# Case IH engine problem



## duzfarmboy

I need some advice. A couple of weeks ago our MXM 175 engine started running rough and shut off in the field. We hauled it in to our shop and noticed that the fuel pump was loose, one mounting bolt had broken off and the head seemed like it was down inside the front gears. We pulled the pump, front cover and found the bolt head. I sent the pump to the fuel injection shop because the housing was worn from running loose. The pump drive gear had a chip out of one tooth, so I bought a new gear and started reading about setting the timing on the pump and engine. It sounded complicated and needed special tools so I called the dealer to send a mechanic to install the pump and time the engine. The mechanic showed up, didn't have the tools either but said he didn't really need them. I left him and our mechanic that morning to install the pump, the new pump drive gear, time them to the engine and put front cover back on together. When I came back later they were done, the dealer's mechanic was gone but not before they had started the motor up just to see if it would start, it only ran a few seconds. Our mechanic was putting the radiator back in, I asked if everything went OK, he said the dealer's mechanic had lost his spot timing the engine and they had to bar it over a few times, pull the idler gear and reset it. But it seemed to be OK, mentioned that it was hard to bar over and sounded noisier than before. He finished the tractor and sent it back out near the shop to scrape the roads, kind of a shakedown cruise. The radiator to engine hoses sprung leaks, first one then the other(note to self- always change hoses when working on a tractor with 6000 hours) Sorry it's getting to be a long story. Here's the deal- The engine siezed up within 5-10 hours of operation after the pump install. We retreived it, pulled the head #2 dropped a valve into the piston which split and froze in the sleeve. Ok, maybe just coincidental bad luck? Question : Why are the other pistons all showing that the valves have been hitting them? The dealer sent another mechanic over to check on the timing, he said he couldn't tell becaus ethe engine wouldn't turn over and that they needed in their shop to pull the pan, and #2 rod. Engine crank is damaged, they say new motor is $28,000 and that the engine crankshaft to camshaft timing marks are lined up like they are supposed to be. I keep asking how those valve contact marks got on the other pistons
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## rsmith335

Welcome $ 28,000.00 is hard to swallow for any body. How many hours are on the engine and what's the life of o normally used engine. If the engine isn't above the hours and has been serviced. Sounds like something went wrong during bar over. Let us know how it goes.


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## duzfarmboy

Yeah, it's a lot to swallow- The engine has around 6000 hrs, should normally go to 10-12,000hrs. without problems. I'm not sure how the valves can hit the pistons unless the crank to cam timing was changed. The store manager was trying to say that the fuel pump caused the engine to overspeed and 'float' the valves into the pistons


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## rsmith335

Any time I had a diesel fuel pump problem, the symtom was underspeed and puke where it was at. I have it, a piece of straw got stuck in the turbo and hung it up wide open-NOT. The only way I know that pistons hit valves is a break down in the timming- belts, chains or gears. Bummer


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## Country Boy

Seeing as the valves are hitting the pistons, I infer that this is an interference type engine. Is the cam driven by a belt, chain, or gears? Did the mechanic disconnect the belt/chain or remove one of the gears, which would allow the engine to get out of time? Did the bolt head get jammed in the gears/chain/belt and cause it to jump time? The only way the valves could be hitting the pistons is if the camshaft got out of time.  Its possible that caused your initial shutdown issues, and not the fuel pump. The valves can float, but the engine would have to be running *very* fast for that to happen. I think a careful engine teardown and examination is in order to determine if the timing is off because of the mechanic, or if it was because of the bolt head or some other issue.


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## duzfarmboy

I agree that floating the valves would require the engine to run very fast. Assuming the governor on the injection pump was not working properly, except that the pump has electronic governor controlled from the engine ECM. I've heard of the possibility of a truck engine overspeeding by going downhill and the tires driving the engine over the governed speed, but not a tractor on flat ground. Bolt head chipped a tooth on the injection pump geat, no other damage to other gears. The bolthead/ loose injection pump no doubt caused the initial lousy running/ shutdown. Camshaft is gear driven by idler gear which is driven off crankshaft. Dealers mechanic missed getting the fuel pump timing set correctly at first and he adjusted jumping the idler gear a tooth. Fuel pump timing was ok because the engine started but was louder and clattered. Engine ran a couple of hours before dropping the valve and siezing up. Teardown indicates that the other pistons except #1 ? are being hit by valves. There are no indications that cam or crank gears sheared keys on shafts. Case IH dealer's store manager says that the gear timing marks are lined up like they should be, it's not their fault, come pick up the tractor,


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## Country Boy

Could the valves be hanging up in their guides? I have seen that on lawn and garden engines before. Carbon, varnish, or heat can cause the valves to seize and drag. Something has to be causing the valves to hit the pistons, and if timing isn't the cause, then the culprit has to be found. Any good diesel shops in your area? Having an independent shop look at the engine might help. Your dealer might be trying to cover their backside if they did screw up.


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## duzfarmboy

The valves aren't hanging up or carboned more than diesel engines do regularly. The motor was noisier and clattering when we started after the dealer's mechanic retimed the engine and it only ran a few(2-4?hrs.) before dropping that valve. The dealer's folks can't explain why valves were hitting pistons. They say that the timing marks on the gears are lined up like there are supposed to be. They took it back to their shop and made sure everything was right. I think the mechanics made sure that the timing marks are right now to try to cover their error. There is no other explanation for the valve marks and broken valve. The service manager can't explain how that could happen. The salesman said that the scrap value of the tractor was $20,000 and they'd credit me that much to a new tractor. I said that I'm open to an upgrade but that the tractor was worth at least $50000 before their mechanic tried to retime the engine and got it was wrong. The dealer's store manager doesn't want to own up to it and doesn't care if I remain a customer or not. Must not be enough profit potential in a new one? The Case IH factory rep is supposed to follow up on this but I haven't heard a peep yet-


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## Country Boy

Yeah, I think someone is trying to cover their ass. Reminds me of a problem a local farmer had. His new JD 8400 kept blowing head gaskets, sometimes 2-3 a year. The JD dealer was told by JD to deck the block to make sure it was true. When the dealer was disassembling the engine, they couldn't get the two center sleeves out. JD rep said that the farmer had twisted the block and his warranty was void. Farmer told the rep and the dealer to.... well, it wasn't family friendly so I won't post it here. Lets just say it involved inserting the tractor into a certain orifice....

He took the tractor to a local Agco dealer and they discovered that the center sleeves were different than the other ones. Turns out JD installed the wrong sleeves in the block at the factory and they were sitting up a few thousandths of an inch higher than the rest. They installed new sleeves, and the tractor ran perfectly fine after that. The farmer ended up suing JD and the JD dealer and ended up getting the repair costs covered.

If the dealer doesn't care about you being a return customer, and if you can prove they messed with the engine (look for wrench marks on bolts for example), then I'd feel no qualms about suing them out of business.


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## GTML

As the timing is by gears. the only cause of valves impinging on the pistons is mis-timing and if the machine had run for 6000 hrs previously then it must have been ok when it left the factory, timing can be tricky as there are usually four gears in the timing train and they have to be quite a few teeth out to interfere, normally pump timing and pump verification is straightforward but one has to be careful and not hesitate to double check. Check with another dealer there may be a pattern parts engine kit available and most of those are pretty good, and new pattern parts crankshaft as well, price it as fiddling around with a badly damaged engine can be expensive, how about an engine ex a fire damaged tractor? Cab fires can wrute a machine off sometimes the engines have only superficial damage G


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## 38caserc

does anyone know how to set the timing for a 38 case rc?


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