# Ford 601 dead



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

I have a 58 641 workmaster that's been a fairly reliable tractor. I decided to switch it from 6v to 12v and bought a kit that included everything, including a wire harness, since my original harness was tired. 
The swap was fairly straightforward and pretty easy. After the swap the 601 fired up fast and ran like a top. But after running for about 20mins, it died and it won't even crank. It's completely dead and won't do anything.
I've got spare solenoids, 12v batteries, coils, ignition switch, etc but swapping parts has done nothing. It's still won't crank. I've double and triple checked everything.
My question is; is there a nss (neutral safety switch) on 601's? Is there a way to bypass the push button to test it? I'm suspecting the push button may be bad?
Thanks for any advice


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Can a mod move my post to the Ford section? I just saw the sticky.
Thanks


----------



## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

Howdy ZombiePopper, welcome to the tractor forum.

When depressed (with the trans in neutral), the starter button on top of the transmission provides a ground circuit for the solenoid coil. The starter switch has a built-in safety feature.....you can only push it down when the transmission is in neutral. You may have to wiggle the shift lever fore and aft a bit to get everything to line up where the button will push down.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks for the welcome.
The starter button will depress, but it won't crank. I've tried moving the shifter around. But still it won't even crank.
Is there a way to bypass the starter button? I've noticed my starter button sticks, which is why I suspect it may be faulty.
What else could prevent it from cranking (besides the solenoid, battery or ignition switch since I've swapped known good parts on)?


----------



## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

ZombiePopper said:


> Can a mod move my post to the Ford secation? I just saw the sticky.
> Thanks


Thread moved.


----------



## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

All you have to do is touch the wire attached to the starter button to ground to bypass the starter button.

Other than the items you mentioned, the battery cables may be corroded internally and not delivering power. Also, I have had a battery that voltage dropped to zero when a minor load was applied. Internal battery problem.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

I appreciate the input guys.
I grounded the starter button, but Nada. Still won't crank.
I'll swap the battery out of my jeep tomm (750cca) and see if she'll crank-I hope.
I've ran my multimeter all around my connections, i have power in all the right spots and everything looks fine- I'm stumped. 
But, I'm not seeing any load being drawn with key 'on' and hitting the start button. There should be SOME kind of load...
I'm also going to replace my starter cable, it's showing some age.
There's no fuses on a 601, is there? Should my ignition switch be a 12v unit? I'm still running the 6v unit.


----------



## BigT (Sep 15, 2014)

To bypass the starter solenoid, take a screwdriver and jumper it across the heavy cable terminals on the starter solenoid. Make sure the tranny is in neutral


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

OK the plot thickens.
(I've used the old screwdriver trick on old ford cars and trucks and thought about it on this 601. But I was always told its bad for the starter and solenoid?)
But I went ahead and tried it anyway. But here's the kicker, it did nothing, not even sparks at the screwdriver shafts. I tried it with the wire on the starter button and then grounded. I swapped on 2 other solenoids and still nothing.
Any idea guys?


----------



## BigT (Sep 15, 2014)

You have 12V to the solenoid? The starter must be open circuit? Check it with your ohmmeter.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

OK update: so after messing with it and swapping batteries, I am getting 12v on the battery side of the solenoid.
Using the screwdriver I am now getting sparks and the starter spinning.
BUT, the starter button isn't working.
And the bendix isn't coming out and spinning the flywheel.
Is starter or starter button faulty? Or both?
In the past, 
I'd smack a stuck starter with a hammer...


----------



## harry16 (Dec 8, 2011)

Hello ZombiePopper,

You can get a new starter pushbutton at your New Holland dealership. If not, Messicks (New Holland Dealership) has them for $32. Also, check the internet, including ebay. They have aftermarket switches for less than the dealership price.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks I'll check those places for a new button.
Hopefully it's just the button and not my starter?


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

ZombiePopper -- if the starter is spinning as it should, this would show the starter is ok, just seems like the Bendix is stuck, this may need a cleanup and lube, not with oil or grease though, RP7 or WD40 will do the trick.

Should you remove the starter, and the Bendix has the one way clutch, check to see that this is not slipping, you should feel slight resistance one way and the other way should not slip at all.

it is obvious that the starter button is kaput and I would also get into the load carrying wiring from battery to solenoid and the earth side wiring also, if you have a good set of jumper leads, these can be a help by connecting between battery positive to the solenoid connection and from battery earth to a good earth on the tractor, this will show if the leads are faulty, use both together to test and remove either to check out the cables.

There should be no problem with 12 volts passing through your ignition switch.

you could also fit a standard starter switch to the tractor and bypass the safety starter switch, BUT!!, doing that will remove the safety factor unless you were to wire this through the ignition switch as a safety precaution.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Great info, thanks.
All my wiring on the starting/charging side is new now. But the safety feature doesn't really bother me, so I think I'd like to keep it.
I really appreciate all the info Fred.
And everyone that replied. 
I've got some parts to order and I'll update later.
Thanks


----------



## Guest (Jun 29, 2017)

ZombiePopper said:


> I have a 58 641 workmaster that's been a fairly reliable tractor. I decided to switch it from 6v to 12v and bought a kit that included everything, including a wire harness, since my original harness was tired.
> The swap was fairly straightforward and pretty easy. After the swap the 601 fired up fast and ran like a top. But after running for about 20mins, it died and it won't even crank. It's completely dead and won't do anything.
> I've got spare solenoids, 12v batteries, coils, ignition switch, etc but swapping parts has done nothing. It's still won't crank. I've double and triple checked everything.
> My question is; is there a nss (neutral safety switch) on 601's? Is there a way to bypass the push button to test it? I'm suspecting the push button may be bad?
> Thanks for any advice


Here's what my dad and I did with his 9N back in the day. Make dam sure the transmission is in neutral. Jump start by running jumper cable ground to a good ground on the chassis, and hit the "hot" jumper to the hot wire connection on the starter. Tractor starter should turn over the engine and give you another point to start the process of elimination in troubleshooting.


----------



## rogerru (Dec 22, 2016)

the mystery is that, per what you've said, it worked fine first time/one time. but not the second. so, what changed or went bad in that short time? your push button switch is just a ground. it's the yellow wire off the little post on the solenoid and is always hot. as has been said, take the wire off the button and touch it elsewhere for a spark/spin. also, try bypassing the just installed resister. if your solenoid has 2 little posts, disconnect orange/left wire that goes to the junction. if your starter drive is bad the starter will either (usually) just spin or be stuck making the starter get hot fast. with a volt meter, just follow the "juice trail". from 6v to 12v you should only need to change what comes in the kit. as far as starting/charging goes, you don't need to change solenoid, coil, switches, etc. don't have a kit resister and a resister coil. that tries to drop voltage twice to the points. but that's a starting item not cranking. these are just suggestions of things to investigate.


----------



## deerhide (Oct 20, 2016)

To bypass your ignition switch; run a wire from pos. battery post to the coil ON THE SIDE AWAY FROM THE DISTRIBUTOR!.Jumper cable from pos. battery to starter. If it just whirls and doesn't engage remove starter, wash bendix in diesel or gas, not WD, and try again. If it's a no-go tow it and if it still won't start the 12v change may of ff'ed up the points. You should put on a condenser to drop point voltage to 6.


----------



## duke7595 (Jan 23, 2012)

If you have spark at the points with key to on position, than your key switch should be good.
To check, use a screw driver to touch the point contacts, it should give a small spark.
From reading the other posts it sounds like you have a faulty starter and or bendix.
Let us know how you make out, and good luck.


----------



## butchfig8 (Mar 29, 2007)

Multimeter is a high resistance device, use meter in parallel with like 5k res
to put some load on test point, when testing for volts, starter / bendix should work out of tractor.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

I appreciate everyone's input. 
So here's an update, I replaced the starter button, battery and starter cables, but still Nada.
One thing that's bothered me about this kit is I'm not seeing any power wires to the starter system.
The coil, dizzy, starter solenoid, etc are all wired but I'm not seeing any place to wire power to the starting system. 
I unhooked the wire to the starter button and touched it to the positive side battery and my 601 fired right up.
My question is; what's the best and safest way to wire it?


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

More info.
This is a negative ground 12v system with points.
This kit is VERY limited for wiring. Besides the obvious wiring, It shows 2 wires, 1 goes to ammeter and 1 goes to amp meter. Which as you guys know, the 601 has neither. So I put a cap on both since I wasn't sure where they go.
When i first started it I had a 6v fuel gauge hooked up that I cut the wires on to safely get it out of the way.


----------



## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

QUOTE: " It shows 2 wires, 1 goes to ammeter and 1 goes to amp meter. So I put a cap on both since I wasn't sure where they go."

Is there a typo here??


----------



## Guest (Jul 4, 2017)

Not being an expert on 601 wiring, just a suggestion.....try giving the company you bought the kit from (or the company that assembled the kit) a call or email and you may get through to someone technical. Odds are, you are not the first to experience this problem.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

It's not a typo. I'm not sure what the difference is. But That's what the actual wiring schematic included with the kit show. I like the fact a wire harness came with this kit. But I dislike the limited and confusing info that came in the kit.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Maybe an automotive ignition switch would work best? And bypass the starter button completely?


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

OK my new plan is as follows; I'm going to run a new, separate wire from the alt to the Sos light and another wire from the Sos light to the starter button. I'm not a 100% sure it'll work because it might only supply power if it's running? And I need it to start first, but we'll see....


----------



## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

Do not hook a starter button to your alternator. If it grounds the solenoid you will blow the alternator diode bridge.

Take the time to post the instructions from the kit, so we cam see what path you were led down. These kits are dead simple and should not present a problem.


----------



## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

QUOTE: " It shows 2 wires, 1 goes to ammeter and 1 goes to amp meter. So I put a cap on both since I wasn't sure where they go." _______________________________________________________
Does it happen to say 1 wire goes to the ammeter (+) and one goes to the ammeter (-). The ammeter is a simple coil which completes a circuit, but you have to maintain polarity or it will read backwards. Since you do not have an ammeter, connect the wires together.


----------



## wjkrostek (Aug 31, 2013)

inconsiderate of people to stop posting and not telling us what or how you fixed it. It may help someone else.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

wjkrostek said:


> inconsiderate of people to stop posting and not telling us what or how you fixed it. It may help someone else.


Well, I'm still working on it between work and life. Nice assumption though. 
Anyway, working on pics but I can't take it in 1 shot so may have to do it in several pics. But I have a new schematic, the old 1 was a typo from the printing company on ammeter. But now the new schematic lists both red wires as going to ampmeter. So it really doesn't clear up my confusion since the 601's don't have 1.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)




----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Sorry for its condition. It's been under my welding magnet attached to my 601's hood. With tools being moved around on it. 
Don't know if it matters, but the Junction block deteriorated when I was installing this kit so I'm temporarily using wire nuts until I can find another Junction block some where? 
After I installed the kit it literally fired up as soon as I installed the kit, but now nothing (unless I touch starter button wire to the positive side battery). But at the time I did have the 6v fuel gauge hooked up, so maybe it was providing power? Until I removed it, since it was 6v. I removed all the generator wiring since it was just hanging.
The coil, dizzy, battery, solenoid, alternator are all wired up correctly. And I now have a 12v fuel gauge installed.
If you guys see anything I'm missing or some thing obvious feel free to point it out and you have my permission to call me a knucklehead.


----------



## wjkrostek (Aug 31, 2013)

My comment was not a dig at you. Just that many times I follow a post and then they just stop. No indication of what was wrong or how they fixed it. Good luck on your learning process. I had a similar problem with a 941. I didn't need to keep it original so I just wired her my way. Did away with the key and had a switch and wired a push button for the starter sol. Just to keep her working so that she would run. Sounds like you know enough to by pass all them wires and just get her going. No need to keep her original you already converted it to 12 volts. You said she ran for 20 mins. at first so you must of got it right. keep trying you will find it.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

wjkrostek said:


> My comment was not a dig at you. Just that many times I follow a post and then they just stop. No indication of what was wrong or how they fixed it. Good luck on your learning process. I had a similar problem with a 941. I didn't need to keep it original so I just wired her my way. Did away with the key and had a switch and wired a push button for the starter sol. Just to keep her working so that she would run. Sounds like you know enough to by pass all them wires and just get her going. No need to keep her original you already converted it to 12 volts. You said she ran for 20 mins. at first so you must of got it right. keep trying you will find it.


Thanks, appreciate it.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

red wire #1 from alternator to amp meter is one wire
red wire #3 from amp meter to #3 red wire solenoid battery side is also a single wire and because you have no amp meter "this must be joined", otherwise your battery will go flat (no Charge).
#2 white wire is self explanatory and long as this is connected to the + side of the coil.
#4 yellow wire should be active 12/14 volts if connected correctly to the solenoid and touching this to earth should crank the engine,--- if the push button start switch is only single wire!!, otherwise "Houston, we have a problem". you could get your multimeter and check for voltage on the start side of the solenoid, if there is no voltage here, we will have to talk some more.

#6 orange wire is the power supply from the solenoid to the ign. switch through the junction box and and then through the system to the coil.

if you were to make a jumper and attach this to the + pole of the battery and to the + post on the coil and then bridge the two major poles on the solenoid, you tractor should fire up and run.

the warning light is a charge indicator for the alternator, when the ign. is switched on, voltage comes from the ign. switch though the warning light and then to earth through the alternator field windings and when the alternator throws a charge, this then neutralises the voltage and the light goes out, please don't wire anything to this circuit.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks for the info!
I think my issue is at the top of the schematic, where all the wiring is around the ignition switch.


----------



## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

Take a look at this link, it is a better set of instructions from Sparex: http://media1.sparex.com/us/docs/61021.pdf
This set identifies the terminals and exact wires to connect to the Junction Box.

Usually when this conversion goes ary it is a loose terminal on the Junction Box.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Thanks a bunch that schematic is so much better and clear. 
It probably doesn't help that my Junction block fell apart when I touched it.
Does anyone sell a replacement Junction block? 
I'm stuck using wire nuts until I find one.


----------



## RC Wells (Dec 26, 2008)

http://www.fixthatford.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=543

Same critter as yours.


----------



## bbirder (Feb 26, 2006)

It worked at first,..............Double check wire nuts!


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Will do thanks. I've been checking them religiously because I hate using them. But I'll check them again. FYI wire nuts were not there when it fired up initially.


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Just wanted to provide an update in case anyone else runs into this issue.

So I switched the orange and yellow wire on the small posts on the solenoid. Upon turning on the ignition key the tractor fired up (without touching the starter button just the key). Initially, I figured I'd leave it like that and change to 12v auto ignition but upon trying to start it again the starter continued to try and crank while it was running. So that wouldn't work and I switched the orange and yellow wires on the solenoid back again.

Finally, I decided to give up and change to a 12v push button starter (disconnecting the new, original style 6v starter button completely). After that, my tractor fired up and ran like a top. I did have to drill a new hole in the shroud around the steering column which I hated to do but necessity is the mother of invention. This also bypasses the in-gear safety system, which I also dislike. 

On the bright side, at least my 601 is back up and running like a top. Hind sight being what it is, I should've just done this from the beginning. But I really wanted to retain all the original components. So far, there definitely seems to be an improvement to starting and a slight improvement to throttle response and power. Time will tell...and the next task is installing an electronic ignition to do away with the points.

I really appreciate everyone's input and knowledge to try and get this old girl running again. You guys were a big help, in fact, I couldn't have done it without you.


----------



## Guest (Aug 11, 2017)

You've been thru the wars with the 12v conversion. I grew up with a 9N and certainly know the limitations of 6v systems, especially with a tractor that has to "work for a living." You mention converting to an electronic ignition, let me tell you of my experience with that: my 2000 had it installed when I purchased it. No literature on the ignition conversion or mention of it by the previous owner. One of the first things I did was compression checks and thought that not knowing the history of the tractor, I would change out the spark plugs after the checks. Of course I gapped the plugs according to ford manual specs......Wrong answer for my tractor. On mine, the electronic ignition required .05 wider gap on the plugs! I had no way of knowing this due to no literature or pass on info from previous owner. Good luck!


----------



## ZombiePopper (Jun 23, 2017)

Good info, I appreciate it. 
I thought I read somewhere, that upon switching from 6v to 12v I should also gap my plugs on the fat side as well.


----------

