# Fuel Injection Pump Failure -Removel-Replacement-Timing??????



## GaryR

Hi everyone, i am new to the forum and this is my first post and i think a lot of you will find my experience interesting. I have a 2005 Kioti DK45s with only 1,036 hours and my FIP broke in the FULL open throttle and what a heck of a ride i had for 25 minutues before my friend could get to me and cut the fuel lines. Almost blew-up the engine at over 4,000rpms for 25 minutes...she was hot. I have read all the problems people have had with the FIP since 2005. If you don't know Kioti wants ...$1,444 for the pump but i am having mine rebuilt...which will cost me about $800. Also, you might want to know Kioti or more correct..Bosh/Zexel has superseeded the pump 4 TIMES in the last 12 years. Think they NOW know they have a problem or HAD a problem? Once again, for your information, for the last 14years many people on this forum have tried to figure out the problem....fuel needs additides, solenoid raming the rack to hard....teeth on gears to soft and so on and so on. So yesterday a unamed Kioti dealer told me that Kioti told him the metel in the rack was to hard. The company (26 years in business) that is rebuilding my pump said that was the dumbing thing they had ever head. They said they have seen over 1,000 of Bosh/Zexel pumps off several other tractors that have the same pump and it is NOT the rack. When i asked what the problem is, they said they could not tell untill i bring it in and they take it apart.
Now, here is my question, do i have to worry abot timing? I have a dealer service book and i can not find anything about timing. Do i just pull the pump and not have to worry about timing.
Thanks to all for reading and thanks to anyone that can help me about this timing issue.
:dazed::dazed:


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## ChrisK

There is no timing issues with removing the injector pump as a whole, disassembly of the pump itself is a different issue. Not sure but on the smaller engines you have to remove the intake manifold and the injector lines then just 2 bolts and 2 nuts I think hold the pump down, And there are usually shims under the pump for timing, I have always put them back as they were with no issues.

I guess you found a place to get the pump work done, I have not been able to contact the person that knew where to get it done

CK


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## GaryR

ChrisK....Thanks for the information. I have the FIP out and at a rebuilder. Had teeth on one gears broken and jammed the rack. I am having the rebuilder replace all 4 gears just incase there is some issue with the gears back then. Bought this tractor used in 2009 from a Kioti dealer with about 500 hour and found out yesterday from Kioti that the orginial pump was replaced with a new pump in 2008. Funny, my pump is a Doowon and not a Zexel. I guess that is what they were using in the early years because i remember another owner on this forum saying their pump was a Doowon and they had a Dk45s like mine. Sure hope the tractor runs when i put it back together. LOL
Thanks again for you help.
GR


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## parris001

So, I found the original poster had made put this up, and it has been a few years. But I created an account just to come on here and put my two cents worth in about this.

I use the Daedong 4A220 on a daily basis. I build generator units with them for the industry I work in. And these engines are, I'm sure you know, a clone of the Kubota V2203 engine. I don't know if you're aware, but these engines are so close a copy, I put a Kubota crankshaft in a 4A220 just to prove it can be done. 

So I've been using this engine for a few years now. Not many issues. They smoke like crazy on a cold start but I attribute that to the piston design. I'm going to put Kubota pistons in the first one of these I rebuild and see if the smoking on cold start goes away. 

But the one issue I have had is fuel leaks at the fuel injection pump. And I've never been crazy about these Bosch/Diesel Kiki pumps. It's a Bosch K mini pump. And my local pump rebuild shop, Diesel Sales and Service in Nashville have ordered parts for me to fix a pump. I had one with a leak and the guys in the maintenance shop tore into it to replace leaking o-rings. Well, they dumped a ton of dirt down in the pump and it ruined the plungers and bushings. What could have been a relatively cheap repair turned into a real pain in the butt. 

So I sent the pump out, they've got to order parts from Germany. I'll be down on this one for at least 90 days. But I got to thinking, this engine is really close to the Kubota. And I have rebuilt Denso injection pumps sitting on the shelf......... so I dropped one in and tried to time it. What I found is that with the factory Bosch gaskets and shims under a Denso pump, the timing was going to be firing a cylinder at TDC. I removed all the gaskets and dropped the pump right on the block and got timing to show firing at 9 degrees BTDC. That's getting pretty close....... I'd like to see 13.5 or 14 degrees BTDC.

I took the Denso pump completely apart. And started figuring out how much material I'd have to get the machine shop to remove in order to drop the Denso pump (a much better pump in my opinion than the Bosch) onto the Daedong/Kioti. And I came up with .054. If I have .054 taken off of my Denso pump body then I should be able to use a fairly standard set of gaskets and shims to get pretty much any ignition timing I might want. 

The machine shop quoted me about $240 in labor. I think the last brand new Denso pump I bought was in the $250-300 range. So for something just north of $500, I think I'll be able to put a much better cast iron (versus that Bosch aluminum POS) Denso pump in place of what seems to be a very problematic Bosch FIP. 

I'll keep you posted. I know a new (and with zero improvements) dealer supplied Kioti pump runs $1500. This may be a fix to a problem at a fraction of the cost.


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## parris001

I got the pump body assembly back from the machine shop and reassembled the pump. Dropped it off in the engine and set about timing it. I hit the numbers right on the mark with my math and material removal. I'm firing right at 13.5 degrees BTDC with the factory gaskets and shims I have.

BUT, the material I've removed and dropping the pump deeper in the engine has caused another problem. The rack is binding on the pump when I snug it down. I'm tearing the pump back apart today to see if I can find something I can shave a little material off of to keep the binding from occurring.


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## thepumpguysc

The rack pin may be sitting to far down in its cradle on the engine control rack.. a small die grinder touch is maybe all you need..
OR the rollers are coming to far up and binding/bottoming the control rack in the pump..
IF the engine has a side cover where the pump is, remove it and see about the control rack idea..
I don't think theres anything you can do to the pump.. other than raise it to keep the rollers from bottoming in the housing.. BUT then you'll change the timing and that's not what you want to accomplish..
So check the rack 1st..


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## parris001

This engine doesn't have that slot that the pump rack sits down into. It's a variation of the old V2203 but the stop solenoid is on the front of the engine. It's a little different setup.

I took the pump back apart and checked lift of the fuel cam lobes. I disassembled the injection pump and reassembled it without the cam follower springs. I transferred the same amount of cam lift to the injection pump as the cam lobes would, and found the problem. The cam follower pushrod was bottoming in the P&B and jamming the rack. 

There's a shim in the bottom of the cam follower. I'm hoping it just adds some spring preload for the cam follower. The shim wasn't .054 worth of thickness, was in the neighborhood of .035. So I took these shims out and reassembled the pump. Put everything back together and dropped it back off in the engine. Timing stayed at what I wanted, as I thought it would. BOI didn't change, just the full stroke.

It's a ******* way of addressing the problem. I'm going to finish building this generator unit before I fire it off and test it. But my goal is to offer a cheaper solution to a $1500 injection pump. If the cast iron Denso pump can be used at a fraction of the cost, it'll be a better pump than the engine came with originally.


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## thepumpguysc

1500.00 is for a NEW pump.. I rebuild them all day long for about 100.00 a cylinder..
+ any broken parts or lost parts due to customer involvement..
The rack segment that breaks is only about 27.00 or less.. 
I think your pissin in the wind changing pumps and removing parts.. but we wont know until your done.. good luck.


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## DanielCT230

thepumpguysc said:


> 1500.00 is for a NEW pump.. I rebuild them all day long for about 100.00 a cylinder..
> + any broken parts or lost parts due to customer involvement..
> The rack segment that breaks is only about 27.00 or less..
> I think your pissin in the wind changing pumps and removing parts.. but we wont know until your done.. good luck.



I'm in Australia.
I have a 3 cyl 1.5 litre Daedong engine on my Bob Cat brand CT230 tractor.
The pump is cast iron with only number 80627 stamped on the name plate.
The usual rack gear break has happened and the rack stuck in off position.
I dismantled the pump and rotated the broken rack gear 180° but now have full throttle at all times. I suspect that I made a mistake in aligning the rack gears with the rack rod.

Hey the "pumpguysc" can you sell me the rack gear and can you please advise how the fuel control rods, rack gears and rack are aligned? The fuel control rod bodies are aligned with a keyed pin. The fuel control rods can go in 2 different ways. The rack gears go in how in relation to the rack?? 

see http://2881neches.com/kioti/page2.html which shows the identical issue that I have.
Unfortunately the explanation for rack gear alignment doesn't make too much sense as it is unclear which way (up or down) the alignment is looked at.
Also at 180° from the broken rack gear teeth the rack gear has no teeth thus preventing the 180° turn as suggested on that web site. So I need a new rack gear at the least.


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## thepumpguysc

Looking in the holes in the bottom of the pump.. the pumping plungers go in w/ the slot on the end[helix] OPPOSITE the control rack.
The top nuts[delivery valve holders] have to be torqued to 30-35 FT lbs..
The gears AND rack should be marked w/ a line on the rack AND a chamfered tooth on the gear.. just line them up..
Without the proper pump # I cant help w/ the gear part #..


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## DanielCT230

The pump is a cast iron bosch copy - on name plate the number 80627 is stamped.
It is fitted to a 3 cylinder Daedong 1.5 litre engine which in Australia was sold by Bob Cat as a CT230 tractor. I think in USA it was sold as a Kioti or similar tractor. Some say that the Daedong is an identical copy of the Kubota equivalent engine with full parts compatibility including things like crankshafts etc.

The internet is full of horror stories of the middle (cylinder 2) gear breaking teeth and jamming the rack in the stop position although some have the unfortunate situation of jamming at full throttle. These breakages all seem to occur at about 500-600 hours of use.

Apparently the gear teeth cannot handle the sudden violent impact upon the control rack of the shut off solenoid which sits at one end of the rack and is only cushioned by a spring at the other end. There probably should be some sort of shock absorber designed into the system. Interestingly the center gear is the one that usually fails......

Alignment??
The gear has a small sector of teeth not cut.
I will examine it closer later on today when I dismantle it again.......
The fuel rod can go into the gear in 2 ways (180°) as it is located in the slot of the gear.
The fuel rod body is keyed by a locating pin into fixed position and has a fuel entry hole which is I guess where the fuel amount delivery is regulated by.

By the way, I have found that the delivery valve holder nuts are always torqued to about 60 ft lbs or more on various injection pumps that I have worked on over the years. ....

Bob Cat can supply a new pump (which interestingly is a different type being cast of aluminium) having Zexel name cast into it and numbers 6121X at rear and 40710 at front stamped into the casting. Bob Cat are asking $1450! Apart from the aluminium casting the pump looks different in the way that the cam plungers are safety wired. Also the delivery valve nuts have plates around them bolted to the pump body - don't know what they are for? The original cast iron pump simply has o'ring seals there.... see photos....


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## thepumpguysc

IF that pump in your picture is a direct replacement for your pump.??
Look at the #'s stamped into the housing opposite the fuel inlet.. what do they read?
Those #'s are a code for the actual pump #..
IF I can get those #'s I can get you a gear #..
The DV holders ARE TORQUED TO 30-35FTLBS.!!!!
Does your pump have any #'s stamped into the housing, front or back??


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## DanielCT230

thanks 'thepumpguysc' - I gather you are warning me to not tighten any more than 35?

the new pump is a direct replacement but it is a different manufacturer and different pump.
I suspect that Bob Cat realised that the original Daedong IP is deficient and decided to supply the Zexel as a spare part. 

The zexel aluminium casting pump is different to others I have seen whereas the old cast iron pump looks like the Bosch(Diesel kiki) type pump to me - probably a direct chinese/korean copy from what I have read on various forums.

I will strip the old pump and measure up the rack gear and provide any other info that I can for you.


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## DK35vince

DanielCT230 said:


> It is fitted to a 3 cylinder Daedong 1.5 litre engine which in Australia was sold by Bob Cat as a CT230 tractor. I think in USA it was sold as a Kioti or similar tractor. The internet is full of horror stories of the middle (cylinder 2) gear breaking teeth and jamming the rack in the stop position although some have the unfortunate situation of jamming at full throttle. These breakages all seem to occur at about 500-600 hours of use.
> 
> Apparently the gear teeth cannot handle the sudden violent impact upon the control rack of the shut off solenoid which sits at one end of the rack and is only cushioned by a spring at the other end. There probably should be some sort of shock absorber designed into the system. Interestingly the center gear is the one that usually fails.......


Several of the 2005-2008 models had that issue.
My understanding is they changed the shutdown setup on the pumps on those year models causing pump gear issues.


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## Jim B.

I suspected an IP rack failure on my 2010 Kioti CK20. Turned out to be the spring housing on the back of the pump. Stuck spring froze the rack in the OFF position. Took a 19mm wrench and took it off. Cleaned and lubed. Tractor now runs fine. Thankful it wasn't a pump with broken teeth. Which is common on older pumps. I've included a pic of the housing. Hope this helps someone. Check this first. I've also included a pic of the Stop Selenoid with the manual stop cover open.


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