# fel build



## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

I built a fel for my Craftsman DGT 6000 this spring and went with the linear actuators (poor choice) but they are painfully slow and under powered. Now working on switching to hydraulics which I wish had been my first move. Cylinders are likely going to be 2x16 for lift and 2x14 for the bucket. I am considering mounting a Chief Gear pump with 0.62 CID, 4.8 GPM @ 2000 RPM, 3600 PSI with a CCW rotation from tractor supply to the top of the crank under the hood and the tank behind the seat (extra weight there is always a good thing right?). Wondering if this is a good choice. Also would like to know if a 2 spool valve that operates at 11 GPM will work. Appreciate any help.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Welcome to the forum! Nice job on the loader. Keep us up to date on your refit.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Kenneth B Brown said:


> I built a fel for my Craftsman DGT 6000 this spring and went with the linear actuators (poor choice) but they are painfully slow and under powered. Now working on switching to hydraulics which I wish had been my first move. Cylinders are likely going to be 2x16 for lift and 2x14 for the bucket. I am considering mounting a Chief Gear pump with 0.62 CID, 4.8 GPM @ 2000 RPM, 3600 PSI with a CCW rotation from tractor supply to the top of the crank under the hood and the tank behind the seat (extra weight there is always a good thing right?). Wondering if this is a good choice. Also would like to know if a 2 spool valve that operates at 11 GPM will work. Appreciate any help.


Most small engine are rated to run at 3600 rpm. That would be almost 10 gpm so an 11gpm valve would be about right, and I think the pump can spin 3600rpm, double check that.
2000 psi x 0.62 cu-in per rev = close to 17 ft-lbs of torque. your engine has more than e.ough for that. You could probably go bigger if you wanted as well. If you hit more pressure, the torque requirements go up as well.

2" cylinder = 6200lbs of force at 2000 psi
3" cylinder = 14000lbs of force at 2000 psi

are you tabs and arms up to that?

I'd want the pump inlet below the tanks so it gravity feed, and would get more filtration than a nut and bolt catcher.

Edit, fixed my math error.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Groo said:


> Most small engine are rated to run at 3600 rpm. That would be almost 10 gpm so an 11gpm valve would be about right, and I think the pump can spin 3600rpm, double check that.
> 2000 psi x 0.62 cu-in per rev = close to 17 ft-lbs of torque. your engine has more than e.ough for that. You could probably go bigger if you wanted as well. If you hit more pressure, the torque requirements go up as well.
> 
> 2" cylinder = 3100lbs of force at 2000 psi
> ...


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Groo,

Thanks for the feedback. I am not the worlds best welder, but not bad at it either, and I think I over did most of the tabs and arm construction, should be good to go there.

I decided on a nortrac pump that is in fact good for 3600 rpm, and has a flow rate of 4 GPM @ 2000 rpm. I am using the cylinders and control valve mentioned above. I have in fact decided to mount the pump under the tractor and power it off of the electric pto clutch and drive it with a belt so it will be gravity fed.

if it's not evident, this is my first attempt using and installing hydraulics on anything, does the adjustable pressure setting on the valve control take the place of a relief valve or work in conjunction with it?

Also wondering about plumbing in this pump. It is bi-rotational. Everything I have seen so far says inlet on one side outlet on the other. Pump has one opening on each side and two on end opposite the shaft. VERY LIMITED pump data, but what I have says, larger openings on sides are inlet and smaller openings on back/top are for outlet. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. the pump is a nortrac P/N 47359 from Northern Tool.

Thanks again


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

this one?
https://www.northerntool.com/images/downloads/manuals/47359.pdf

gear pumps can be run either way, but the bearings and whatnot might like being run backwards (doesn't look to be the case with the nortac). Generally 1 opening will be bigger. that is the inlet (this is the case with the nortrac). You might possibly need to disassemble and reassemble it to get it going the correct way (I'd probably flip it in your shoes. once is it sucking through the inlet, just rotate it if you want the suction on the other side). the way a gear pump works is the fluid is forced around the outside of the gears. this is a bit counter-intuitive. if you stuck a thin string into the outlet of a gear pump, it would be drawn into the meshing gears.




one gear is driven by the shaft, the other is force to move via the gears meshing.

I'd do a return line filter is you want longevity. https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200675165_200675165
Stick it between the valve's tank port and the tank.

I would make sure all components (hoses and cylinders) are up to the pump's pressure rating, that way if you need more power down the road, you just turn up the relief on the valve. This is the main system relief. you will also want a pressure port on the high pressure line or maybe a port on the valve intended for it, and a gauge to set pressures.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Yes, that is the pump. I was just a bit confused by the 4 openings if only two are really needed. I will probably use the larger side inlet and smaller backside outlet in my application running the pump in a ccw rotation. Is there any reason a pump lie this will not run well being belt driven? I want to mount it under the tractor running off the electric pto. the pulleys will be the same size so as not to increase or decrease rpm at the pump.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

I didn't even catch the 4 port thing. You are going to have to block off 1 inlet and 1 outlet.

Eta: it probably comes with 2 steel plugs installed and 2 plastic dust covers in the 2 other porte.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Maybe in the good ol days...now just with 4 plastic dust covers.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Kenneth B Brown said:


> Maybe in the good ol days...now just with 4 plastic dust covers.


Maybe with this cheap garbage (not that it won't be perfectly fine and I would use the same class myself for a project like this) but the higher end components would definitely come with minimum required number of actual plugs. I expect this will as well.


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## TX MX5200 (May 12, 2020)

Wow....awesome project. Way over my head, but following to see end result. Amazing what some people can accomplish...I'm finally learning to weld after acquiring an old tombstone lincoln stick welder I went thru to get working.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

thanks...I always say that if someone else did it, why not me? Keep at it with the welder and you'll get there. I found that the amount of it needed for a project like this gave me the practice necessary to really improve my skills. And hey my grandfather used to tell me..."a grinder and paint will make you the welder you ain't"


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Groo, I Finally got it all assembled and plumbed up with hoses. I filled the 5 gal tank and let it gravity feed the pump. I started the engine and turned on the electric pto running the pump. it ran for approx. 2-3 minutes but I got no movement from the cylinders. How long should it take to build pressure and do I need to bleed air from the cylinders? I shut it down until I could get more information. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Should get motion in a couple seconds. Are you sure oil is getting to the pump. Is it running backwards? Any bubbles in the tank?

Maybe post up some pics.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Where I have heard of air locking is when air was keeping the oil from getting to the pump. Cracking the pressure side hose cleared that up, but I'm not sure that is what is going here.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

I spent the day fixing a stupid mistake. Last week after being very careful to have the pump direction-ally correct I had to remove it to fabricate a support brace and I guess when I reinstalled it I put in in backwards. This was before I had connected and routed all the hoses of course. So when I tried to run it the other day...no hydraulics...go figure! So today the fun job of undoing and redoing the work to remove it - turn it around - reinstall. Anything worth doing is worth doing twice...er something like that. Learned a valuable lesson anyway. While I had it out I saw a small plastic cap on top of the pump. I peeled it out to discover a threaded hole. cap was only a pressure fit. Schematic says it is the drainage port? Anyway off tomorrow to try and find a 9/16-18 bolt or plug to cap it before I try another trial run...I 'm guessing if it had built pressure it probably would have blown Hyd. fluid everywhere.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

That is most likely a #6 O-RingBase. I would assume just sticking a bold in there without the o-ring, it would leak.
https://www.shopcross.com/parker-6-...2513hx88JSydeXlFefg8mqSORG5sLCbAaAizvEALw_wcB
not the best price on-line, but it shows a picture and the tread spec.

a short bolt would be fine for testing. I wouldn't assume any significant pressure from a case drain. It probably connects to the inlet.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Thanks Groo, The cylinders I am using have ports that are #6 SAE w/ o-ring and one of them came with steel plugs (other two with plastic ones) may see if that fits in the morning. If not, at least now know where I can find one if not locally. I really appreciate the help you have been on this. I will post some pics when I get it working.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Groo, Turned out the schematic was incorrect. I found a 9/16"-18 bolt and it was too large just as the #6 SAE plug was. I purchased a 1/2"-20 bolt just for kicks and giggles and it threaded right in. I cut it off to 5/8" in length, put a nylon washer on it then an o-ring and it made a sufficient plug for the drainage port. Once that was in I was able to put fluid in it again and fire it up. It exceeds my expectations!!! it is fast and responsive! I finally own my own loader. Thanks again for all your help, I truly appreciate it.


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## Clifford B. (Nov 20, 2019)

Pics, or it didn't happen !!! .......


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## Phil B (Jun 11, 2020)

Very cool. If you were nearby, I'd come and look at it. I've always wanted an fel on a garden tractor. Got a ballpark figure on the total cost of the fel and the hydraulics?


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

absolutely...pics coming soon. Only had an hour to work on it today.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Phil, Yes I do have ball park figures. FEL materials were about $400 including all of the hardware I needed and the steel. I made the $600 mistake of using electric actuators the first go round so those are now in the "thinking of projects for these" pile in my shop. ( I only mention this to discourage others from doing the same, unless you like things that work agonizingly slow and are under powered) Refit with Hydraulics was about $1000 for everything. So all together not including the elec. actuators about $1400. I bought the Craftsman DGT 6000 off craigslist for $350 but had to change the head gaskets before it was usable for anything except mosquito control So I guess all told I have about $1750-1800 in it SO FAR! Along with maybe 150 hrs shop time...but that's just having fun, right? I still want to fill rear tires with fluid for more counterweight and make roll over protection for it with led lights on it. I also plan to take the 48" deck that came on it and make a pull behind finish mower to use with it.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Kenneth B Brown said:


> Groo, Turned out the schematic was incorrect. I found a 9/16"-18 bolt and it was too large just as the #6 SAE plug was. I purchased a 1/2"-20 bolt just for kicks and giggles and it threaded right in. I cut it off to 5/8" in length, put a nylon washer on it then an o-ring and it made a sufficient plug for the drainage port. Once that was in I was able to put fluid in it again and fire it up. It exceeds my expectations!!! it is fast and responsive! I finally own my own loader. Thanks again for all your help, I truly appreciate it.


I don't think I've ever seen a #5 fitting before, or any odd number to think of it.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Well here they are, the pictures of the fel up and running. Hydraulics work great! I am very pleased with the outcome. Shout out to Groo who helped set me strait on several hydraulics questions...he was very helpful. Still much to do...plans for a ROP bar with led's, and a tow behind finish mower utilizing the original 48" belly mower. Probably going to mount a 2500 lb winch on the back as well for dragging things around.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Nice hose routing. That can be a real pain to get right. I would suggest looking at all the hidden hoses for signs of rubbing after a few hours of running.

Keep us informed as to how the single curl cylinder works out.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

Groo, I had a fitting on one of lift cylinders get bent due to it hitting the hood when it was extended and raised up a few inches. It began leaking and so I had to do some re-routing of lines to solve the problem. I also turned the cylinders over so the ports were on the bottom and that really helped with clearance. My problem now is that as I was putting the pins back in the cyls I noticed I had fluid spraying out at the pump. it is not coming from a plug or port. seems as though it is coming from shaft. The loader has been used less than an hour, and pump was brand new when installed. Any thoughts or ideas? this thing is going to be a real pain to pull back out...but don't see that I have a choice. I appreciate any guidance you can give.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

I've seen shaft seals leak from pressure spikes to the inlet or over-pressurization. Do you have a gauge to set your relief pressures?
The pump is normally the weak link in a hydraulic system because; naturally the most expensive part is going to be the weak link.

might need to drain the case drain port (the one you put the short bolt int) to tank. I'm surprised it wouldn't just be routed to the inlet though.
did the pump come with literature? I am going to guess that is your problem, and you might even "save" the pump by plumbing it. it should be fairly low flow and low pressure. once pressure built is squeaked past the seal.

I really have spent much time with the smaller pumps like that. 
a tandem 7.2 cu-inch version of this; https://www.permco.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/360-Tech-Spec-Brochure_10.17_2.0.pdf
is what I have spend most of my time working with. No case drain on it.


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## Kenneth B Brown (Jun 18, 2020)

I have not hooked up a pressure gauge to it yet. I can try to plumbing the case drain to the tank and see if that helps. The spec sheet you pulled up is the only literature supplied with the pump...so very little help there. Thanks for your suggestions. If I have to replace it, I will definitely use a better pump next time.


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