture screws out and confirm if fuel is present.
If yes, the float valve is not stopping fuel and it's getting through a circuit with the head pressure from fuel in tank. 
If no, then I would look more attentively at the mating between the body and bowl or a crack, like you previously mentioned.
You may have some interference with the float travel ie gasket warp, float hinge pinch, burrs, elongated pin tube or side torque on float, etc. 

Note: I once ran across a float pin that had been installed with plier teeth marks that bench air tested fine but would hang up with fuel pressure.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> If you adjust the float too low and that fixes the problem, then you will have to lift the float again to a good working height for the engine to run under power, too low and you wont get engine revs.
> 
> Do you have any paperwork on your carb, I have downloaded info on your model carb I think, would you like it??>


Hi, 
No I have no paperwork on my carb and Yes, please give me what you have. Thank you


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

2billt said:


> If I understand this correctly, engine is static and vacuum is not a consideration?
> 
> You can check the float valve by pulling the mixture screws out and confirm if fuel is present.
> If yes, the float valve is not stopping fuel and it's getting through a circuit with the head pressure from fuel in tank.
> ...


Hi,
If by static, you mean not running. I did attempt to start it a good many times.

The gasket is brand spanking new and was installed for the first time yesterday. 

Today, I spoke with our model A club Senior Tech and he said that when they install a new kit, they gently push the new needle valve into the new seat(installed), so that it is mated properly and forms a good seal.

I will do as you suggested with the mixture screw and see what happens. I did examine the casing closely and there were no visible cracks, burrs or obstructions. I will also be getting a new float as early as one week from now. Thank you for your input and suggestions.
JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

JB7 said:


> Hi,
> No I have no paperwork on my carb and Yes, please give me what you have. Thank you


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Hi and thank you. Very much appreciated. I will put it to good use and print off for our binder.


----------



## 2billt (Aug 7, 2011)

In the carb details @FredM sent, you can easily see that by pulling the adjusting screws, if fuel is not controlled by the float valve it would be present at the screw ports.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

2billt said:


> In the carb details @FredM sent, you can easily see that by pulling the adjusting screws, if fuel is not controlled by the float valve it would be present at the screw ports.


If I understand correctly, what you mean is that, if the float valve is not controlling fuel entering the carb, the moment I unscrew and remove the mixture screw, fuel will come running out.

Now, I have the fuel petcock shut off because fuel just runs out the air intake. So, by shutting off the petcock, there is no more gravity fuel pressure. Would I still see fuel come out the mixture screw port? I want to understand this fully. I can see that if fuel petcock is open and fuel is allowed to flow, that fuel could come up the mixture screw shaft. Does it also follow that if the needle valve does not shut off the fuel entering, that fuel flows over the float bowls and runs out the air intake? The path of least resistance?

Sadly, I am leaving to out of town this week but hope to be back next weekend and with luck, my new float will arrive Saturday mid morning. I will continue to check my alerts and replies. Thanks JB


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Hi,

I have tried every software I have and cannot open this file except in Word but it comes out mostly machine code. I thought it perhaps to be a PDF but my Adobe won't open it either. Would you tell me what kind of file it is and what I should use to open it with. Thank you. Much appreciated. JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

JB7 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have tried every software I have and cannot open this file except in Word but it comes out mostly machine code. I thought it perhaps to be a PDF but my Adobe won't open it either. Would you tell me what kind of file it is and what I should use to open it with. Thank you. Much appreciated. JB


JB7, it is adobe acrobat format, are you double clicking on the attachment?, this should open in Tractor forum and then you save to desktop.

Maybe the browser is not compatible with Adobe??.


----------



## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

It should open, I just clicked on it once and it opened in a separate window.


----------



## 2billt (Aug 7, 2011)

JB7 said:


> If I understand correctly, what you mean is that, if the float valve is not controlling fuel entering the carb, the moment I unscrew and remove the mixture screw, fuel will come running out.
> 
> Now, I have the fuel petcock shut off because fuel just runs out the air intake. So, by shutting off the petcock, there is no more gravity fuel pressure. Would I still see fuel come out the mixture screw port? I want to understand this fully. I can see that if fuel petcock is open and fuel is allowed to flow, that fuel could come up the mixture screw shaft. Does it also follow that if the needle valve does not shut off the fuel entering, that fuel flows over the float bowls and runs out the air intake? The path of least resistance?
> 
> Sadly, I am leaving to out of town this week but hope to be back next weekend and with luck, my new float will arrive Saturday mid morning. I will continue to check my alerts and replies. Thanks JB


Q: "Would I still see fuel come out the mixture screw port?"
A: NO, fuel should not be flowing at the screw ports, normally - engine off.

Q: Does it also follow that if the needle valve does not shut off the fuel entering, that fuel flows over the float bowls and runs out the air intake?
A: "Needle Valve" _*could shut off *_fuel if closed but the engine would not run or idle. with engine off, the float valve should shut off fuel before it travels to the "Needle Valve".
Fuel should not "_flow over the bowl_" for any reason if the float valve is stopping fuel. (according to your previous confirmations ie cracks, gaskets, ect.)

Q: The path of least resistance?
A: YES, and if the float does not control the fuel inlet then fuel can flow on to the idle / run circuits and enter the air horn with very little resistance.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

2billt said:


> Q: "Would I still see fuel come out the mixture screw port?"
> A: NO, fuel should not be flowing at the screw ports, normally - engine off.
> 
> Q: Does it also follow that if the needle valve does not shut off the fuel entering, that fuel flows over the float bowls and runs out the air intake?
> ...


Ok, thank you.
I have been calling the Float Valve, the "Needle Valve", but I do understand and at this point, I can only assume that the new float valve is not seating. Once I get my new float next week, I will gently seat the float valve and install the new float then see what happens. If there is a casing crack somewhere, I cannot see it even with a magnifying glass. Thanks JB


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> JB7, it is adobe acrobat format, are you double clicking on the attachment?, this should open in Tractor forum and then you save to desktop.
> 
> Maybe the browser is not compatible with Adobe??.


Hi,
I did double click on it but my Adobe does not recognize the file extension. I also made sure that my Adobe was up to date.
Perhaps the file could be sent again and I will try again. Thanks JB


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Hi,
I finally managed to download and open a copy of this pdf, so thank you. Maybe it was the browser. I will print it out when I return home. Page 24 is totally black, is that correct? Anyway, I appreciate getting this file. Thank you JB


----------



## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Seems page 24 is all black! Beware that you don't burn threw your ink printing that page!


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

JB7 said:


> Hi,
> I finally managed to download and open a copy of this pdf, so thank you. Maybe it was the browser. I will print it out when I return home. Page 24 is totally black, is that correct? Anyway, I appreciate getting this file. Thank you JB


JB7-- you would only need to print to page S18 that has the float level specs, that being the final page for the Marvel-Schebler carby, the following pages are for the Zenith model carby.

I know you mentioned a new needle seat and needle, did you replace the needle seat in the float chamber at all?? -- if you haven't, then there may be a slight groove in the seat allowing the fuel to flood the carby, just thought I would ask.


----------



## 2billt (Aug 7, 2011)

Congrats on opening the PDF.
Now that we all can use the correct carburetor vernacular.....
@FredM has suggested, the initial concern is making sure the "float valve" clearances and assembly are correct and function properly.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

FredM said:


> Have you removed the air cleaner hose and watched the inlet of the carby to see where the fuel is coming from after turning on the fuel tap??.


I suggested trying the above, if you remove the hose as suggested and shine a torch light into the carby throat and have someone turn the fuel on, you should be able to see if the fuel is leaking from the main jet, or a crack in the float chamber casting.

Just to get the record straight, after reading through your original post, you state "after trying to start with much choke, the carby started leaking fuel", is this the only time the carby leaks?, or when you turn the fuel on before starting?, one can assume that eventually a float needle will fail to seal fuel flow and the carby will flood, that is a given because of where the float needle rubber seal sits in the needle seat, a ring usually form in the rubber seal and eventually a leak will occur, I have on many occasions polished the rubber taper with fine wet and dry sand paper as a temporary fix until a new needle was acquired, I digress, so from the suggestion of looking into the carby throat with a torch will you be able to ascertain if the float needle is not working or there is indeed a crack in the carby housing.

And we need to get the carby problem fixed first before we worry about dry manifold and dry spark plugs, keeping in mind that we are talking about an updraft system on this tractor and not downdraft.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> JB7-- you would only need to print to page S18 that has the float level specs, that being the final page for the Marvel-Schebler carby, the following pages are for the Zenith model carby.
> 
> I know you mentioned a new needle seat and needle, did you replace the needle seat in the float chamber at all?? -- if you haven't, then there may be a slight groove in the seat allowing the fuel to flood the carby, just thought I would ask.


Hi,
I have been out of touch for a bit as we are racing to get equipment and other put away in storage before the weather turns bad. I have also been waiting on 8N Carb parts to arrive including a new float which just came in Tuesday this week and I installed it yesterday evening. The old one had something rattling around in it. I did install a new needle seat earlier.

I also figured out exactly why I was still leaking fuel out the air intake and though it is a little embarrassing, I will relay it here in case others have made the same error. I reviewed the youtube video of the girl rebuilding the carb and I did exactly as she did this time including Removing The long Idle mixture needle/screw. Previously, I was not doing so and therefore the needle was not going into the tube as it should but instead beside it. Yesterday, however, in removing it and installing it after assembling the two halves of the Carb, I reinserted it and in so doing, fuel no longer leaked out. Like I said, a little embarrassing but lesson learned. The tractor still wouldn't start but today, I will see if I have forward mounted distributor or side mounted (as I forget) and may have resistor plugs installed. I plan to get a new set of the appropriate Autolite plugs and gap to .020, if I can get them here because parts crossing the border is way too slow as I have seen with my float. 

Many weeks ago, I checked my Distributor Cap, Rotor and wires and they are in good condition. I also checked for spark but will check the gap again. I had pulled plug #2 before and there wasn't any trace of fuel but that was when I was losing fuel out the carb, so I will check that as well. I was truly hoping for startup after sorting out the carb last night but alas no go there. I shall persevere. 
Thank you


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> I suggested trying the above, if you remove the hose as suggested and shine a torch light into the carby throat and have someone turn the fuel on, you should be able to see if the fuel is leaking from the main jet, or a crack in the float chamber casting.
> 
> Just to get the record straight, after reading through your original post, you state "after trying to start with much choke, the carby started leaking fuel", is this the only time the carby leaks?, or when you turn the fuel on before starting?, one can assume that eventually a float needle will fail to seal fuel flow and the carby will flood, that is a given because of where the float needle rubber seal sits in the needle seat, a ring usually form in the rubber seal and eventually a leak will occur, I have on many occasions polished the rubber taper with fine wet and dry sand paper as a temporary fix until a new needle was acquired, I digress, so from the suggestion of looking into the carby throat with a torch will you be able to ascertain if the float needle is not working or there is indeed a crack in the carby housing.
> 
> And we need to get the carby problem fixed first before we worry about dry manifold and dry spark plugs, keeping in mind that we are talking about an updraft system on this tractor and not downdraft.


Hi
I wonder if you can help me determine whether o9r not I have a front or side mount Distributor? My generator is on the left side and according to the Rachel 8N segment, if my generator is on the left side of the tractor, I have a "Side Mount Distributor" ...BUT, my distributor is right at the front on the right side of the tractor, next to the fan belt. I am confused and I am told that it is important to get the right Autolite spark plugs which depends on the Distributor location. I have a set of Champions in there now and they are old. The question is whether I have a Front Mount or Side Mount Distributor so I can start tracking down either Autolite 216 or AL216 plugs OR Autolite 437 spark plugs. If you can help, I would certainly appreciate it. Thank you. JB


----------



## linquistmarc (5 mo ago)

JB7 said:


> Hi
> I wonder if you can help me determine whether o9r not I have a front or side mount Distributor? My generator is on the left side and according to the Rachel 8N segment, if my generator is on the left side of the tractor, I have a "Side Mount Distributor" ...BUT, my distributor is right at the front on the right side of the tractor, next to the fan belt. I am confused and I am told that it is important to get the right Autolite spark plugs which depends on the Distributor location. I have a set of Champions in there now and they are old. The question is whether I have a Front Mount or Side Mount Distributor so I can start tracking down either Autolite 216 or AL216 plugs OR Autolite 437 spark plugs. If you can help, I would certainly appreciate it. Thank you. JB


The side mount type has a distributor cap that looks like a normal automotive type. While the front mounted one has the entire unit mounted on its side on the front of the engine with the cap towards the radiator. The side ones are towards the front of the block but still on the drivers right side of the engine. The front type will have a weird squarish looking coil on top of it.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

linquistmarc said:


> The side mount type has a distributor cap that looks like a normal automotive type. While the front mounted one has the entire unit mounted on its side on the front of the engine with the cap towards the radiator. The side ones are towards the front of the block but still on the drivers right side of the engine. The front type will have a weird squarish looking coil on top of it.


Great, thank you. My cap and distributor look like an automotive one and not the box type. I can also easily access the cap, rotor and points. So, this now means the Autolite 437 plugs is what I need.

I tried once again to start my 8N but it seems that fuel may not be getting to the cylinders. I will try again tomorrow if I can and check each plug as I replace them. If not tomorrow, Saturday may be it. At least if plugs are fouled with fuel, it will provide more info. I may have to charge the 6v battery back up. We are below freezing here at night and today it was only 4 Celsius out.
Anyway, thanks again. JB


----------



## linquistmarc (5 mo ago)

I know you mentioned that this type of up draft carburation is not your favorite but for its day it was the wisest choice by Ford for the farmers who would working with and on them. In your case with a float problem, if this had been a downdraft setup and by chance the gas tank shut off was left open the fuel could have run directly into the cylinders and bypassed the rings and filled the crankcase with gas. Even overflowed out the dipstick tube if the gas tank was full enough. That would have been a big problem to correct, requiring draining the crankcase and refilling it with oil. I would much rather deal with some waisted fuel that leaked out of the carb onto the shed floor. The updraft distance also allows for better mixing and atomizing of the fuel/air. The required vacuum pressure to draw the fuel charge is very important and a defective intake manifold gasket or even a cracked manifold can prevent enough fuel from being pulled through the carburetor jets to offset the ratio deficit. You should be able to cover the carburetor intake with your palm while cranking the engine and feel a reasonably strong vacuum pressure. I take a can of starting fluid and carefully move the straw along the intake manifold gasket and spray while cranking the engine. If there is a leak the starting fluid will replace the air that was leaning out the mixture and enrich it enough to get the engine to fire up. I've done this with some rather huge openings in big block V8's and could keep the engine running as long as I kept spraying at full volume. You should need to spray just small doses of starting fluid to find any vacuum leaks on the intake. Always make sure you don't have any flammables like gas cans nearby and always have a fire extinguisher on hand just in case. Always plan for the unexpected.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

linquistmarc said:


> I know you mentioned that this type of up draft carburation is not your favorite but for its day it was the wisest choice by Ford for the farmers who would working with and on them. In your case with a float problem, if this had been a downdraft setup and by chance the gas tank shut off was left open the fuel could have run directly into the cylinders and bypassed the rings and filled the crankcase with gas. Even overflowed out the dipstick tube if the gas tank was full enough. That would have been a big problem to correct, requiring draining the crankcase and refilling it with oil. I would much rather deal with some waisted fuel that leaked out of the carb onto the shed floor. The updraft distance also allows for better mixing and atomizing of the fuel/air. The required vacuum pressure to draw the fuel charge is very important and a defective intake manifold gasket or even a cracked manifold can prevent enough fuel from being pulled through the carburetor jets to offset the ratio deficit. You should be able to cover the carburetor intake with your palm while cranking the engine and feel a reasonably strong vacuum pressure. I take a can of starting fluid and carefully move the straw along the intake manifold gasket and spray while cranking the engine. If there is a leak the starting fluid will replace the air that was leaning out the mixture and enrich it enough to get the engine to fire up. I've done this with some rather huge openings in big block V8's and could keep the engine running as long as I kept spraying at full volume. You should need to spray just small doses of starting fluid to find any vacuum leaks on the intake. Always make sure you don't have any flammables like gas cans nearby and always have a fire extinguisher on hand just in case. Always plan for the unexpected.


This makes good sense. I can appreciate that. This tractor is also pretty old and it's engine is a later generation of the model A. I met up with a group of model A owners and their cars a few weekends ago. The main Tech guy had an "A" carb with him and it was not unlike my own. What amazes me is that families grew up with these cars many years ago but at that time, they were one of the latest and greatest. 
My 8N had been running when I parked it so I am hoping that I am simply missing something. I will closely examine the manifold. The carb to manifold gasket is brand new. I will also cover the air intake when cranking and feel for the suction. Using Ether/Starting fluid will be for down the road. My carb fills with fuel no problem, so I will check cylinders for fuel when I replace the plugs. As I recall, it's pretty easy to flood and foul these engines. So, if get fuel into the cylinders, I should be halfway home. I also have a spark tester to see how spark is at the plug. Hopefully today.
Thanks JB


----------



## linquistmarc (5 mo ago)

JB7 said:


> This makes good sense. I can appreciate that. This tractor is also pretty old and it's engine is a later generation of the model A. I met up with a group of model A owners and their cars a few weekends ago. The main Tech guy had an "A" carb with him and it was not unlike my own. What amazes me is that families grew up with these cars many years ago but at that time, they were one of the latest and greatest.
> My 8N had been running when I parked it so I am hoping that I am simply missing something. I will closely examine the manifold. The carb to manifold gasket is brand new. I will also cover the air intake when cranking and feel for the suction. Using Ether/Starting fluid will be for down the road. My carb fills with fuel no problem, so I will check cylinders for fuel when I replace the plugs. As I recall, it's pretty easy to flood and foul these engines. So, if get fuel into the cylinders, I should be halfway home. I also have a spark tester to see how spark is at the plug. Hopefully today.
> Thanks JB


Just for a point of reference; most of those intake leaks that I have dealt with were on cars that I or someone else had just installed a new gasket on and we did it improperly or just had the very similar but still wrong gasket that didn’t seal right and leaned the mixture out to much. It doesn’t take much of a gap to cause the problems you are relating to. So, if it doesn’t start do that starting fluid test on the upper (manifold) and lower (carb) gaskets 👍


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Ok, thanks. 
The gasket came right from our Ford dealer in the rebuild kit. So, I feel it is correct, plus it matches the original that came with this carb when bought new a number of years ago before Chinese carbs flooded the market. It came from the USA manufacturer. I also hope I installed it correctly as there are only 2 ways I could do it. Sadly the instructions were meagre at best. One side of the gasket is a finished smooth side while the other side looks sliced and unfinished by comparison. I placed the unfinished side up facing the intake manifold.

As for the starting fluid, I already blew one motor up with it a number of years ago, so I am somewhat reluctant to use it. I felt confident back then that I was using it sparingly. I would be less concerned were this a big V8 engine.

And to be clear, are you suggesting I spray the starting fluid around the outside perimeter of the carb to manifold joint? Are you watching for a small cloud of ether to be drawn in? I will review your post again. 

It is a fact that I only have two nuts and washers fastening the two parts together. So the chance for a gap is quite possible. I don't have a fuel resistant silicone to use on the gasket. I could see about a finding a crankcase sealant or gasket goo to use on both sides. I can certainly see how not having a proper seal would prevent any fuel from being drawn in an updraft carb such as this. Aside from a sealant, I am not certain how to stop any air leak gaps, even if I discover one.

I was unable to work on the 8N today but possibly tomorrow. If I do need to apply a sealant or gasket goo to the gasket, is there one you would recommend? JB


----------



## linquistmarc (5 mo ago)

Using the starting fluid was something a close mechanic friend showed me. It's a quick diagnoses tool to eliminate possible causes. We have all probably had a small engine for a lawn mower or similar equipment that wouldn't start or stay running if not for a continuous flow of starting fluid going into the carburetor throat. But that usually indicates that there is a vacuum leak somewhere and the starting fluid is simply correcting the fuel/air ratio enough to allow the engine to run. And simply redirecting the spray to more precise areas like where gaskets have probably dried out and shrunk will usually reveal the leak that caused the engine to not start or stay running. The places on these old tractors that can cause vacuum leak problems is where the carb bolts to the manifold. Water will run down the outside of the manifold and seep into that area and rust the metal in contact with the gasket, and also follow the bolt into the hole in the flange area and rust from the inside out. So its possible to have a rusty junkpile of rust and gasket debris around those bolt areas that we might not notice when we reassemble it because we would need to stoop down lower and examine it in a rather awkward position, and the lighting is usually rather bad anyway. So rather then having to take everything apart again to check we can instead just use that little red straw on the spray nozzle to precisely deliver a small amount of spray to diagnose whether we have a vacuum leak somewhere in these areas or not. As long as you can get the surface clean and smooth and without heavy rust pitting it should not need a sealant of any kind.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Okay, I see what you mean.


linquistmarc said:


> Using the starting fluid was something a close mechanic friend showed me. It's a quick diagnoses tool to eliminate possible causes. We have all probably had a small engine for a lawn mower or similar equipment that wouldn't start or stay running if not for a continuous flow of starting fluid going into the carburetor throat. But that usually indicates that there is a vacuum leak somewhere and the starting fluid is simply correcting the fuel/air ratio enough to allow the engine to run. And simply redirecting the spray to more precise areas like where gaskets have probably dried out and shrunk will usually reveal the leak that caused the engine to not start or stay running. The places on these old tractors that can cause vacuum leak problems is where the carb bolts to the manifold. Water will run down the outside of the manifold and seep into that area and rust the metal in contact with the gasket, and also follow the bolt into the hole in the flange area and rust from the inside out. So its possible to have a rusty junkpile of rust and gasket debris around those bolt areas that we might not notice when we reassemble it because we would need to stoop down lower and examine it in a rather awkward position, and the lighting is usually rather bad anyway. So rather then having to take everything apart again to check we can instead just use that little red straw on the spray nozzle to precisely deliver a small amount of spray to diagnose whether we have a vacuum leak somewhere in these areas or not. As long as you can get the surface clean and smooth and without heavy rust pitting it should not need a sealant of any kind.


Okay, I see what you mean. 
Our 8N is stored indoors and covered with a large fabric cover. The tractor has little rust but could still be sucking in air at the flange, preventing fuel to be drawn in. The gasket is new as I said earlier. The old gasket came off clean.

I will get some Starting fluid but not sure how much more I can tighten the nuts and if that doesn't cure the problem, I can remove the carb again and clean the intake manifold surface. Failing that, I guess using Sealant is the only other solution.
Thanks JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

JB7 the secret is to tighten both carby to manifold bolts evenly, and I am sure you are doing that, sometimes a person will tighten one bolt fully and squashes the gasket on that side and then when tightening the other bolt, this then tries to squash the gasket across the face of the carby and manifold flanges and invariably bends the alloy flange of the carby, over tightening the bolts will do the same thing to the carby flange, should you remove the carby again, run a straight edge across the flange to check.

I have to ask this seeing that the tractor was running and parked and then no start, was it sitting for long?, have you checked the compression on each cylinder, there may be a stuck inlet or exhaust valve and that will throw the start up considerably, you don't need a gauge, just use your thumb over the plug hole and have someone crank the engine and if there is enough compression, this will lift the thumb enough to escape, just a thought, because something simple happened while the tractor was parked, you have spark, you have fuel, but do you have compression?.


----------



## Rolex (11 mo ago)

If you don't have starting fluid spray on penetrating oil like WD40 or PB blaster will do the same thing.

The motors sound will change when the spray blocks the leak or is sucked through it.

Check the adjusting screws for leaks too.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> JB7 the secret is to tighten both carby to manifold bolts evenly, and I am sure you are doing that, sometimes a person will tighten one bolt fully and squashes the gasket on that side and then when tightening the other bolt, this then tries to squash the gasket across the face of the carby and manifold flanges and invariably bends the alloy flange of the carby, over tightening the bolts will do the same thing to the carby flange, should you remove the carby again, run a straight edge across the flange to check.
> 
> I have to ask this seeing that the tractor was running and parked and then no start, was it sitting for long?, have you checked the compression on each cylinder, there may be a stuck inlet or exhaust valve and that will throw the start up considerably, you don't need a gauge, just use your thumb over the plug hole and have someone crank the engine and if there is enough compression, this will lift the thumb enough to escape, just a thought, because something simple happened while the tractor was parked, you have spark, you have fuel, but do you have compression?.


Thanks.
Here is the latest from today...
First, I found the points closed so much that it had constant power at the distributor side terminal when engine cranked. This changed when I adjusted to the correct gap. Using my spark tester At the plug, I was still not getting spark at the plugs. The inside of the distributor cap was clean, no corrosion and in good shape as was the rotor.

I then completely removed the Cap and found the spark wire ends to be corroded as were their sockets. I sanded all the ends and sockets but only a little change, and got regular intermittent spark. So, next week, I will order new cap, rotors, condensor, wires etc. I did get intermittent spark on cyl. #2. The tractor hasn't run since December last year.

On another note, I snugged the carb to manifold nuts a bit. We tried to start the tractor after all this but other than some minor exhaust, it would not start, even after spraying starter fluid at the carb to manifold flange. We tried to start it again without the starting fluid but fuel is not reaching the cylinders, or not much anyway. Once I pushed in the choke rod, fuel ran out the carb. So using the choke draws fuel, just not up into the manifold. Obviously, I have 2 issues here. The ignition and spark problem and the other to do with fuel to the cylinders. I will do the thumb compression test next time. I will deal with the ignition one first. Any suggestions as to how to test the coil And, if I should use a resistive coil as there is supposed to be a resistor (Ballast??) behind the dash somewhere. If I can determine if my coil is good, that would be one more possibility ruled out.

I also installed new 437 Autolite spark plugs and gapped them to .020. Btw, my points are clean and not corroded or pitted. They are just like new, the condensor as well. I realize a clean condensor means little except that I may have replaced both over the last year or so. I do not recall.
So, this was my progress today. 
JB


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Rolex said:


> If you don't have starting fluid spray on penetrating oil like WD40 or PB blaster will do the same thing.
> 
> The motors sound will change when the spray blocks the leak or is sucked through it.
> 
> Check the adjusting screws for leaks too.


Good to know, thanks. Using the starter fluid today made no change in the sound as we attempted to start the tractor many times.


Rolex said:


> If you don't have starting fluid spray on penetrating oil like WD40 or PB blaster will do the same thing.
> 
> The motors sound will change when the spray blocks the leak or is sucked through it.
> 
> Check the adjusting screws for leaks too.


Good to know, thanks I will check the screws out as well. I feel that we must be drawing air from somewhere because fuel seems not to be getting to the cylinders. I will concentrate on this issue once I get the ignition system issue squared away. 
This has certainly been a learning experience and I am making notes as I go for future reference.

JB
JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

If you want to check the ign coil, do this.

Remove HT lead from distributor cap, roll engine over until points close, using a flat blade screw driver, place between movable contact and points base, hold the HT lead from ign coil about 1/4" from a good earth, turn ignition switch to run and flick the screw driver to open and close the points, if you get a nice blue spark at 1/4", open the gap to around 3/8" and if the spark will jump this distance, then the coil can be considered ok, didn't have test gear in the old days.

Did the distributor have the carbon rubbing block under and inside where the coil HT lead plugged in?.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> If you want to check the ign coil, do this.
> 
> Remove HT lead from distributor cap, roll engine over until points close, using a flat blade screw driver, place between movable contact and points base, hold the HT lead from ign coil about 1/4" from a good earth, turn ignition switch to run and flick the screw driver to open and close the points, if you get a nice blue spark at 1/4", open the gap to around 3/8" and if the spark will jump this distance, then the coil can be considered ok, didn't have test gear in the old days.
> 
> Did the distributor have the carbon rubbing block under and inside where the coil HT lead plugged in?.


I will try this thank you. I suspect that replacing the HT leads and cap should help immensely. I did my best to remove the white and black corrosion deposit. The distributor sockets were not so easily or completely cleaned.

The carbon button where the rotor makes contact is there and in good shape. The rotor is in great shape as well. The HT wires are pretty dry and stiff and I will replace them as well just to cover my bases. After I cleaned the leads and the distributor sockets, I expected spark at the cap to be considerably better but was not. Hopefully, ignition parts will be readily available. I need to use the tractor soon to get equipment put away as time is running out but I feel we are close to getting it running.

JB


----------



## Bertrrr (Jan 28, 2021)

Might run a compression test on this machine 
Need three things for an engine to run, 
Fuel,
Spark,
Compression 
if your timing is correct, this thing has to run


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Bertrrr said:


> Might run a compression test on this machine
> Need three things for an engine to run,
> Fuel,
> Spark,
> ...


Agreed. My compression tester is a solid affair and to tall to fit between the engine head and the fuel tank. I was going to try the thumb test. Right now, I am chasing down new ignition parts and HT wires (New Holland no longer produces these or Tune up kits). They can get parts individual but caps are back ordered due to shortage. So, trying jobbers etc. I replaced the plugs with new. The old ones were Champions and not Autolites which the new ones are. I don't know anyone with a flex compression tester. 
Thanks JB


----------



## Joe.S.AK (Nov 26, 2020)

Well JB, it seems that everything ELSE has been checked / fixed - but fuel running out of the carb when choked, it seems to me, is an internal problem in the carb causing a fuel obstruction.

Carefully removing the carb, noting settings and then thoroughly clean everything again until squeaky clean would have cleared up the fuel + air to the cylinder part of the equation. Did you use shop air to blow passageways clean?

At that point, blowing into the fuel inlet (with the carb upright) should produce air flow and when the carb is inverted no air flow. With everything adjusted to 'as found' (or alternately to new carb settings) then it should be time to retry starting.

So, intake air clear from air filter - check.
Fuel to carb, through float, through the run jet, mixing with the air and on to the cylinder - check.
Same for idle circuit - ?
Check the butterfly valve for choke action - ?
Compression good in all 4 - Working on that.
Key on - check.
Checked all wiring connections - I think.
New distrib cap, wires and gaped plugs - check
Good 1/4" spark jump and blue spark - ?
Timing and points properly set - check.
Key on and not in reverse - ?
Battery fully charged - ?
Engine turns over not-too-fast and not-too-slow - ?

Well, I'm all out of things - Let us know how you're doing.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

JB7 said:


> Agreed. My compression tester is a solid affair and to tall to fit between the engine head and the fuel tank. I was going to try the thumb test. Right now, I am chasing down new ignition parts and HT wires (New Holland no longer produces these or Tune up kits). They can get parts individual but caps are back ordered due to shortage. So, trying jobbers etc. I replaced the plugs with new. The old ones were Champions and not Autolites which the new ones are. I don't know anyone with a flex compression tester.
> Thanks JB


You don't need a compression tester, what we are looking for is a stuck valve in the open position, and using the thumb will do this nicely with the engine turning over, if you don't get a phhhtt!! at each plug hole then you will know there is a stuck valve.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

Joe.S.AK said:


> Well JB, it seems that everything ELSE has been checked / fixed - but fuel running out of the carb when choked, it seems to me, is an internal problem in the carb causing a fuel obstruction.
> 
> Carefully removing the carb, noting settings and then thoroughly clean everything again until squeaky clean would have cleared up the fuel + air to the cylinder part of the equation. Did you use shop air to blow passageways clean?
> 
> ...


Thank you for this comprehensive list. Most of which I have done. The carb was removed and thoroughly cleaned with carb cleaner,rinsed and dried with compressed air. I have just done the following:
Purchased and installed new HT wires, new Distributor cap and rotor, new coil and new wire from -ve coul terminal to distributor, rechecked points gap and confirmed wiring order and ignition firing sequence. The Condensor is coming today. For good extra measure, I removed the new plugs and gave 3 good squirts of oil into each cylinder.

The great news is that while I flooded the engine on first try after these installs, the engine sputtered and eventually caught on the second try. I ran it for over 2 hours and drove it. It misses a bit but much less than before. 

The coil terminals crumbled upon removal and the distributor lead also fell apart, so 2 issues there. I also sprayed Quick Start at the carb base with no effect, so I am pretty sure that there is no issue there. I am not leaking any fuel and the engine is running smoothly with a miss here and there. But we have success!!

I want to thank everyone for all their help, suggestions and patience as it is most appreciated.

JB


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> You don't need a compression tester, what we are looking for is a stuck valve in the open position, and using the thumb will do this nicely with the engine turning over, if you don't get a phhhtt!! at each plug hole then you will know there is a stuck valve.


Thank you Fred and I did as you suggested and got that psst on each cylinder. I was thinking that maybe I did have a stuck valve but as I said in my last post, we have had success and the tractor is now running. Thank you once again for your help and time. Your forum is the best and much was learned in the process with a most satisfying result. I have been singing your forum's praises and will continue to do so.

JB


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Great to hear JB and hopefully you will be able to get some work done now.


----------



## JB7 (4 mo ago)

FredM said:


> Great to hear JB and hopefully you will be able to get some work done now.


Yes thank you. It was worth the time and effort and now I can shuffle equipment into tight spot storage where the bigger tractor cannot go or manoeuvre. Once again, I could not have done this alone. I am also a little more knowledgeable in the old school ways. 

Back to the barnyard...

JB


----------

