# any masons out there? need a cement stoop



## guest

i want to put a cement stoop on the side entrance...
just a single slab of concrete to wipe my feet on.. 
I was thinking probably 4 Ft * 3 ft 4 " slab

1. any guesses on how much cement? 300 lbs? 

2. is it easy to do?


it looks fairly straight forward.. set up forms ensure they are level and square..
fill with cement... 
scrape the top level with a board...

3. what would i need for tools? a trowel? 

4. how do i get it to look nice and flat? 

5. would i connect it to the existing slab? (i would guess no on this one) id probably just ghet it close up to the doorway.. 

6. Just basic home depot cement?? 

anything else i need to think about?


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## Hutch001b

Great! Just posted this response earlier and when I submit I get web site not responding.

Quikrete site says for 12 sq. ft. 4" thick you'd need 6 80# bags of mix.
I'm not a concrete expert but I think you'd need a regular flat trowel and an edger trowel. I'd put some rebar or mesh in there too to keep it from breaking up.
I'm thinking about doing a walk from my deck to the drive and it would just be a bunch of pieces about the same size as you're doing. Good Luck, Hutch


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## Argee

You get it level and flat on the forms before you even pour concrete. I'd use an expansion strip between the existing slab and it. Have the bottom sandy and compacted real well. Use your new wheel barrow for mixing.


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## guest

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> * I'd use an expansion strip between the existing slab and it. . *



what do you mean an expansion strip?


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## Argee

> _Originally posted by simple_john _
> *what do you mean an expansion strip? *


They should sell them near the concrete and tools. It's a 4" x 1/2" strip of asphalt that goes between your existing slab and the new one to allow for concrete movement. The approach your going to put in, because it will be exposed to the elements more than the other, is going to move around on you in the winter...the expansion strip doesn't allow them to damage one another.


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## guest

what do you think i need for tools..
they have floats, leveling trowel (which looks like a thin float) 
& edgers & trowels ect..


I thought i would level it with a 2*4 and then just get a float or a leveling trowel to make it look flat..

what about an edger? think its needed? i guess they just put a nice round edge on the slab...

also: regarding expansion strip: my new form will be flush against the slab so when i pull the form there will be an inch and a 1/2 so is an expansion strip needed? Or do i need 3 of them to fill in the space??


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## Stewart

I used a 2x4 and a tile trowel for the ramp on the back of my shop. the finish is not super pretty but it works for me. It is a ramp on the back of the shop!

I would get a piece of the expansion jount material and put it between the existing slab and your step, it is a good idea. The edging tool will give you a nice clean edge, not required but it will looks nice and they aren't too expensive.


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## Argee

To expound on what Stewart said....use the expansion material in lieu of a form board against your existing slab. Set the form boards into the ground at the level you want and pound wooden stakes in next to them....then nail your form boards to the stakes....make any necessary adjustments and make sure you have compacted all sand and you should be ready to pour...you can float with a 2 x 4...a float brings the cream to the top, pushing the aggregate down, so yo have something for a smooth finish. The edging tool does exactly what you said, it rounds over your corners giving a finished look..


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## guest

so if i float with a 2*4 do i need to bother to buy the hand floater? its about 16$ (for the made in USA one) and the edger (made in US) is 14$. 

not too sound wicked cheap here.. but i probably wont use them for much else again so no need spending the money if not needed.. 

and if i can float with the 2*4 and get it smooth.. do i need to bother with the hand floater? i would skip that and get the edger.. 

Im being cheap cause it just cost me 550$ yesterday for more fill in the driveway.. (last time) thankfully..


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## Stewart

Thanks Argee


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## Argee

If you float it with a 2 x 4 it would eliminate the need for a float....once you have put a smooth finish on it with a trowel....take a stiff bristled floor broom and drag it over the top to give it a broom finish.....that way it won't be snot slippery when wet.


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## Argee

Your welcome Stu


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## Stewart

Sound like a project you are going to try SJ???:cheers:


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## guest

ok so i can skip the float.. but i do need to buy a trowel... 

*Yes Stew im going to do it this weekend..* 

i may have a problem getting the slab flush or close enough to the garage slab.. becasue i ran electrical in PVC pipe that is sort of flush to the garage and where the end of the slab would go... i guess i could put the pipe inside of the slab/step i am making.. but it would probably force me to keep the slab about 1-2" away from the garage slab.. 


Unless i re-dig the pipe up and move it over more (which i did already yesterday) 


thanks so no need for a float.. but get a trwoel and an edger...
thanks 
sj


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## Chipmaker

I would make it pitch away from the building though and not make it perfectly flat and level. One inch or so in 3 or 4 feet will not be noticeable and will lead to water running away in a desired direction. You can nail a block of wood to a piece of 1 x 4 and use it as a float, and use a 2 x 4 for a skreed (straightedge). Hold the 2 x 4 on its edge not on the direct flat section of the 2" (1 1/2") portion and use a sawing motion pulling one side further ahead than the other. Biggest problem most folks have with concrete is overworking it. They kill them selves "working" the stuff instead of allowing it to work itself. Don't make it sloppy wet or strength will be reduced, and Quickrete or Sakrete is not all that stong to begin with so easy on the water. Skreed it off, allow to set up a bit, and float it with a wooden float........in a circular motion, with little to no downpressure on float. Once its floated, run your edging tool around the edges. At first you may have to raise the leading edge of the edger up a bit if concrete is not firm enough. ONce satisfied, hit it with a steel finishing trowel, in broad semi circular sweeps, using it at a very lowq angle with just the elading edge rasied a bit off the concrete itself. As it sets up more you can lay the steel trowel conmpletely or almost completely down flat on the surface. Then using a broom (floor type push broom) just drag the surface lightly to impart a slighly rougher finish to it so its not slick when wet. The brush finish will also help mask or hide any trowel marks you may leave.

Others mentioned using expansion material, and mesh. Mesh should be sufficient, for a stoop this size and you should not need any rebars. Make sure the mesh is in the lower 1/3 to 1/2 of the slab off the ground. Cut the mesh to fit so that it is approx 1" away from edges of forms, so it lessens thew chance of it bleeding through at a later date. Dampen your forms prior to filling with concrete so the wood does not suck too much moisture out of the mix. Pea gravel or #2 stone would be fine, and make sure its compacted sufficiently. 

Me if I was mixing it by hand I would use a sweat board instead of a wheel barrow. Mixing cement or concxrete in a wheel barrow is a PITA in my opinion. A sweat board is a surface that you dump your mix on and then shovel it off of or pickup an edge and pour it off. Typically I use a 4 x 8 or sometimes 2, 4 x 8 pieces of plywood laid together side by side on the ground, with one edge up against the forms. Pour all my materials on this plywood and dry mix it all, add water mix again and either scoop it off or rake it off into the forms. Its a pain usiing a bazrrow with rounded corners, and if you dam or mound the ingredients and keep pulling the dry into the water or wet mix, it will not run off the sweat board. As a kid I used to work on a sweat board pouring house footers and foundations for my grandfather and uncles by hand along with about 2 or three others all using a hoe. Their practice was if its less than 4 yards at a time needed, do it by hand, as ready mix in that area back then was kind of iffy and you could never count on getting what you wanted when you needed it, and they had a 9 yard minimum, so labor was cheap or free so the old sweat boards were used. Larger batyches can be made with the board as compared to a mortan tub or barrow, and with it being at or close to ground level its much easier to work than up higher in a barrow.


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## Stewart

I used the wheelbarrow and a shovel for my job. A hoe would have been easier, but I didn't want to go buy one just for this project. My dad and I mixed up 10 bags total. I was a little sore the next day. We only did one bag at a time so we didn't get it too wet, and it is easier to mix. You can put the conduit in the concrete, it won't hurt it.


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## Argee

Don't forget....we need progressive pictures of this


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## Stewart

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> *Don't forget....we need progressive pictures of this *


What he said!!!!:worthy:


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## guest

thanks for the info... 
chip; 
i figured id use my wheel barrel for mixing.. i dont have any 4*8's around to cement up.. but the rest of your advise is well taken.. thanks..


good info all.. and thanks..
so i will see about getting an edger and will screed with a 2*4 then float (with my already bought float (or i can make one) ill get a finishing trowel and get it looking good and do the edges...


ill pitch it away from the garage.. 


as for pics.. thee is not that much progressive work.. i can take a pic of me openigng the bags and mixing it up... :furious: :furious: 

I have a bunch of rebar kicking around so i thought id put some in... 

stupid question.. how do i get the rebar in the middle of the slab.. do i pour an inch or 2 and then put the rebar in? in tic tac toe formation? 

2nd stupid question: if i do it a few bags at a time (or whatever my wheel barell will hold.. is that ok? as in pour an inch then mix another 2 bags and pour another inch.. that does not weaken the step? i guess if the mixing and pouring would only be done a few minutes apart it would not be too bad...


Thanks ill post a pic or 2 but really.. it would be sort of boring..


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## Stewart

I would do no more than 2 bags at a time, any more gets tough to mix. 

They sell wire in a roll near the concrete stuff that you can use to wire the rebar in a grid pattern. As far as getting it off the ground they also sell a plastic spacer type thing to get it up off the gound. Now would I buy the spacers, No I would use rock or somethng like that. is that a bad idea??  

I poured one bag at a time in the the form, it will stay pretty much where you put it. I mixed it fairly dry, I was afraid of getting too much moisture. 

We will have to see what everyone else says about my spacer idea!!


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## Argee

Putting rebar into a slab as small as that is way overkill. But if you have it to use up........after you put your first batch in just lay it down..the aggregate isn't going to let it settle to the bottom.


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## guest

ok i formed up my little slab... 


the pic looks a little too pitched downward but it is not that bad... just the angle..

got 560 lbs of cement.. if it EVER stops raining up here i will do it..


<img src=http://www.tractorforum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=38976>


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## guest

i weould have made the stop higher (not level with the ground) 
but the slab would have been against the side of the building..

plus the garage slab was not a straight level surface...

for the garage slab, they used 2*6's and dug around the 2*6 bases to get an 8" footing.. so the garage slab, where i wanted to rest the stoop up against is not flat..

<img src=http://www.tractorforum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=38978>


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## Argee

Looks good SJ...you need to tamp (compact) the sand and your ready to pour:thumbsup:


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## guest

i ended up putting the expansion strip agains the uneven slab.. then ill put a piece of wood up against the garage slab to not get cement on that...

do you think the stoop is too low?


<img src=http://www.tractorforum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=38982>


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## guest

final one


<img src=http://www.tractorforum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=38984>


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## Argee

I'd put another expansion strip against the upper part too. Wood will leave to big of a gap.


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## guest

i was going to put the wood as a sort of form.. then when dried pull the wood out.. with the psuedo wood form,

there would be no way that the top of my stoop would ever reach the flat part of the slab... if i were to put expansion joint up there id need 3 of them for its about 2" thick..


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## Argee

The way it looks to me is the top of the form is about an inch from the bottom of the door sill.....is that a correct assumption?


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## guest

yup on the sides... for the back (against the door sill) im going to rip a board to fit snug in that hole (above the expansion joint) and against the door sill so the stoop wont be touching the garage slab except where the expansion joint is... 

i could just put 3 more (3 because of the depth) expansion joints against the door sill but thought wood in a temp form would work better...


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## Argee

Just put one strip against the door side, then throw some sand on the existing step in the concrete when you poor. That should keep it from sticking to the new, besides if it sticks a little it'll pull away when the ground freezes.


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## jodyand

sj what else are you pouring 560# of cement is way more then you need for that


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## guest

> _Originally posted by jodyand _
> *sj what else are you pouring 560# of cement is way more then you need for that *


well i figured id rather have too much than have to run to the home depot for more...  



ps.
Thanks Argee for the extra info..


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## jodyand

I guess that one way to look at it Now i want that grass cut tomorrow you hear:lmao: And toba if you see this i want that lattice up you hear me:furious:


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## guest

God Damn... now i got jody on my case too... dont you worry man.. by this weekend ill have a step and a clean cut lawn... 


then you can start harping on me about gutters for the garage.. and stain for the T111 siding.. and paint for the floor... 


But I bet I will have it all done before tis gets his lattice stuff complete...



:furious: :furious:


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## jodyand

> _Originally posted by simple_john _
> *God Damn... now i got jody on my case too... dont you worry man.. by this weekend ill have a step and a clean cut lawn...
> 
> 
> then you can start harping on me about gutters for the garage.. and stain for the T111 siding.. and paint for the floor...
> 
> 
> But I bet I will have it all done before tis gets his lattice stuff complete...
> 
> 
> 
> :furious: :furious: *


I bet you will to:furious:


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## Argee

> _Originally posted by simple_john _
> *God Damn... now i got jody on my case too... dont you worry man.. by this weekend ill have a step and a clean cut lawn...
> 
> 
> then you can start harping on me about gutters for the garage.. and stain for the T111 siding.. and paint for the floor...
> 
> 
> But I bet I will have it all done before tis gets his lattice stuff complete...
> 
> 
> 
> :furious: :furious: *


That's why I never post what I need to get done:lmao: :lmao:


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## guest

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> *That's why I never post what I need to get done:lmao: :lmao: *


smart move.. jody would have been calling you at the hospital asking where you stood with your projects....:furious: :furious: :furious:


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## Argee

> _Originally posted by simple_john _
> *smart move.. jody would have been calling you at the hospital asking where you stood with your projects....:furious: :furious: :furious: *


:lmao:Yeah..he'd want to talk to the doctors as to when I'd be ready:lmao:


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## guest

"Doctor What do you mean he's not breathing?? he's got hogs to feed and a lawn to cut!!!!"


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## Ingersoll444

> _Originally posted by jodyand _
> *I guess that one way to look at it Now i want that grass cut tomorrow you hear:lmao: And toba if you see this i want that lattice up you hear me:furious: *


Hey Jody? You got that rail iron to Andy yet????

[he stands back waiting for the berrage]


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## jodyand

No i have it but he wont set up a date or time to meet  He just asks if i will hang onto it a while longer.


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## Ingersoll444

LOL Sureeeeeeeeeeeeee he did.     



:spinsmile :spinsmile


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## Argee

Nice try Paul..I'll give you a 10:lmao:


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## balmoralboy

*Concrete step*

Pre-made chairs work well. So will rocks or bent rebar. I have used rebar vertical pounded into the ground and then tied the cross bars to the posts. The best is to tie the bar to the form, but make sure you patch the hole where you break out the wire tie when you strip the form, or you can get water in to rust up your rebar.

Or you can tie the rebar into a mat and then once it's all poured use a hook to lift the bar up. The big thing is that the bar only stops cracking up if it's in the top half of the slab. The reason is that concrete works great to handle things pushing on it, but has no strength to resist pulling on it. The steel provides the strength against pulling... when you lay the slab across uneven ground and jump on one corner you are pulling one corner away from the rest at the top. The steel needs to be in the top half to hold your top surface together. Sort of like if you bend a twig and then score it across the top with a knife it will part pretty quickly.

Anyway, make SURE the rebar is in the top half of your slab. Remember steel sinks in concrete.


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## guest

i did not add any rebar.. i had some of that fencing stuff that was used in my other slab so put that in..



<img src=http://www.tractorforum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=39317>


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## guest

> _Originally posted by jodyand _
> *sj what else are you pouring 560# of cement is way more then you need for that *



actually i needed more cement.. I ran out and had to get another 160 lbs... 
I guess my calculations were off....


<img src=http://www.tractorforum.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=39318>

im no mason. but it came out ok...


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## jodyand

There isn't no way you have 720# of cement there I cant believe itmg:


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## Argee

Nice job SJ:thumbsup: It looks professional...must be in your blood:lmao:


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## guest

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> * It looks professional...must be in your blood:lmao: *



well i am Italian... somewhere in my genes theres some good masons....


yeah jody.. i think because my forms were 6" not 4"

but i did go by the quickrete specs.. actually i could have used about 2 more shovels full...


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## Chipmaker

Its hard as heck (to me anyhow) to get what volume the prepacked bags of concrete are suppoed to give. I always find it makes less.....

Italians were among some of the best cement finishers and masons around.

If this was your first projkect in concrete you did mighty fine. It looks great SJ..........now where are you gonna get that semi truck load of sakrete or quickrete in and start hand mixing your driveway?


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## farmallmaniac

Lattice Lattice Lattice  
Ryan


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## guest

> _Originally posted by Chipmaker _
> *now where are you gonna get that semi truck load of sakrete or quickrete in and start hand mixing your driveway?  *



oh my back... i think ill stick to one block at a time !!! thank you...



to be honest it was not that bad.. 720 lbs sounded like a lot but it was hharder lugging the bags around than mixing & doing the cement...


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## Live Oak

That turned out real nice SJ! You do nice work! :thumbsup:


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## Chipmaker

> _Originally posted by simple_john _
> *oh my back... i think ill stick to one block at a time !!! thank you...
> 
> 
> 
> to be honest it was not that bad.. 720 lbs sounded like a lot but it was hharder lugging the bags around than mixing & doing the cement... *


I know what you mean by lugging those bags around. One time I was certainly not thinkin g clearly, and picked up 40 bags of 80# concrete mix and had it loaded on the pallet on to my pickup truck. Planed on putting in a long run of chain link and had the holes dug, and wanted to set them in concrete the next day so by the weekend I could pull the fencing. IO have a short bed extended cab pickup with an extra wide accross the bed toolbox, so most of my load is carried directly on or behind the rear wheels. Truck went way down, about 1/2 inch until it would bottom out. I figured take it slow and easy, so I went with it. Well just a bit down the road it all had to be redistributed. I piled a bunch on the tool box lid and strapped it down. Loaded up the front passenger floor board as well as the seat, and even managed to stuff a few bags under my feet on the driver side floor board as well. Had a heap of stuff behind the seats so that area except for a few bags was out of question. Truck finally balanced out a bit but it owuld have passed for a low rider thats for sure. If you think those 80# bags are heavy you should fool around with the 100# bags of Olivine foundry sand I use. Its 170 mesh which is finer than most sugar is and its almost like flour, and the bags are about as large as a 50 pound bag of cattle or horse feed would be. Being that fine that whole bag is like trying to lift a dead or unconscious body around. Its a real bear. After handling about 10 or 12 of em I am whipped!


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## guest

chip time for you to whip yourself up a trailer for pulling that cement......


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