# Anyone else have Starter issues with Kohler 22hp CV22s engine???



## kingja68156

Anyone else have Starter issues with Kohler 22hp CV22s engine???

My 1998 Craftsman GT5000 has went through 2 starters in 3 weeks. 

The original starter gear jammed in the engage posion.

The new starters armature wouldn't pickup the gear. I was able to free it up. Then when I tried to start it again, the gear engaged and started the tractor but the starter gear jammed in the up position and started grinding on the flywheel.

I quickly shut it off and removed the starter. It is jammed. Luckly it's under warrenty so I sent it back.

But my concern is if there is a bigger problem causing the starter to jam. The flywheel looks good(no broken teeth). I don't see any broken motor mounts either.....

Any advice would be great!!!

Jason


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## jhngardner367

*starter*

There are a few things to check.FIRST,and most important,remove the sparkplug(s),and roll the engine,by hand,and see if the flywheel isn't out-of-round,or if there's any wobble,or side-to-side play in it(indicates bad engine bearing).If it's good there,put the old starter on,and push the gear up,towards the flywheel,and check to see if it fits too tight(binding).If it seems to be binding,youcan add a .o05 shim to the bolts,between the starter,and the engine,and re-check the clearances.You can make the shims out of a tin can lid,if need be.Some starters are a tight fit,even new. Try to post a picture of the starter,if you can,so I can see which body style it has.That will help a lot.The second thing to do,is to make sure that it's thecorrect starter,for that engine.I've got three replacement starters that are being returned,because they're the wrong ones!Doesn't make my customers very happy,when that happens!


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## jhngardner367

P.S. Welcome to the forum!


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## kingja68156

jhngardner367 said:


> There are a few things to check.FIRST,and most important,remove the sparkplug(s),and roll the engine,by hand,and see if the flywheel isn't out-of-round,or if there's any wobble,or side-to-side play in it(indicates bad engine bearing).If it's good there,put the old starter on,and push the gear up,towards the flywheel,and check to see if it fits too tight(binding).If it seems to be binding,youcan add a .o05 shim to the bolts,between the starter,and the engine,and re-check the clearances.You can make the shims out of a tin can lid,if need be.Some starters are a tight fit,even new. Try to post a picture of the starter,if you can,so I can see which body style it has.That will help a lot.The second thing to do,is to make sure that it's thecorrect starter,for that engine.I've got three replacement starters that are being returned,because they're the wrong ones!Doesn't make my customers very happy,when that happens!



That makes sense.....I'll give that a try when I get the new one. Could I just use some washers as shims???


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## jhngardner367

Most washers are too thick,and would space the starter out TOO far.Add thin shims,one on each bolt,one at a time,until you can push the starter gear up,into engagement,and it returns,as soon as you release it.if it takes a lot of shims,then you have a problem with either the ring gear,or the flywheel,and it should be checked further.Has this engine ever backfired,or stopped instantly?


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## kingja68156

jhngardner367 said:


> Most washers are too thick,and would space the starter out TOO far.Add thin shims,one on each bolt,one at a time,until you can push the starter gear up,into engagement,and it returns,as soon as you release it.if it takes a lot of shims,then you have a problem with either the ring gear,or the flywheel,and it should be checked further.Has this engine ever backfired,or stopped instantly?


No backfiring....It has been 12 solid years of use. The engine sounds great!!!!


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## kingja68156

kingja68156 said:


> That makes sense.....I'll give that a try when I get the new one. Could I just use some washers as shims???


Ok...quick question on the shims. 

I'm thinking I need to put them on the bolts that go into the block....is that right? Or do I need to put them on the armature on the starter?

Are the shims to pick up the starter gear higher or keep more space between the teeth???

I hope that makes sense.

Jason


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## Mickey

There are 2 different design starters used for this engine. One the Bendix type where inertia is use to force the starter gear to move in/out and the design that uses the solenoid to move the starter gear in/out.

From your comments it appears your starter is the Bendix design. With this design one needs to make sure the gear is free to move in both directions. That mean NO grease or oil that can collect dirt and gum up the works. There is the possibility there is something physically causing the binding and that has been covered pretty well by jhngardner. Since this is an older engine and has been working fine for yrs, one needs to locate what has changed to cause the binding.


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## jhngardner367

Put them between the starter,and the engine block.This will give more clearance between the teeth,and hopefully stop the binding.I could do better at diagnosing it, though,if you had pics of the starter,and how it mounts,on the engine.


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## jhngardner367

Hey,Jason,do you have the engine numbers? I can't beleive I haven't asked this,earlier!


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## kingja68156

Cv22s 75534. The starter does not have a selinoid. Its a single unit.


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## Mickey

kingja68156 said:


> Cv22s 75534. The starter does not have a selinoid. Its a single unit.


As I thought and said.  IF you have to change starters again, you might want to give thought about swapping the starter over to the other design. With that design starter motor doesn't get energized until starter is fully engaged with flywheel.


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## jhngardner367

Sorry,Mickey,but according to the kohler reps,and the local dealer,the starters with the solenoids are for the horizontal-shaft engine(e.g.CH22 series),and even though they may bolt up,it's NOT reccommended.The cv22s,is a vetical-shaft command series,and only has the centrifugal starter.The starter pinion gear should have 10 teeth,so check that,to make sure it's correct.if so,add the shims to the bolts,between the starter,and the block,and test it each time,as I explained earlier.


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## kingja68156

jhngardner367 said:


> Sorry,Mickey,but according to the kohler reps,and the local dealer,the starters with the solenoids are for the horizontal-shaft engine(e.g.CH22 series),and even though they may bolt up,it's NOT reccommended.The cv22s,is a vetical-shaft command series,and only has the centrifugal starter.The starter pinion gear should have 10 teeth,so check that,to make sure it's correct.if so,add the shims to the bolts,between the starter,and the block,and test it each time,as I explained earlier.


Thank You very much for all this info....

Here is my last question....maybe 

Here is a link to the starter I purchased; SCOTTS LAWN TRACTOR S2348 STARTER KOHLER 23HP | eBay

And attached is the exploded view of my starter;

*I DO NOT HAVE PART #2 OR #4*

Do you think these part could cause my issue??? 

#4 doesn’t seem to be a shim as it is not installed on the engine block side of the starter.

#2 seems to be just a shield. I called the eBay seller and he stated that the starter has the shield already built on.....I don't see it in the pictures.

Thanks again for everyone’s help. I’m just an IT guy, not a mechanic.

Jason


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## jhngardner367

#2 is a guide/holder for the cover that fits over the starter gear,and # 2 is a lock washer. The guide/holder is not actually needed,but it does help keep debris out..as well as a misplaced finger!


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## jhngardner367

Jason,how did you come up with the scotts #,for a craftsman?The starter for the scotts,looks like it has more than 10 teeth,on the gear.Better double-check it.If you have the original starter,look at it,and compare the length,# of teeth,whether it has a metal gear,or a plastic gear. Also,see if there's a # on the scotts starter, like this:2509807.Let me know .


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## Mickey

jhngardner367 said:


> Sorry,Mickey,but according to the kohler reps,and the local dealer,the starters with the solenoids are for the horizontal-shaft engine(e.g.CH22 series),and even though they may bolt up,it's NOT reccommended.The cv22s,is a vetical-shaft command series,and only has the centrifugal starter.The starter pinion gear should have 10 teeth,so check that,to make sure it's correct.if so,add the shims to the bolts,between the starter,and the block,and test it each time,as I explained earlier.


Since I've never owned or worked on an LT/GT with a vert shaft engine (have a personal bias against them) I don't have any experience in that area. But, before making my first post I did look up the engine and found an exploded diagram and the other design starter was shown. Would be interested in knowing why that starter isn't recommended.


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## jhngardner367

Don't know,Mickey.All they said was that they were for the horizontal shaft engines.Weird part is,on 2 sights,I visited,they DID list the solenoid type for a cv22s,as well as the cH22s ! All the ones I've had here,used the non= solenoid type .D'you think it could be an update ?


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## Mickey

Don't know if its an update or not. P/N for my starter is/was KH-25-098-08-S. Know that P/N has been superseded a couple times and now think the P/N has an 11 in place of the 08. You could look at the site where you see this starter and get some idea how long this starter have been available for the vert shaft engines by checking the P/N. My Cub is an 03 model.


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## Country Boy

Have you tried using an OEM Kohler starter? I have found over the years at the shop that sometimes aftermarket stuff just doesn't fit quite right. Sometimes trying to save a few dollars costs you money and headaches in the long run.


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## Mickey

In this thread there has been some discussion on which kind of starters are available on the Kohler vert shaft engines. Looking through a cat last night I ran across these 2 engines. As can been seen, both have the starter with attached solenoid.


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## kingja68156

I logged into the Kohler Engines website and searched for the factory starter. The one they refrence is "NOT" with attached solenoid. 

PBS Net-Compass


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## Mickey

My last comment was in response to post #13 and a couple follow-ons. "Starter with solenoid is for horiz engines." I was just pointing out the fact this starter comes on several vert shaft engines as well. Nothing to do specifically with the starter your engine came with.

My suggestion to change starter types was just an alt approach, i.e. food for thought.

Think you still need to determine why with the original starter things work well for a long time, then starter started giving you problems then replacement starters also presented problems. You need to find out what has changed and address that issue.

Do hope you can determine real cause and get it corrected.


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## kingja68156

So I got the new starter in today. I took the flywheel off cover off to make sure I have the correct spacing. I did have to shim it.....and thats where my issue begins.

I have shimmed it on both bolts (kick back when disengaging every time)

left bolt (Same thing)

and right bolt. (right bolt is closest to flywheel)(Same thing). 

I have also put two shims on both bolts but that was too far out. (slipping)

So right now, I have two shims on the right bolt only. That seems to be the best of the worst....but here is the problem. I'm getting kick back when disengaging the starter once the engine starts. It doesn't happen every time now, but I'd like to get it perfect. If I leave it like this I'll be getting a new starter once a year.

I can't imagine cocking the starter more by putting more shims on the right bolt. Any advice????

I've checked the flywheel...there is no wobble or missing teeth.


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## Country Boy

What do you mean by "kick back"? Could your engine be a bit out of time (flywheel key partially sheared), causing issues when starting? Does that engine have the Smart Spark system on it? Those have been known to cause issues with ignition timing.


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## jhngardner367

*starter*

My Apologies,Mickey,I stand corrected.As for the problem at hand,I have to agree with Country Boy.You say,now, that it's getting "kickback".Was it doing that,before,as well? As CB stated,that would indicate a different cause. A severe enough kickback COULD cause the pinion gear to be "trapped"by the ring gear,and rip it up!I just changed the starter on a CV491 kohler,as well as the battery.The owner bought a cheaper,less powerfull battery,and it didn't have the amperage to keep the cranking speed up,so it kicked back,and tore up the pinion gear.


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## Country Boy

We have a Craftsman GT5000 at work that we just traded in with a Kohler Command 25 engine on it (didn't have a chance to grab the spec number) that has the starter with the built in solenoid on it. Its a vertical shaft engine. Tractor is a 2004 or 2005 model.


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## kingja68156

When I say kickback I mean, once the engine starts and the ring gear takes off, it's almost like the pinion gear doesn’t get out of the way fast enough and grinds the ring gear for a split second.

Sometimes it works great with no issues and other times I get "kickback"/grinding.

Sometimes when the starter goes to engage the ring gear they just seize together. I then have turn the key back and start again.

I’m just going to order a new factor Kohler starter. I have already ordered a new solenoid just in case that’s the issue. The battery is getting 12.4 volts so I don’t think that’s the issue.


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## jhngardner367

Put a volt meter on the terminals of the battery,and try to roll the engine.as it rolls over,check the voltage.if it drops below 11.9v,the battery isn't strong enough.Most engines of 12 + hp,should have a high cca rating,or they just can't spin fast enough to kick out the pinion gear,when the engine starts.


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## kingja68156

That makes sense. I'll test the battery today. 

Thanks


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## faairhope

*starter problems*

I have a kohler courage 22 engine on my mower and the starter will not crank the engine. checked the siliond and the battery. Does this engine have a compression release or is the starter bad.


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## faairhope

*starter problems*

I have problems with my kohler courage 22 starting. Does the engine have a compression release or is my starter bad?


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## Country Boy

The starter could be bad, or it could be some other issue. Have you tried disconnecting any drive belts or shafts connected to the engine to see if that resolves the starting issue? Can you turn the engine over by hand or is it seized? Have you tried jumping from the + terminal on the battery to the terminal on the starter to bypass any wiring issues? Does the starter even engage, does it make an attempt to turn the engine over but seem weak, or does it just do nothing?


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