# Ford 4000 PTO shaft fell out



## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Hello friends,

I am completely new to farming and owning a tractor. My wife and I bought a 17 acre plot with 6 acre pasture last November and this year it became apparent we needed a tractor/bush hog. Long story short, I bought an old Ford 4000 at an auction that seemed to be in good condition for a 65' something Ford. I did research and bought a bush hog that I made sure wasn't too demanding for the tractor. I started on my field which was only full of just grass which had grown up since winter and things were going great. I didn't hit anything, but noticed a lack of bush hog noise after 10 minutes. I looked back and noticed my PTO shaft was out from behind the tractor and all the fluid leaking out. The trail of fluid behind the tractor was only 20 feet long, so it didn't run too long without a shaft. Obviously I immediately stopped the tractor and shut things down. I am somewhat mechanically inclined and I usually work on my own vehicles and am an aircraft mechanic as well... I just know nothing about tractors. It seems as if there could have been a snap ring that popped out and then the seal came loose and then the shaft fell out with all the hydraulic fluid. Can anyone give me advice on what exactly I need to do in order to get this thing running again? Or could there be a bigger issue at hand here? 

Id appreciate any input. Thanks.

-Jonathan


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## the key of knowledge (Jul 12, 2020)

Hi. Looks like the bearing lost its balls! If I am seeing the photo correctly I can see the inner and the outer bearing race but no ball bearings in between the two races. I suggest you first purchase the bearing. Then if you do not have a good size press, you take the shaft to a machine shop along with the new bearing. They can press off the old race and press on the new bearing. I recommend you drain the rear assembly and install new fluid as the old bearings probably disintegrated and will have contaminated the fluid. The four large bolts holding the plate that the PTO shaft goes through will come off and the shaft will pull straight out. You can either make a new gasket with some gasket material and a small ball pinene hammer or buy one. The shaft will install easily. If you have a set of manuals, shop service, parts and operators then you can see how the shaft engages on the inside. If you do not have the manuals let me know and I will look it up next time I am in the shop and will email you some photos. John Mitchell. [email protected] Let me know.


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## the key of knowledge (Jul 12, 2020)

OH!!! Be certain to disconnect the battery so there is no chance of loosing any fingers.... You just cannot know if the inside of the switch is corroded or if the starter solenoid hangs up and might suddenly engage.


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## the key of knowledge (Jul 12, 2020)

Its a nice looking tractor. Hope my 5000 looks that good when I'm done with it. Don't be discouraged by this. We all have the same stuff; just part of the fun of good old iron. In my opinion you have one of the best tractors made. We have three of the older Fords, 3610, 4610 and 5000. John


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

the key of knowledge said:


> ...The shaft will install easily....


Easily?...
https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/replacing-the-inner-snap-ring-on-a-loose-pto-shaft.23849/
https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/ford-4000-pto.34999/#post-243974


Shop Manual:
https://www.tractorforum.com/manuals/ford-2000-3000-4000-3-cyl-1-65-12-74-shop-manual.6/


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Thank you for the information to start things out. It makes me feel a bit better that its a somewhat common issue. 

In reading all the info provided both here and via the links provided, it seems that the thrust washer inside could be "fun" trying to get back on. Before posting this I was able to put the shaft back on and find the slots to get it back where it should sit. Obviously I am lacking bearing and lock rings that will hold it in, but do you think I am going to have an issue with that washer? From the other posts it makes it seem like the shaft would not re-install if the thrust washer had fallen?


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Hacke said:


> Easily?...
> https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/replacing-the-inner-snap-ring-on-a-loose-pto-shaft.23849/
> https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/ford-4000-pto.34999/#post-243974
> 
> ...


Thanks Hacke for the good links. I definitely have the Diesel motor, independent PTO w/ 8 speed gearbox. Still digesting info now and seeing what parts need to be ordered. Like I saw you mentioned in the other thread when you linked the parts list, I do not seem to have the separate housing that supports the bearing indicated as item #74, "cover". It seems like to be safe ill just try and order #65 bearing assembly, #66 Snap rings X2 and #75 oil seal, in addition to 69 & 69A Gasket and O-ring. Anything else you think I might be missing? Its hard to tell what is there because I know I am missing it least 1 snap ring.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Well, Tippmann98 did the work.

I cannot see that you will need anything else apart from the parts you listed.
The two variants of #66 (168104 and BB7045) are a bit confusing though.
Here they are at Messick's, only 168104 has a picture:
https://www.messicks.com/part/168104/ring-snap
https://www.messicks.com/part/bb7045/ring

Quite a difference in prices...


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Hacke said:


> Well, Tippmann98 did the work.
> 
> I cannot see that you will need anything else apart from the parts you listed.
> The two variants of #66 (168104 and BB7045) are a bit confusing though.
> ...


Holy buckets. 20 bucks for a snap ring. Thats crazy. Yeah, ill do some looking and try to measure the one i remove to see if it'll fit. Thanks.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh, I missed that you had the shaft back in place already. The washer has to be stuck in there and did not fall down. Remove the shaft gently next time, so the washer does not fall down.
I hope te washer is not missing, someone have had the tractor split and omitted the washer? Can you see it if you look inside?


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Hacke said:


> Oh, I missed that you had the shaft back in place already. The washer has to be stuck in there and did not fall down. Remove the shaft gently next time, so the washer does not fall down.
> I hope te washer is not missing, someone have had the tractor split and omitted the washer? Can you see it if you look inside?


Yeah, ill definitely remove the shaft slowly and check to make sure the washer is in place. What part number is the washer on the diagram? From looking at Tippmans post and pictures, I don't see exactly what I should be looking for.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

I suppose it is #13 in the diagram 03 TRANSMISSION...07D04:
https://www.messicks.com/nh/116481
It is so stupid, why did they not use a washer with the same outer diameter as the inner diameter of #14?

If you zoom in on Tippmann98's photo:
https://www.tractorforum.com/attachments/pto2-jpg.16997/
you see the upper part of the fallen down washer. Maybe it is hard to see it if it is in it's place.

I found this thread, in the last post (#17) it says that all tractors did not have the washer (spacer?), but I think that means that the non-independent PTO:s did not have it:
https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/4000-ford-pto-shaft.17298/

As far as I can understand, the clutch package is compressed against the thrust washer when the PTO is engaged. Maybe the package, or part of it, on your tractor is stuck and holding the washer?


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

The thrust washer needs to be in there. Or the pto clutch won't work properly. Some guys have good luck greasing the washer up with a gob of grease on a broom handle then with very light pressure against it rotate the pto shaft to lift the washer.
There is also a snap ring in the hole of the tractor itself. Make sure it is there. My local bearing house was unable to get the correct seal for back there. It is thicker than a normal seal of that dia. You can get it from CNH for not too much $. Get the gasket while you are there. It is thin like typing paper. Gasket thickness affects the spacing against the thrust washer. 
It is not a complicated job to fix.


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Alright, progress made! Ill post pictures below for others who find this. I pulled the shaft and coupling. The bearing turns out to be fine. I found the remains of a snap ring in the bottom of the case. Even though it looks like two snap rings, im pretty sure it is just one snap ring that was stretched to the point of breaking. (Caught one of those small metal slivers by it sticking straight into my hand at the bottom of the case). Also it seems my thrust washer is holding in place. Im very tempted to set the bearing back in its place, insert the shaft carefully, and leave it that way until parts arrive to hopefully convince that trust washer it doesn't need to go anywhere. 

The only part that is somewhat confusing is why the parts diagram and even the manual show that extra snap ring. In the parts manual it is item #67 and the manual you linked, which ill show a picture of, it clearly shows two snap rings. #12 is on both sides of the ball bearing, and #13 is between the #12 snap ring and the ball bearing. I clearly don't have the #13 snap ring at all. The #12 snap ring is the one that broke. I wonder if the #13 doesn't actually fit in the groove, but provides a backup to the #12? Maybe that is why mine broke, because someone didn't see the need to purchase an additional $20-30 snap ring?









Here, you can see the oil seal I have moved off to the right. The bearing sits in-between to two grooves.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

The larger snap ring (#13) is for holding the ball bearing outer race. On later models the snap ring sits in a housing. From the other threads and pictures, I got it that the earlier (before 1967) tractors have a shoulder in the rear axle housing that you push the bearing onto, and do not use the snap ring. I was wrong, according to Ultradog there is a snap ring for the outer race.
Look at attached picture, the arrow points to a "ridge", is that the snap ring?


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Ultradog said:


> ..Gasket thickness affects the spacing against the thrust washer. ...


Do you mean that the shaft has a shoulder that sits on the thrust washer?


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Ohhh wow. I completely missed that. Thanks Ultradog and Hacke. Yeah, that Snap ring is an outer snap ring. Thought it was just a lip as the open part of the snap ring was at a 12 o'clock position. Here it is.









So with that snap ring in place and in seemingly good condition, I have on my order list a gasket for the mounting plate, several new of the smaller snap rings, and an oil seal. With the proper gasket, it sounds like you are saying the spacing should fit correctly?


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Random question, where is the proper fill plug level for the rear axle center housing? Manual says "Oil level plug is located in right side of rear axle center housing just in front of rear axle housing." But it doesn't show any diagram of it and I want to make sure its the right one.


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## CTR1 (Aug 17, 2020)

FlyBoy8905 said:


> Ohhh wow. I completely missed that. Thanks Ultradog and Hacke. Yeah, that Snap ring is an outer snap ring. Thought it was just a lip as the open part of the snap ring was at a 12 o'clock position. Here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi,
I have a ford 4000 and had the same thing happen to me a few days ago. Could you give me the part numbers you ordered and where you ordered from?

I was bush hogging when mine came out. I was backing into trees that were a little bigger than what I wanted to run over.

Thanks,
Wes


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

CTR1 said:


> Hi,
> I have a ford 4000 and had the same thing happen to me a few days ago. Could you give me the part numbers you ordered and where you ordered from?
> 
> I was bush hogging when mine came out. I was backing into trees that were a little bigger than what I wanted to run over.
> ...


Hey Wes,

So I dont know your exact model, but I will tell you exactly what I did. There was a part where I needed a press, so I had to take the parts to a shop and paid them 20 bucks to press the bearing back in.

If you take a look at figure #354 in post #14, what fell out of mine was obviously the shaft - #11 because the forward most snap ring, #12 broke. In doing so it caused the oil seal, #16 to also break. My bearings - #14 turned out to be fine, they just had to be pressed back into #15, the bearing retainer. On my tractor, #15 and #18, the bearing retainer and the retainer plate were pressed together and I removed them from the tractor together by removing the 6 bolts on the rear of the plate. I took them along with the bearing to the shop and had the bearing pressed back into the retainer/plate. Since I had to remove that retainer plate, I also ordered the #17 gasket and new lock washers (which aren't indicated on the diagram there).

It all pieces together like figure #354. The only thing that is deceiving is that #13 snap ring is an outer snap ring which should be in place on the actual tractor housing. You can see it discussed in the pictures above. The only additional work I did was to purchase some high temp RTV (which I actually found at Walmart), and added some for additional sealing. I first installed just using the gasket I bought online and I found it leaking between the Retainer plate and the tractor. I removed it, installed the RTV w/ gasket per the instructions on the RTV, and it hasn't shown signs of leaking for me.

Overall, I ordered two new snap rings #12, a new oil seal, new gasket, and two different types of lock washers for the two different bolt sizes. I used Messicks and paid about 42 bucks for it all. I attached the parts list.

From this info, the posts above, and the links from Hacke, hopefully you should be able to figure out the other small details. Let me know if you have any questions, I would be happy to answer what I can.


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## CTR1 (Aug 17, 2020)

Thanks for the info. I have the parts on order now. It's the 3 cyl diesel made around 74 I believe. I'll have to get a wire brush to clean up where all the numbers are and make sure.
I've been using it for almost 20 years now so I'd say it's a reliable tractor.


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## CTR1 (Aug 17, 2020)

My parts came in the mail today. I put the PTO shaft back in but I can't seem to get the last two inches pushed in. Did you have any problems getting yours to go back in? I have moved the lever that engages the PTO. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Is there a tip you can give me on this?

Thanks,
Wes


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

Did you read the part about the thrust washer that drops down and prevents the pto shaft from going all the way in?
Reread this entire thread where someone mentions that.
The pto handle has nothing to do with it. All that does is open/close a valve inside


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## CTR1 (Aug 17, 2020)

Ultradog said:


> Did you read the part about the thrust washer that drops down and prevents the pto shaft from going all the way in?
> Reread this entire thread where someone mentions that.
> The pto handle has nothing to do with it. All that does is open/close a valve inside


Okay, I see it now. I will try the dowel rod and grease trick to get it to stay up.






. Is there any other trick for moving it and making it stay put?

Thanks,
Wes


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

CTR1 said:


> Okay, I see it now. I will try the dowel rod and grease trick to get it to stay up.
> View attachment 60893
> . Is there any other trick for moving it and making it stay put?
> 
> ...


Yes.
You can split the tractor between the transmission and rear end and do it that way.


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## FlyBoy8905 (Jul 23, 2020)

Yeah, everyone else might be a better source for that. I only know what I have read, that its a pain to get back and most people were able to do it with a broom handle and some thick grease.. I got super lucky and my washer never dropped, even after the shaft was out of the tractor for a couple days. 

Make sure too that the shaft is aligned properly with the gears in the transmission. I had to slowly rotate the shaft, feeling the gears until it finally slipped in the last couple inches.


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