# Filling tractor tires



## JGPenfield

I punctured my tractor tire that was full of water. I am buying a new one with a tube. I live in North Texas where it freezes about three times per year. Rarely below 25 and never below freezing for 24 hours. I have a Ford 3000 with 48 HP and I do not have a front end loader. Should I add fluid to this tire for ballast or is there a need since I don’t have a front end loader? If I add fluid, can I use plain water considering my location? I see that you should remove the valve stem to add water, but can that be done on a tube?


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## Hoodoo Valley

It all depends on what you use the tractor for. If you find that you have a hard time with traction, then I'd ballast the tire, myself. Given the temps and duration you mention, you'd never have an issue with getting a lump of ice in the tire. However, there could be an issue of ice heave and damage in the valve stem if it was pointed downward and full of fluid at the time you hit freezing temperatures.


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## pogobill

How bad was the puncture on that tire? If you are going ahead with the purchase of a tube anyways, get an opinion as to whether the tire can be reused. I run R-4 tubeless, with tubes in the front tires so far, due to punctures. Is your tire ripped or slashed? As Hoodoo mentioned, what are you using the tractor for? 
I'd investigate the price and availability of rear wheel weights rather than fluid.


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## George of Buford

I would definitely add fluid to the new tire. It would not be good to have fluid in one tire and not the other. Napa sells a garden hose adapter to add water using the valve stem. I would install a couple gallons of ethylene glycol in the tube before adding the water. Getting the antifreeze into the tube will be a problem. I have a small pump up sprayer tank that I adapted to fit a valve stem to install the antifreeze. A small squeeze bottle with a piece of tubing would also work, but would be slow.

George of Buford


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## JGPenfield

I use it for a brush hog, post hole digger, box blade, wood chipper, pulling down trees and hauling things around. No plowing or cultivating. The gash is huge. I did it with a custom made box blade. The tooth was angled forward and caught the wheel when I angled it for smoothing. I should have removed the tooth and used a non angled tooth. I keep learning. 


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## FredM

when you get the tyre and tube assembled, you will have to inflate the tube to seat the tyre onto the rim before you fill with water, use a lubricant around the tyre bead to help the bead seat onto the rim, I used detergent and water if I didn't have the proper seating lubricant on hand, after seating, release the air, have the tractor sitting on a jack so as to support the wheel with the tyre resting on the ground a little, tyre not squashed out, this is to support the tube's valve stem while filling with water, also have the fill valve on the tube at 12 o'clock and only fill to this height, overfill and you will be riding on a brick, when full, remove filling hose and allow the water to drain to the valve level before attaching the air hose, 12 to 15psi is all you will need for air pressure after filling.

if you don't want to fill the tyre, you will need to drain the other tyre to balance the tractor.


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## JGPenfield

This made me think of the advantage of a tube over tubeless. I like the idea of filling a tube with water and keeping it contained in the tube instead of having my rim continually exposed to water to rust away. Maybe the switch from tubes to tubeless tires is the reason people stopped using Ca Chloride. 


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## pogobill

pogobill said:


> How bad was the puncture on that tire? If you are going ahead with the purchase of a tube anyways, get an opinion as to whether the tire can be reused. I run R-4 tubeless, with tubes in the front tires so far, due to punctures. Is your tire ripped or slashed? As Hoodoo mentioned, what are you using the tractor for?
> I'd investigate the price and availability of rear wheel weights rather than fluid.


My Bad! I was assuming that you would either ballast the new tire, or drain the old one. I should have been more clear.


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## JGPenfield

This is my pretty new tire and my old tire. I smelled and, believe it or not, I tasted the fluid in the old tire. It had no smell or taste, so it is most likely plain water. The rim had some rust in it and the tire man said 2 gallons of antifreeze would help protect the rim. Do y’all agree with that? 
Now my other problem. The left tire was mounted for a right tire and the tread is backwards. I want to have the tire remounted and I want to change out the inner tube because it is relatively cheap for a tube. From these pictures, do I need a new tire or just run it till it pops? I don’t make a living with the tractor. I just like having it around. 


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## FredM

you could have placed the left wheel onto the right axle and mounted the new tyre for the left axle, if you can afford another new tyre, I think that would be the way to go seeing that you are going to demount the old tyre and refit, and that old tyre is well worn.


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## Ultradog

An unballasted tractor can not put it's full horsepower to the ground. The tires just slip.
Ballast also makes for a more stable, safer tractor.
I recommend you refill with fluid and yes, the idea of adding a couple/few gallons of antifreeze to the mix is a good one. You don't care if they get slushy. You just don't want them to freeze hard.
Freezing hard won't hurt a tire - unless you drive it that way. If you do it will quickly wreck a tire.
PS, a 3000 is Not 48 horsepower.
They are 38 - on a good day.


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## JGPenfield

Ultradog said:


> An unballasted tractor can not put it's full horsepower to the ground. The tires just slip.
> Ballast also makes for a more stable, safer tractor.
> I recommend you refill with fluid and yes, the idea of adding a couple/few gallons of antifreeze to the mix is a good one. You don't care if they get slushy. You just don't want them to freeze hard.
> Freezing hard won't hurt a tire - unless you drive it that way. If you do it will quickly wreck a tire.
> PS, a 3000 is Not 48 horsepower.
> They are 38 - on a good day.


Thanks for the reply. My tires slipped even when they had ballast. The left side always slipped first because it was mounted backwards. I decided to spend the money and replace the left tire so that the treads were equal on both sides and then fill them with water plus antifreeze. 

Regarding horsepower, it depends on what horsepower you are talking about. 
From tractordata.com: 
Diesel engine horsepower : 47
PTO horsepower: 38
Drawbar horsepower: 33
The drawbar horsepower might increase with new tires, with treads both facing the same direction and loaded with water. I think the drawbar horsepower is tested with no ballast in the tires. 


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## Ultradog

JGPenfield said:


> Thanks for the reply. My tires slipped even when they had ballast. The left side always slipped first because it was mounted backwards. I decided to spend the money and replace the left tire so that the treads were equal on both sides and then fill them with water plus antifreeze.
> 
> Regarding horsepower, it depends on what horsepower you are talking about.
> From tractordata.com:
> Diesel engine horsepower : 47
> PTO horsepower: 38
> Drawbar horsepower: 33
> The drawbar horsepower might increase with new tires, with treads both facing the same direction and loaded with water. I think the drawbar horsepower is tested with no ballast in the tires.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tractor Forum



Old school vs new school.
The purpose of the Nebraska Tests was because manufacturers were wildly inflating their HP ratings.
The state of NE passed a law that if you wanted to sell a tractor there you must have it tested at their facility.
The rating was published with pto HP as the the standard. They also gave the hp ratings at the drawbar and if so equipped, at the belt pully.
Pto hp became the industry's gold standard.
Modern tractors are no longer tested at Univ of NE and the industry has gone back to inflating their ratings - primarily by measuring them at the flywheel. Some even run the test with no hyd pumps, alternators, water pumps, fans and other sources of parasitic loss to improve the tractor's rating.
It's a hoax as the buyer assumes the tractor is rated for X amount of work. They are not capable of that much work.
I have a 3000 diesel and rate it by the old school rules - about 37 or 38 hp.
I have a 3 cyl 4000 D which the NE test rated at 52 pto hp and a 3 cyl 4000 gasser which is rated about 47 pto hp.
If I put both tractors to work the gasser will eat my 3000's lunch and the diesel more-so.
And they will eat the lunch of any modern flywheel rated 50 hp tractor.
It's is your tractor and you may inflate the HP as much as you wish but I say on tractors built before about 1990 Old School Rules.
If you click the link below then click and download the pdf file it will show you the scientific truth of the matter.
Have fun with your tractor. It is a great old machine

www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/2/5/259-ford-3000-tests.html


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## bmaverick

JGPenfield said:


> I punctured my tractor tire that was full of water. I am buying a new one with a tube. I live in North Texas where it freezes about three times per year. Rarely below 25 and never below freezing for 24 hours. I have a Ford 3000 with 48 HP and I do not have a front end loader. Should I add fluid to this tire for ballast or is there a need since I don’t have a front end loader? If I add fluid, can I use plain water considering my location? I see that you should remove the valve stem to add water, but can that be done on a tube?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tractor Forum


If you have livestock and/or domestic animals or even a garden and/or well on the homestead, I would highly advise using water and RV/Marine propylene glycol (pet safe) as the tire ballast. This will prevent toxic chemicals from entering your soil or water table. 

As for adding the 30% pink pet safe propylene glycol to 60% water for your location, make sure the valve stem is at the top of tire position. This way, it will not leak out due to gravity.  Then place back in the stem insert to fill with air. Since you do not have a loader, about 1/3rd or a little less fluid to fill the inside tire volume. 

Propylene glycol is FDA approved as a gelatin and sweetener in salad dressing to gummy bears. 
When was the last time you ever saw Swedish fish frozen. LOL


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## bmaverick

Ultradog said:


> Old school vs new school.
> The purpose of the Nebraska Tests was because manufacturers were wildly inflating their HP ratings. The state of NE passed a law that if you wanted to sell a tractor there you must have it tested at their facility. The rating was published with pto HP as the the standard. They also gave the hp ratings at the drawbar and if so equipped, at the belt pully.
> 
> www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/2/5/259-ford-3000-tests.html


Exactly. My tractor is basically a John Deere 850, just painted Yanmar Red. Thus, no matter what is posted by the resellers and elsewhere one the web, I revert back to the NE data for the JD 850 as being the tell-tale performance specs.


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## George of Buford

Automotive ethylene glycol has rust/corrosion inhibitors. Propylene glycol does not. You can actually buy rust inhibitors for propylene glycol.

I was a JD tech and filled many tractor tires with ethylene glycol. I have used it on my own tractors for over 20 years. If I ever had to change a tire, the rims were not rusted.

I once did some research on the comparison of the toxicity among ethylene glycol, propylene glycol and windshield washer fluid. All three of these are used to fill tires. The most toxic is windshield washer fluid because it contains methyl alcohol. Next was ethylene glycol which was rated as mildly toxic and it breaks down quickly in soil. Some areas still use it for deicing planes since it works better at colder temperatures. 

George of Buford


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## bmaverick

George of Buford said:


> Automotive ethylene glycol has rust/corrosion inhibitors. Propylene glycol does not. You can actually buy rust inhibitors for propylene glycol.
> 
> I was a JD tech and filled many tractor tires with ethylene glycol. I have used it on my own tractors for over 20 years. If I ever had to change a tire, the rims were not rusted.
> 
> I once did some research on the comparison of the toxicity among ethylene glycol, propylene glycol and windshield washer fluid. All three of these are used to fill tires. The most toxic is windshield washer fluid because it contains methyl alcohol. Next was ethylene glycol which was rated as mildly toxic and it breaks down quickly in soil. Some areas still use it for deicing planes since it works better at colder temperatures.
> 
> George of Buford


Cool being a JD tech. I've been a General Motors HVAC Climate Control Engineer for over 14 years and then a Powertrain Cooling Engineer for over 6 years. 

There are PG coolants that HAVE corrosion inhibitors. The Sierra coolant by PEAK. 
https://peakauto.com/products/antifreeze-coolants/automotive/sierra 
Safer than conventional antifreeze for people, pets and wildlife.
PEAK Antifreeze & Coolants meet or exceed all industry specifications and performance standards. A wide variety of patented formulas protects against scale, rust and corrosion of cooling system metals, while providing maximum freeze-up and boil-over protection.

EG coolant can make an adult or animal go blind. It can kill a child or small animal as well. Guess that isn't too toxic. 

For GM large chassis vehicles, PG was always on the radar for RVs and Coach vehicles.


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## George of Buford

*Comparison with Ethylene Glycol*
In comparing the toxicity of ethylene glycol with that of propylene glycol, LaKind _et al._ (1999) stated that “From the standpoint of lethality, acute effects, and reproductive, developmental, and kidney toxicity, the toxicity of ethylene glycol exceeds that of propylene glycol (LaKind, McKenna _et al._ 1999). Further, localized dermal effects from ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are both mild, with data suggesting that propylene glycol may have a skin contact sensitization potential. Finally, propylene glycol exposure in laboratory animals has been associated with reversible hematological changes; no data were located for ethylene glycol from which to draw a toxicological comparison.”

*Clinical Presentation*
Although the toxicity of propylene glycol is low, if excessively large amounts are absorbed, the following health effects may be seen


an elevated osmolal gap,
severe metabolic acidosis (caused by the metabolism of propylene glycol to lactic acid), and
coma, seizures, and hypoglycemia (rarely, among patients who ingested large amounts of propylene glycol over several days).


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## George of Buford

*Ethylene glycol poisoning*
"Intoxication - ethylene glycol

Ethylene glycol is a colorless, odorless, sweet-tasting chemical. It is poisonous if swallowed.

Ethylene glycol may be swallowed accidentally, or it may be taken deliberately in a suicide attempt *or as a substitute for drinking alcohol (ethanol).*

Background concentrations of ethylene glycol in air, surface water, groundwater, drinking water, soil, and sediment are not available. Ethylene glycol is not expected to be found in the environment away from areas where it is released *since this substance is degraded within days to a few weeks in air, water, and soil.*

To protect pets and people from antifreeze poisoning, product manufacturers as well as some humane groups propose adding a bitter, taste-aversive agent such as denatonium benzoate (Bitrex®) to ethylene glycol-containing automobile antifreeze, *and federal legislation has been proposed to this effect. *

*Ethylene Glycol vs Propylene glycol for automotive antifreeze*

More antifreeze is needed with propylene glycol to achieve the same freeze point.

Ethylene glycol has superior heat transfer efficiency due to lower viscosity - but more fluid must be circulated to transfer the same amount of energy since Propylene glycol has higher specific heat. This would mean a larger radiator so manufacturers would not like this."

My SWAG is that most ethylene glycol poisonings are not caused by a leaking tire. The concentration is very weak in a filled tire. It is not a 50-50 solution. Most animals might be exposed by a leaking or overheated radiator on a driveway. Most kids do not go around licking fluid leaking from a tire. 

I always properly dispose of my old antifreeze. In the old days, I would just drain it on my driveway and washed it away with a hose.

George of Buford

PS Not just my opinion. I pasted this information from a number of sources.


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## bmaverick

George of Buford said:


> *Ethylene glycol poisoning*
> "Intoxication - ethylene glycol
> 
> Ethylene glycol is a colorless, odorless, sweet-tasting chemical. It is poisonous if swallowed.
> 
> Ethylene glycol may be swallowed accidentally, or it may be taken deliberately in a suicide attempt *or as a substitute for drinking alcohol (ethanol).*
> 
> Background concentrations of ethylene glycol in air, surface water, groundwater, drinking water, soil, and sediment are not available. Ethylene glycol is not expected to be found in the environment away from areas where it is released *since this substance is degraded within days to a few weeks in air, water, and soil.*
> 
> To protect pets and people from antifreeze poisoning, product manufacturers as well as some humane groups propose adding a bitter, taste-aversive agent such as denatonium benzoate (Bitrex®) to ethylene glycol-containing automobile antifreeze, *and federal legislation has been proposed to this effect. *
> 
> *Ethylene Glycol vs Propylene glycol for automotive antifreeze*
> 
> More antifreeze is needed with propylene glycol to achieve the same freeze point.
> 
> Ethylene glycol has superior heat transfer efficiency due to lower viscosity - but more fluid must be circulated to transfer the same amount of energy since Propylene glycol has higher specific heat. This would mean a larger radiator so manufacturers would not like this."
> 
> My SWAG is that most ethylene glycol poisonings are not caused by a leaking tire. The concentration is very weak in a filled tire. It is not a 50-50 solution. Most animals might be exposed by a leaking or overheated radiator on a driveway. Most kids do not go around licking fluid leaking from a tire.
> 
> I always properly dispose of my old antifreeze. In the old days, I would just drain it on my driveway and washed it away with a hose.
> 
> George of Buford
> 
> PS Not just my opinion. I pasted this information from a number of sources.


Dude, you are bonkers. LOL 

Since the early 1970s, there were public warnings for folks to keep EG coolant out of the reach of children. I know of two kids in my lifetime who had gotten in the garage and drank about 2 cup fulls of this stuff. One today has neurological disorders and another has very bad eye sight. These two happenings were published in our local papers and on the local radio. In fact, it made the Detroit News paper on the front page back in those days. 

OK, so your tire starts to leak due to a puncture. you park the tractor. It puddles up. You think no big deal, it will degrade in a few days into the soil. You head into the house. That afternoon, your free ranging chickens all start to drink up this EG mess. The next thing you know, your wife is kicking your butt for killing off her flock of hens. Same think goes for your dog. Dogs will drink EG coolant like coo-aid. My sister is a vet. During the summer, it's common to put down an animal after lapping up EG coolant from a container or a puddle of the stuff. There is no known counter antidote for it. Caught soon, diluting it with drinking water per the poison control hotline and then ER to get the stomach pumped. 

From your first line ...
Ethylene glycol is a colorless, odorless, *sweet-tasting chemical*. It is poisonous if swallowed. 

And that bit about ... taste-aversive agent ... that is proposed and voluntary by the manufacture. It is not Federal regulation. One will not find it in 49 CFR. 

So much for the hens and mans best friend should they find a puddle that can take days or weeks to dissipate to the soil. Glycols don't evaporate to readily in normal temps. It will when boiled over. 

With organic and certified organic farms, EG is not allowed. Likewise with certain other fluids in machinery. There are more inspections to maintain organic biological status vs. a commercial farm for equipment. 

I'm sticking to the PG in the tires. Not worried one bit about the thermal effectiveness as the OP intends to fill the tires, especially in Northern Texas.


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## Ultradog

bmaverick said:


> Dude, you are bonkers. LOL
> 
> Since the early 1970s, there were public warnings for folks to keep EG coolant out of the reach of children. I know of two kids in my lifetime who had gotten in the garage and drank about 2 cup fulls of this stuff. One today has neurological disorders and another has very bad eye sight. These two happenings were published in our local papers and on the local radio. In fact, it made the Detroit News paper on the front page back in those days.
> 
> OK, so your tire starts to leak due to a puncture. you park the tractor. It puddles up. You think no big deal, it will degrade in a few days into the soil. You head into the house. That afternoon, your free ranging chickens all start to drink up this EG mess. The next thing you know, your wife is kicking your butt for killing off her flock of hens. Same think goes for your dog. Dogs will drink EG coolant like coo-aid. My sister is a vet. During the summer, it's common to put down an animal after lapping up EG coolant from a container or a puddle of the stuff. There is no known counter antidote for it. Caught soon, diluting it with drinking water per the poison control hotline and then ER to get the stomach pumped.
> 
> From your first line ...
> Ethylene glycol is a colorless, odorless, *sweet-tasting chemical*. It is poisonous if swallowed.
> 
> And that bit about ... taste-aversive agent ... that is proposed and voluntary by the manufacture. It is not Federal regulation. One will not find it in 49 CFR.
> 
> So much for the hens and mans best friend should they find a puddle that can take days or weeks to dissipate to the soil. Glycols don't evaporate to readily in normal temps. It will when boiled over.
> 
> With organic and certified organic farms, EG is not allowed. Likewise with certain other fluids in machinery. There are more inspections to maintain organic biological status vs. a commercial farm for equipment.
> 
> I'm sticking to the PG in the tires. Not worried one bit about the thermal effectiveness as the OP intends to fill the tires, especially in Northern Texas.


I hang out on a couple of tractor forums. On another one there has been been quite a lot of discussion about using ethylene glycol for ballast in tires. When the topic came up a couple of guys would always bring up the idea of pets and livestock drinking the stuff.
One of the regulars there is a retired veterinarian. He lived in a rural community and cared for every kind of pet and livestock. He has said many times that in all his years of working he never had a case of EG poisoning.
Ever! 
He maintains that animals Will Not drink the stuff any more than they would motor oil. He maintains that people who claim they will drink it are don't know what they are talking about and are just repeating old wive's tales. 
I believe the guy.
In all my years of messing with old trucks and tractors my dogs have had thousands of opportunities to drink the stuff.
They never have. I've never even seen one sniff the stuff as interesting. Nor has anyone else there and it is at least 5 times bigger forum site than this one is. 
I think automotive antifreeze is safe to use around animals.


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## JGPenfield

Dogs don’t drink it, but cats will. I have some old antifreeze from leaking car radiator problems that has been fixed. I will mix 2 gallons of that nasty EG to 38 gallons of water. At 5% I should be protected from a hard freeze in Texas and any leaks at that concentration should be safe. I think it is safer to get rid of that fully concentrated EG in the containers and use it for the tires then buying more PG. I replaced the other tire and I am waiting for a pump to get the antifreeze in the tires. My owners manual says to add 41 gallons of calcium chloride solution to each tire and that would give me around 1000 pounds of ballast at a 90% fill rate. I do have inner tubes, but I don’t need that much weight and that much freeze protection, so that is why I am using dilute antifreeze. 


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## bmaverick

Ultradog said:


> One of the regulars there is a retired veterinarian. He lived in a rural community and cared for every kind of pet and livestock. He has said many times that in all his years of working he never had a case of EG poisoning.
> Ever!
> He maintains that animals Will Not drink the stuff any more than they would motor oil. He maintains that people who claim they will drink it are don't know what they are talking about and are just repeating old wive's tales.
> I believe the guy.


Well, you can believe your guy all you want. No problem there. My vet is related and she's told me the events that totally contradict your guy's feedback. JGPenfield even confirmed that cats would lap the stuff up too. And personally, I do know that chickens will go after spilled coolant to drink up in a heart beat. 

Maybe you had smarter dogs than the average breeds. Who knows. Doesn't sound like you ever had livestock as you make reference to a vet. 

She pointed me to share this link with you. It's the Merck Manual, the go to for nearly all veterinarians. https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxi...toxicity/overview-of-ethylene-glycol-toxicity She also stated that your vet guy is either lying or has never been called out to any farm or on a 24/7 vet emergency responder event dealing with an EG poisoning with any animal. Anyone on her staff or herself would like to talk with you personally. They can be reached here: https://nives24h.com/pet-health/antifreeze-toxicity.php Their number is in the upper right. This way, I'm out of the loop and you can talk directly with real experts who see this stuff more often than the general public. 

Hey, I'm on nearly all the other forums too.  Just don't have the time to keep pounding the subject as I work a full time job. If I was retired, maybe I could post very long rebuttals. LOL


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## RC Wells

Here are some authoritive articles on the subject:
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/toxi...toxicity/overview-of-ethylene-glycol-toxicity

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/ethylene-glycol-poisoning-in-dogs

These above publications are in agreement with the Veterinary Doctors with which I deal. I no longer allow the ethylene glycol antifreezes on the farms. We live in a litigious society with far too many attorneys waiting to leap on the nearest set of deep pockets. Some dog licks it or some cat absorbs the stuff, and it is suddenly a million dollar family member seeking damages. All the engine antifreeze I use anymore is propylene glycol based. Safe versus sorry!
I no longer even use calcium chloride mixed with water in my tires, but that is because it is corrosive on the wheels of tubeless tires, and I have not had tractor tires with tubes for years.

It is also now common for agricultural property around shops and tractor sheds to have the soil tested if one intends to sell. A person wants zero value property, a positive test for old antifreeze residue is a good way to get there!


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## Hoodoo Valley

Did anyone mention beet juice? I know that Beet juice is non toxic as a tire additive.


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## pogobill

Hoodoo Valley said:


> Did anyone mention beet juice? I know that Beet juice is non toxic as a tire additive.


I was going to try Beet juice, but after eating my 400th jar of beets, I gave it up and opted for wheel weights!


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## George of Buford

I found this.

"Looks like every manufacturer uses the bitter additive now, so there are no states that have unflavored antifreeze. Before that there were only a handful of states that mandated the additive

California has required the addition of a bittering agent to antifreeze since 2002 and Oregon since 1991. Since 2005, Arizona, Georgia, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, Tennessee, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and Wisconsin have passed legislation requiring the addition of a bittering agent to antifreeze.

In 2006 and 2007, Illinois and Pennsylvania adopted resolutions in support of the passage of the federal antifreeze bittering additive legislation."

I live in Georgia so we should have BITTER ANTIFREEZE? I do not believe everything I read, but this may be true. No, I am not going to taste it to find out.

I store my tractors in a garage with concrete floors and locked doors. If there were any leakage, I would notice it immediately. I have never had a tire puncture that leaked fluid in 20 years. I have had water pump leakage through the weep hole which has nothing to do with FIT.

My HOA covenants do not allow any livestock on my property. So chickens are not an issue.

We have had two dogs that did not die because of EG poisoning. Old age killed them both.

I do not have an organic garden.

My shop is not commercial like a farm shop. I grew up on a farm and understand the environmental issues of a farm shop. The owner of first JD dealership was a lawyer. He taught me many legal issues for a dealer. I.E. Anyone modifying, or telling a customer how to bypass any safety devices, would be immediately FIRED. We installed EG in tires all the time. He was not worried about possible ligation.

No, I am not bonkers bmaverick. I am realistic. I have my opinion and you have your's. That was a very rude comment.

I see no reason to switch to propylene glycol. If you have a different opinion, that is your right. In return, please respect my opinion.

George of Buford


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## pogobill

Are we thinking about getting back on topic here, or are we going to continue slinging mud!

Some good information here from both camps, no need to get nasty. Let folks figure out what is best for them and get back on track.
Thanks


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## George of Buford

I thought about RimGuard (Beet Juice), but there are no local dealers. I would have to go about 150 miles to the nearest dealer. I live near Atlanta, GA. and was surprised there were no closer dealers. I wanted to get a 55 gallon drum, but was told it had to be installed by the dealer. Well, apparently it also has to be uninstalled by a dealer, because it is a very thick sticky liquid. If you think a tire shop hates SLIME, wait until you tell them the tire has beet juice in it.

RimGuard is heavier than water, but will cost me between $4-5 per gallon installed. The drive to the dealer makes this not an option.

George of Buford


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## bmaverick

George of Buford said:


> No, I am not bonkers bmaverick. I am realistic. I have my opinion and you have your's. That was a very rude comment.


Was not to be rude. It was used in the original British context of the word. You had given quoted information without links to the references. Thus, it was bonkers. Meaning, bunk, hear-say from you. It was not to be taken in the slang use that most people today refer the term bonkers with. Thus, you had truly stated a fact, your info was option. I presented my information with links and facts. 

Thus, we can agree to disagree as you had drawn the conclusion. That's fine by me. 

For the record. Any property we lease or rent for livestock or crop farming, we soil sample 5 places per acre, each sampling 500ft from each other minimum to keep within the organic regulations. There is such a high demand for real organics that there isn't enough 'clean' land nor farms with 'clean' land available. North America is in a bunch of hurt over this. America has poisoned and toxified the soil for countless of decades.


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