# Oil type and filter questions



## FarmerDave

I was at Sears today to buy filters (oil & air) and oil. This is the first oil and filter change on my GT5000 that I bought last fall. I was shocked at the price for replacement filters so I decided to give NAPA a visit and they matched up to the Craftsman filters I brought with me that I removed from my tractor. Is this a good idea or not? I know price wise it's good but could it damage my tractor somehow not using the original parts? Also none of the oil at NAPA had the API-SF-SJ ratings that are specified in my owners manual. What does everyone else use?


----------



## guest2

Dave
I use castrol gtx 10w-30 in summer and castrol gtx 5w-30 in the winter. Can't see why napa wouldn't have any acceptable oil. From what I understand each improvement in an oil grade will go to the next letter. For example, my kohler 22hp GT bought in 2000 says to use API-SF/SG/SH. So SJ would also be correct as it's a newer improved version. If you saw something before SF, like SD, SE, ? I don't think it would have the same properties as what is required.

For filters I use the original kohler. This last change to 5w-30 for the winter I used a fram TG3614 although I think the pressure relief is higher. But it won't be on long or used much this time of year so it should be ok.

In the spring, I'll go back to the 10w-30 and a kohler filter.


----------



## Michael

There's nothing wrong with the NAPA filters, In fact IMHO the NAPA filters are probably better then the orginal Kohler filters. The NAPA filters are made by Wix and I have used them exclusively for the last 20 years and have never had a problem with them. The have a metal valve in the pressure relief valve instead of plastic like most companies use on their filters. Kohler filters in the past used to have the metal valve but they switch to another company for their filters and now have a plastic valve, probably would not be much of a problem on a lawn tractor engine but why take a chance. To me spending the dollars that you did for a new garden tractor why would youtake a chance on the filter get the NAPA and don't worry, you just did a upgrade from the el-cheapo filter to something better and saved a few dollars doing it better then orginal. 

I use the same oil as Sixchows on the oil and have never had a problem and do the same thing for winter to summer use but this year and just left it with 10W30 for this winter as I placed the tractor in storage for the winter since I have I a Kubota L185 with a FEL IF we get any snow where I live.


----------



## FarmerDave

sixchows,
Thanks for explaining the API rating to me, I was looking for those specific letters (SF-SJ) not knowing that SJ was what I needed. The girl that was waiting on me didn't know any more than me. 

Michael,
I have used NAPA filters on my vehicles for many years which is why I decided to match them to my Craftsman filters. A Craftsman oil filter is $9.99 and the NAPA version was $2.77. The Craftsman air filter was around $14.00 compared to $11.00 for the NAPA.

I would like to hear more opinions on the NAPA filters vs original Sears filters. Who else uses non Sears replacement filters?


----------



## Michael

I have a John Deere lawn tractor and Kubota CUT and I use the NAPAs in those and all my cars (3 cars a 74 Duster and 2 Plymouth Acclaims and my 2 Dodge Rams a diesel and V10) with that number of vehicles it gets mighty expensive in the oil changes and maintenance if I did not do all the maintenance myself so NAPA is the way to go.


----------



## guest2

The major difference in the oil filters is the bypass pressure rating. When you cross a small engine filter over to a car filter, the car filter has a higher bypass pressure. The kohler( made by someone else most likely) is rated around 8-10 psi and the car filters like the fram I used is 12-15. So if the filter got clogged somehow ( old and dirty or defective) it would take a little longer for the bypass valve to allow oil to flow through the engine. 

Might not be a big deal but you can get kohler filters for around $7-$8 and the others are $2-$5. I really have a hard time useing a $2 filter. Seems too cheap to be trustworthy.


----------



## Greg

I just bought Napa Gold filters for my Kohler 15.5hp, ($12), Generac 7.8 & 15 hp ($7) and Kawasaki 14hp ($7). They all crossed with my original numbers and they had them in stock. It was Sunday and a storm was on the way so I especially wanted the filters for the Generac generators. Got the others cause I need them for winter maintenance. Napa Gold filters are just as good, or better, IMO than "original mfg." filters. They might even be exactly the same...

I use nothing but Mobil 1 5w - 30 in all my small engines all year round. I was told by the Napa guy that their oil was made by Castrol.


----------



## jodyand

I have change the oil in my Cub 3 times already and i haven't used a Kaw filter yet. The first time it was a Fram truck filter and the other 2 were Wixs. The rating are the same as the Kaw filter i check that first.


----------



## guest2

Greg

If you go to most major brand websites and try to cross a competitor's filter you will get a part # and a footnote saying to be sure to check application. What they mean by this is that although the threads are the same size and the filter length and diameter is the same, the filtration and internals may not be. For example, some crossed over filters won't have an anti-drainback valve in the base filter. Move up to the premium corresponding filter and they will. Also the bypass relief valve pressures will be different. Chances are the autoparts guy is going by the assumption that if it's good enough for a toyota corolla, it must be overkill for your tractor. This might not always be true.


----------



## Greg

6er,

I took the actual numbers of the original filters into the Napa store. They crossed them in their computer to their filter. You can't find filters for generators, tractors, chippers, etc. at auto parts stores here. They don't carry them. They tell you up front. That's why people go to NAPA as they do. An auto parts store here will even tell you to go to Napa for small engine filters.

On the NAPA Gold box:

"Napa Gold filters meet or exceed OEM requirements. Vehicle and equipment warranties remain in effect when NAPA Gold filters are installed and used in accordance with engine manufacturer's recommendations".

Seems OK to me... Maybe they have other filters not as good.


----------



## guest2

Greg

Here's an example from napa's website. My Kohler filter # is 5205002. This crosses over to a Napa 1348. There are 7 pages of applications on the Napa site that this oil filter will fit. Most of the applications are cars such as chevy geo, chryslers, dodge, plymouth, toyota, ford, iveco, lexus,saab,saturn, suzuki, and yugo. Anybody telling you that these are specific for small engines and not automotive either doesn't want to be bothered with lawn/garden applications or just doesn't have the filter in the first place.

Check this link and click on 1348 then on applications 
http://www.nfhconnect.com/products/...=&PartNo9=&MakerCode9=&PartNo10=&MakerCode10=


----------



## jodyand

You can go to the Wix site and put this # in 51394 this is the oil filter for my 15HP Kaw. Then click on applications and see what all it fits. Sure it shows some Toyota's and Nissan's but the majority of what you will see is lots of John Deere's and Exmarks and Kaw Mules and lots of others Mowers and generators. More of those then cars. Here is a link to Wix's.

Wix Filters


----------



## Greg

My JD170 and Generac gensets use the NAPA 1394, same as Jody's above. Lots of Kawasaki engines.

My CV15S Kohler for my Craftsman 1500 uses a NAPA 1056. Few vehicles, but mostly all Kohlers in lots of tractors..Cub, JD etc.

I still go back to the NAPA guarantee and statement. You can't make an "iffy" product and make those promises.


----------



## Ingersoll444

Just as a side note, Make sure yu get the Napa Gold filters. The silver line is there low line, and unless you HAVE to I would not use it. BTW I use the Napa filter in my N, and my trucks and the Gravelys[same filter] get Motorcraft, or Mazda filters. [BTW I work at Mazda so I have them on the shelf, and they are made by Motorcraft for a few of the Ford powerd Mazdas] and in my wife Saturn I use an aftermarket AC filter. The OE saturn filter is REALLLLLL chessey!!!


----------



## MR. T

I discussed which filter to use with our local Cub dealer. He recommended sticking with what the factory installed.He said there was currently a mower in his shop that the engine was locked up.The owner had installed an automotive filter on it.He said the auto filter used plastic inside of it instead of metal,and that the air cooled engine produced a lot more heat and the plastic inside the filter melted. Stopping the oil from circulating,burning the engine up,and VOIDING his factory warranty. After talking to him I just pay the few extra bucks.
I use Mobil 1,15-50 in all of my outdoor machinery. It ceatainly reduced the oil consumption on my engines compared to Briggs 30 wt.


----------



## guest2

The point I was making with the link to the Napa site is that when you cross the filters back and forth each manufacturers filter will be a little different in pressure ratings.

Actually the Napa one seems like a close match.


----------



## Chipmaker

I think the dealer who blamed an engine lock up on the engine having a automotive type filter is feeding a line of bull. Yes a air cooled motor may operate to some extent a bit hotter, but not that hot. There was a website from a major oil company covering what temps various engines work at, and one thing that was interesting was that most all oil systems no matter if it was in a air or water cooled engine were pretty darn close temperature wise.........

Of course a dealer is gonna make all kinds of out of this world claims and statements in regards to oonly using a filter thats only sold by him or the company that makes the end product....as its got a huyge profit margin to them and they use smoke and mirrows to baffle customers....I have a Lube Industry mag here somewhere I will have to dig out in regards to filters and their construction and it covers all of the statements posted above........Lots are just old wives tales for the most part. Seems 9 out of 10 folks pay homage to that dude that has the webpage on Fram filters and all his little cutaway projects on various filters etc as being gosple.......Its just another website in cyber land that really has no credence or validity. What would you expect from a disgruntled user of Fram.......for whatever real reason it was. 

To me asking a dealer about these filters is like walking into a Firestone Tire store and asking if they have anything that compares with such and such model of Goodyears and why it would be better to but Firestone over the Goodyear brands........Sure not gonna stay in business long recomending another brand you do not carry, or carrying a brand that is not assocaited by the product line you carry........

I do know it would be a cold day in you know where before I plunk down what they want for a oil filter for my JD. I have been using Toyota filters on my JD's since mid 80's and never had a problem.........Toyota dealers regular price is 3 for about $10 or 11 bucks and when on sale you get an extra free.........JD filter for Kaw....each $11 to 13 each.....never on sale.

Same thing with JD or Cub Cadet or B & S packaged oils..........ifit meets the spec its no different and let the manufactuer prove different.....Last I knew none of these major manuf of L & G or ag equipment owned and ran a refinery.....

I am surprised you could not find API rated oil of SJ..as its the latest standard or at least was and is very very common. None of the oils used in the small or even large engines of these L & G and AG equipment is extra special or different contrary to what dealers would like to have you believe

Sorry about the rant, but dealers that lie their teeth off about crap like oils and filters etc just torque me off.......The big picture for these dealers and equipment makers is MAKE A $$ no matter how you have to go about doing it.


----------



## guest2

Jody and Greg

That's my point. If these filters are also for cars, an auto parts store will have them. 

If you went there for the toyota application, would they still send you to Napa?


----------



## Greg

6er,

My point is if a filter meets the size and performance specifications of the engine I have, and is reasonably priced, what difference does it make if also meets the specs of another engine. 

A filter is not really used "in" a specific model car, i.e. "Toyota Corolla". It's really used on a specific engine that happens to be installed in that make/model. The same engine might also be used in other models, and in some cases, other makes. My Isuzu Trooper had an engine made by GM.

"OEM" parts aren't always the very best for a specific application, IMO. Many are just the part that was bid at the lowest price, meeting mfgs specs, by the actual manufacturer. If Yokohama Tire wins the contract to supply tires for the 2005 Ford F150, does that mean you shouldn't use Goodyear, Firestone, Michelin or Perelli tires of the same size/spec on one?

Same for oil... gas...filters...belts...antifreeze...atf fluid...light bulbs????


----------



## aegt5000

Dave…

I also use the Castrol GTX 10W-30, but I use it summer and winter.
The tractor sits in a heated garage so I don’t change over to winter oil.
I only use Kohler filters in my GT5000. I don’t know if they’re the 
best or worst, but they are what Kohler recommends. For the 2 filter
changes I do a year, I can’t see fooling around trying to save $2.00.


----------



## Chipmaker

I sort of think we all have a misconception as to what the vlalve thingy inside the filter actualy is and what it does.It does not regualte pressure, it does not open up if a filter gets clogged, its there to allow a certain percentage of oil to bypass the filter all together and go directly into the engine, and a bypass valve can allow as much as 80% of the oil to bypass according to design.........A full flow filter does not have a bypass valve, and 100% of the oil passing into and through the filter gets filtered before it returns to the engine parts for lube......By pass style filters are or shuld say have been old technology and have not been used in very many automotive applications in years, until Ford just announcing it willintroduce a new style lube / filter system on certain vehicles...which will include byupass filtering.........So not having a bypass valve or what is commonly called a arelief valve in a filter certainly is not going to harm a thing, and in some cases if not most is most beneficial as it is filtering more oil than a filter of bypass design......The only other valve that is contained in filters are a anti drain back valve, which if it fails is still not going to cause any harm, for the most part as oil pressure on the small engines will readily fill a small capacity filter and it would not be any worse than installing a new filter on an oil change schedule......The anti drain back valves are mainly for filters such as the Mazda RX7 where its mounted upside down, or on filters mounted more than 90 deg from horizontal. Most small engines are at a 90 deg so your still going to have 50% or more of the filter filled if a anti drain back valve failed, and according to what I read, drain back valves are usually made of neoprene rubber or silicone, and failure is pretty common place, so you may think you have a anti drain back device but odds are it failed.

I got my info from Machinery Lube magazine, which is a magazine put out to the industry automotive, industrial, agriculture etc that covers all aspects of lube, filters and such...........its very good and informative and its basically the standard by what lube and grease is set to..........They provide the info the design engineers reference when they make or design things.....

Other than mimcron difference in filter media and if yu do a oil change when required, and use good quality oils it matters not if you use a Fram or MObil 1 or OEM filters........with or without a bypass valve, it matters not.


----------



## aegt5000

Chip…

I believe some “Full Flow” filters have built in By-Pass valves.
This is from Frams web site.

*” Relief (By-Pass) Valve. In a full flow system, all the oil passes through the filter to reach the engine. If the filter clogs, an alternative route to the engine must be provided for the oil, or the bearings and other internal parts may fail, due to oil starvation. A relief, or by-pass, valve is used to allow unfiltered oil to lubricate the engine. Unfiltered oil is far better than no oil at all. This relief (by-pass) valve is built into the engine block in some cars. Otherwise, the relief (by-pass) valve is a component of the oil filter itself. Under normal conditions, the valve remains closed. When there is sufficient contaminant in the oil filter to reach a preset level of pressure differential to oil flow (around 10-12 PSI in most passenger cars), pressure differential on the relief (by-pass) valve caused it to open. This condition can occur when the oil filter has become clogged or when the weather is cold and the oil is thick and flows slowly. ”*

Sounds like having a filter with a by-pass valve would provide better protection than
not having one, if the filter gets too dirty.


----------



## guest2

> _Originally posted by aegt5000 _
> *Chip…
> 
> I believe some “Full Flow” filters have built in By-Pass valves.
> This is from Frams web site.
> 
> ” Relief (By-Pass) Valve. In a full flow system, all the oil passes through the filter to reach the engine. If the filter clogs, an alternative route to the engine must be provided for the oil, or the bearings and other internal parts may fail, due to oil starvation. A relief, or by-pass, valve is used to allow unfiltered oil to lubricate the engine. Unfiltered oil is far better than no oil at all. This relief (by-pass) valve is built into the engine block in some cars. Otherwise, the relief (by-pass) valve is a component of the oil filter itself. Under normal conditions, the valve remains closed. When there is sufficient contaminant in the oil filter to reach a preset level of pressure differential to oil flow (around 10-12 PSI in most passenger cars), pressure differential on the relief (by-pass) valve caused it to open. This condition can occur when the oil filter has become clogged or when the weather is cold and the oil is thick and flows slowly. ”
> 
> Sounds like having a filter with a by-pass valve would provide better protection than
> not having one, if the filter gets too dirty. *


That's what I was saying. But just because these filters are given as cross references by each manufacturer doesn't mean they have the same rating. The wix/napa filters are the same as the kohler rating of 8-10psi. But some of the others, like the fram are a little higher at 10-12psi. Will the few seconds it takes to reach the higher pressure make a difference? Not sure I want to find out. But for the winter, the oil will stay clean as the tractor most likely won't even be used more than 10 times.


----------



## Greg

Are the valves built such that if the pressure goes down, in the case of cold/thick oil warming/thinning, does the valve close again? Makes sense to do so. Or is it a one shot operation?


----------



## Michael

Greg the valves are intended to prevent the oil from leaking back into the crankcase. That way on startup you do not have a empty oil filter. The oil pump pushes the oil into the filter and then into the engine or at least that is the idea. :wontshare


----------



## Greg

Michael,

My question is about the bypass/relief valve, instead of the anti-drain-back valve. If the oil pressure reaches the psi required to open it, is it constructed in such a way that it closes when/if the pressure drips below the rated psi to open. If it is built into the engine, is it a replaceable part?


----------



## Michael

Greg,

Now I understand your question. For the most part the bypass, pressure relief valve is built into the oil pump. It is intergal to the oil pump. That is if it is equiped from the engine maker. For the most part almost all of the Kohlers that have a pressurized system use a pressure valve, and some Briggs and Strattons do. I do know from the maintenance manual on my L-120 it is without a bypass valve, The L-130 with the Kohler 23 HP has a valve in the Generac oil pump. It is designed to work if pressure thru the oil filter is exxcessive then it will bypass the oil filter and pump oil to rest of engine. This valve is set to generally go off at a set pressure determined by the engine maker.


----------



## Greg

My questions is............. when the pressure drops below the psi needed to open the valve....will the valve then close? 

1. If the valve is in the engine.....
2. If the valve is in the filter...

It's the closing I am asking about.

If the valve is in the engine...is it replaceable?

Thanks,


----------



## MGM

The by-pass valve talked about in this thread is spring loaded and inside the filters and will close again if no dirt is in the way of the valve sealing area.

Some like the Kohler are down inside the filter on the metal end of the filter element you can see the valve spring retainer by looking down inside the filter center port, others like the NAPA Gold 1348 are at the filter inlet around the center port between the filter element end and the inlet cap.

The valve operates in a variable mode, the more the pressure rises above the set rating of the valves spring the more the valve opens.

>>>------> >>>------> >>>------> >>>------> 

On my 2003 GT5000 CV-730 Kohler Pro I use the NAPA Gold 1348 or WIX 51348 oil filters (both are made by WIX/DANA) and are crossed to one another and the Kohler 5205002 filter with a BP = 8-11psi.

I also use the NAPA Gold 2444 air filter I have yet to need to replace the pre-cleaner I just wash it out, dry it and re-oil it.

I have been using these filters from day one and am very pleased with them, the oil is slightly darker yet clear on oil changes every 50 hours and the inside area of the air cleaner is clean and dust free, and I have had no choking of the intake air due to air filter element density.

And to top it all off NAPA is right around the corner not across town.

Bob


----------

