# MF165 massive hydraulic fluid "weep hole" leak



## dcharette

Hello all!

I'm the proud owner of a 1965 MF165 with an AD4.203 diesel and multi-power transmission which was restored by the previous owner to a near original state about 5 years ago. The only thing they didn't rebuild was the drive train and transmission.

Today I was out plowing and after about an hour of use, I noticed reduced hydraulic pressure and could no longer lift the plow. I got down to find the main "weep hole" under the transmission leaking with a steady stream and the 2nd "weep hole" just under the end of the engine where it bolts to the transmission leaking in droplets about once a second.

I've verified at least that the fluid is NOT engine oil, but appears to be hydraulic/transmission oil. The engine oil dipstick still reads full and the leaking oil is a different color than the engine oil, so that's at least my "verification." 

My question is simply what should I be looking for as the cause? I'm guessing that the oil seals on the input shaft to the transmission might be the culprit as they're most likely the originals and potentially 50 years old. Is there anything else in this multi-power transmission that could be leaking? 

I was using the multi-power function today before the failure when I had the plow raised and was making the turns around to re-enter the field. So, is there anything with that clutch/linkage/valve for the multi-power that could be suspect to this leak? 

And finally, the previous owner never utilized the hydraulics, and so is there anything with the hydraulic pump or associated components that could be suspect to cause the leak to pass back to the transmission housing and out the "weep holes?"

Thanks a million for any insight or help you could give me. I just don't want to go to the work of splitting open the tractor without having some sense of confidence of where I'm targeting to make the repair.

Have a nice day! 

Dan


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## sixbales

Howdy Dan,

Welcome to the Tractor Forum.

QUOTE: "I noticed reduced hydraulic pressure and could no longer lift the plow. I got down to find the main "weep hole" under the transmission leaking with a steady stream and the 2nd "weep hole" just under the end of the engine where it bolts to the transmission leaking in droplets about once a second."
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I can see the "second weep hole leaking in droplets about once a second" could be a leaking transmission input shaft seal (or engine rear main seal), but the main seal under the transmission leaking with a steady stream.....Is that weep hole behind the input shaft seal? If so, it reflects a leak elsewhere?


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## dcharette

Hi sixbales,

I've attached an image of the location of the "weep hole" leaks. I've also got a parts breakdown pic of the transmission. And my theory at this point is that when I was using the multi-power in "HI", there was plenty of hydraulic pressure that seeped out around the input shaft and seals. I will hopefully have some time today to refill the transmission with oil and try running the tractor multi-power in "LOW" and see if I get a leak again. If not, I can switch to "HI" and monitor it closely and see if the leaking starts. I suppose if it does, then I know where the leak is. Does this seem like a reasonable guess/test?

Thanks!


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## sixbales

Nice looking tractor...I can see why you are a proud owner!

Do you have a service or shop manual for your 165? Normally, they have a troubleshooting section that would cover leakage out of the transmission weep hole. This weep hole has to be a "tattle tale" for something leaking inside the tranny? An I&T shop manual ($30-$35) would cover this. 

I have read on the internet that operating in "LOW" will stop this leak. And you are planning to check this out. I'll be curious to see the results.

One of your responders on TBN mentioned that there is a hydraulic line (half metal tube & half rubber hose) from the auxiliary pump to the multi power system. If the hose sprung a leak, that might explain the relatively sudden massive leakage you experienced.


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## Fedup

The hose in question is not the problem. That hose/line is in the transmission and cannot leak into the clutch housing. It supplies another line that IS in the bell housing which delivers oil to the multipower valve, but that line is not a high failure item. Your leak is in the retainer assembly at the rear of the clutch housing. You see oil running from the weep hole because this is the intended path of escape for fluid in that area. You also see fluid dripping from an area further forward because there is a cover plate(or there was before the loader cross frame was installed) that allows access to the clutch area for adjustment of a two stage clutch. You don't have a two stage clutch because you have a multipower transmission, but you DO have the opening. You WILL need to split the tractor to fix the leaks. The commonly replaced items are mainly two sets of cast iron seal rings, some gaskets, o rings, maybe a needle bearing and a lip seal or two. Any half way experienced Massey counter person can lay those parts on the counter from memory once you provide the model number/I.D. information for your particular tractor. 
Oh, by the way, running the multipower in low may diminish the leak, but it won't go away.
I agree that a $30 investment in a manual is money well spent for any number of reasons.


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## dcharette

Thanks guys for all the comments!

And I've pretty much confirmed what Fedup has detailed so well.

I ran the tractor today for about an hour. I rigged up a bucket underneath the "weep hole" to catch the drippings as I drove around and tested it. And while running it in low, the leak is definitely diminished, but not stopped. Now, once warmed up, I ended up with a drop per second or so.

As well, I've also noticed that there is a sputtering of oil coming out of a window in the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, that pretty much pinpoints the leak to the input drive shaft as it must be seeping through even without the high pressure applied in HI mode on the multipower pushing the oil. 

So, it's pretty clear I'll need to split the tractor to get at those seals as Fedup has listed. But, also, what about the drive shaft that the seal rings go around, could the shaft be worn down now in the position where the rings are? And, if so... is it possible to weld and fill material back in the grooves and machine it back true or would I need to just get all new shafts? 

And finally, I have a little bit of plowing yet to do this week before putting the tractor to bed for the winter. If I continue to run it, will I do any damage to the clutch/flywheel area in the bell housing if I watch and maintain my oil levels and just catch these drippings?

Thanks all! 

Dan


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## Fedup

The shafts/ring grooves will not require any attention. As long as you keep the fluid level at least showing on the dipstick, you will probably do no damage. You should consider replacing(or at least inspecting) the clutch while the tractor is apart, as it may well have some oil in places not intended.


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## Masontel

What exactly does the multi power transmission do? Being new to my Massey Ferguson 165 I'm not yet sure what this feature does.


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## Fedup

"Multipower" is the term Massey Ferguson chose to describe their version of a two speed "shift on the go" feature commonly used in tractor transmissions during the 60's and 70's. It adds a capability to gear drive tractors whereby the operator can be driving the tractor and when a bit of extra power or torque is required, shift to a slightly lower speed without using the clutch and stopping the tractor to change gears. In Massey's case, it was expected that the tractor would be operated in high most of the time and shifted to low only when the need for torque increase was required, as the system uses a one way sprag clutch for the low range which only drives when pulling. When coasting, it freewheels and has been known to cause a few surprises. 
Most tractor makers of the day had such a feature, but all used slightly different principles. Ford had the Dual Power, IH had the Torque Amplifier, AC had the Power Director, etc. The main idea was to provide the operator with the ability to split any given speed range with a hi/lo capability while "on the go."


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## 120056

I had the same problem which is easy to fix, you will need to split the tractor and you remove the multi power input housing where there are 2 lots of rings so 4 rings in total and 2 seals to replace as well as an o ring or gasket, its probably never been touched and is worn out. the clutch will be ok with a good cleaner over it. try not to use it to much like it is or oil will get on the clutch plates and it will turn into an even bigger job.


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## Masontel

Thanks Fedup


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## shona13

The Massey 65 did not come out with a single stage clutch .
The clutch fitted to ALL 65's was 9 inch pto/11 inch main plate.
The leak that is being discussed .
could be .
One the Multi power control /shuttle valve ,either the body gasket or most commonly the Quad rings .
The two hard steel pipes you mention that will not leak can leak if someone who does not know what they are doing tightens the fittings to tight and damages the flared end of the pipe or pipes.
the cast steel shaft rings are as said subject to wear and require oil flow to lubricate them ,in high the rings are Wet ,in low mp they will get what oil is left in the oil supply and when that is gone the rings will run dry , the pto input housing that the rings run on is also cast and as such will wear just the same as the rings do .
replacing new rings on a worn /grooved shaft will NOT fix the oil leak.
I have in the past machined the pto housing out and installed a cast prefinished sleeve being finished to size after preheat ,This will fix the leak.
The oil leaking from the Front weep hole and the "Window) is an indicator for the rear crankshaft seal only.
The engine has an adapter plate that bolts to the rear of the engine which I am sure you already know ,the adapter plate is sealed to the rear of the engine block and as such Transmission oil cannot leak out of the front weep hole, this indicates a rear crankshaft seal failure.
Happy days.
Hutch.


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## dcharette

*It's finally split open to see the culprit*

Hello everyone!

So, firstly, thanks for all the comments and support with this problem. I've finally had some time to dedicate to splitting the tractor to find out what exactly caused this massive leak.

And, as you can see in the attached pic, the problem was pretty obvious the moment the light of day hit that input shaft. It seems the main seal has cracked apart, rather dramatically.

I wanted to make this posting to at least keep everyone updated on this, as I'm sure it's a bit of curiosity to some of you who enjoy seeing these kinds of things. It's not everyday we get to see a 50 year old tractor torn apart to inspect.

But also, I wanted to further ask the advice of all of you who have been so helpful and encouraging to see if there were some further thoughts on things I should do while I've got this open. Of course, I'll need to correctly identify and get a hold of the seal that has broken, but also I'd like to get a little further in there behind the input shaft cover and replace the other seals and split washers that appear there on the parts breakdown. 

And there has been one comment in favor of replacing the clutch, and one comment in favor of cleaning the clutch. So, any further comments regarding the clutch? I know for a fact as I was using this to finish my fall work(about 3 hours of total plowing after I discovered the leak out the weep hole) that hydraulic/tranny oil must have surely got on the clutch as it was sputtering out the top of the bell housing where you can see the flywheel. So, with that in mind, I'm assuming the clutch has got oil all over it. But I suppose a good dousing with clutch/brake cleaner could take care of that. 

And while I like the idea of preventative maintenance, especially while I've got it open... I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to open it up. Most of the time consumed in the process so far was fabricating the wheel stands to hold the rear of the tractor up as I separated it. So, now that is done, I don't see it as such a big chore to open it up again in the future should other issues arise, maybe an hour total of bolts and wiring removal to get that part done.

I'm located in Europe in Czech Republic, does anyone have any idea about how to figure out the correct Massey part numbering for the seals I need to get a hold of? The parts breakdown I have is a full featured shop manual with about 1000 pages, but the parts breakdown doesn't give the Massey numbers, they're only index numbers(1, 2, 3 etc...) for identification on the drawing.

Also, regarding the hydraulic oil... I have a neighbor who is farming on a much larger scale who uses hydraulic oil by the barrel and can give me some for this job to refill when I'm done. It's Shell Spirax S4 TXM. Would this be alright to use or do I need to seek out some other hydraulic/tranny oil for this 1965 MF 165?

Thanks everyone!
Will of course keep everyone updated as this progresses.


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## dcharette

*Bushing material, brass, steel or ?*

Hi Guys,

So, quick update on progress. It took a bit of detective work to locate exactly the parts that are needed for this repair. I got access to the AGCO parts books and found that this transmission apparently is a French manufactured version. And with that, the input shaft housing is a little different than what I've found in a lot of other 165 transmission drawings and diagrams that I could find online. There is this oil seal which seats over the end of the input shaft housing on a small rabbitted external section, capping it off and forming a flush fit as if it were one diameter throughout the length of the housing. On mine, you can see the rubber has pulled out and left the metal body of it behind. And, underneath this end cap oil seal, there is an internal rabbit in which a brass bushing was fit. This is what has cracked on mine. Inside this bushing is a single helical spiral that is about 2mm wide which I assume is to allow a little oil into and perform some lubrication between this bushing and the input shaft.

It seems that this bushing is no longer available to purchase, so I'm going to machine a new one. And, it appears the original material it was made from is brass. My question is if any of you guys were in the same position, would you use brass for this, steel or some other alloy in order to make it a little more robust to the stress and perhaps prevent this from happening in the future?

Thanks for the help on this! 

Dan


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## shona13

Hi.
Replacing the seal and bush will stop the leak for a short time, the reason that the seal failed is the fact that the cast sealing rings on the pto and transmission input shafts are worn or broken read my reply further up the page or replace the bush and seal .
it will only take you an hour to do the job again but this time it will cost you more than the tractor is worth that is if you can find the parts.
Happy days.
Hutch. 
p.s. use tractor transmission oil or BP TF 12 this has an anti foaming additive


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