# Ball Joint Removal from Steering Cylinder Rod?



## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

I am trying to replace the seals in our Ford 3930 4-wheel-drive tractor's steering cylinder but I cannot get the ball joints unscrewed from the end of the steering cylinder rod. There's only a narrow space to fit a wrench onto the end of the cylinder rod where the ball joint meets it. Had to grind down a wrench to fit the slot. Weakened wrench won't hold while trying to turn the ball joint, which--according to the local Ford tractor service manager--is a left-hand thread. Apparently there is no tool for holding the cylinder rod. What do I try now???


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

A couple of questions:
How hot did you get the wrench when you ground it down?
If any part of it turned blue as you were grinding you likely annealed the steel and it's weaker now.
Are you looking to save the ball joint? If you are replacing it you could use heat to get the old one to loosen.
You might also look into buying a strap wrench. A strap wrench along with a non weakened open end wrench might do the job.
Lastly, a sharp impact might be required to break it loose


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Supposing it is an agricultural all purpose model, see attached pdf.

Edit
***
For the ball joints #51 and #52 the "LH" and "RH" are not referring to the 20mm thread, as you might think. It problaby means that #51 goes on the tractor's Left Hand side, and #52 goes on the tractor's Right Hand side. 


Clarification

On the tractor's Right Hand side:
Ball joint #52 (CAR49001, superseded by 48084964)
Stud that goes into the piston rod has M20x1.5 Right Hand thread.
Stud that goes into the outer ball joint has M18x1.5 Right Hand thread.

On the tractor's Left Hand side:
Ball joint #51 (CAR49006, superseded by 48084983)
Stud that goes into the piston rod has M20x1.5 Right Hand thread.
Stud that goes into the outer ball joint has M18x1.5 Left Hand thread.
***

The ball joints look like this:
https://intertraktor.pl/przegub-sil...y-ferguson-valtra-john-deere-case-p-1792.html


It is the same type that is used on many cars, and there you use a special tool and an impact gun:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Inner-Tie-...et-Crow-Foot-Adapter-Flat-Wrench/282760416091
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Inner+Tie+Rod+Tool+&t=ffab&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images


Just some thoughts:

A tool in this size is probably hard to find, and will be expensive. Perhaps you can find a crows foot wrench in the right size for a resonable cost.

You could make a tool for the impact gun, like this one:
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-crx-ef-civic-1988-1991-3/inner-tie-rod-removal-help-3140575/

Anyhow, the rod can be locked at removal by locking the ball joint on the other side.

Edit
***
Both ball joints are right hand threaded in the rod, so you turn anti-clockwise regardless which side you are standing at.
***

Heat can do good, if there is thread locker it softens with heat. Only heat the end of the rod, and do not go higher than needed, 230 °C (450 °F):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread-locking_fluid

You can try with pipe wrenches (one at each balljoint), but support the rod ends on pieces of wood on jack stands. Avoid bending actions on the rod, that can damage seals an other things inside the cylinder.


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

Hacke said:


> Supposing it is an agricultural all purpose model, see attached pdf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If he is replacing the ball joint, rather than buy the special tool I would sacrifice a cheap socket and weld it on then hit it with an impact gun.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Ultradog said:


> If he is replacing the ball joint, rather than buy the special tool I would sacrifice a cheap socket and weld it on then hit it with an impact gun.


I did not mention welding on purpose. Heat and ball joints can be dangerous, and the socket on the used ball joint can not help you with installing the new one.

New idea:
You may find a crows foot wrench that fits the flats on the rod end, at a reasonable cost.
Then an extension pass the ball joint to the impact gun. Lock the ball joint with a pipe wrench and turn the rod.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

Ultradog said:


> A couple of questions:
> How hot did you get the wrench when you ground it down?
> If any part of it turned blue as you were grinding you likely annealed the steel and it's weaker now.
> Are you looking to save the ball joint? If you are replacing it you could use heat to get the old one to loosen.
> ...


I took my time grinding a new wrench down; never got any of it blue. Heated the cylinder rod and ball joint to about 400 degrees, then tried loosening (left-hand thread). Wrench spread open enough to lose grip on the cylinder rod. Will try supporting both ends of the rod with wood on jack stands, heat one rod end to 450 degrees, then try turning with pipe wrenches on both ball joints, as suggested. Thanks for the ideas. This thing is TIGHT!!!! ABout ready to throw in thw towel and haul it to the dealer for $$$$ repair. Ugh!


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

"Crack the nut"..... Cut two angled slits at a 45 degree angle across the base with a die-grinder/cutoff wheel, of course work slowly and try to cut down to just barely above the threads. Cut a third slit at the outer end that connects the two "cracks" together aiming for what you think might be the end of the rod. If you have the replacement end, you can measure the thread depth to come up with where the end of the rod should be to accurately locate the 3rd slit. Use a hardened blunt-ended drift, or chisel, to knock an entire 1/2 section of the threads out. Any damage to the threads on the rod you happen to make can be corrected with a thread file from NAPA (Part # SER 2249) and some patience.

This is a pretty common problem when you go to disassemble the rear end on ATVs for rebuild. They sometimes use big jam nuts to lock the axle in the center of the diff and they are always frozen. I've seen heat and a 6' cheater bar not do the trick, but this technique has worked for me every time. Work carefully, be patient, and it will work for you.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Bob Driver said:


> "Crack the nut"..... Cut two angled slits at a 45 degree angle across the base with a die-grinder/cutoff wheel, of course try to cut down to just barely above the threads. Block the end of the rod so you can give it some good whacks with a hardened blunt end drift at the bottom/center/top of each slit. The idea is to relieve the grip of as many frozen threads as possible with the angled slits and spread the two "spiraling cracks" by opening what's remaining of the outer threads with the blunt drift. Starting at the outer end of the slits with the drift blows and working toward the rod will probably work best to spread the "cracks" in your situation. Any damage to the threads on the rod can be corrected with a thread file from NAPA (Part # SER 2249) and some patience.
> 
> This is a pretty common problem when you go to disassemble the rear end on ATVs for rebuild. They sometimes use big jam nuts to lock the axle in the center of the diff and they are always frozen. I've seen heat and a 6' cheater bar not do the trick, but this technique has worked for me every time. Work carefully, be patient, and it will work for you.


Read the postings in the thread.
The rod has an inside thread and the ball joint has a threaded stud that goes in there.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

Hacke said:


> Read the postings in the thread.
> The rod has an inside thread and the ball joint has a threaded stud that goes in there.


The ball joint is threaded on both ends. One end is exposed and screws into the track rod which attaches to the steering arms. I have these loose. The problem is that the threads of the other end of the ball joint (a stud) screw into the (inside) of the steering cylinder rod. The rod has only about a 9 mm "flat" at the very end where the ball joint butts up against the steering rod, so there's no good way to get a firm grip on the cylinder rod as a means of unscrewing the ball joint stud. And, of course, you can't use a pipe wrench on the rod or else it will get buggered up and ruin any new seals that are installed in the cylinder. And, of course, I can't use a cut-off wheel on the rod. Thanks for the ideas; I'm sure some who are dealing with different setups will find them useful.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

Here's what the ball joint looks like. The right-hand end, as shown in the picture, is what screws into the end of the steering cylinder rod.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

My3930 said:


> Here's what the ball joint looks like. The right-hand end, as shown in the picture, is what screws into the end of the steering cylinder rod.


Sorry about that, it was a HUA (Head up A..) on my part for not looking at the ball joint. So why not grind a little on the wrench flat so you can use a real wrench and stop trying to modify a cheap craftsman to fit? If that gives you heartburn, grind on the junk ball joint side until a good full width wrench fits. 

Go with what Ultradog said..... Grind whatever you feel comfortable to make to make a real wrench fit (it's times like this when you appreciate Snap-on tools), weld a socket on it, apply some heat, and hit it with your biggest impact, or longest cheater bar. What do you have to lose?

If that don't work, what other magic technique do you think the guys at the dealership are going to come up with at $100 an hour? If they snap the stud off in the rod using a Ingersoll 3/4", 1400 ft/lbs gun, or a 4 to 1 torque multiplier, the Service Manager is just going to send it to a machine shop and bill you for the stud extraction, but the Parts manager is going to vote to sell you a complete new cylinder *and* bill you for the time the Service Department had in screwing up yours.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

If I "grind on the junk ball joint side until a good full width wrench fits," that accomplishes nothing because then the full width wrench will be sitting on both the cylinder rod end AND the ball joint end. The challenge is not gripping the ball joint, a pipe wrench does that. The challenge is getting a good enough hold on the end of the cylinder rod to be able to unloosen it from the ball joint. And there's not enough space on the cylinder rod end to make room for a full size wrench. To do so would result in cutting into the smooth, polished end of the rod that makes contact with the cylinder end seal when the steering wheel is turned hard lock-to-lock.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

I would look for a forged wrench and skin a little off it. Many wrenches are only case hardened, so once you grind through the outer surface, they’re not that strong anymore.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

You may need to cut off the ball joint and then drill out the stud. Get a set of cobalt drill bits for this, so it will cut a little more aggressively. You don’t need to be perfectly centered, as long as the stud is hollowed out, when you break through on the threads on one side it will collapse in on itself and come out easily. Then just chase the thread or run die grinder with a small wire wheel in there to clean the threads.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

I found this:
https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/mfwd-ball-joint-economy-new-carraro-49001-case-ford-105181.html
and it says that the ball joint fits ford 6710 and 7710, among a lot of others.
Came to think of a shop manual I have for the 10-series, and found this:
"...cut away the locking tabs formed across the flats on the ends of the cylinder rod..."

I read this as the "flange" on the ball joint is knocked over the flats on the rod, in order to keep it from rotating. This routine is not uncommon on cars.

Take a chisel and tap the flange (see attached picture) towards the ball joint. Work around the whole circle. Maybe the flange is not bent over the flats, but you may loosen som rust that is between the surfaces. If you drive the flange all the way to stop, you may have place for a normal spanner/wrench over the flats?

And yes, the shop manual for the 10-series mention thread locker and heating the end of the rod. It is strange that they did not put a locking pin through the whole assembly as well...
These models have a sleeve/collar over the ball joint that act as a stop for the rod´s travel. If you find yourself in the situation where you can not see any other solution than widening the flats on the rod, maybe you could turn a spacer and put over the rod. Or make a sleeve/collar. There will be a larger steering radius as a result, but it should not be much of a difference.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

Thank for your suggestions. I'll see about finding a forged wrench.

On this particular ball joint, there are no locking tabs. According to the manual, this particular setup is assembled at the factory with "permanent" thread locker and high torque tightening.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

It is the "lip" in the attached picture I mean.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

OK, thank you. I'll check that out.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

I was able to talk with a Ford tractor service tech who was knowledgeable about this particular ball joint setup. The removal method is as follows--which worked like a charm: 

with a pipe wrench on both ball joints, turn until one of them comes loose.
loosen the joint that came loose until you can get a full-size wrench that fits onto the "flat" on the end of that cylinder rod end; then, tighten the loosened ball joint up onto the wrench to hold it securely in place.
then, with the wrench securely in place, the pipe wrench on the remaining ball joint can be turned to loosen it.
Within minutes of using this procedure, I had both ball joints off! 

Note: Both ball joints are right-hand thread. Second, there is no thread-locker used on these threads. Third, if one uses heat on the cylinder rod, it will ruin the rod.

Hope this helps someone else down the road. And thanks to all those who offered helpful suggestions.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

Nice! So is that a single solid rod spanning to both left and right ball joints?


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

Yes. Here's a picture. In this picture the blue end plate (which slides off) is up against the center piston assembly that is stationery on the rod so that as fluid enters from either end of the cylinder, the rod moves to steer the tractor.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Great work!



My3930 said:


> ...Both ball joints are right-hand thread....


Sorry, the information I found at NH said LH and RH threads. I assumed a 3930, agricultural all purpose model, 5/90-7/99. Anyway, loosening the first ball joint would be the same and then you will have "full access" to the flats.



My3930 said:


> ...if one uses heat on the cylinder rod, it will ruin the rod...


If you stay at the thread locker softening temperatures, nothing bad happens to the rod. And besides, rod ends are welded...
Just do not quench anything, just let it cool down by itself in room temperature.


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## My3930 (Jan 14, 2020)

Yes, it is confusing because while the ball joint side that screws into the cylinder rod are right-hand thread, the other side of the ball joint, the part that screws into the track rods, is a left-hand thread on the left side of the tractor. That one connection is left-hand thread, the other three ball joint connections are right-hand thread.

Thanks for the clarification about heating the rod. When I did heat it, I only got it up to about 450 degrees.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

The Parts List is wrong, or misleading at best. I found understandable presentations of the ball joints:
https://www.madisontractor.com/car49001-ball-joint-rh.html
https://www.madisontractor.com/car49006-ball-joint-lh.html

I edited my first post in order to not confuse someone in the same situation as you were in.


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