# Steering while plowing in reverse advice needed



## TellGRBill

Hi, I have just purchased a V snowplow that is too heavy to mount on the front of my IH 674 farm tractor. I have designed and built reinforcements for the 3 point hitch on the rear of the tractor to handle this snowplow, and the abuse that plowing in reverse will put on the 3 point hitch points. I have plowed snow on a commercial basis for many years with tractors, and have used a snow blower on the rear of a tractor too. However, I would like to improve the tractors ease of steering while operating in reverse. This "new" snowplow will only be used, on the back of the tractor, when the snow conditions are such that the front plows are not able to handle the accumulated snow, so a permanent conversion is not needed. I will use this setup to plow many miles of alleys in the city off Grand Rapids, Michigan. When snow accumulates excessively, there is nowhere to put the snow except along the edges of the alleys, so a V plow is an advantage over a straight plow because it lifts the snow and keeps the plowing equipment going straight.
Any ideas on how to make steering easier for the driver when plowing in reverse?


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## Cannuck-elhead

> _Originally posted by TellGRBill _
> * Any ideas on how to make steering easier for the driver when plowing in reverse? *


Yeah, make a reverse facing seat like a 3pth backhoe uses and make up a reverse steering gear using the hydraulics to steer.

Why face backwards at all?

Of course IMHO it would be a whole bunch easier to use a ladder type sub-frame back to the draw bar at the rear to push the plow from, and a small hydraulic cylinder to raise & lower the plow onto dolly wheels like a pivoting trailer axle behind the plow blade.

That blade will be a LOT less work if it's sitting up on wheels an inch or so clear of the ground.

We did basically that with a plow like that on an old Dodge Power Wagon.


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## TellGRBill

Thanks for the suggestions. I thought about using dolly wheels, and I already use a under brace against the draw bar for our front plows. The advantage of the 3 point hitch connection is the added traction in snow when the plow is lifted, (even slightly) and the fact that I can lift the plow high enough to clear deep snow when I am not plowing.
I have some photos of the draw bar bracket brace I have made for the three point lift arm connections.


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## Cannuck-elhead

Based on our experience, I'd be surprised if that tractor would push that blade through deep snow, even with good chains.

By comparison, we use a 100hp 4wd to clear a private road / laneway through a forest with a similar plow. There's lots of times we have to make multiple passes to clear deep snows.

We are doing it now because the former contractor (using a single axle dump truck) was unable to clear it in heavy snows and had to call in a blower leaving the residents stranded, sometimes for days.


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## TellGRBill

*Plowing snow with tractor*

I appreciate your concern. We have been plowing alleys and sidewalks with farm tractors for several years and have been happy with their performance. I have a set of tire chains for the rear tires of this 674 IH tractor but have never had to put them on. We always have had extra weight on the rear when we plow using a front plow. 
With this "new" V plow the tractor will be carrying some of the weight of the plow when plowing, so it should provide the necessary weight for traction. The rear tires are loaded with chloride water to give extra traction weight. If necessary we can install the tire chains since there is plenty of room to run them.


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## chrpmaster

All I can say is that is a serious snow plow! My sister and her family live in Grand Rapids and I didn't realize they got that much snow. 

As far as comfort I don't think there is any safe way to turn the seat around and still control the tractor without major surgery on it. You would have to move all the steering and stopping controls to the rear to be at all safe. Especially in the city you never know when someone will pop out in front of you and with that big plow you will just run them over. Not sure how your insurance would react to "homemade" controls if that were to happen.

Andy


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## TellGRBill

Hi Andy, Grand Rapids doesn't normally get "that much snow" but I've been in the snowplowing business long enough to know that I have to be prepared. This plow is my "insurance" against getting more snow than my equipment can handle. It appears that the weather has become unstable on the earth (global warming) and I want to be prepared for at least what I have seen in my snowplowing career already. 

Besides, it's still fun to set up a super machine.  Especially when the cost isn't too high. We had a fun trip to New York and only spent $255. for the plow.


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## MFreund

> _Originally posted by TellGRBill _
> *Hi Andy, Grand Rapids doesn't normally get "that much snow" but I've been in the snowplowing business long enough to know that I have to be prepared. This plow is my "insurance" against getting more snow than my equipment can handle. It appears that the weather has become unstable on the earth (global warming) and I want to be prepared for at least what I have seen in my snowplowing career already.
> 
> Besides, it's still fun to set up a super machine.  Especially when the cost isn't too high. We had a fun trip to New York and only spent $255. for the plow. *


I am sure glad that "Global Warming" is settled science in Michigan. It sure saves the rest of us from having to figure it out.

I have a bridge you should buy before the polar caps melt and the whole world floods! After all you cannot be too prepared.


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## TellGRBill

Remember....I said that I want to be prepared for at least what I have seen in my snowplowing career already.

Besides, it's still fun to set up a super machine.  Especially when the cost isn't too high. We had a fun trip to New York and only spent $255. for the plow.


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## chrpmaster

Farmers Almanac says we are supposed to have a colder than normal winter in our area. Could mean more snow too. So being prepared is probably a good idea. 

Very cool looking plow setup TellGRBill. I bet you get some looks from people when you drive down the alleys with that thing! 

I can see where using larger farm tractors like that would work well in certain circumstances. Plenty of power, good visibility and traction. Plus it should take the abuse better than most plow trucks other than maybe the big highway dept sized ones. Plus as you said the price is right.

Andy


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## Cannuck-elhead

> _Originally posted by chrpmaster _
> * As far as comfort I don't think there is any safe way to turn the seat around and still control the tractor without major surgery on it. You would have to move all the steering and stopping controls to the rear to be at all safe.
> 
> Andy *


It's actually pretty easy to add a second steering setup to something with power steering, we've done several conversions. All the 'linkage' is hydraulics.

It's also very simple to rig up a second clutch, brake & throttle.

Past that it's just a matter of time to do it. LOL.


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## Cannuck-elhead

*Re: Plowing snow with tractor*



> _Originally posted by TellGRBill _
> *I appreciate your concern. We have been plowing alleys and sidewalks with farm tractors for several years and have been happy with their performance.
> I have a set of tire chains for the rear tires of this 674 IH tractor but have never had to put them on. We always have had extra weight on the rear when we plow using a front plow.
> 
> With this "new" V plow the tractor will be carrying some of the weight of the plow when plowing, so it should provide the necessary weight for traction. *


With all due respect Bill, I think you're missing a couple of big points in all of this.

First, and most importantly, this plow is designed to throw snow, not just push it. That is why the high sides, to guide the snow up and away from the road. This plow is designed to run at a speed of no less than 20mph, and no more than 50mph. At slow speeds the snow doesn't do this. The result is that a lot of the snow will build up on the blade, causing a LOT of extra weight, likely enough to lift the front of the tractor, drop the plow to the ground and make a BIG parking brake out of that blade.

Secondly, there's a BIG difference to pushing a heavy load frontwards or backwards. With the blade on the front and pushing forwards there is enough weight on the front end to maintain steering reasonably well. When you put a big load against this plow you are going to have almost no directional control. You are both putting effectively a a big rudder like a ship has out there, but you are unloading the steering axle.

I hope I'm wrong, but suspect I'm not, good luck with it either way.


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## TellGRBill

Dear Cannuck-elhead,
WOW, I hope that you're wrong too! 

I've been plowing with V plows for over 40 years and have never experienced what you have described....and I don't want to! Plowing at 15mph in a city alley is about the maximum speed that is possible and still be safe. 
I would expect that when this plow is used, it will lift and roll the snow over the banks that we have already built up along the edges of the alleys when plowing at about 6mph. I have experienced plowing deep snow with a V plow and not having good steering control in the past. Plowing a curved path is difficult. However, when plowing a straight path the V keeps you going straight. 
I had thought that if I lack front end weight causing the loss of steering control, I will mount the straight plow on the front for a counter balance, and also get additional cleanup ability.

Even after 40 years of plowing, every winter and new equipment brings a variation of experiences.

We'll see then the snow gets deep!
Thanks for your observations.


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## TellGRBill

*More photos and discussion about this project*

http://www.letstalksnow.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25415

If you would like to read more discussion and see more specific, detailed photos of the 3pt hookup of the V snowplow on this tractor's 3pt lift system, click on the link above.
The "letstalksnow" forum allows more photos to be posted in the reply function of the forum discussion.


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## Cannuck-elhead

Bill, you have one small battle won, your blade is off of a road grader, not a truck. That means it is designed for slightly slower speeds, 10 - 25mph so it should work better for you than I first thought.

I still think though you are going to have grief, and likely damage, pushing that much, that hard, in the wrong direction on the 3pth, reinforced or not.

The usual damage is that the lift arms will buckle, usually outwards, when the load exceeds a certain point. 

I wouldn't get excited about those springs either, they are designed to protect a 25 to 30,000 POUND road grader, not a 5,000 pound tractor. You will be launched out of the seat and over the plow before they ever budge.

BTW, that is another reason I wouldn't recommend reverse plowing. Any obstacle you catch will be whiplash waiting to happen. Facing forwards and sitting upright the seat belt and your body (bending over) will work to absorb much of the impact without to much issue.

Your tractor appears to be mostly setup to take this on the front anyways. Seems a lot safer for so many reasons to me.


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## TellGRBill

*"Whiplash waiting to happen"*

That's what I like about this forum, many minds can see more issues than one alone. I had not thought of the whip lash issue yet but I'll take it seriously. 
One advantage for me with this plow is that I don't plan to use it until there is a lot of snow that has already been plowed along the edges of the alleys. Also snow will have been packed down by traffic which smooths out the alley surface, covering breaks in the concrete. The city hardly ever spreads salt in the alleys!! By the time that we use a V plow, most of the obstacles will have been covered by packed snow and ice making the plowing pretty smooth, EXCEPT FOR CURBS. With a V plow we stay FAR away from curbs!!! I have improved the ramped skid on the front of the plow to protect against solidly hitting obstacles with the point of the V.

I just heard from a specialist in converting farm tractors into reverse operation. After considering my particular tractor, he told me that, especially since I have a cab on this tractor, it would to prohibitively expensive to convert this tractor. 
Another forum user suggested that I install a large mirror to plow with on straight stretches of alley. Almost all our alleys are straight, so that may be a solution to help some of the plowing with this unit, if and when we have to use it.

Also, I am having my local International Harvester dealer review how I have set this up and tell me how they feel about the equipment / 3pth issues that have been raised.
Oh,...the lift arms line up with the push arms of the plow, so that there is hardly any side pressure on the two 3pth lift arms


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## Cannuck-elhead

Bill, a couple of points.

First off, I'm not sure you understood what I meant about bending the arms. I didn't mean the vertical alignment, I meant the fore/aft dimensions.

A 'standard' Cat. 2 hitch has the lower 2 arms ~32.75" wide, the arms, where they connect to the tractor itself, are probably only ~ 18" apart. This means the arms are in the shape of a trapezoid, they are not inline with the forces acting against them. This is what will cause the buckling.

Secondly, I'm not sure what this 'specialist' was envisioning, but like I said earlier, we've done several by doing nothing but using hydraulic power to move the steering left or right. 

We're not talking about going down the Interstate here, speed isn't an issue, the reaction time is still more than adequate.

I understand what you mean about the obstacles, and hope you're right.


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## TellGRBill

The specialist was envisioning moving the steering, clutch, brakes and fuel lever to the rear and repositioning the seat.


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## chrpmaster

I don't know about everyone else but I hope you post some action shots of this beast doing its thing. Maybe some video of this thing moving down the alley throwing snow off both sides. So cool!


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## TellGRBill

*Thanks for all the suggestions!!*

I would like to thank those who read, thought about, and made comments about our effort to mount a very large V snow plow to the back of a 60 hp diesel farm tractor to plow snow from city alleys while driving in reverse. Applying our effort to actually plow very deep snow, where our normal snowplowing equipment is having trouble performing, will be the ultimate test of our planning, designing, and constructing the plowing-in-reverse setup. 
Thanks 2COR517 for suggesting the mirror, it should save me some muscle pain. I have installed a school bus rear view mirror that can be pushed into a less blocking position when plowing and driving forward. I've backed a tractor with a large snow blower down narrow city sidewalks after a big snow storm successfully, so backing down the center of a straight alley that has banks of snow on both sides with a V plow should be very do-able when our other equipment can't get through without damage.
Several people stressed the need for additional weight on the front of the tractor, and suggested that carrying our normal front plow for a counter weight would make the vehicle too difficult to maneuver. Therefore, I have prepared the front of the tractor plow frame to carry two 150 pound cast iron elevator weights. The front tires are already filled with chloride water to add weight. 
Again, Thanks to all who commented!!:grinz
Oh...The people at my local International Harvester tractor dealer have reviewed the photos and approve how "we" did the setup.

See more photos at:http://www.letstalksnow.com/forums/showthread.php?p=250281#post250281


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## Cornhusker

Why not make a rear weight? I took an old 3pt bar and welded it to a steel box that I built out of angle iron. boxed it in with plywood and filled it with concrete. Volia! rear weight that can be picked up by a 3pt hitch!


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