# What is this leak? I'm afraid it's bad. Ford 4500 (photos)



## kkl

I just noticed oil leaking from my recently acquired Ford 4500. The first time I actually saw oil spraying from a hole. This was after working the tractor harder than just driving around. It happened again yesterday after working a little bit. This doesn't seem to happen with light use.

The tractor is an ebay purchase (bad idea!), so I have no history other than "runs good". The oil is golden/yellow, so could be tractor fluid or recently changed engine oil. All of the hydraulic levels (hydraulic system, power steering, 6x4 manual reversing transmission, rear axle) were extremely low (more than 8 gallons total!) on this tractor except the engine oil. I haven't lost enough oil yet that I can tell which level is dropping. The tractor does seem to run pretty well, starts easily, and there is no black smoke.

Can anyone tell me from these photos where the oil is coming from? Thanks very much.


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## kkl

After looking at the location more closely, it does appear that the oil is leaking from a hole on the far forward/lower/right section of the transmission housing. The transmission oil level is just slightly above full on the dipstick. Is there a "blowoff" mechanism for overfills? This is a manual transmission, so there is no pump or pressure is there? If transmission oil, why would it spray out of the opening? I'm hoping that it was just a little overfilled and the tractor is just getting rid of the excess.


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## Mickey

Not being familiar with the tractor I can't say for sure. By the location my guess is either front trans oil seal or rear engine seal. You might get a clue by trying to compare the oil from the leak against the trans and engine. Look at visc and color. Other way is to just wait and see which starts showing a sign of dropping oil level. If trans, it may take a long time before seeing any drop in level. The fact that engine oil is under pressure and is not for the trans, doesn't really say much.


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## Miaugi

I'm no expert but from the look of that pic I would say the case is cracked and there a piece of metal missing. On the bright side if it is running well you may be able to fix it with something like JB Weld. Let us know what you find out.


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## Hacke

Do not worry about the hole, it's a flywheel access hole. There is a TDC marking on the flywheel and you use it when adjusting valve tappet clearance. From factory there was a small cover for it: http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/HakanTh/Traktor/Ford/lucka_1.jpg

There is a small hole in the bottom of the bell housing, usually with a cotter pin inserted to keep it free from dirt. Look under bell housing and make sure the hole is open. The idea of the hole is that if oil is leaking in to the housing it should be drained out through the bottom instead of being captured and reach a level where it can get to the clutch parts.
I think your bottom hole is clogged, oil reaches a level where it gets thrown around by the flywheel and squirts out through the TDC marking hole.

I wild idea: Do you have a clutch release bearing greaser? Could that have been filled with oil instead of grease? I know it is far fetched, but it is best to check all possibilities...


By the way, from the pictures your tractor looks to be in very good condition:thumbsup:


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## Hacke

I did some thinking (it takes a while for me...). I have a Ford 4000 diesel 1969, it has the same basics as your 4500. When I had the transmission oil changed there was oil coming out under the transmission cover the first hours of driving. I did not fill too much, rather a bit under. I have heard some people saying the same, and other have never experienced it. It is a strange behaviour, but it is true.

I was thinking about some kind of ventilation, do you have one?
If not, keep the filling cap on transmission cover a little open when driving and watch for oil. If it is tight, and you have the same odd "cooking" thing as me, the oil might get pressed through the shaft's and/or housing's sealings into the bell housing.


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## kkl

Hacke said:


> There is a small hole in the bottom of the bell housing, usually with a cotter pin inserted to keep it free from dirt. Look under bell housing and make sure the hole is open. The idea of the hole is that if oil is leaking in to the housing it should be drained out through the bottom instead of being captured and reach a level where it can get to the clutch parts.
> I think your bottom hole is clogged, oil reaches a level where it gets thrown around by the flywheel and squirts out through the TDC marking hole.


Thanks for the ideas/suggestions. There is a hole on the bottom of that housing. It's about finger size and I couldn't feel anything inside and there's no discharge.



Hacke said:


> I wild idea: Do you have a clutch release bearing greaser? Could that have been filled with oil instead of grease? I know it is far fetched, but it is best to check all possibilities...


As far as the clutch release bearing grease cup, I'd like to know where mine is. The manual says that it's supposed to be present on the 6x4 manual reversing transmission. Their photo looks like it's forward of the brake peddle, but I don't see anything that looks like that (see photos).



Hacke said:


> By the way, from the pictures your tractor looks to be in very good condition:thumbsup:


That's what got me suckered in! Most of these tractors are rust buckets, but this one looked pretty decent. I was hoping it meant that the tractor was well maintained, but that was silly. As I mentioned, I dumped 8 gallons of tractor fluid and still hadn't come close to topping everything off before I decided I should probably just change everything. The power steering container had a red fluid in it indicating that they had used power steering fluid instead of hydraulic fluid. The air cleaner was almost rusted in and was full of dirt. It didn't really matter since the rubber hose to the intake manifold was blown open and the air was entering there. I still need to change the coolant and radiator hoses. I'm extremely nervous about messing with the brittle fan belt. Amazingly though, this thing runs very well. It starts up right away every time, doesn't produce any black smoke, and has plenty of power. I guess you can really abuse these old diesel tractors and they'll keep running.

I decided to go ahead and change the transmission oil, even though I'd recently "topped it off" with 4-8 quarts of a new fluid, in a compartment that only holds 13.2. The fluid that came out looked like coffee with creamer. It was opaque and medium brown, not the golden yellow color of new fluid. I couldn't get the fill level plug off - square nut that was frozen/painted - so had to rely on the dipstick. I got it to exactly the full line. When I worked the tractor, I still got some fluid draining out of that hole. Arrggh! I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on it for now.


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## Hacke

kkl said:


> There is a hole on the bottom of that housing. It's about finger size and I couldn't feel anything inside and there's no discharge.


The hole is normally about 1/4 " in diameter. Are you sure you did not find a hole in a beam or plate under the tractor? It is important that you find it and make sure it is open. When the hole is open you should get most of the oil drained if you park uphill. I scanned a picture: http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/HakanTh/Traktor/Ford/4000_trans002.jpg, hole with cotter pin inserted inside red circle.



> As far as the clutch release bearing grease cup, I'd like to know where mine is. The manual says that it's supposed to be present on the 6x4 manual reversing transmission. Their photo looks like it's forward of the brake peddle, but I don't see anything that looks like that (see photos).


That is were it should be, maybe not all 4500 had it.




> I decided to go ahead and change the transmission oil, even though I'd recently "topped it off" with 4-8 quarts of a new fluid, in a compartment that only holds 13.2. The fluid that came out looked like coffee with creamer. It was opaque and medium brown, not the golden yellow color of new fluid. I couldn't get the fill level plug off - square nut that was frozen/painted - so had to rely on the dipstick. I got it to exactly the full line. When I worked the tractor, I still got some fluid draining out of that hole. Arrggh! I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on it for now.


I would have measured 13.2 and then put that into compartment. The trans cover has been changed, scrap yard marking "Ford 340B", and I would not have relied on the dipstick. It may be OK, I just found out that 340b is built on 3600 and that trans is most likely the same volume as 4500. After filling 13.2 you can check if the dipstick is OK.

As said before, keep an eye on the levels and find out what is leaking.
I just had another of my wild ideas, the steering gear assembly is mounted on top of the bell housing over a hole, on the dowels at 4 in the picture in post #2 (Hey, there is the cotter pin at 5...). It seems a to be a little wet between steering gear box and bell housing on picture in post #7.


The pictures shows dry loader cylinder and an overall clean machine. If it has been badly maintained it does not show and it works fine. From now it has a good home and that is the most important.


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## kkl

Hacke said:


> The hole is normally about 1/4 " in diameter. Are you sure you did not find a hole in a beam or plate under the tractor? It is important that you find it and make sure it is open. When the hole is open you should get most of the oil drained if you park uphill. I scanned a picture: http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww292/HakanTh/Traktor/Ford/4000_trans002.jpg, hole with cotter pin inserted inside red circle.


I misunderstood and was looking only in the area where the oil was dripping. Yes, I did find the cotter pin. I cleaned up around it and it is turning freely.



I am pretty sure now that the oil is from the power steering system. The transmission, engine oil, and hydraulic oil levels are not dropping at all. The PS level keeps dropping rapidly. Since all of the PS components are on the left side of the tractor and the drip is on the right, it didn't seem likely to me.

However, I made the classic error in leak detection by concentrating on where it was dripping from. After looking much more closely, I don't believe the oil is coming through the timing hole. I think now that it is dripping into that hole from above and then coming back out the bottom of the hole, making it look like that was were the oil was coming from.

The seam between the transmission and engine housings is wet from just below the starter (I think. Take everything I write with a grain of salt as I am not mechanically inclined.). The opposite side does not appear to be wet. Sooooo, any idea where power steering fluid would be leaking from to get to this location? See next post for photos.






Hacke said:


> From now it has a good home and that is the most important.


 Sounds like I brought home a dog.:tractorsm I've already got a good one.


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## kkl

Tractor photos


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## Hacke

There was no oil coming out at the cotter pin? That is very good, trans and engine seals are OK.

I am not familiar with 4500 or that PS pump/cylinder assembly. As I understand it, the cylinder is placed across the tractor in front and the pipes are connected to cylinder on the right side of tractor. Are the pipes that go upwards in front of exhaust manifold going over the engine and down again? If so, pipe/s could be leaking on to the top of engine and liquid gets to the back of engine top and runs down there.

The steering gear assembly, that is mounted over hole in bell housing, contains oil. It has no connection to the PS liquid. If the gear assembly leaks, it does not show in the PS reservoir.
If it leaks through the hole in bell housing, you should have oil coming out at the cotter pin.

You do not have any other leaks from PS system, at the cylinder for instance? PS liquid can be leaking through a seal on the axle that drives the pump. PS liquid is then leaking from the pump into the crankcase and it does not show on the outside of tractor. Since the PS liquid is added to the engine oil, the engine oil level is then raised a bit.

It could be engine oil leaking through the gasket between valve cover and engine. If the crankcase ventilation (a piece of hose and a pipe going downwards at the front of valve cover) is not breathing well, a leakage of that sort can be quite extensive, and it corresponds to that it leaks more at heavy duty. If you also have a leak pump to crankcase the engine oil level may not sink, but the PS fluid level will. 


Open the hood and examine the top and back of engine.


Nice picture of those two buddies. :thumbsup:


Well, a tractor is like a dog. Treat it good and it treats you good, and have patience with it if there is a puddle now and then.


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## kkl

After messing around with it some more, I am definitely wrong about the oil coming from below the starter. I cleaned that area up and took the tractor out for some work. When I was on a steep downhill incline, oil was just pouring out of the timing hole and nothing was coming around from above on the outside.



Hacke said:


> You do not have any other leaks from PS system, at the cylinder for instance? PS liquid can be leaking through a seal on the axle that drives the pump. PS liquid is then leaking from the pump into the crankcase and it does not show on the outside of tractor. Since the PS liquid is added to the engine oil, the engine oil level is then raised a bit.
> 
> It could be engine oil leaking through the gasket between valve cover and engine. If the crankcase ventilation (a piece of hose and a pipe going downwards at the front of valve cover) is not breathing well, a leakage of that sort can be quite extensive, and it corresponds to that it leaks more at heavy duty. If you also have a leak pump to crankcase the engine oil level may not sink, but the PS fluid level will.


I think you must be on to the problem. I can't find any external leaks of power steering fluid and none of the components even get close to where it's leaking. The PS fluid level does continue to drop after repeatedly refilling. The engine oil level has been high on the dipstick even though I filled it with the requisite 7 quarts at oil change. I thought it was my imagination, but it also looks "watered down" on the dipstick.

Unless replacing a PS seal is very simple, I think I have a mechanic's bill in my future.


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## Hacke

See next post.


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## Hacke

*PS fluid level sinking
*Seems to be caused by a leaking drive shaft seal, oil gets into crankcase.
Fixing this leak will not stop the leaking from the timing hole.
Quick fix is to change the seal, no big deal. You need however to be sure the seal is worn out by normal wear and tear, or if the pump is worn in it's bearings/bushings. If the latter, the seal will be leaking again.
My advice is that you take the pump to a tractor/hydraulics expert and get a verdict.


*Oil is running out of timing hole.
*This is strange since you do not have any oil at the cotter pin. Use a straightened paper clip, a welding rod or something else that you can push beside the cotter pin and into the housing, and swirl it. There must be dirt above the cotter pin that holds the oil.

I am sorry to say, but it seems like the engine crankshaft seal is leaking.
A picture of the seal, the orange round thing, last in this post. 
Engine oil is leaking pass the orange seal into bell housing and out through timing hole.

The seal can be renewed, however you need to split the tractor (engine removed from bell housing) to do that.
Same question here about why the seal leaks, the crankshaft's play need to be measured. If it is too large, you need to renew bearings in the engine. Once the engine is out, it is wise to check if other parts need service.

My advice is that you ask a reliable mechanic to take a look at the tractor and give further advice.




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## sixbales

Just thinking, which is a slow process.

There are some power steering tubing connections at the base of the steering column that leak occasionally on my tractor (Ford 3600). The oil usually shows up further back running down the side of the bell housing, but in your it case may be worth a check, since you are losing power steering fluid and seeing a leak forward of this area. Maybe it's shooting oil forward under certain pressure / temperature conditions??

I have had to re-tighten the connections (using a flare tube wrench to avoid stripping the nuts), and also I have had to re-do double-crimps on the tubes due to a cracks.

Simple to check - pull the lower cover/cowling beneath the steering wheel and take a look!


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## Hacke

sixbales//
Good thinking, I took for granted that this tractor has a control valve and cylinder assembly in the front, and a steering column like a manual. I do not see any piping going that way from the PS pump.
There is oil in the bell housing, can these steering columns with valves leak through the bottom and into bell housing?


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## sixbales

Hello Hacke and kkl, how are you doing?? 

I realize that my 3600 is quite different from the 4500 power steering system. It has two small PS cylinders attached to the links, as opposed to the one large cylinder, however this is so easy to check (and cheap to fix) that it is worth a try. I've had several small leaks there over the 20 years that I've owned my tractor. 

Pull 4 allen head screws and the cover should come off. I would leave the cover off and put it to work. When you see oil spraying, take a good look around the steering box. Turn the steering wheel in both directions while looking.

Two types of PS leak problems with my tractor's steering box: 1) The connections develop leaks (small leaks) and require re-tightening, and 2) The tubing develops fatigue cracks near the connections. The tubing cracks can be big leaks, but they are not intermittent, as kkl is observing. 

kkl - could it be that the intermittent fluid spray you are seeing is due to turning in one particular direction??

There should be no connection between the steering box and the bell housing.


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## kkl

sixbales said:


> There are some power steering tubing connections at the base of the steering column that leak occasionally on my tractor (Ford 3600). The oil usually shows up further back running down the side of the bell housing, but in your it case may be worth a check, since you are losing power steering fluid and seeing a leak forward of this area. Maybe it's shooting oil forward under certain pressure / temperature conditions??


I REALLY wish that this was the problem. Unfortunately, on the 4500, there are no PS lines around the steering gears. The reservoir is at the back left, connecting to the pump at the front left, which connect farther forward to the PS cylinder over the front wheels. I'll look again, but it just doesn't seem to be possible.


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## kkl

Hacke said:


> *Oil is running out of timing hole.
> *This is strange since you do not have any oil at the cotter pin. Use a straightened paper clip, a welding rod or something else that you can push beside the cotter pin and into the housing, and swirl it. There must be dirt above the cotter pin that holds the oil.
> 
> I am sorry to say, but it seems like the engine crankshaft seal is leaking.
> A picture of the seal, the orange round thing, last in this post.
> Engine oil is leaking pass the orange seal into bell housing and out through timing hole.
> 
> The seal can be renewed, however you need to split the tractor (engine removed from bell housing) to do that.
> Same question here about why the seal leaks, the crankshaft's play need to be measured. If it is too large, you need to renew bearings in the engine. Once the engine is out, it is wise to check if other parts need service.
> 
> My advice is that you ask a reliable mechanic to take a look at the tractor and give further advice.
> 
> ---


I felt ill before. Now I feel positively sick.  You were right (again) about the cotter pin. Even though it was spinning freely and not sludged up on the outside, when I poked a wire up past it a couple of times, oil started draining out. I think you've solved that mystery!

So, the only way for oil to get from the crankcase to the bell housing is through the crankcase seal? Splitting the tractor sounds like big $$$.


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## Hacke

> So, the only way for oil to get from the crankcase to the bell housing is through the crankcase seal?


Yes it is, unless there is a crack or hole in the block (very unlikely). Could possibly leak at the round light brown plate on the picture in post #14, it is a cover for the camshaft with pump drive gear.


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## kkl

So…after a month at the shop, I can finally report what happened. Dye was used to verify that power steering (PS) fluid was dumping into the crankcase and from there into the bell housing. The PS pump was repaired with a re-seal kit. That was the easy part. Unfortunately, oil kept moving from the crankcase into the bell housing, even after removing 3 gallons (!) from the crankcase. This meant splitting the tractor ($$$/nausea). The rear seal was hard as a brick and was replaced. Of course, other things were found at this point. A freeze plug was rusted-out and replaced (dumping all of the coolant). Worse, it was discovered that the clutch pads were almost completely worn out. This meant a trip to the clutch shop for a clutch rebuild with ceramic pads (~$500). Total cost: $2,367.70!! Labor: 17.50 hrs @ $77.45/hr = $1,355.38. What lessons have I learned from this?

1) Listen to Hacke. He knows what he’s talking about. He had this figured out before any work was done.
2)	Don’t buy a tractor off of ebay, especially from McGrew Equipment Company. Everything they sell “runs good”. However, they don’t disclose anything that is not completely obvious. If they don’t look, they don’t have to disclose it, right? They loaded the tractor for shipping with a flat tire without telling me, so why would they check any fluid level, or that the air filter was rusted into its housing, or that an intake manifold hose was blown out… I could go on. Let’s just say, I learned an expensive lesson.#[email protected]$:


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## 143tallboy

*Ford 4500 Problem*

Hi There:
Sorry to read about your oil leak issue.
I had a 4500 for 20 years and shortly after I bought it, it seized and a cracked block was discovered. Like your machine, it was an expensive repair. Yours looks to be in great shape. 
The good news is that the 4500 is a solid machine and I'm sure it will do all you'll need it for. The 4500 is an industrial version of a Ford 4000 farm tractor. Many parts are still available through the Ford(New Holland) dealers or tractor wreckers, which is more than can be said for some other lines of equipment on the market today.
Good luck with it.
Robin in Ontario


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## qattban

fiatagri 80 90 dt haw to add oil to the gear box


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## qattban

fiatagri 80 90 hi lo haw can I add the oil to the gear box
B.R
Qattban


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## mosesk

Hi there I am Moses. My tractor, Ford 4000- diesel, can't lift the Plough what could be the problem?


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## Harvey_W

Hi Moses,

Welcome to the Ford/New Holland tractor forum.

Ford made two completely different model 4000's. The original model 4000 had a 4 cylinder engine and was manufactured from 1962 to 1964. The next model 4000 had a 3 cylinder engine and was made from 1965 through 1974. 

Which model do you have?


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## UPFord

Oops, didn't see page 2.


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