# Ford 420 Diesel starting *****



## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

This is the first time. If it doesn't work, I'll just delete your website. 
I changed the fuel filter element on 3 cyl. Diesel. I have worked on Diesels for the last 46 years. I have NEVER had an engine give me such a fit, to restart it. Even re-manufactured Diesels, with new or rebuilt pumps (Roosa Master), Hercules, Mercedes, Kobuta, Yanmar, Detroit (no injection pump) all started with some difficulty. About 45 years ago, I decided to experiment on my Detroit. When I changed the (2) fuel filters, I put an electric fuel pump (pulse) in the fuel line ahead of the filters and transfer pump. I disconnected the fuel return and ran a hose to a gallon jug. Turned it on, walked away for a bit, about an hour, then checked for air in the return line fuel. None, then start the engine. I found that it worked great on injection pumps. Remove return restrictor, if present, then turn on electric fuel pump. Let run until fuel flows out of injection fuel return port. Remove electric pump, put everything back to running condition, start engine, listen to the expensive hammering, heart stopping sounds that eventually, clear up as fuel lines to pencil nozzles rid themselves of air. 
Well, it took much longer than I anticipated, but the electric pump ran for about 3-4 hours, and I checked the return at the fuel cap neck. It did start, but I have been days on this one. I ended up buying a new fuel filter, complete, from Steiner, and was leery when I saw Turkey. The hexes are Metric, and the aluminum washer for the bleed off plug was damaged, from the underside of the hex. I chucked up in the lathe, faced it, undercut for 'O' ring, and made a new washer that allowed 0.015" crush. I have made many plugs, from scratch, or altered the existing plugs for 'O' rings. I'll try to send some attachments. That leak drove me nuts, because the fuel is so clear, it was hard to identify where the leak was. Well, I don't see anywhere to put attachments. If it does work, I am gone


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

I didn't have this much paper work on my security clearance, Wayne


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

I am about out of enthusiasm. good bye.


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

Is this the 3rd or 4th post? Wayne


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

5th or 10th?


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

Gone! Now I must wait 9 seconds to post?


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## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Hi Wayne welcome to the forum. You have 6 post up that I can see with no attachment. 
Thepumpguy is our go to guy for fuel pumps. You can PM him or wait to see if he will respond to your post. 
With your past experience and knowledge I bet you will both have interesting conversation. Some of us will try to help and in my case I will probably be learning something new.
Kik back and do share with us. We all love pictures and info.
Good luck


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

so what is the problem, can't start the engine or a fuel leak ??.
in the reply box in the middle, it says to "upload a file", file means just that or photos, if you use a desktop computer, it is easier to save your photo to desktop and upload from there.

You seem to be a man of much experience with diesel, so why the hassle ?.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Did you follow the manuals suggestion for bleeding the fuel system after replacing the fuel filter? Machining grooves for "O" rings....Seems a little excessive for changing the fuel filter?!?


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

U have a CAV DPA pump on that 420.??
There are a few things that cause a hard start on that piece of s***.lol.
1st is the fuel filter.. U HAVE TO put the oring UP IN the filter hsg.!! IT LOOKS LIKE it goes ON the filter but it doesn't.. IF U put it ON the filter, it chokes off the fuel..
2nd would be the filter INSIDE the pump inlet.. NOT an easy thing to clean but w/ your experience u should be able to do it NO PROBLEM.. just do a search on a DPA inlet filter..
3rd will be the head & rotor itself.. that's the main pumping unit.. where the lines hook to.. It wears out from dirt & contaminants & will leak internally & not deliver the fuel required to start the engine.. 
& of course, sucking air is always a biggie.. I'll sometimes use compressed air in the tank to find a leak.. cuz if its leaking.. its sucking air..
MOST of the Fords have a filter screen in the outlet fitting in the tank.. have u checked THAT.??
If u want to have the fuel system checked, give me a shout..


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Seems that Wayne Brotherton may have deleted our website address from his PC. Too bad he's missing an opportunity to meet and greet the knowledgeable folks we have here on this site.


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## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

As my grandma used to tell me all the time patience is a virtue slow down.


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## gman51 (Mar 22, 2016)

He didn't give much of a chance for someone here to help him.


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

thepumpguysc said:


> U have a CAV DPA pump on that 420.??
> There are a few things that cause a hard start on that piece of s***.lol.
> 1st is the fuel filter.. U HAVE TO put the oring UP IN the filter hsg.!! IT LOOKS LIKE it goes ON the filter but it doesn't.. IF U put it ON the filter, it chokes off the fuel..
> 2nd would be the filter INSIDE the pump inlet.. NOT an easy thing to clean but w/ your experience u should be able to do it NO PROBLEM.. just do a search on a DPA inlet filter..
> ...


Pump Guy, The fuel filter I got was complete, assembled by Turks, in Turk land. It replaced a CAV Lucas fuel filter that was a replacement in 1984. The bottom square section "O" ring was creeping out of the glass bowl, and slipped up the side of the filter. Easy enough, I have many square and round section "O" rings of various thicknesses and diameters. I located a 'just righter'. That solve an issue on the bottom of the filter, but another leak showed up, finally located at the plug for the 'bleed off'. How can that leak, "You query?" Well, a I tried to describe, I found (6) radial groves, scratches, whatever, and those groves ruined the aluminum 'sealing' (never liked the solid washers), providing an excellent avenue for air. The need for 400ft.pounds of torque required to get those solid washers to seal, even after they have been annealed, is not appropriate. My plugs seal at 3-5 pounds, don't come loose, and are much easier on the castings (Alum. or iron). I couldn't believe it leaked, as new, but it does not after my modifications (which have been so successful in the past). That then allowed me to put my electric fuel pump in, bleed all the air to the injection pump, crack a nozzle fuel nut, and walk away to better things. An hour or 2 later, I saw a bit of fuel at the nozzle, and at the return in the neck of the fuel tank. It fired up, almost immediately, sounded horrible, as usual until all of the air was out of the fuel lines from the injection pump. Sounds a lot like rod or main bearings, with a collapsed piston or (2) banging against the cylinder head, making my heart flutter.
Now to the advantages of living in the desert. Starting 46 years ago, draining fuel filters of the almost non-existent water, I have found a total of about 4 ounces, for all of my engines. We don't have condensation, the humidity runs about 5-6% down to most times 1%. Varnish is a much bigger problem than rust, or condensation. The fuel tank is cleaned, Gunk, soap and water, a big Milwaukee vacuum cleaner on blow, and stuff the hose in the fuel tank for about 20 minutes, at 105-110°, and it was dry. The screen had a varnish build up that blocked the flow of fuel except the very top portion. It is no longer a problem.
This 420 3 cylinder does not have a preheater (burning Diesel fuel in the intake manifold!!!), but it has always started very quickly, even after previous fuel filter changes. No ether! Hercules D196 4 cylinder has no starting aids, simply compression. I use (4) batteries, series/parallel for 24 volts. I hit the starter button, with the Roosa Master turned off, watch the oil pressure, when I see 20#, I turn the fuel injection on. It starts right up, very little smoke, and does so down to 15° (a killer around here, but very seldom), no ether. I found that little pearl in the Detroit Diesel Shop Manual, for 'cold starts' in very cold climates. Worked on Detroits, and has worked on everything else. I hope I have provided enough details. I must have a communication problem. You should read my 'Security Deposition Episode'! 
I have some pictures, but I will see if those e-mail goes. I keep a S&W 9mm next to my computers, generally it changes their attitude, or they are eliminated. Wayne


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)




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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

I don't have a lot of confidence in this e-mail/upload. If it doesn't satisfy, I know I'm not, go ahead and delete. Wayne Remember KISS.


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## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Pictures came out good Wayne. Interesting to see


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

So u found the problem..a mangled gasket & plug..
Most folks woulda just kept reefn on the plug till the threads stripped out..lol
Do u still have that Fasset Pump hooked up?? The DPA pump only requires 3 psi to run..
If that Fasset it putting out anything less than 10 psi your ok running it..
Any MORE than 10 & u stand a chance in blowing out the front seal..


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## Wayne Brotherton (Jul 14, 2019)

The Facet pump offers about 3-5 psi, good enough to push _some _fuel past the not sealed so completely mechanical fuel injection pump. I see you rebuild pumps. Some years ago, cleaning the pencil nozzles for a Mercedes 300D, I found that _ULTRA BRITE _tooth paste is an excellent abrasive for lapping the pintle valve. The 'cross drilled holes', in the tip, forget it. Mercedes has carbide drills small enough to clean the holes, about 0.015", as I remember. My extremely small bits, down to 0.010", are not carbide. Lapping with _ULTRA BRITE_ helped, but I replaced them a few years later. Have you ever tried it?
Somewhere in the long list of 'POSTS', I saw a remark about errors in the FORD tractor electrical. I have the full (4) volume FORD/NEW HOLLAND shop manuals for many Ford gasoline and Diesel tractors. Volume #1, pages 93 & 94, there are errors at pt. 10. It effects all of the following numbers to pt. 26. Not a crisis, (these are not complicated prints), when it is realized, but the nomenclature does not correspond to the print. Does anyone 'proofread' prints? I have noticed that the prints follow the practices of Joe. Lucas, Prince of Darkness. The colour code is give away. I cannot say that I have had more, nor have I had less trouble with LUCAS Electrics. And they have come out with some very interesting ignition systems. For example AC voltage, ET (Energy Transfer) system. No rectifier, no voltage regulator, not battery, but it had its quirks. Set up properly it functioned very good. If you don't recognize the name, I won't go any further than to tell you, "I liked the ET system, when everyone else hated it it."


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

I have heard of using "toothpaste" before.. I havent only because I have the proper lapping compound but u bet I would be looking for an alternative if I had too..
I tell u tho>> Out in the field ONCE I had to fix a stuck injector nozzle w/ no lapping compound.. & the shop was 2hrs away..
I used cig. ash's & a drop or 2 of oil.. It worked like a dream..
THE KEY THO IS>> a complete cleaning out of the parts..


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