# Injector pump problem?



## flyingace

I have a Ford 3000 diesel. When hot, the engine over revs and will not return to idle. I have to put the engine under a load to slow it down. Sometimes if I wait, it will return to idle on it's own. The engine runs fine otherwise, no missing or loss of power.

Is this an issue with the throttle in the injector pump (Simms)? Can I do anything short of of rebuilding the entire pump?

Thanks,
John.


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## sixbales

My guess is that your governor is not working properly. I did some searching on this subject and found the following:

Comments from Jake:
I have a valmet tractor, which also has simms injector pump. The manual tells about two possible things causing this problem:
1) Too much oil in governor housing, or 2) Governor is broken/in need of service. 

Comments from Burrhead:
Yep if you have too much oil in it the flyweights can't spin out right. 
Most times the problem is from the oil having water in it to a point that the flyweights have gotten rusty and can't travel.
I would be sure to KEEP THE ENGINE KILL WORKING. When the governor sticks open the motor will sling apart if you can't get it shut down. 

Comments from Al Baker (pumpman):
First check the plug on the side of the pump and see if there is any oil in it. If not, its a good chance its too late. Usually by the time the governor is acting up this is a sign it has been run a while with out oil. This is very simple to check. Pull the side cover off the pump that says simms, should take a 1/2 inch wrench. Loosen the bolts, give the cover a tap and the cover will come off. Check in side and see if the springs you see are very rusty maybe even broke. If the pump has had oil in it the springs will be oily and look nice. If not she was run dry. If you have any other questions give me a call. 231-757-0064 

Questions for Al Baker: Where is the governor? Can I fix it myself?

The govenor is located in the housing ahead of the springs you can see. To replace the govenor assembly you need to completely disassemble the pump. With out a test stand its hard to recalabrate the pump after you put it back together. I have changed many of these gov. assemblies, and I usually change the bearings, springs and a seal kit at the same time. Its not very expensive to do this repair it shouldnt cost more that about $550. If you cant find someone in your area at a resonable price give me a call. 231-757-0064


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## flyingace

sixbales said:


> My guess is that your governor is not working properly. I did some searching on this subject and found the following:
> 
> Comments from Jake:
> I have a valmet tractor, which also has simms injector pump. The manual tells about two possible things causing this problem:
> 1) Too much oil in governor housing, or 2) Governor is broken/in need of service.
> 
> Comments from Burrhead:
> Yep if you have too much oil in it the flyweights can't spin out right.
> Most times the problem is from the oil having water in it to a point that the flyweights have gotten rusty and can't travel.
> I would be sure to KEEP THE ENGINE KILL WORKING. When the governor sticks open the motor will sling apart if you can't get it shut down.
> 
> Comments from Al Baker (pumpman):
> First check the plug on the side of the pump and see if there is any oil in it. If not, its a good chance its too late. Usually by the time the governor is acting up this is a sign it has been run a while with out oil. This is very simple to check. Pull the side cover off the pump that says simms, should take a 1/2 inch wrench. Loosen the bolts, give the cover a tap and the cover will come off. Check in side and see if the springs you see are very rusty maybe even broke. If the pump has had oil in it the springs will be oily and look nice. If not she was run dry. If you have any other questions give me a call. 231-757-0064
> 
> Questions for Al Baker: Where is the governor? Can I fix it myself?
> 
> The govenor is located in the housing ahead of the springs you can see. To replace the govenor assembly you need to completely disassemble the pump. With out a test stand its hard to recalabrate the pump after you put it back together. I have changed many of these gov. assemblies, and I usually change the bearings, springs and a seal kit at the same time. Its not very expensive to do this repair it shouldnt cost more that about $550. If you cant find someone in your area at a resonable price give me a call. 231-757-0064


Thanks a lot sixbales. This is above and beyond.

I fear the worst. When I got the tractor, there was no oil in the pump. I filled it right away but have no idea how long it was run without it. 

I will look at the pump springs and go from there. I'm doing a lot of other repairs on the tractor right now, so rather I 'spring' for the $550 overhaul or not will depend on how successful the other repairs are.


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## flyingace

*update*

I found out the breather was missing, and the hole it normally rests in was completely clogged. I cleaned it out and put some screening material in the hole.
I also cleaned up the parts inside the cover and changed the oil to a light (5/20)engine oil.

This seems to have helped quite a bit. The problem still exists, but the engine slows in response to the throttle more than it did before. At least enough such that I can
live with it until it gets worse.

Thanks again.
J.


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## koree2141

I hope you are still around. I have a 3000 ford with simms, suspect IJ pump maybe bac, pulled side cover some oil which is good, slides move freely. However I do nt see the springs you are referring to inside the simms pump housing, c leaned it out good, used small scree driver slid the slide back and forth freely. but noticed that the slides stay in high run position when screwdriver is moved. actuated throttle and slides move ok.

tractor trys to start, but will never complete starting processs, you let off of starter it goes dead, however during starting attempt small white smoke comes out of muffler and it is firing but like it is not getting enough fuel

any thoughts or prayers would be appreciated


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## sixbales

Howdy koree2141

Welcome to the Ford/New Holland tractor forum.

With a Simms pump, you have to change the oil in it every time you change the engine oil. 

Diesels do not like to start in cold weather. Your tractor should have a thermostart  unit on the intake manifold to inject heated/vaporized diesel into the intake manifold. Check it out to see if it's working. 
_____________________________________________________________

The first thing I'm going to post for you is a bleeding procedure. 

This is a procedure originally posted by Jerry/MT on the YT Forum. I’ve added a few things, but it’s the best detailed bleeding procedure that I’ve seen.

How long has it been since the fuel filter was changed? Might be a good time to change it. 
__________________________________________________ _____________

Start at the fuel outlet of the tank (inlet to the filter). Shut the tank valve, remove the line at the filter inlet and holding a suitable container to catch the diesel fuel, open the valve. You should have a CONTINUOUS rush/flow of fuel out of the line. If it dribbles or is intermittent, check the fuel cap for a blockage of the fuel vent or the strainer upstream of the valve for clogging. The strainer/screen is attached to the shut-off valve, and is positioned up inside the tank. You will have to drain the tank and pull the valve to clean the screen. 

If you have good fuel flow at that point, reconnect the line and open the bleeder screw at the top of the filter. Turn on the tank valve and wait till you have a steady flow of fuel with no bubbles at the top of the filter, then close the bleeder screw. 

Your injection pump may have a lift pump with a priming lever attached to the side of it. If so, work the priming lever a few strokes. If not, loosen the inlet connection at the pump and purge air at that point. 

Go back and make sure ALL the fittngs in the fuel delivery system are tight so they cannot suck air.

Make sure the battery is fully charged. Loosen the fuel fittings at the injectors, either one at a time or all at once. Crank the engine till you see all fuel at the injector fittings and then tighten the fittings. If you do indvidual fittings, the engine will usually start before you get to the last fitting. 

Alternatively, you can "tow-start" it to save wear and tear on your starter. Leave the injector lines cracked open at the injectors at first to purge the lines. Then tighten them up and she should start.

Your injection pump puts out a very small amount of fuel (high pressure/low volume). BE PATIENT. If the lines are totally empty, it takes a lot of cranking to fill them up.


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## thepumpguysc

There is a "cold start" rod on a Simms pump.. its located at the shut off shaft.. its the rod that goes thru it and should have a rubber bellows over it..
Put the hand throttle about mid travel, push in on the rod, you should hear a "click".. NOW loosen the bleed screw above the side cover, {1/2" wrench} its between the side cover and the injector lines on the pump..
NOW, use the hand primer on the lift pump to get fuel out of the bleed screw.. NO AIR.. tighten the bleed screw..
Loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS.. no need to remove them, just loosen a few turns.. 
Crank the engine until fuel squirts out.. tighten lines.. 
NOW try to start the engine..
The rod at the shut-off shaft is "a choke", so to speak.. it dumps 2x the fuel into the engine for starting..
Good luck. TPG


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## thepumpguysc

BTW>> its #43 in the drawing.. "excess fuel rod".


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## Ralmaroad

I have a Ford 2000 Super Dexta that WILL NOT start. Siimms Pump also. I've followed all of the directions from this thread. I'm not getting any fuel at the injectors after cranking for a while. Any Ideas or suggestions. I've tried to spray a little starting fuel in the breather and yet nothing. I'm getting fuel at the injector pump, but not fully sure that there is enough flow through the lines.


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## Ralmaroad

On another note: How much oil should be in the injector pump? Does it need to be full inorder to pump. Mine hasn't anything as a guide nor any guidelines as how it works. Thanks, Roy


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## harry16

Hello Roy,

Greetings from the Ford/New Holland tractor forum. 

1. You say "I'm not getting any fuel at the injectors after cranking for a while. I'm getting fuel at the injector pump, but not fully sure that there is enough flow through the lines." 

The volume of fuel pumped to the injectors is very small (high pressure/low volume). The question is - are you getting a small amount of fuel to the injectors? You can try tow-starting it. Leave the injection lines cracked open at the start to be sure to get fuel to the injectors. Then when it's obvious you have fuel to the injectors, tighten the connections and tow it again. Should start. 

2. You say "I've tried to spray a little starting fuel in the breather and yet nothing."

This is not a good indicator. A small shot of ether should make it start and run briefly. Do not spray large amounts of ether into the intake. Maybe your air intake line has a blockage?? Rat's nest, bird's nest, squirrel's nest, etc. 

If a diesel won't fire on ether, you must have very low compression. Has this tractor been sitting/idle for an extended period??


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## Ralmaroad

I've been starting it through the winter but not using it. During the last snow I started it and it ran out of fuel just sitting there. I got busy and when I returned it had quit. Tracing the fuel by opening fitting all the way to the injector pump. There is a bleed screw on the front of the pump that the manual says to open and use the thumb primer to push out the air. I did that but as long as I pump it just will not pump up to the injectors. Turning the engine over until the battery gets low did not help. I don't use this tractor much other than pull the rock rake since the compression is so low. Any other help would be great. It's a puzzlement that there is not any fuel getting up to the injectors. The oil is quite low in the injector pump itself. I don't know if that has a bearing on anything or not. Know anything about that?
Thanks


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## harry16

You are supposed to change the oil in a Simms pump every time you change the engine oil. Same oil in the pump as in the engine. There is a drain plug (#73) on the Simms pump, a fluid level check plug (also #73), see parts diagram, and a place up top (#75) for adding oil. If you run it out of oil, there's a good chance that the pump is ruined. You know it's low on oil??? If you have never changed the oil in the pump, it might be a good time to change oil...

If it won't fire on ether, you have a serious compression problem, or a plugged air intake line. It really should fire on ether. I question if you are getting ether to the engine?? 

Your Simms pump should have a lift pump on the side. If it won't pump diesel, change it.


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## Ralmaroad

That lift pump is almost gone. It pumps just a little with out any resistance. The engine was running until it ran out of fuel. I'll replace that lift pump. Thanks.


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## Ralmaroad

Where would be the best place to buy a (1965?) Ford Super Dexta Lift pump? I only know of Yesterday's Tractors. The existing pump has a tiny bit but the thumb lever has NO resistance what so ever. How can I check the compression on the injector pump?
Thanks,
Roy


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## Ralmaroad

Harry and others: Got the Tractor running. It took my brother and I both to get it started. Completely filled the tank. Gravity feed sucks. The first fuel filter is actually about level with the bottom of the tank, some of the fuel lines are above that. Such poor design. Anyway, My brother ran the lift pump below the injector pump and hit the breather with ether. I ran the starter and worked the throttle. It took recharging the battery many times to get fuel to the injectors and after bleeding them, she took off. Moral--never let a Super Dexta run out of fuel and to check the tank before starting them each and every time. Thanks everyone and this may help someone down the line.


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## Fedup

Don't wish to belittle your efforts here, but I don't think you have solved your problems long term. If you have a bad lift pump you still have a bad lift pump. The engine may well start and run with a full tank of fuel, but as the fuel level drops, you add a load to the engine demanding fuel at a rate greater than gravity can provide, and presto -- your problem returns. 
The lift pump is there not just to help bleed the system, but to draw fuel from the tank, force it through the filters, and provide the injection pump with a good supply of air free fuel under sufficient pressure to charge the plungers under ALL conditions, not just at idle or minimal load. 
Bottom line, if your lift pump doesn't perform, replace it.


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## harry16

Congratulations on getting it started. I NEVER let my diesel run out of fuel, because it can be a struggle to get it going again.

Fedup also has a point. If the lift pump is not working, replace it. Did you put some oil in the Simms pump??


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## Ralmaroad

Oh yes, it was down about a cup and half. Filled it with Rotello. I'm still going to replace that lift pump. Is there a way to avoid all of the fuel backing out of it. My plan was to take off one of the lines , quickly stuff a small stick that I had pre-sized to fit the line. And TRY to Fill the pump with fuel using a small squirt bottle before attaching the lines. The gut feeling is that the diaphragm is cracked because of age.
Do you know of a reliable place to buy the lift pump?It took many times to get fuel to the injectors and many bleedings. I was to the point of putting a fitting on an injector line and using a brake bleeding vacuum pump to pull fuel into the system. Such a poor design.
Thanks,
Roy


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## HarveyW

They're not expensive. If you can find a part number for your lift pump, there are many listed on ebay and on the internet. 

Fuel shouldn't flow back. The pump's discharge valves should hold it in the injection lines.

There should be a purging procedure for the new lift pump?


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## Fedup

It's really NOT a poor design. Your poor results were brought about by trying to bleed the system with a non functioning lift pump. 
I suggest you obtain a new pump. Before attempting to install it, start the tractor(hopefully it WILL start) and let it run for maybe ten or twenty minutes. Then shut it down and replace your pump. You don't need any sticks or plugs, and you don't need to be "quick". Take your time and do it right. Next bleed the fuel filters using the lift pump until ALL air is dispersed and a solid stream of fuel is visible from the vent plug. Next move on the the bleed vent on the injection pump and do the same, then tighten the vent. Stroke the pump again for a few seconds until the resistance in the pump drops off. Wait a few more seconds and repeat. If you do this correctly, you tractor will start right up with no bleeding at injectors required. 
I find it's always a good idea(whenever possible) to run the engine for a while to "warm it up". It not only cranks faster than a cold engine, but also assures the best possibility for a good static charge in the lines between pump and injectors. A warm engine is always faster and easier starting than a cold one. I've used this technique for years whenever I change filters or open up a fuel system for any reason. Use every advantage you can find.


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## alaninman329

I have a Shibuara SP1540 / Ford/New Holland and I need to re move the injector pump
Can anyone out there let me know how to do this from the get go

Alan


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