# 3cyl diesel engine troubleshooting???



## fortisi876

Hello all!

Im having some cold start troubles with my tractor, is there a website available that gives some troubleshooting tips?

Im thinking it may need new injectors and/or glow plugs but I didnt want to spend the money without researching it......just in case that is not the problem.

TIA!


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## JDFANATIC

fortis, 

Are you using the glow plug when you try to start the 655? If I remember right, there is a position before start on the ignition switch where the glow plug comes on (a light will also light on your dash) and you should wait until it goes off before starting the tractor.


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## Archdean

As a 20 year old power plant,

I would make sure that you have CLEAN fresh fuel with some additive!

A GOOD battery (proper size)!!

Good circuit wiring to your glow plugs and do they get hot?

If it will start without hesitation with a shot of either then it most likely is a problem with your glow plugs!

How many total hours does this engine have on it? If you know!


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## Live Oak

If the glow plugs are all functioning properly, the next option I would suggest would be to install the block heater kit part # AR87167 $55.00. You will also need to order the block heater adaptor kit part # AM882530 $46.50. 

The kit is very easy to install. The toughest part is breaking loose the threaded engine block plug. They are in REAL tight. I had to use a breaker bar and a 5 ft. cheater pipe to get mine loose. Once it is loose you can install the adaptor kit and block heater kit. If you plug in your tractor about and hour or two prior to each use; it should start right up as well as warm up a LOT faster. 

It should start up without the use of a block heater unless the temps are very cold. If the glow plugs are functioning properly and it is still a hard starter, it could be that the cylinder compression is not up to par after all these years and it is a bit cold natured. The block heater would be your best bet to get around this problem. DO NOT use ether. It will end up making the problem worse in the long run.


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## fortisi876

> _Originally posted by JDFANATIC _
> *Are you using the glow plug when you try to start the 655?*


 - YES



> _Originally posted by Archdean _
> *I would make sure that you have CLEAN fresh fuel with some additive!
> 
> A GOOD battery (proper size)!!
> 
> Good circuit wiring to your glow plugs and do they get hot?
> 
> If it will start without hesitation with a shot of either then it most likely is a problem with your glow plugs!
> 
> How many total hours does this engine have on it? If you know! *


- And herein may be where the problem lies. The person I purchased it from told me that the tractor sat for almost a yr so he siphoned out the bad fuel and replaced it with clean fuel. He also stated that he changed the all the filters (ie. air, oil, fuel & hydro). Now the question is did he change the fuel after trying to start it with the bad fuel? I dont know. He did warn me that it may have a dirty injector(s).

- I NEED to dbl check the battery size.
- Im not sure about the glow plugs condition or the wiring....is there a simple test I can perform to check for this?
- If I were dealing with a gas motor I would had already shot it with ether to see if Im dealing with a fuel problem or an electrical one. But I have read during my research a few weeks ago that ether was not recommended on diesel motors so I hesitated.
- As for the hours, the hr meter does work and it currently has approximately 554 hrs. I bought it with 548 hrs.



> _Originally posted by Chief _
> *If the glow plugs are all functioning properly, the next option I would suggest would be to install the block heater kit part # AR87167 $55.00. You will also need to order the block heater adaptor kit part # AM882530 $46.50.
> 
> The kit is very easy to install. The toughest part is breaking loose the threaded engine block plug. They are in REAL tight. I had to use a breaker bar and a 5 ft. cheater pipe to get mine loose. Once it is loose you can install the adaptor kit and block heater kit. If you plug in your tractor about and hour or two prior to each use; it should start right up as well as warm up a LOT faster.
> 
> It should start up without the use of a block heater unless the temps are very cold. If the glow plugs are functioning properly and it is still a hard starter, it could be that the cylinder compression is not up to par after all these years and it is a bit cold natured. The block heater would be your best bet to get around this problem. DO NOT use ether. It will end up making the problem worse in the long run. *


- Thats just it Im not sure if the glow plugs are functioning properly.....any help on a how-to for testing this would be appreciated!
- Thnx for the heads up on the block heater that is something I will definitely consider if it'll make life easier for me on these cold starts. HOWEVER, its only been around 50 degrees minimum if not warmer so Im not sure if thats really an issue?

So, at this point, Im hoping to:
1- learn how to check the glow plugs for proper function?
2- learn how to check the injectors for proper flow, if that can be done?

Any other opinions/tips gentlemen? 
Maybe check the carb?

If you would just give me a run down on what you would do BEFORE spending the $$$ on new injectors and glow plugs.

I thank all of you for jumping right on this inquiry I REALLY do appreciate it! 
Its forums like these that make the internet such a useful tool these days!!!

If any of you ever need info on electrical wiring dont hesitate to PM/email me!


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## JDFANATIC

fortisi,

Chief raises a good point (although you may have other things going on too), but I remember when I bought my 755, and the dealer told me he wouldn't sell one here in N.E. without a block heater. After thinking about it, I realize I never did try to start the 755 without warming things up with the heater in advance.


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## fortisi876

JDF even in this type of weather? (I see you're in Ct our weather is pretty much similiar)


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## Live Oak

fortis,

In order to troubleshoot the glow plugs, you will need to obtain a Deere shop manual. The problem could be a number of causes such as a relay, fuse or circuit breaker, shorted wire, or a couple of bad glow plugs. You will need a volt meter to test the reistance on the the glow plugs and check wire continuity. I an not real familiar with the 655 so I would need the manual as well.


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## Archdean

Turn your switch to energize your glow plugs for 15 t0 20 seconds (this test only) unass the seat and feel them if they feel hot THEY WORK!!

Ether on occasion WILL NOT CAUSE ANY MORE HARM then you already have,,, yes prolonged use will defeat initial lubrication that is inherent in diesel fuel for initial start!! THATS ALL!!

50 degrees,, it should purr to a start with no more then 20 seconds of glow plug preheat!!

Diesels do not have a carburetor, instead the injector pump atomizes fuel by pressurizing the fuel up wards of 20,000 psi! by squirting through the injectors!! Buy and use a good additive to clean and keep them clean!!


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## Live Oak

> _Originally posted by Archdean _
> *Ether on occasion WILL NOT CAUSE ANY MORE HARM then you already have,,, yes prolonged use will defeat initial lubrication that is inherent in diesel fuel for initial start!! THATS ALL!!
> 
> Diesels do not have a carburetor, instead the injector pump atomizes fuel by pressurizing the fuel up wards of 20,000 psi! by squirting through the injectors!! Buy and use a good additive to clean and keep them clean!! *


1. Horse feathers! Using ether to start assist a diesel that is not designed for this type of start assist CAN and WILL cause damage to the pistons and rings if used repeatedly. It does NOT take long to turn an engine into an ether baby especially if the ether is sprayed in while the engine is not cranking. 

2. More horse feathers! These Yanmar engines don't have anywhere near that kind of pressure in the fuel injector lines or injectors. 20,000 psi is the pressures that common rail diesel engine fuel systems operate at. The pressure test of the fuel injectors on my 4410 calls for 2843 psi +145/-0 determine opening pressure, leakage, chatter and spray pattern of the fuel injection nozzle. I suspect the pressures in the 655's Yanmar are similar. 

3. I think Fortis understands that diesels don't have carburetors.


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## Archdean

First! 
No where did I say to use ether Repeatedly!! In fact I agreed!!!

Second! Injector pumps produce pressures up to and above 20,000 PSI! As against gasoline fuel pumps that opperate at approx 8 PSI

Third! The poster asked about "Any other opinions/tips gentlemen? 
Maybe check the carb?"

Fourth! FYI, 
Pump Features:

Simple, compact, cost efficient design 
Pressure capability to 2000+ bar (29,000 PSI) 
Geometric displacement up to: 
1,000 mm3 for 2 piston 
2,000 mm3 for 4 piston 
Maximum speed of 4500 PRPM 
Inlet fuel temperature range of 40°C to 100°C 
Single fluid pump (diesel) with RME compatibility 
Inlet metered 
Easily adaptable to a wide range of engine configurations 

Fifth! Smooth thy feathers, Horse or otherwise!!


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## mark777

The 655 Yanmar engine (16 HP, 3 Cyl) produces 22.5 to 1 compression and the injector pump pressure at the injector nozzle is 2275 psi. Using a 3T75U engine for comparison, witch is not identical but very, very close.

Although there are two schools of thought regarding ether as a starting aid, every owners, parts and IT shop manual I have states NEVER use starting fluid. 

Early Yanmar engines with thermal-start and later models with glow plugs utilize an oversized (comparatively) intake manifold to combine the necessary air, cylinder compression and fuel. When the air is replaced with ether...the damage is devastating. Can you get away with it once in a while? Probably, but when I pull a head and see galled pistons, liner walls, bent rods and cylinder heads with the identical texture of a golf ball, I know immediately to shop for a used engine vs rebuild due to the effects of ether.

I realize that ether is used in a wide variety of engines including diesel...but the Yanmar (and most all Japanese) engines will explode if the spray duration of starting fluid is miscalculated by a single second.


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## JDFANATIC

> _Originally posted by fortisi876 _
> *JDF even in this type of weather? (I see you're in Ct our weather is pretty much similiar) *


fortisi,

I guess I was thinking of our last couple of mornings that were around the freezing mark. At 50F, you shouldn't need to heat the block. At 32F and below, your diesel will love you a whole lot more.


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## fortisi876

Thnx guys!

Holy crap are some of you passionate on this topic!!! 
I didnt mean to start a fight amongst any of you! LOL! 

Anyhow, I found a lil article online about checking the glow plugs with a test light so Im gonna go try that in a lil while. However, that really isnt a sure bet cuz I also read even tho they may still light up the test light they can still be on the brinks of failure so there is another more involved method for testing that Ill have to keep in mind if they all light up.

Like anything else these days, they dont look easy to get to so I have some work ahead of me taking other parts off just to get to them.

Ive also read that if Im 'sucking air on suction line' that Id have a hard time starting. Altho Im not sure if they're speaking of the rubber lines or not Im now thinking about buying some new hoses and replacing them all to see if that improves anything.

And I may consider checking the hard lines from the pump to the injectors for any blockage and the injectors themselves too.

My local dealer doesnt really make home calls just yet otherwise Id consider dropping a boatload having them do it but I REALLY do like working on my own equipment so learning from you guys means a lot!

Thnx!


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## Archdean

No fight here!

You asked a good question and I tried to give you what you asked for!

I'm only responsible for my own actions and I harbor no animosities for those that think differently!

If it helped you with your problem, that's a good thing! All members are free to use and benifit from wherever they might find education!! OR NOT!!


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## fortisi876

Well, assuming ALL glow plugs function the same and the test I found is accurate, I have discovered I have 2 bad plugs. The whole test light thing didnt work out for me since I had to take the battery out amongst some other parts to get to the plugs. I used the continuity mode on my volt/ohm meter, the first two plugs had none but the last plug tested did have continuity indicating that its still good.

Ill keep you guys posted if this fixes my dilemna!


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## fortisi876

BINGO!

New glow plugs = no more cold start problem.

Thnx for the advice gentlemen!


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## Archdean

Your Welcome!!

Simple wasn't it?


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## JDFANATIC

> _Originally posted by fortisi876 _
> *BINGO!
> 
> New glow plugs = no more cold start problem.
> 
> Thnx for the advice gentlemen! *


fortisi,

Glad you figured it out. Hope that 655 gives you a lot of years of great service. Keep us posted as to your likes and dislikes.


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## fortisi876

Will do!

For my purposes (light duty landscaping for the most part) I think it'll do just find. I picked up almost $400 worth of parts today at my JD store......everything from typical tune up parts to some replacement pieces for my hitch and new isolators (engine mounts) to stop that excess motor vibration.

The only other 'issue' I need to look into is the hydraulics problem Im having with my bucket not holding its position when face down and trying to drag (level) some dirt while going backwards.


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## Ernie

> _Originally posted by fortisi876 _
> *Will do!
> 
> 
> The only other 'issue' I need to look into is the hydraulics problem Im having with my bucket not holding its position when face down and trying to drag (level) some dirt while going backwards. *


forisi, there are only a few things that could cause your hyd problem. I would personally check the control valve first to make sure that it comes back to a neutral position. If it does make sure that it is not bay passing thru the valve. If all is well with the valve then your problem lies with in the cylinders for the bucket. This will require a little time and some plugs to block the hyd lines of one side then the othe. You will see a drift in the bad cylinder. Then it comes down to rebuilding the weak cylinder and be advised that you may want to rebuild both at this time. What is the actual hrs on this machine?


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## Live Oak

Hi Ernie! Long time no see! Great to see you posting again! I also see that you are a fellow Tennesseean now. Welcome on both counts. :cheers:


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## fortisi876

> _Originally posted by Ernie _
> *forisi, there are only a few things that could cause your hyd problem. I would personally check the control valve first to make sure that it comes back to a neutral position. If it does make sure that it is not bay passing thru the valve. If all is well with the valve then your problem lies with in the cylinders for the bucket. This will require a little time and some plugs to block the hyd lines of one side then the othe. You will see a drift in the bad cylinder. Then it comes down to rebuilding the weak cylinder and be advised that you may want to rebuild both at this time. What is the actual hrs on this machine? *


 Thnx for posting Ernie!

What exactly am I looking for with the control valve? 
I suppose checking to see if it doesnt come back to neutral is simple enough but are there any other things to look for?

Unless one of the two prior owners unplugged the meter this tractor has approx. 550 hrs.


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## fortisi876

While I have your attention  .........does any of you have an alternative source for new hydro cylinders???

Im just in research phase right now but if it turns out that my cylinder is bad Im not paying JD $450/cylinder to replace them.


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## Archdean

It is a common thing to rebuild yourself or have a hyd shop do it for you!
Note unless the rod is bent all your doing is replaceing seals!!


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## fortisi876

Arch: Have you ever rebuilt one?
Any special tools needed? 
About how long does it take to build one?


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## Live Oak

I have done several rebuilds of various sized cylinders when I worked at a John Deere dealership. The rebuild part is not that difficult. The biggest problem you will run up against is the requirement for special spanner wrenches and larger than usual sockets and wrenches to get the nut off of the piston rod. The rebuild kit is composed of o-rings, seals and plastic like material for piston rings. You will have to inpsect the cylinder barrel and piston rod for pitting, dings, and flaking of the chrome plating for the most part as well as any deformation or bends in the piston rod. Replace all of the o-rings and seals and then reassemble. 

Most customers found it best to remove the troublesome cylinder and bring it into the dealer shop and have us rebuild it for them since we had the special tools. Same thing goes for SCV valves.


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## Archdean

Yes Of course!!

A large vise , some rags for gripping the cylinder in the jaws W/O marring it! And a proper spanner wrench to remove the ram holding collar insert!!

30 minutes start to finish! Includes a one beer break!

PS, Dean works good for me!


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## fortisi876

Another question fella's!  

Since its gotten colder out Ive noticed when I start the tractor it seems to go into a choke mode. I say that cuz it doesnt matter where the throttle stick is set at cuz it doesnt change the rpm until its warmed up a lil.....about a minute or so. It then revs up a lil and works as it should.

My only complaint is it seems to run REAL rough during this time, any suggestions?

Thnx and HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!


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## Archdean

Your engine ignites fuel using only compression (about 20:1), no plugs, no choke no carburetor, recommend that you add some additive to your diesel fuel (helps keep it thin and volatile in cold weather!!

Remember you are injecting cold fuel into a cold chamber!! Preheat helps ignite the fuel when you first try to start a cold diesel engine!!


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## fortisi876

Thnx Arch for the quick reply! I had a feeling Id get one by the time I was done wth dinner! 

Anyway, I just purchased and added a diesel additive to my tractor so hopefully that'll cure the symptom. I just thought perhaps there was another mechanism that controls/regulates fuel delivery when it first starts that's all.

Thnx!


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## fortisi876

Well, Ive added the fuel additive and the motor still runs REAL rough on start up. 

The best way I could describe it is that the motor surges for about a minute or two. 
Moving the throttle stick does nothing at all, however, once it stops surging (engine warmed up) you can clearly hear when it begins to idle normally and then any throttle inputs are normal.

Any thoughts?


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## Archdean

> _Originally posted by fortisi876 _
> *Well, Ive added the fuel additive and the motor still runs REAL rough on start up.
> 
> The best way I could describe it is that the motor surges for about a minute or two.
> Moving the throttle stick does nothing at all, however, once it stops surging (engine warmed up) you can clearly hear when it begins to idle normally and then any throttle inputs are normal.
> 
> Any thoughts? *


A couple, 
Did you mix the additive or just pour it in the tank?
Since it runs normally when warm--Check your preheat system!

Dean

:cowboy:


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## fortisi876

premixed it....preheat=glow plugs? If yes, they're all new.


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## Archdean

First, you can expect all to run a bit rough until warm!

Second, You may have one or more cylinders not operating properly/ can't tell by your description could be a restriction in one or more of your fuel injectors (unlikely if runs normaly when warm)! 

Have you checked the compression to see if they are all about the same? If one or more is vastly low you have at least found a good reason to suspect it ( should be done cold in your case)!!

Dean

:cowboy:


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## Live Oak

When was the last time you changed the fuel filter? Could be some residual water trapped in the fuel filter bowl and filter that is freezing in the cold weather and restricting the flow of fuel. Replacing the fuel filter with a new clean filter should solve this problem if that is the case.


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## fortisi876

Thnx for the tips, Im gonna have to look into having a compression test done, Im handy but Ive never done that before.  

As for the fuel filter, the former seller told me he changed it just before I bought it so Id say its less than a yr old. How often do you guys recommend changing them?

TIA!


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## Archdean

Depends on if you always use clean diesel and fill it (tractor) in a clean environment vs dumping in any old crap with dirt and etc on the jug!

About every 200 hrs or so, there cheap so it can't hurt!

Chief suggests that you change it and so do I, however it is not being warmed by the engine and should make no difference since it runs normally after a minute or two! Your old girl might just be cold blooded IE, takes a bit for her internals to get the idea it's time to wake up!! I had a GF like that once!! 

She had her compression tested and was fine after that!! 

:cowboy:


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## fortisi876

Im gonna try changing the fuel filter......it's only 20* out today and I cant get it started. I just read somewhere that sometimes the relay that controls the glow plugs sticks causing the glow plugs to burn out prematurely.........have any of you heard of this or had this happen to you?

I'll be somewhat annoyed if that is what happened since I just bought them (all 3 plugs) new this past summer but hey if that's the cause of my hard starting and I get it resolved with a new relay then so be it!


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## Live Oak

> _Originally posted by fortisi876 _
> *Im gonna try changing the fuel filter......it's only 20* out today and I cant get it started. I just read somewhere that sometimes the relay that controls the glow plugs sticks causing the glow plugs to burn out prematurely.........have any of you heard of this or had this happen to you?
> 
> I'll be somewhat annoyed if that is what happened since I just bought them (all 3 plugs) new this past summer but hey if that's the cause of my hard starting and I get it resolved with a new relay then so be it!  *


If you suspect a glow plug problem, you should verify each glow plug with a volt meter for continuity and proper resistance. Also verify that each glow plug is receiving proper voltage. It is best to start at the glow plugs and work your way back to isolate any problems. Could be something as simple as a bad relay or a fuse.


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## fortisi876

Thnx Chief!

By chance, do you know of a site with troubleshooting tips/how-to's?

The only way I know of to check glow plugs is them taken out, is there another method?

Also I think checking for proper voltage at the plug is a good idea but Im not sure the best way to go about doing that so if you know of a decent site please do pass it along!

Thnx again!


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## Archdean

This might help you!

Here


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## fortisi876

FWIW- altho I didnt troubleshoot my glow plugs or GP circuit....I just wanted to let yall know that it started right up for me once I threw a tarp up over her with a propane heater underneath for an hr or two. So I decided to order a block heater to see if that helps on these cold starts.


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## Live Oak

A block heater plugged in a few hours prior to use will usually be good enough to help aid starting the engine under most circumstances but in severe cold, you will likely need the glow plugs to function properly to get a good start even with the block heater. When you install the block heater, be sure to position the heating element so it does not touch or come close to touching the engine block internally. If the heating element touches inside the block, this can drastically shorten the life of the block heater element. They ain't cheap either.


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## fortisi876

Hello All!

It's been awhile since I visited here and decided to bump this thread up with another question but first a little update:
- I believe a block heater would absolutely solve my cold start issues but these past few yrs, I've managed to clear out some space in my heated garage and would just back her in on the coldest days/weeks.
- Regarding the rough idle, to this very day, I still experience it. One thing I did notice, is if I turn her off while it's idling at its roughest point and I restart it, sometimes (50/50) it begins to idle normally.

With that said, I just recently learned about a product called SeaFoam, have any of you used it with good results?

I have the strangest feeling that my idle problem is related to partially blocked injectors maybe?

Anyhow, I bought a bottle and mixed it up with my fuel (supposedly cleans injectors) and in the crankcase.....from what I read it supposed to clean varnish and carbon deposits. I ran it for about 20 min afterwards but haven't really had any reason to use her often so I don't know if anythings improved.


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