# New guy with starting problem!



## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

I belong to lots of motorcycle, boat & vehicle forums - Love them for learning and getting info - so thought I'd try one for the tractor...

A few years ago I picked up a used Craftsman DYS 4500.
It's the gold 80th anniversary model (917.28738) with 22hp & 42" deck. 
It has the automatic (hydrostatic?) tranny with the hand lever for motion control on right rear fender.
I've been battling off & on starting probs with it since I've had it.
I thought I had it narrowed down to this: 
When I put it in Neutral it still creeps forward until I jiggle the lever a little and then it finds neutral.
It appeared that when restarting, it sensed that it was in gear and would just click, If I jiggled the handle while cranking it seemed to find neutral and crank over.
Big prob was if it didn't fine neutral quick it would kill battery and need a jump.

Went to use it yesterday and even my little tricks above didn't work.
I've got 12+ volts at battery & at one side of solenoid. 
But I only have 4-8 volts at other side of solenoid when starting. Bad solenoid? (I already replaced the soleniod once a couple years ago.) I ordered another solenoid yesterday, so hoping that'll get it cranking again, but still have the neutral problem!
Is there a neutral saftey switch that could be bad? Is there an adjustment to the motion lever that should be done?
Any ideas/comments/suggestions that I could try to look at would be much appreciated!


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## stickerpicker (Sep 16, 2003)

NAUTIQUE said:


> I belong to lots of motorcycle, boat & vehicle forums - Love them for learning and getting info - so thought I'd try one for the tractor...
> 
> A few years ago I picked up a used Craftsman DYS 4500.
> It's the gold 80th anniversary model (917.28738) with 22hp & 42" deck.
> ...


I might be able to help you with the cranking problem when it tries to crank but only has 4-8 volts at the solenoid. The battery probably has that same voltage across the posts so remove the battery and have it load tested.

Possibly someone else can help with the neutral problem.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Welcome to the forum!
Looking at the diagrams(Sears parts direct.com),it has a safety interlock switch under the left frame area(sitting on tractor).It is possible the switch needs adjustment.Moving the switch closer to the tab,should help.
As for the creeping in gear,the lever connects to a lever on the transaxle,and there should be some adjustment there.
Raise the rear on some stands,and start the engine.You may have to place a weight on the seat to keep it running,or jumper the seat switch.Do not set the brake.
If it turns the tires, look under the right side of the tractor,and wiggle the gear lever,to see which way it moves,to make it stop creeping.
Loosen the bolt/screw that attaches the gear lever to the trans axle,and move the trans lever,until it stops creeping.Tighten the bolt,and check it,again, for creeping.
That should take care of the problems.
Hope this helps.


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

jhngardner367 said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> Looking at the diagrams(Sears parts direct.com),it has a safety interlock switch under the left frame area(sitting on tractor).It is possible the switch needs adjustment.Moving the switch closer to the tab,should help.
> As for the creeping in gear,the lever connects to a lever on the transaxle,and there should be some adjustment there.
> Raise the rear on some stands,and start the engine.You may have to place a weight on the seat to keep it running,or jumper the seat switch.Do not set the brake.
> ...


Thanks jhngardner367!
Will definetly get it jacked up this week and give that adjustment a try once I can get it started again.
So do you think the saftey interlock switch is tied into it not being in neutral and preventing it from starting? Do you have a link to that diagram?

Stickerpicker,
I'll also doublecheck to see if the volts drop at the battery itself while cranking. If so - Bad battery?


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes,it would indicate a weak battery,or one with a dead cell. 
Try this link :
http://parts.sears.com/partsdirect/...aken=&prst=0&shdMod=917287380&exactMatch=true

It has all the parts diagrams for your model.


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## Bill Kapaun (May 8, 2007)

IF the solenoid CLICKS, safety switches are NOT an issue.

Your tractor has only a 3 AMP charging system.
Get the battery FULLY charged and LOAD TESTED.
A 2 year old tractor battery is suspect.

Your symptoms indicate a low/weak battery.


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

Bill Kapaun said:


> IF the solenoid CLICKS, safety switches are NOT an issue. Your tractor has only a 3 AMP charging system.
> Get the battery FULLY charged and LOAD TESTED.
> A 2 year old tractor battery is suspect.
> Your symptoms indicate a low/weak battery.


Threw in the new solenoid last night - no differeance.
Even with jumpers attached to tractor battery - it'll only crank about a 1/4 turn each time I turn the key.
Last season it seemed to do this and if I jiggled the motion lever it would then spin and start - I thought it was finding neutral - just coincidence?
(It seems to do about the same if I touch jumper to starter cable.)

Can't seem to find any saftey switch for neutral. 
I can find the electrical connections to the brake/clutch, seat, & reverse module - all seem to be working correctly.
Any chance that it's a starter problem?
Battery is old, guess I'll spring for new battery next and see what happens.


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## Bill Kapaun (May 8, 2007)

Well, we go from just clicking to it cranking a 1/4 turn.
That throws another factor into the equation---Valve Adjustment.
Briggs OHV engines require the valve lash to be properly set for the compression release to function.
.004-.006" both valves with the piston 1/4" ATDC.

You can buy a new battery or you can get your old one charged & load tested. Auto Zone and other places will load test for free.

You could also have a bad connection anywhere in the crank circuit, including grounds. Loose engine bolts for example, could provide a poor ground to the frame. People only want to consider the + side of the circuit. The - side is equally as important.
You have a volt meter. You can easily check for voltage drop over the different connections.

valve adjustment & voltage drop testing how to's can easily be found with a web search.


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## stickerpicker (Sep 16, 2003)

Keep throwing parts at it and you'll be out of money when it's time to solve the real problem. I hope you have deep pockets.


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## Bill Kapaun (May 8, 2007)

stickerpicker said:


> Keep throwing parts at it and you'll be out of money when it's time to solve the real problem. I hope you have deep pockets.


I have to agree!

You'll notice the reoccurring theme of getting the battery *LOAD TESTED*?
We ARE trying to save you money, but you have to be willing to participate.

Your 3 AMP charge system would take 10-12 hours (at full engine speed) to fully charge your battery *IF* totally discharged. It'll take less for a low but good battery. These aren't like your car where 15 minutes run time is enough to insure a good start on a discharged battery.
Possibly your battery IS bad, but you can get it tested for FREE! You just need to get it charged and tested *FIRST* to intelligently approach this.


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## badbam (May 24, 2014)

Adjust your valves. To loose to release compression.


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

Bill Kapaun said:


> I have to agree!
> 
> You'll notice the reoccurring theme of getting the battery *LOAD TESTED*?
> We ARE trying to save you money, but you have to be willing to participate.
> ...


Well Stickerpicker - only throwing enough parts at it to keep from having to spend the bigger $'s and time of having a repair guy come pick it up.

Bill K - Looks like the battery may have been the original Diehard (has an '07' sticker on it. I hadn't considered it was the problem since it was still charging. But I guess it didn't have the cranking amps anymore. (and still not clear why it wasn't working with the jumpers attached?)
Picked up a new Diehard and it started on first turn of the key. Seemed to work fine all weekend. :thumbsup:
So ya I threw a solenoid & a battery at it to keep from going to the shop.
(also realized that it will start in gear with the brake/clutch pushed in. So I guess thinking there had to be a neutral safety switch causing the problem was just a coincidence.)

Do you think there may still be a problem with the valve lash? Any other signs to look for indicating a problem or is what I had happening a sign?


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## stickerpicker (Sep 16, 2003)

stickerpicker said:


> I might be able to help you with the cranking problem when it tries to crank but only has 4-8 volts at the solenoid. The battery probably has that same voltage across the posts so remove the battery and have it load tested.
> 
> Possibly someone else can help with the neutral problem.


I read where I can save myself time and trouble by keeping a feces list of user names for future reference of those that don't appreciate, follow advise and have the courtesy of thanking someone that has the answer to their problem that would have saved them time, trouble and money.


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## Bill Kapaun (May 8, 2007)

Likely your battery wasn't working with the jumpers attached because it was so low that much of the current was going to the battery in an attempt to charge it.
These 3 AMP charging systems are very rudimentary with no voltage regulation.
It basically places a diode in line with a 28+ VAC output from the stator, blocking the negative part of the AC sine wave. A "leaky" diode can allow some ACV through which is bad for batteries.
7 years on your battery is quite remarkable.
Valve adjustment is considered a normal maintenance item, but often not evn mentioned in the Owners Manual.
IF the engine cranks over promptly, I probably wouldn't bother.
HOWEVER, the first time it starts to exhibit hard cranking, DO IT.
I belong to multiple forums and every Spring there's a multitude of posts similar to yours.
Batteries deteriorate over the Winter and what was able to start your tractor last Fall, just doesn't cut it anymore.
People don't understand CAPACITY. They think 12V is 12V. 8 penlight batteries will generate 12V, but not crank the engine.
Lack of valve adjustment on Briggs OHV engines has probably sold more batteries, starters & solenoids then any other reason. People replace all these parts and THEN come to the forums because their engine still doesn't crank well enough to start.


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

stickerpicker said:


> I read where I can save myself time and trouble by keeping a feces list of user names for future reference of those that don't appreciate, follow advise and have the courtesy of thanking someone that has the answer to their problem that would have saved them time, trouble and money.


Woa, that went in the wrong direction! 
Is this the type of forum where the oldtimers like to bitchslap the newbies?
No disrespect was intended!

Unfortunately it sucks being tied-up with a pretty hectic schedule and only having limited time to solve an aggravating problem. Especially when you're not skilled at it (That's why I come to forums to try to learn things before handing my money over to the repair guys).

I did remember that a couple posts mentioned that maybe the battery was still the problem. So since it was an old one, I figured grabbing a new one was a good investment anyways. 
So if you want to bitch at me for taking a shot with a good investment before calling a repair guy that's OK, I've got thick skin, - put me on your list!

Thanks to all for your input. (Especially the ones a little more patient with the new idiots!) 
Keeping my fingers crossed that solving the problem was as simple as a new battery! :cheers:


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

Bill Kapaun said:


> Likely your battery wasn't working with the jumpers attached because it was so low that much of the current was going to the battery in an attempt to charge it.
> These 3 AMP charging systems are very rudimentary with no voltage regulation.
> It basically places a diode in line with a 28+ VAC output from the stator, blocking the negative part of the AC sine wave. A "leaky" diode can allow some ACV through which is bad for batteries.
> 7 years on your battery is quite remarkable.
> ...


Bill - Thanks for a great explanation!


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## bolillo_loco (Oct 9, 2010)

NAUTIQUE said:


> Bill - Thanks for a great explanation!


That man always reminded me of my 7th/8th grade shop teacher... If he didn't know the answer straight away, he kept every TM (Technical Manual) known to man within arms reach. 

Cheers,
bolillo


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

Well all,
The new battery sure seemed to solve the original starting problem. Sits for about a week then starts right up each time!

Kind of strange new problem though...
Same thing last two times I used it - 
Starts right up and runs great for about an hour doing the front yard, then just as I get to the back yard it starts surging like it's running out of gas and finally stalls out. Try restarting and it cranks but won't start (like it's not getting fuel?). Let it sit for awhile and then it fires right up and runs fine to finish backyard (about another hour). Seems like there's fuel in the gas filter and all.
Any suggestions?
Maybe run for an hour. Have a couple beers. Run for another hour!


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## Bill Kapaun (May 8, 2007)

Loosen the gas cap for a few seconds and see if you're good for another hour/ Possible venting issue.
Also, when's the last time you replaced the fuel filter?
It may be on the ragged edge of being "clogged".

OR check for spark.
Check with a cold engine and then again when the problem occurs and compare the 2.


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## NAUTIQUE (May 19, 2014)

Bill Kapaun said:


> Loosen the gas cap for a few seconds and see if you're good for another hour/ Possible venting issue.
> Also, when's the last time you replaced the fuel filter?
> It may be on the ragged edge of being "clogged".
> 
> ...


Thanks Bill - will try that!
Venting issue may be right - I think the last time I removed cap and topped off gas - then it ran fine again. Any idea what would be causing that?
I'll also grab another fuel filter to be safe - guessing it's the orig. one.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey, stickerpicker,
You're kind of thin-skinned on your reply,aren't you?
Take it from me,it will only bite you in the A$$.I did the same a bit ago,but Skunkhome is a gentleman,and we are talking,a bit, now, even though I was a S***head,to him.
Blll and others are only trying to help a newbie,but no-one should keep a "feces list",....unless they're NEVER wrong.


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