# Liquid Filled Tires



## bosshogg

I just purchased a Kubota L3400, via long distance. I have discovered the rear tires are filled with fluid and I mean filled. Since I was exploring the possibility of filling them this has saved me some serious dollars.

Anyone want to try to explain how I can tell what type of fluid or additive that was used?


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## Thomas

Iam useing beet juice..kinda redish dye.


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## PSJ

Hard to tell as there are various ideas out there that folks are using. If possible, Id contact the previous owner and ask him. I don't use fluid in my tires, I use wheel weights. My dads old Farmall A needs new rims on the back because calcium chloride ate the rims up along with the valve stem cores. Stay away from anything that has a corrosive compound in it. JMHO. PJ


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## MBTRAC

Only as a last resort would I liquid ballast tyres & only when absolutely unavoidable, whilst many still hold the traditional view of tyre ballasting & we too previously (for generations) used liquid tyre ballasting with straight rain water only in our 16hp - 550hp tractors.

Instead,where possible go for cast "suitcase" or wheel weights, or front/side/rear mounted saddle tanks - under controlled test conditions ( by OEM's) for every 45-60 seconds operation for equivalent operation/ballasted tractors, the tyre ballasted tractor will be at least 1 tractor length behind the one carrying cast weights - the reason being, liquid filling of tyres continually exterts internal rolling resistant & friction by the liquid trying to return to its level counter to the rotation of the tyre..... liquid ballasting tyres saps engine power/unnecessarily loads the driveline & decreases tractor efficiency, & considerably increases operating hours, driveline & implement wear, fuel usage, soil compaction...etc. 

Always match extra ballast & tractor weight to the application, get it wrong you'll overload the machine & at best increase axle, tyre, diff & gearbox, clutch wear, or worst case severely damage/wreck these components - all tractors need a minor element of wheel "slip" available in severe applications to prevent driveline overload. 

And if you're staying with liquid filling tyres, it all depends on the tractor, axles loadings, tyres size & extra front/wheel weights or tanks fitted, & the application...etc... generally only to a a max. of c. 25-40% so not to exceed the max. tyre load rating or tractor weight.


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## rubberfish

bosshogg said:


> Anyone want to try to explain how I can tell what type of fluid or additive that was used?


Rotate the tire until the valve stem is anywhere other
than 12 o'clock. If it's up top then only air may come out
Push the valve and see what comes out.
green=antifreeze. blue=washer fluid. etc.


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## Country Boy

MBTRAC said:


> Only as a last resort would I liquid ballast tyres & only when absolutely unavoidable, whilst many still hold the traditional view of tyre ballasting & we too previously (for generations) used liquid tyre ballasting with straight rain water only in our 16hp - 550hp tractors.
> 
> Instead,where possible go for cast "suitcase" or wheel weights, or front/side/rear mounted saddle tanks - under controlled test conditions ( by OEM's) for every 45-60 seconds operation for equivalent operation/ballasted tractors, the tyre ballasted tractor will be at least 1 tractor length behind the one carrying cast weights - the reason being, liquid filling of tyres continually exterts internal rolling resistant & friction by the liquid trying to return to its level counter to the rotation of the tyre..... liquid ballasting tyres saps engine power/unnecessarily loads the driveline & decreases tractor efficiency, & considerably increases operating hours, driveline & implement wear, fuel usage, soil compaction...etc.
> 
> Always match extra ballast & tractor weight to the application, get it wrong you'll overload the machine & at best increase axle, tyre, diff & gearbox, clutch wear, or worst case severely damage/wreck these components - all tractors need a minor element of wheel "slip" available in severe applications to prevent driveline overload.
> 
> And if you're staying with liquid filling tyres, it all depends on the tractor, axles loadings, tyres size & extra front/wheel weights or tanks fitted, & the application...etc... generally only to a a max. of c. 25-40% so not to exceed the max. tyre load rating or tractor weight.



In school, I was told the opposite. We had a farmer who brought his tractor in to the shop every few years with transmission troubles, so he finally brought it to the school and asked them to take a look at it. Turns out he had large cast iron weights on the rear hubs. We took them off and filled the tires with calcium Chloride to the proper ballast (you need less with CC than with metal weights) and his troubles disappeared. Instructor said cast iron weights on the rear hubs were bad because they increase load on the transmission and rear end. He said to use fluid in the tires or suitcase weights as the tractor permitted. Every tractor I have has Calcium Chloride in the rear tires to about 80% full except my Farmall H. Never had troubles with them rusting out the rear rims.


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## MBTRAC

Country Boy said:


> In school, I was told the opposite. We had a farmer who brought his tractor in to the shop every few years with transmission troubles, so he finally brought it to the school and asked them to take a look at it. Turns out he had large cast iron weights on the rear hubs. We took them off and filled the tires with calcium Chloride to the proper ballast (you need less with CC than with metal weights) and his troubles disappeared. Instructor said cast iron weights on the rear hubs were bad because they increase load on the transmission and rear end. He said to use fluid in the tires or suitcase weights as the tractor permitted. Every tractor I have has Calcium Chloride in the rear tires to about 80% full except my Farmall H. Never had troubles with them rusting out the rear rims.


Interesting CB, unsure on the "science" behind your instructors advice as I guess the same could be said of fitting duals/triples......anyways, always open to new learnings. 

Every so often we try to put the various "theories" around into "practice" to see what eventuates on our farms & if we have missed something & can pick up extra margin/efficiency from doing things differently. 
So as a comparasion we've run two identical Steiger CP1400's side by side since new (same mix of operators & operations on the same farm..etc) both running 400hp CAT3306's 12speed Powershift's:-
- TractorA using cast suitcase weights & ballast tanks @ 29832hrs running/samples fine & 1 X transmission rebuild, 1xrear dif & 1 front diff rebuild
- TractorB using only liquid tyre balllast @ 28,563hrs, 2 transmission rebuilds, 2xrear diff rebuilds + (compared to TractorA) life to date @ +4.3% higher fuel use & 1 extra set of tyres also is also using oil in motor 
Similar comparisons on our smaller gear have yielded similar results, the only noticable variance seems to be the difference is greater on tractors in higher constant torque/heavier applications like primary tillage tasks or breaking virgin ground.


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## bosshogg

rubberfish said:


> Rotate the tire until the valve stem is anywhere other
> than 12 o'clock. If it's up top then only air may come out
> Push the valve and see what comes out.
> green=antifreeze. blue=washer fluid. etc.


I have taken a sample and the fluid is almost clear with a light brown tint. Soaked some steel in it and let air dry...rust. Am soaking some steel in water and air drying and will compare. I have a strong suspicion it is calcium chloride. Weird thing is I have read on Goodyear site their is nothing wrong with CC and no undue rusting if the tires are properly filled. They are filled above the valve stem at 12:00 so perhaps in the absence of air rust will not occur? Would love to here some experience tire guy talk about his experiences with liquid ballast and rusting of the rims.


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## PSJ

Country Boy said:


> In school, I was told the opposite. We had a farmer who brought his tractor in to the shop every few years with transmission troubles, so he finally brought it to the school and asked them to take a look at it. Turns out he had large cast iron weights on the rear hubs. We took them off and filled the tires with calcium Chloride to the proper ballast (you need less with CC than with metal weights) and his troubles disappeared. Instructor said cast iron weights on the rear hubs were bad because they increase load on the transmission and rear end. He said to use fluid in the tires or suitcase weights as the tractor permitted. Every tractor I have has Calcium Chloride in the rear tires to about 80% full except my Farmall H. Never had troubles with them rusting out the rear rims.


I have no idea where he got that idea. I guess the tractor manufactures know nothing about their product! They spend millions of dollars calculating figures and testing their tractors to manufacture the proper wheel or other weights for their product. I guess your teacher knows more than they do. *I call that the Einstein **scenario, too much knowledge and no common sense!* 500 lbs of weight is the same wet or dry! Like saying, how much does a ton of feathers weigh compared to a ton of lead! Liquid filling tires is old school, as wheel weights or any kind of weights were rare for a couple reasons, they weren't made for many tractors back then and they cost too much money if they were. Water was cheaper and in the cold climates an anti freezing agent was used, thus calcium chloride which was also cheap back then. Were talking about a time when wood alcohol was the antifreeze used in radiators, that's all they had. Some people will not progress to modern times and think everyone else should think like they do. Are they cheap, stubborn, or just a know it all, who knows, but some people will never change. *You want to use calcium, use it,* *It's your dime!* Got on the first tractor when I was 6, I'm 72 now and still going strong, you figure how much knowledge can be aquired in that many years. No brag, just fact! PJ

And I still fly airplanes!


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## imager

Interesting discussion. I can see both sides having an advantage here. Physics theory would agree with the fluid filled tires having a possible advantage. The closer to the traction surface (tread to ground) you need less weight to gain traction. So to gain the same amount of traction with various frame mounted weights, you would need more weight. I can see that partial filled tires would have increased friction as the tire rotates would would require more energy (though how much more I do not know). I can also see that the more weight you have to carry also translates into increased energy. The advantage to external or frame weight is that you can remove or add as the situation dictates where as fluid weight is always there. A Lot of variables should also be considered in this discussion, location, soil type, temp extremes and type of use (farming, road maintenance etc.) involved. As for the rusting out of the rims, this can be caused by the wrong ratio mix, previous maintenance as well as the climate / location you are in. For example there is a lot more rust do to humidity and salt in the air in coastal areas that here in the mid west.
Just things to consider.


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## Country Boy

It was over 10 years ago that he told us about the tractor, but from what I remember it has something to do with the fact that the fluid can flow in the tire and that acts as sort of a shock absorber in the system, whereas a cast iron weight bolted to the rim is fixed and exerts a lot of torque on the system every time you start and stop. The farmer in question used to break teeth off his transmission gears every couple years, and after converting to fluid filled tires, he never had issues anymore. As I said before, we have all of our tractors except the Farmall H filled with fluid, and we have never had rims rust out because of it. All of them have tubes in the tires, and the fluid is contained in the tube, and therefore doesn't touch the rim. The 350 has had fluid in the rear tires for over 50 years with no problems. I've had rims rust out before on our 574, however that was from manure getting between the bead and tire, rusting the bead out. It was a loader tractor for 30 years and was run in manure regularly. We also went through several sets of front rims because of the same issue. 

Almost every tractor in my area has fluid filled tires, and I rarely see any ones with axle mounted weights. I'll see suitcase weights on the front end of tractors for ballast in heavy tillage operations to keep the front end down and to keep the front wheel assist pulling. Even the Versatile 485 that I used for chisel plowing didn't have wheel weights on it, instead using fluid in the tires and 120 suitcase weights divided between the front and rear. I've been on other farms in the area and I see axle weights sitting in the corner of the shed rusting away.


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## Country Boy

PSJ, weight is not equal. Do this experiment for me. Mount a tire and rim on a shaft through a pillow block with a crank on the other end so you can spin the tire. Put fluid in the tire and spin it up and then stop it. Then, drain said fluid and put an equivalent amount of cast iron weights on the rim. Now try to spin it and stop it. You'll notice one thing, that it is much harder to get the cast iron weighted tire spun up and stopped because it becomes one with the rim and increases its rolling mass. The fluid weighs down the tire, but it is free to flow in the tire and therefore isn't fully connected to it. Now imagine having a couple hundred horsepower and over 1,000 lbs of weight on there and think about the force exerted on the transmission every time you start and stop, or even turn a corner.


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## MBTRAC

Country Boy said:


> PSJ, weight is not equal. Do this experiment for me. Mount a tire and rim on a shaft through a pillow block with a crank on the other end so you can spin the tire. Put fluid in the tire and spin it up and then stop it. Then, drain said fluid and put an equivalent amount of cast iron weights on the rim. Now try to spin it and stop it. You'll notice one thing, that it is much harder to get the cast iron weighted tire spun up and stopped because it becomes one with the rim and increases its rolling mass. The fluid weighs down the tire, but it is free to flow in the tire and therefore isn't fully connected to it. Now imagine having a couple hundred horsepower and over 1,000 lbs of weight on there and think about the force exerted on the transmission every time you start and stop, or even turn a corner.


Thanks CB, this has been a good discussion & got us all thinking.

Now I've got my head around the "science" it makes sense now why axle weights have gone out of favour, all comes down to static load & rolling resistance - we still have a few sets fitted to our old 30yr+ 150hp+ 2WD 's (as they have been since new & these "pensioners" don't accrue enough hrs anymore to justify the hassle of removing them), I also add liquid filled tyre ballast is also more forgiving to operator "inexperience/error".

The main reasons we have a preference to run cast suitcase weights &/or ballast tanks in our gear is based on our comparatives + the ease of adjusting weight to the operation/conditions, saves a lot of unnecessary compaction, improves fuel consumption & enables greater control over wheel slip/overall tractor wear - some of our tractors get moved around the farms a lot & could be operating on black soil >-sandy loam-> clay loams & everything in between, also makes transport weight more easily adjustable (& legal).


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## wrenchheadsauto

If you don't like calcuim cloride try Rim Guard www.rimguard.biz, we have sold a lot of it and no complaints yet. It will not rust your rims and adds a lot of weight.


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## urednecku

Country Boy said:


> PSJ, weight is not equal. Do this experiment for me. Mount a tire and rim on a shaft through a pillow block with a crank on the other end so you can spin the tire. Put fluid in the tire and spin it up and then stop it. Then, drain said fluid and put an equivalent amount of cast iron weights on the rim. Now try to spin it and stop it. You'll notice one thing, that it is much harder to get the cast iron weighted tire spun up and stopped because it becomes one with the rim and increases its rolling mass. The fluid weighs down the tire, but it is free to flow in the tire and therefore isn't fully connected to it. Now imagine having a couple hundred horsepower and over 1,000 lbs of weight on there and think about the force exerted on the transmission every time you start and stop, or even turn a corner.


In other words, the solid cast wheel weights act like a flywheel, like on a hay baler.


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## Bamabww

wrenchheadsauto said:


> If you don't like calcuim cloride try Rim Guard www.rimguard.biz, we have sold a lot of it and no complaints yet. It will not rust your rims and adds a lot of weight.


This is what the dealer put in my new JD CUT 4320.


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## rubberfish

Looks like a decent enough product.
They had nothing bad to say about washer fluid either.


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## PSJ

urednecku said:


> In other words, the solid cast wheel weights act like a flywheel, like on a hay baler.


I don't know what type of tractor you are running, but my tractors only go about 2 to 5 miles per hour when I'm using them. I don't drag race them, I plow, cut hay, mow pastures, cultivate and pull a disc harrow amongst other things. I've also pulled stumps, loaded cow $--t in the spreader, dug irrigation ditches and graded my lanes. Guess what! In 50 years, I've never broke an axle, striped lugs off the rims, blew an engine or transmission in any of my tractors. So, I don't know where your comming from Sonny, but past experience has taught me what I know, not a bunch of bull s--t from a know it all who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is a dumb ass! I don't give a damn whats written on paper or some collage grad engineer because he has a sheep skin hanging on the wall saying he's a know it all! You believe what you want, I believe in my 73 years and most of that has been hard work ranching and farming. To me, experience has been the best teacher. You can water your tires or even piss in them, I don't give a damn! I use wheel weights not water! And that ends it! PJ


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## bosshogg

PSJ said:


> I don't know what type of tractor you are running, but my tractors only go about 2 to 5 miles per hour when I'm using them. I don't drag race them, I plow, cut hay, mow pastures, cultivate and pull a disc harrow amongst other things. I've also pulled stumps, loaded cow $--t in the spreader, dug irrigation ditches and graded my lanes. Guess what! In 50 years, I've never broke an axle, striped lugs off the rims, blew an engine or transmission in any of my tractors. So, I don't know where your comming from Sonny, but past experience has taught me what I know, not a bunch of bull s--t from a know it all who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is a dumb ass! I don't give a damn whats written on paper or some collage grad engineer because he has a sheep skin hanging on the wall saying he's a know it all! You believe what you want, I believe in my 73 years and most of that has been hard work ranching and farming. To me, experience has been the best teacher. You can water your tires or even piss in them, I don't give a damn! I use wheel weights not water! And that ends it! PJ


You have to be a real riot at partys...lighten up Francis. If your not careful you might learn something.


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## urednecku

bosshogg said:


> You have to be a real riot at partys...lighten up Francis. If your not careful you might learn something.


I donno, sounds like the old dog done learned all the tricks he needs. Like naming somebody he never met "Sonny", & giving me a sheep-skin, when I never even petted a sheep! 
I just try to explain something in a different way for some to understand, & all of a sudden I'm drag racin' tractors!!
He keeps his tractor down under 5 mph, about where I bush-hog at. If I'm cuttin' hay, mine'll be around 6 to 8, tedding maybe 9 or 10 depending on the field. On the road to the other field I help hay, I do hold it down to about 17 mph.
As for experinece, My late Daddy passed away in Dec. '04, 17 days before he would have turned 82 years old, & ran water in his tractor tires all his life. (Well, once they had tires that would hold water.) I still run water in 'em. Lets see, I think that makes 90 years of hard work ranching and farming experience.
I use water, not weights, and that ends it!! :tractorsm:tractorsm


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## RC Wells

The clear tractor tire ballast fluid will be calcium chloride. Colored fluid will be one of the environmentally safe non-corrosive alternatives.

Water also works as a ballast, but does lead to rust and freezes in cold weather and can rupture a tire if run frozen. Water is what many farmers used for years until calcium chloride was available as an antifreeze.

Calcium chloride can corrode tubeless rims if the rim is not completely covered with solution (about 90 percent fill) when the tractor is parked. If the tractor has calcium chloride, just fill it up and run it. I have a John Deere R that is older than I am and has the original tires with calcium chloride, and is just now beginning to rust through the rim.

The other issue with calcium chloride is that you have to be very careful to check and fill air with the valve at the top, and always clear your pressure tester and any air valves once they have been exposed to the liquid solution or they will be ruined in a matter of hours.

I run the environmentally correct brown slop in my new tractors, but would not drain and refill one of my old ones with the new stuff until I lost all the calcium chloride due to a flat or such.


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## thirdroc17

Interesting thread. In my not so always humble opinion, driver tactics can play as big a role as anything. If the driver is prone to high rpm clutch dumping, as I did when pulling wheelies when younger, and sometimes not so young, he/she is going to put a much larger strain on the drive line than a low rpm start with a smooth engagement of the clutch, then bringing the rpms up to speed, regardless of extra type of weight used, or even none at all.

I've also never seen a wheel from a tire filled with calcium chloride not rusted all too heck, tube or not, regardless of fill level, nor a patch of grass that lived through a small leak in the same tire.

I've also found liquid filled tires very heavy and unruly whenever one needs to be dismounted from the tractor, as was the case of changing track width for plowing vs. chopping.

I also find pneumatic tires have a much better ride when filled with, well, pneumatic type air, as opposed to incompressible liquid.

Not to mention, the physics makes for a much better wheelie with wheel weights because of their flywheel affect.

So I always recommend wheel weights rather than filled tires. Others opinions can and will vary, which is fine. Others may prefer liquid for reasons more important to them. Which is fine. All I know is, I'm right. Well, in my mind at least... Cheers! :drinkin:


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## urednecku

thirdroc17 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Others opinions can and will vary, which is fine. Others may prefer liquid for reasons more important to them. Which is fine. All I know is, I'm right. Well, in my mind at least... Cheers! :drinkin:


You are exactly right. tiphat
What works in my situation might not work in yours. That's why they make so many different ways. :drinkin:


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## LostValley

*Old tractors*

Hi, was reading the discussion (argument?) on fluid vs. weights and noticed your list of gear. RIGHT ON! I too have quite a few operating rigs and the newest is 1978 case 580 extendahoe, 2nd owner, a bit loose but does the job, especially 4in1 front bucket. Oldest runner is 194? pre-war cat RD-4 that I got a flat on a few years back. Flat meaning I cranked a left and watched on set of tracks go elsewhere. Anyway, wanted to comment to one who also doesn't like spending a quarter million or so for a dayumm tractor. :dazed:

Peace, out, 
-marty


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## shona13

G'day bosshog .
A very interesting subject.
First May i suggest that we are all entitled to an opinion ,what works for me may not suit others and I will accept that, It also depends on Exactly what the tractor is used for be it Mowing the front lawn,Bushhogging Or the real heavy jobs that require 4x4 dual wheeled monsters.
Being born and brought up on a dairy farm in scotland tractors were very much part of life this included maintenance and repairs we could carry out without the specialist Mechanic,things like as discussed here ,water ballasted tyres they were always a problem we had nine David Brown tractors and two Masseys a 135 and a 178,I dont remember how many of the David Browns had water in the tyres maybe three or four but all the rest had cast centres on the rear of the tractor and if required had front weights added when required .

For those who have experienced both types of ballast I am sure they can tell between the two there is a distinctive difference in the Feel of a tractor comparing weights to water I always found water ballasted tyres to be a bit unpredictable Maybe the fact that the weight was somewhat mobile so I guess this would contribute to the different Feel , cast centres being the prefered option.

The post I find the most difficult to believe is the one from Country boy about the farmer breaking teeth of the transmission ,I cannot say in my 42 years as a specialist tractor repairer heard anything so ,for the want of a better word Stupid ,unless the tractor in question was an international they were known to be a bit on the weak side when it came to final drives.

I find it interesting that with all of this knowledge and experience on this thread the single most Important thing that has not been mentioned I will give you All a clue ,it has to do with the *Pneumatic Tyre*.
Tyre pressure: No matter what weight is put on a tyre it will do no good whatsoever if the tyre is over inflated, again depending on what job is being done the tyre pressure is the most critical.
For a tyre to function as intended the pressure is of utmost importance generally the Working Pressure of rear tyres should be between 8 PSI AND 12 PSI unless there is a SPECIAL NEED to go above these limits.
So back to the original question,Lets see if we can offer you an answer .

I would drain the unknown liquid from both tyres and refill with your chosen or recommended 
non freezing liquid,remember ,jack the wheel just of the ground and let all air out ,turn the valve to the TOP remove the valve body and fill till the liquid comes out of the valve ,remove the filling hose and Important let ALL the water drain out of the valve ,refit the valve core and reinflate the tyre same the other side and you are away.

Just an aside in most cases if you need to ballast a wheel the tractor you are using is to small for the job.
Happy Days .
Hutch.

P.S. Only teasing about Internationals:usa:


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## MBTRAC

shona13 said:


> G'day bosshog .
> A very interesting subject.
> 
> 
> :thumbsup: Thanks for lending the voice of reason, knowledge & experience - spot on, it all starts with correct tyre pressure & having right sized tractor for the task.......


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## thirdroc17

I beg your pardon, Hutch, but if you go 3 posts above yours, you WILL find someone mentioned that the tires in question are indeed pneumatic tires, and it HAS been mentioned...

I know this cause I said it! :lmao:


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## shona13

G'day thirdroc17.
A case in point ,although understood the fact that the pneumatic tyre" gives a better ride" no mention nor consideration given to the importance of tyre pressure!!!.
Hutch.


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## thirdroc17

Hey Hutch, ummmm, how about implied importance then? Although I referred to ride quality rather than footprint.. well, it would be related. Sort of. Kinda. Maybe??


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## rubberfish

shona13 said:


> if you need to ballast a wheel the tractor you are using is to small for the job.


Really? 
So just how big of a tractor am I supposed to get
so I could plow my driveway?


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## MBTRAC

rubberfish said:


> Really?
> So just how big of a tractor am I supposed to get
> so I could plow my driveway?


Suggest perhaps something about the size we're currently using for ploughing/seeding, it's definitely too small if you can't cover better than an acre/minute..........we just had to uprate the "next to new" Case STX535 to 575HP to achieve more than an acre/minute....as a mate of mine says: you know your tractor's big enough when it fills your shed & you've one of every colour - so with this advice, lots of shed space & less than an acre/minute coverage two of our old Steigers @ c.425hp are about to be sold........


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## rubberfish

About an acre a minute with one of those eh?
My driveway should be clear of all snow in 3.7 seconds.


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## jhngardner367

*my opinion*

I look at it this way: Each has their pros/cons. Wheel-weights must be removed to service the tire,or axle,etc. Ballast doesn't(unless the tire has to be dismounted).
Ballast will leak out,and have to be replaced,when a tire is punctured,and wheel weights don't.
Wheel weights can be a real PITA to install/remove, but ballast is pumped in/drained out.
I have one tractor(JD 317) with wheel weights,and another,(Simplicity 3314v),with filled tires. I replaced the tires on both,last year,and It was far worse installing/removing those weights ! Also,on the Simplicity, the rims were quite rusty,inside,and had to be cleaned/painted. When I put the tires on, I used tubes,and because one got cut,I removed it,to replace the tube/ballast. No rust .
For all of that, I will use the weights.


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## MBTRAC

rubberfish said:


> About an acre a minute with one of those eh?
> My driveway should be clear of all snow in 3.7 seconds.


And despite having heaps of ag gear, will still usually mow the house lawn with either an old JD LT155 or JD415 as my wife won't agree to let me use any of our bigger gear around the house (& I just can't justify the cost of newer ride ons/ZTR's against good s/h ag gear).........go figure...:dazed:


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