# Front/Rear weight ballance



## Motovate

Put this one under the strange but true or Going Back to Old Old School! Post WWII.

I have a 2003 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, as near as I can tell the existing weight bias is real close to 50/50. I installed a class 1 hydraulic self contained 3 point hitch on the front via a 2" trailer receiver. This set up is pretty close to 75 pounds. I have a 6 Ft 3 point blade I am putting on the front. Guessing the total weight will be around 375 to 425 lbs. I know I need to counter balance this weight. Basically do I need to add 400+ lbs on the rear? Will less work? Do I need to add more? I'm looking for a good starting place. The 3 point does not have hydraulic down pressure - power up Gravity Down. I will be using it to plow some ditches, push snow & dirt, blade and back blade driveways, etc. At some point maybe a single gang plow or at least a middle buster for digging ditches and a lift pole to pick up and move things around the yard. It will easily move from the front to the rear like a trailer. Pull the hitch pin - move it ,stick it in the receiver and stick the pin back in. Why the Jeep - I could never quite make getting a Tractor & I already have the jeep. Any Ideas will help. I'm just about ready to stick the blade on and start adding weight in the rear.


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## Ed Williams

If you can mount a 55 gal drum on the rear, you can adjust the weight by the volume of liquid in the drum. If you can get one of the heavy wall poly drums, you can use CaCl as the ballast fluid. At 11.1 lbs/gal for the 31% mixture, (freeze point -60 deg F) it is one of the heaviest non freeze solutions you can get. That will get you a max of 610.5 lbs, ,plus weight of drum, balance capacity that you can fine tune to your needs. Liquid will bounce around and may give problems when turning, etc. Another balance material that will suit you application would be play sand. I would spread it out on metal sheets and let it dry out so it won't clump while pouring, or freeze inside the drum. At 100 lb per cu ft, 13.4 lb per gal, for dry sand, this is excellent ballast material without the mess and problems associated with liquid ballast. Sand will give you 737 lbs, plus drum, of ballast capacity.


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## Motovate

Ed Williams said:


> If you can mount a 55 gal drum on the rear, you can adjust the weight by the volume of liquid in the drum. If you can get one of the heavy wall poly drums, you can use CaCl as the ballast fluid. At 11.1 lbs/gal for the 31% mixture, (freeze point -60 deg F) it is one of the heaviest non freeze solutions you can get. That will get you a max of 610.5 lbs, ,plus weight of drum, balance capacity that you can fine tune to your needs. Liquid will bounce around and may give problems when turning, etc. Another balance material that will suit you application would be play sand. I would spread it out on metal sheets and let it dry out so it won't clump while pouring, or freeze inside the drum. At 100 lb per cu ft, 13.4 lb per gal, for dry sand, this is excellent ballast material without the mess and problems associated with liquid ballast. Sand will give you 737 lbs, plus drum, of ballast capacity.


Thanks you - what I really need to know is how much weight do I need. If I put 400 lbs on the front do I have to put 400 on the back?


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## Ed Williams

That would keep the weight balance and handling the same as it is now. If you change the original weight balance, you could be adding wear to some component parts that were not designed for the additional load.


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## Motovate

Ed Williams said:


> That would keep the weight balance and handling the same as it is now. If you change the original weight balance, you could be adding wear to some component parts that were not designed for the additional load.


OK so I need to even out front to rear as much as possible. Does the length of the load make a difference. I just measured the 3 pt from just in front of the front tires to the farthest point out on the 3 point. That is about where the 3 point mounts to the receiver. It measured 3 1/2 feet. Then I measured the blade from the 3 pt mounting pins to the front of the blade 3 feet. So 6 1/2' of lever effect. I probably should add extra weight to off set that correct????? Any Idea how to figure that out. Add another 50% or 200 lbs or something like that??? Thanks


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## FredM

to keep it simple, if you multiply 400lbs by the length, say 6 feet that becomes 2400 lbs foot torque at the 2 inch hitch plus the weight of the 3 point, and that becomes a lot of leverage, it would be better if you could get the blade much closer to the 3 point to take a lot of stress from the front of the jeep, the front wheels become the fulcrum and with the blade sitting out 6 feet, this become a counter weight and in some cases, will lift the rear wheels from the ground, which wouldn't be desirable, if you can measure from the center of the rear axle to the mount point for the counter weight, thus for instance, the length from axle center to mount point is 3 feet and say the weight is 400lb, then that becomes roughly 1200 foot pounds because the rear axle becomes the fulcrum.


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## Motovate

FredM said:


> to keep it simple, if you multiply 400lbs by the length, say 6 feet that becomes 2400 lbs foot torque at the 2 inch hitch plus the weight of the 3 point, and that becomes a lot of leverage, it would be better if you could get the blade much closer to the 3 point to take a lot of stress from the front of the jeep, the front wheels become the fulcrum and with the blade sitting out 6 feet, this become a counter weight and in some cases, will lift the rear wheels from the ground, which wouldn't be desirable, if you can measure from the center of the rear axle to the mount point for the counter weight, thus for instance, the length from axle center to mount point is 3 feet and say the weight is 400lb, then that becomes roughly 1200 foot pounds because the rear axle becomes the fulcrum.


OK - sort of - have to let it stew a bit. But I think I've got it. After I measured it out I didn't much like what I saw. Are there different lengths of lift arms? That is what you call the lower arms correct? Mine are 32" center pin to center pin hole. That would shorten it up some if I got shorter ones???? I can probably move in 3" or 4 " by taking it apart and shortening up the hitch sticker and drilling some newer hitch pin holes. Pretty sure it is solid 2" square steel so getting the new pin holes drilled will take a bit. Not much I can do with the blade. I have started getting things together for a rear weight box and can move it in or out some to increase real weight leverage. Thanks - Appreciate it. LBM


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## Ultradog

Motovate said:


> Put this one under the strange but true or Going Back to Old Old School! Post WWII.
> 
> I have a 2003 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, as near as I can tell the existing weight bias is real close to 50/50. I installed a class 1 hydraulic self contained 3 point hitch on the front via a 2" trailer receiver. This set up is pretty close to 75 pounds. I have a 6 Ft 3 point blade I am putting on the front. Guessing the total weight will be around 375 to 425 lbs. I know I need to counter balance this weight. Basically do I need to add 400+ lbs on the rear? Will less work? Do I need to add more? I'm looking for a good starting place. The 3 point does not have hydraulic down pressure - power up Gravity Down. I will be using it to plow some ditches, push snow & dirt, blade and back blade driveways, etc. At some point maybe a single gang plow or at least a middle buster for digging ditches and a lift pole to pick up and move things around the yard. It will easily move from the front to the rear like a trailer. Pull the hitch pin - move it ,stick it in the receiver and stick the pin back in. Why the Jeep - I could never quite make getting a Tractor & I already have the jeep. Any Ideas will help. I'm just about ready to stick the blade on and start adding weight in the rear.


No need to guess. Go to some place that has a scale and weigh it.


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## Motovate

Ultradog said:


> No need to guess. Go to some place that has a scale and weigh it.


Easier said then done. Jeep is not road legal - not licensed and not insured - operated only on my property. I would have to load the jeep on a trailer - haul it about 30 miles unload it , load it - and fiddle around while trying to shift weight around. I know the weight bias of the jeep - which is close enough to 50/50 to live with. Figuring the difference with the lever effect will get me close enough to start and then fine tune bu driving/using it. I'm working on a weight box for the back that will switch to the front if I switch the 3 point and I have a couple of ways to lengthen or shorten the lever effect. I'm going to start with known weights - Barbell, spare tire. Then using scrap steel I have laying around to off set roughly 300 lbs. I said 400 lbs to begin with but I re-figured and came up with 300 lbs. Poor math and up all night! Maybe some time in the future when I think I have ballanced it out I will haul it out and take a look.


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## pogobill

I think we'd all like to see what the heck you are up to!!


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## Fla_dogman

Can you measure the gap between the fenders and tires when unloaded then add the load and see how much it squats in the front and lifts in the rear? Then add enough ballast in the rear to bring the rear back down the the previous length? I do this when loading a trailer to (eyeball) the tongue weight. This should get you a ballpark estimate

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


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## Motovate

pogobill said:


> View attachment 65177
> 
> I think we'd all like to see what the heck you are up to!!


Sure - I don't have a cell phone but I do have digital camera. I'll take some photos but it will take awhile. I ordered a couple of parts that will take a couple of weeks to get here for a weight box. I'll photograph it when I get it hooked up in the rear. The 3 point hitch is from a place called T-Point hitch http://t-pointlift.com. They sent me different lift arms then the ones in their photos - I presume since he makes them one at a time he just uses what he can find at his local Farm store. They make them in 2 sizes Atv and Full size.


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## Motovate

Fla_dogman said:


> Can you measure the gap between the fenders and tires when unloaded then add the load and see how much it squats in the front and lifts in the rear? Then add enough ballast in the rear to bring the rear back down the the previous length? I do this when loading a trailer to (eyeball) the tongue weight. This should get you a ballpark estimate
> 
> Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk


Yes I think that will be one way when I get close. I think this is going to be a long term project. Put it together with the weight box now and try it out. Then when it is warm next summer I will pull the 3 point off and apart so I can get to the stinger and then run it in and out until I like what I see as far as length out front - then mark the hitch pin holes - pull it out and drill 5/8" holes. I won't know until then if I can leave the stinger as is or have to cut it shorter to make it work. This is about the only way I have to move the lever closer to the axle.


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## LouNY

Interesting read on this so far. Adding a 3 point to the front of your Jeep is one way of mounting a blade.
I went and looked at that 3 point setup and it brought up a couple of questions to me for you.

You have installed this in the front are you going to be trying to push that blade or lowering it and backing up to pull it.
That hitch will not take much force if pushing it, especially the twisting and side loading of the single point mounting.
All that he showed it doing is pulling' it will be much stronger pulling the pushing.

With a six foot back blade hanging 4-5 feet in front of your jeep you will be overloading the front axle, then adding weight to the rear to balance it out will be maxing out the rear axle.
Many unlicensed vehicles are because of age and rust, if that is the case your frame will soon give up the ghost and leave you stranded and broke in the middle of trying to plow.

If you mount that hitch to the read and pull that back blade it may work for you,
I would see worry about side loading if you angle that blade, or when one corner catches on frozen ground or a rock.

Good Luck.


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## Motovate

LouNY said:


> Interesting read on this so far. Adding a 3 point to the front of your Jeep is one way of mounting a blade.
> I went and looked at that 3 point setup and it brought up a couple of questions to me for you.
> 
> You have installed this in the front are you going to be trying to push that blade or lowering it and backing up to pull it.
> That hitch will not take much force if pushing it, especially the twisting and side loading of the single point mounting.
> All that he showed it doing is pulling' it will be much stronger pulling the pushing.
> 
> With a six foot back blade hanging 4-5 feet in front of your jeep you will be overloading the front axle, then adding weight to the rear to balance it out will be maxing out the rear axle.
> Many unlicensed vehicles are because of age and rust, if that is the case your frame will soon give up the ghost and leave you stranded and broke in the middle of trying to plow.
> 
> If you mount that hitch to the read and pull that back blade it may work for you,
> I would see worry about side loading if you angle that blade, or when one corner catches on frozen ground or a rock.
> 
> Good Luck.


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## Motovate

Wellllll - very good observations. It started out as get the 3 point so I could put it on the rear of my 2002 Dodge 2500 2wd in order to be able to use a lift pole to pick up and move around some concrete road barriers that weight 1200 or so lbs for a full one or about 600-800 for a 1/2 one. Reason to be able to block/redirect water that was running across a road right into my road and washing it out. The county wasn't/isn't doing squat. This is a every few year thing but when it happens it --- happens. Happened twice in about 4 -5 years. That is still a part in play if the jeep won't do it on the front or rear. Then I looked at my 2003 Jeep Rubicon just sitting there and started "thinking" might have been a bad move only time will tell. The jeep is in very good shape - no rusted frame issues. I just don't drive the jeep that much & have other rides that I use all the time. I was thinking of the 3 point on the back until I started thinking again. I found a front receiver hitch for the front and I knew it would work out better for the lift pole using around the house and might work OK for a blade on the front. I sure didn't think it would end up sticking out so far. And yes I plan on swinging the blade around and pushing but not digging all that much and using it angled pushing snow and cinders I get in bulk to spread around. 1 thing I do need it to do is push or pull fine cinder dust that collects in the front road ditch when it rains and runs off in one place where it collects because it can't drain out. Hard to explain I've got about 10 foot at the end of a big ditch that doesn't drain and just fills up the ditch with water. If I can't push it I'll swing the blade back to a back Blade and pull it open - once I get a hole in it water should flow and open itself up. Most every thing else is just blading out soft ruts after rains, keeping the driveway fairly smooth, picking up junk and moving it around my 1 acre. Since it is so easy to switch from front to back or vice versa I can use it how it works best. I think I can move it in closer- by 4 or 5 inches just by drilling a couple of new hitch pin holes. I am a little concerned with the extra weight but people have been putting 200 lb big steel front bumpers and 100 lb winches on the front and rear for years. Didn't have the lever though. I thought about selling the jeep but where I live it is not real easy to sell anything - 35 miles to the closest town. I guess I'll see how it works and if it will work when I get it all together.


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## Motovate

PHOTOS OF JEEP 3PT
View attachment 65349
View attachment 65351







View attachment 65349
View attachment 65351


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## Motovate

Here's the rest of them


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## Motovate

OK there it is. I'll see if I can run it down a bit. Clearly stick's it's nose way out there. Makes it easier to see what is going on. It will be used for light medium duty?? on the front - pushing soft or fairly soft dirt, snow & cinders. I thought there was not going to be any down pressure but it turns out there is some - enough that I will really have to watch what I an doing when it is on the front. You will see on both sides front - the lift arms are bent out at the tips. That is what gave me such fits and of course the fact they were paint glued together so there was no bearing action. I just did not expect L/R arms and of course this was not discussed in the instructions. I color coded the lift arms red and black so I always will know which side to put them back on. I showed L/R photos of the front receiver hitch. It is bolted into the front horns where the bumper was. I found some short lift arms that will let me make brackets to bolt onto the new longer front shiny receiver bolts on both sides and then make brackets to bolt onto the lower hitch bolts - I think there is enough bolt end left to make this work. They are Cat 0 links and I know this is the weakest category but all I am trying to do is create an angle to pull in both directions to help the receiver sticker to not flex - - - much. Simple enough to do and try out. I showed the wire harness & the controller. The controller pig tail is just enough to get the controller to the driver side window. It is just a bit too short for my tastes so I made an extension about 5 ' to let me run it up the left side and through the window with lots of slack inside and outside - works much better. Right now it's kind of floppy - I'll snug it up so it doesn't get snagged. I've messed with it enough now to know that I can't push and cut any thing hard so I will just move it to the back and pull it to do any thing tough. Keeping in mind It's not a tractor or a Dozer. In the back I can then take advantage of the little bit of down force it does have. To do what I need to do I ordered what is called a Middle Buster plow or some call it a potato plow. It will dig some and break up some hard pan so I can run a ditch row up and down - until I break it up enough to use the blade to drag the dirt I need to get out of the way. Might have to wait until we get enough moisture to soften it up. I needed the little plow to make some ditch lines to divert water when it is raining any way so it all should work. The 3 pt and the blade did not come with a top link pin & I did 't realize that until I went to hook it up so I just stuck a 3/4" bolt in for now and ordered a long enough top link pin. I think I should just have to unclip and pull the top link pin and the lower lift link clips on the hitch to drop the blade - if I block up the arm of the blade some what level - then just drive away. I saw a photo once of a trailer tongue jack bolted on the front of the blade that lets you just jack it up a bit to unhook and drive away - think I'll look into that at some point. I have that middle plow ordered and a lift pole ordered and a weight box with 3 pt frame ordered. The Pole and the plow are regular 3pt so I can easily move them around wherever the 3pt hitch is and over to my 3/4T dodge truck if I need it there. I already made up a long controller extension for the dodge since that was the first place I thought I was going to use the 3 pt. The 3 pt frame has a female receiver built into the bottom of the bracket so all I have to do is make a double male receiver extension for it to work easily. Plug one end into the jeeps receiver front or rear and put the hitch pin in then slide the weight box's receiver over the extension and stick it's pin in - the weight box hooks up to any 3 pt attachment. Some of the photo's show a bracket on the receiver hitch where the sticker goes in. That is a rattle reducer. It hooks onto the sticker then on top of the receiver - when it is cinched down it brings the 2 together and takes out all of the slack. I'll use one on each receiver connection to stiffen up all the joints. I'm looking at the weight box as a place to add more weight if I need to - for either the front or rear - to balance out whatever is on the receiver and as a place to stick tools or other stuff when I am working around the yard and I don't need to pull a trailer. As far as weigh to balance the front - there is no rear seat in the jeep but there is a sliding drawer set up that is 29"x34" ans slides right out. I was able to easily put 155lbs of steel barbell weight in and then shove a blanket on in and around the weights to take up space and provide some cushion. The drawer closed with some resistance so I think it will keep the weights from sliding around a lot. I took the spare tire which weighs 75 lbs and put it on top of the box and tied it down tight with ratchet straps. I ran the jeep with the spare like this and it never moved around - down tight. So right now I have 240lbs of ballast. Before I added the ballast I was running it around the yard starting and stopping to see if it was going to be overly tipsy. It didn't seem to be. I could see the front droop but was still on the springs - I could push the nose up and down and it was bouncy. I did notice that when I took the front wheels lock to lock in a tight circle the front tires rubbed a bit but nothing locked up. I haven't done that with the ballast yet but it does look a bit more level then before. I have 100 lbs of front disc rotors - I can put at least 2 of them 50 lbs and maybe more in the middle of the spare tire and strap them to the wheel then strap the tire down again maybe total of 290 lbs & I think they will stay tight OK. The shipping weight of the weight box is 105 lbs so probably 100 lbs there and the frame - maybe 75 +/- so I can easily put over 460 lbs on the back with out even putting any thing in the box - that I think is way more the the front is adding and way more then I will need. I think I will need around 350 lbs to equal the front but it will take a bit of fiddling around to find a nice balance. I started down this trail because I needed to do some dirt/ snow moving every once in a while, smooth out some ruts when it gets wet, pick up and move junk around the yard and get some ditches in a few places to divert water when the Monsoons hit here in Arizona. I like having choices - seems like I have more then enough now??? Thanks for the help - curious for more input.


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## LouNY

Yes, when you unhook your blade you will need some type of leg to support it off the ground.
As you have said it will be light duty for pushing.
Looking at the angles of your lift arms and the amount the balls are turned in the sockets I would say that your lift arms are installed on the wrong sides and need to be switched.


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## Ultradog

I hate to tell you this but you're not going to like it.
I have 3 point tractors and I have a tractor with a front mounted plow.
A front mounted plow has trip springs on the blade for a reason. If it catches, the plow pivots forward and keeps from wrecking stuff.
I have also used a back blade extensively.
Those work best when being pulled - not pushed.
You can bend and break stuff pretty quickly using it in reverse. 
I have a hydraulic top link and when I push backwards I always rotate the blade so the top of the moldboard leads the bottom cutting edge by a lot.
Pushing with your cutting edge in the lead will cause the blade to dig into the ground and nearly throw you backwards out of the seat.
It will break stuff behind my puny 38 HP tractor.
Your Jeep I'm guessing will put 100 HP to the ground. And you have added a 25 HP blade with no trip springs and not an easy way to rotate the plow forward.
You are going to wreck it in short order
It looks like you spent a pretty good chunk of change on that rig.
I suggest you put it in the back end of the Jeep and pull it.
If you want to push snow going forward get a regular snow plow.
You may not like to read this but I am not a man who sugar coats things.
Don't run that rig. You are going to wreck stuff.


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## LouNY

If this link works it shows how the arms are bent to get the balls to align when hooked up.
https://www.madisontractor.com/medi...ab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/0/70571_pic1.jpg


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## FredM

LouNY is right, you need to swap the lower links, right to left and left to right as they now sit.


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## Motovate

LouNY said:


> Yes, when you unhook your blade you will need some type of leg to support it off the ground.
> As you have said it will be light duty for pushing.
> Looking at the angles of your lift arms and the amount the balls are turned in the sockets I would say that your lift arms are installed on the wrong sides and need to be switched.


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## Motovate

OK - I'll try it. Are you all saying the bent end needs to go to the rear closest to the hitch as well switching left to right?????


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## Motovate

Ultradog said:


> I hate to tell you this but you're not going to like it.
> I have 3 point tractors and I have a tractor with a front mounted plow.
> A front mounted plow has trip springs on the blade for a reason. If it catches, the plow pivots forward and keeps from wrecking stuff.
> I have also used a back blade extensively.
> Those work best when being pulled - not pushed.
> You can bend and break stuff pretty quickly using it in reverse.
> I have a hydraulic top link and when I push backwards I always rotate the blade so the top of the moldboard leads the bottom cutting edge by a lot.
> Pushing with your cutting edge in the lead will cause the blade to dig into the ground and nearly throw you backwards out of the seat.
> It will break stuff behind my puny 38 HP tractor.
> Your Jeep I'm guessing will put 100 HP to the ground. And you have added a 25 HP blade with no trip springs and not an easy way to rotate the plow forward.
> You are going to wreck it in short order
> It looks like you spent a pretty good chunk of change on that rig.
> I suggest you put it in the back end of the Jeep and pull it.
> If you want to push snow going forward get a regular snow plow.
> You may not like to read this but I am not a man who sugar coats things.
> Don't run that rig. You are going to wreck stuff.


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## LouNY

Motovate said:


> OK - I'll try it. Are you all saying the bent end needs to go to the rear closest to the hitch as well switching left to right?????


I would say you have the front to rear correct just not the left to right.
The base end may have a slight bend to throw the arm out with the ball centered in the socket and then a slight bend back at the implement end to square the ball up on the implement pin.


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## Motovate

OK - I'm not arguing and appreciate the input. I understand why "snow" blades have springs and hitting things. I know it looks like I am a complete nube but I have also lived and worked in real snow zones most of my life with lots of build up. Where I am is not in that kind of snow zone. I get enough snow to plow a few times a year and short distances "just to make it easier" Mostly I just break trail if I need to get out or just wait it out. I understand you saying pushing with the cutting edge to the front where it can cut & running into things with the cutting edge can be an issue. I can spin this blade all the way around where the mold board is backwards and angle the face as much as I can with the the 3 pt adjustments just like it would be in the back. To me it is back blading in the front. Granted it will not be as strong as the back but it is easier to see and if I get enough snow to be a big problem I can always put it on the back and pull if I have to - it wouldn't be the first time I had to work on things in the winter. I also usually wouldn't have to "cut" the snow or push big berms. A lot of the time I can just brake trail with what ever I am driving so basically I can drop the blade down to 3-4" on a basically smooth surface. I think- I can back blade backwards so to speak to make it easier to get in and out - or maybe just have fun and help it melt away. Having a blade will let me push snow out of the shady areas so it dries out quicker and doesn't leave so much ice. Also the snow plow part is just a small use - I'll probably use it as much to smooth out/back blade wet ruts as any thing - in between being to wet to do any thing and dried out to concrete again. I'm not going to tear the jeep up. Right now the dirt is hard and dry. I turned the blade around and tried back blading forward and it seemed to do OK looked just like it was backbladed. Not sure if we will even get any snow this winter but I have seen the most snow in March more then 1 time. If we get to that point I'll give it a try backblading before it has a chance to build up I'll figure out pretty quick if it works or not. Your are right lots more HP then a tractor. I'll try it in 4 Low just so I can go slow - right now I think hi range 2 or 4wd is faster then i want to go.


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## Motovate

LouNY said:


> If this link works it shows how the arms are bent to get the balls to align when hooked up.
> https://www.madisontractor.com/medi...ab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/0/70571_pic1.jpg


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## Motovate

I've been studying your drawing and one thing I noticed is the springs / chains hooked to the outside of the lift arm. What are they for? On my arms there is what looks like a spot to hook a chain riveted to the frame. mine are inside the frame. Looks like if I switch the arms will have that on the outside.


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## LouNY

That is a stabilizer chain,
one for each side often on the outside.
When the rear attachment tries to pull sideways the chain becomes tight and stops the sideways movement.


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## deerhide

Motovate said:


> PHOTOS OF JEEP 3PT
> View attachment 65349
> View attachment 65351
> View attachment 65353
> View attachment 65349
> View attachment 65351
> View attachment 65353


I have plowed a lot of snow over the years with varied gear;factory and homemade. 
1. If you plow 'anything' much it will steer the jeep. If you turned the blade around and backed up it will do the same thing. You will have to put a lot of weight in the jeep to keep the rear wheels in good contact. 500 pounds?


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## Motovate

LouNY said:


> That is a stabilizer chain,
> one for each side often on the outside.
> When the rear attachment tries to pull sideways the chain becomes tight and stops the sideways movement.


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## Motovate

LouNY said:


> Yes, when you unhook your blade you will need some type of leg to support it off the ground.
> As you have said it will be light duty for pushing.
> Looking at the angles of your lift arms and the amount the balls are turned in the sockets I would say that your lift arms are installed on the wrong sides and need to be switched.


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## Motovate

OK - I switched lift link side to side- looks a little different. Probably better this way. Repainted the ends so the color coding is correct. Went easier then before but not as easy as I had expected. With practice I guess I'll learn the easy way but more likely since I will only use the blade front or back once in awhile I'll stub my toe every time


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## John Liebermann

FredM said:


> LouNY is right, you need to swap the lower links, right to left and left to right as they now sit.





LouNY said:


> I would say you have the front to rear correct just not the left to right.
> The base end may have a slight bend to throw the arm out with the ball centered in the socket and then a slight bend back at the implement end to square the ball up on the implement pin.


Also end to end is wrong, look at the lift link.


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## Motovate

OK - Works good as is. The bends clearly were not made for this particular set up the original photos in the add for the 3PT showed straight lift arms - I yhink the builder just uses what ever he can easily find for lift arms. Lift links are bent @ the bottom on purpose, came that way and they fit fine and work. Switching Side to side worked with the chain bracket on the outside and fit on easier then before and I was able to easily hook up chains to the lift arms and the jeep. I'm waiting for a few more parts and I will be able to hook up bracing from the bottom of the 3 point to the jeep with some angle to provide bracing for the stinger so there will be less side to side play. When I get that done I will send some more photos. Thanks.


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## John Liebermann

Politely disagree. The flat 3/8 plates welded on the draw links are what the lift arms are meant to attach. The way you have it configured now will make control of the blade much more erratic than it needs to be. 

Also looking at your hydraulic setup there is no "down force", only the weight of the mechanism and the draft of the cutting edge will provide down force. 

I don't mean to sound like a smart a.. but that is the say I see it. My apologies if I offend, don't mean to.


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## Motovate

I CAME BACK AND EDITED THIS AFTER SWITCHING THE LINKS TO THE 3 HOLES. OK I never tried the lift links in the top plate - I figured they were there as an alternative. I switched the lift links to the 3 hole plate. The holes in the 3 hole plate are 3/4" - the pin for the lift link is 1/2" and there was just too much play there to suit me. I put them back the way they were - I'm happy with that fit. In the process I realized that I have what appears to be 2 R side lift arms. I put both arms with the chain bracket on the outside. They come on and off and I can hook up chains to keep the arms from moving around too much. If you look at Photo #17 you can see the apparent differences between the arms. Maybe some day when I'm switching the blade out - I'll see if I can swap the left side end to end and see if that works OK I'm also not being a smart ass - the reason I reached out here is to learn. Now about the "Down Force" issue. I made it clear from the beginning that I knew there was no power down only the weight of the blade to let it drop. But after the blade gravity drops to the ground and stops there is about 1 inch of shiny unpainted shaft from the hydraulic cylinder still showing. When when I keep pushing the down button the shaft moves that last inch into the cylinder and it pushes the blade down and raises the top link about an inch and the front of the jeep moves up - again not much to see and feel but enough. When that happens and I push or pull the blade it definitely puts down pressure on the blade - although not a large amount - but enough to cut into hard ground - not much of a cut but definitely more then just the weight of the blade does. It has an effect both pushing and back blading - I tried it both ways. So maybe I'll call it Dowinish Pressureish. Appreciate any help I can get.


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## John Liebermann

OK Moto, Please keep us upto date. You have a very interesting project here.


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## John Liebermann

OOPS, I missed your question re "difference between where you have the links...". The difference will be accomplished when you end to end the tug links. The 1/2:3/4 hole difference can be fixed with a bushing. Those lift links are off the shelf turn buckles that closely satisfy the manufacturers requirements. 

I don't see the chains mentioned in other posts but they should be on the inside. Their use on a tractor is not to keep the implement centered(that should be the setting of the implement itself) but to keep the tugs out of the wheels. 

The drawdown of the hyd cylinder will be of no use to count on. What you observed is merely a result of some venturi effect in the control valve. 

Also because I'm as old as dirt I could not remember the names of the "tugs" in an earlier post and incorrectly called them draw links.


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## Motovate

John Liebermann said:


> OOPS, I missed your question re "difference between where you have the links...". The difference will be accomplished when you end to end the tug links. The 1/2:3/4 hole difference can be fixed with a bushing. Those lift links are off the shelf turn buckles that closely satisfy the manufacturers requirements.
> 
> I don't see the chains mentioned in other posts but they should be on the inside. Their use on a tractor is not to keep the implement centered(that should be the setting of the implement itself) but to keep the tugs out of the wheels.
> 
> The drawdown of the hyd cylinder will be of no use to count on. What you observed is merely a result of some venturi effect in the control valve.
> 
> Also because I'm as old as dirt I could not remember the names of the "tugs" in an earlier post and incorrectly called them draw links.


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## Motovate

The Tugs are what I'm calling the lift arms?? Correct. Because that is what is doing the "pulling" correct? 

I'm still not tracking on what is better about using the 3 hole plate - I thought about the bushing down to 1/2". What does moving the lift links up and back do?? What does changing holes in the plate do?

Since I don't have any wheels to get in the way and since I now have the chain brackets on the out side with a chain on either side running back to the jeep - equal length chains and equal tightness with an equal angle will that help in any way to provide for less stress on the hitch sticker?. It does seem to keep the blade from swinging side to side. There is a strong feeling here that I need bracing to keep the side load on the sticker from putting too much stress on the hitch itself - might break otherwise. Seems like it might help some. I will have bracing from the bottom frame of the 3 PT to the jeep frame with an angle and sucked up tight. So the sticker will not move sideways much - if at all. Seems like the outside chains to the arms might help some - or will they in some way tend to bend the tugs/arms??. Keep in mind light to medium duty - and slow going.

The reason the "Tugs" are the way they are is because when I sent the photos - every one pointed out the arms were bent on the ends and the way I had it was causing the ball joint to be at too much of an angle inside the arm. When I switched end to end they fit easier and had less angle on the ball joint. Clearly the guy who made this thing up just grabbed anything that was close and threw it in the box. I went back and looked at the photo in the add for 3pt truck hitch ( he also makes them for ATV's and the arms are quite different ) - the "Tugs/arms are much flatter - they don't look like the ends are bent at all - no where near to what he sent me. I just went back and looked at the photo's on the T Point web page and realized he sent me the Lift links he is using for the ATV which are mounted about like I have now. The lift links he is showing for the Truck are double eye 3/4" and mounted on the 3 hole plate. So in essence wrong tugs, wrong lift links. Probably why there is a 1/2" hole in the tug in the same location as the ATV. Guess I'll just have to make do.

Thanks - I'm as old as Dirt too and learning new "tricks" ain't what it's cranked up to be.


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## John Liebermann

Hi Motovate, it looks like you have done the work and research. The word "Tugs" comes from the old horse/mule harness days. It may be a colloquial term. 

_What does moving the lift links up and back do??_ Moving them will provide more right angle to the center of rotation of the tugs.

I loved this discussion Motovate. Keep us informed as you get to use this. Your research and test results will add a lot to the knowledge of all of us.


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## John Liebermann

You know what, going back and looking at your pictures I find that I don't know how this works. Somehow I've missed the total linkage picture. The way I look at it now the system is in conflict. 

I apologize for providing no-use info Motovate.


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## Motovate

FredM said:


> to keep it simple, if you multiply 400lbs by the length, say 6 feet that becomes 2400 lbs foot torque at the 2 inch hitch plus the weight of the 3 point, and that becomes a lot of leverage, it would be better if you could get the blade much closer to the 3 point to take a lot of stress from the front of the jeep, the front wheels become the fulcrum and with the blade sitting out 6 feet, this become a counter weight and in some cases, will lift the rear wheels from the ground, which wouldn't be desirable, if you can measure from the center of the rear axle to the mount point for the counter weight, thus for instance, the length from axle center to mount point is 3 feet and say the weight is 400lb, then that becomes roughly 1200 foot pounds because the rear axle becomes the fulcrum.


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## Motovate

Fred M. I finally am pretty close to determining my rear counterweight. I'm still using the blade on the front but it will probably be moved to the rear & back and forth. Trying to figure the fulcrum weight. The jeep rear receiver hitch is about 2 1/2' from the center of the rear axle. I have a 17" measured hitch extension from the jeep receiver to the weight box receiver. The weight box is 17" from the front face to the rear face so the total extension looks like 28" or so. I haven't hooked it up to the jeep yet and locked down all the joints but this will be close enough for now. The box is supposed to weigh 104 lbs +/-. The extension weighs about 22 lbs -So roughly 125 lbs as is before adding weight. So - if I understand how to figure this - roughly 2.75' x 125lbs = 344 lbs =/- roughly????? Call it 345 lbs with the anti rattle clamps added on. Correct??? I have roughly 285 lbs in the back of the jeep where a seat would be. So If all I do is put the weight box on the back I'll have roughly 630lbs =/- ????? Am I any where close. As I sit here and think about it I haven't actually figured the fulcrum weight on the front. I should measure from the center of the front axle to the front edge of the front receiver hitch - then measure the distance from the front of the receiver to the blade. The combo 3pt & blade weighs 400 to 425 lbs.. I just measured from the front of the receiver to the blade pretty close to 6.5 feet & the center of the front wheel to the front of the receiver is 2.5' So 6.5' + 2.5' = 9' x 400= 3600 lbs.?????? Front fulcrum weight???? Seems like a lot and the jeep doesn't act like it has 3600 lbs on the nose. It does push the nose down some but it still has plenty of spring before it hits the bump stops and I only get a small amount of tire rub on the front when I do a hard lock to lock turn. As soon as I back off lock to lock the rub quits. Am I anywhere close on these figures????? I need to offset 3600 lbs??? I think I'm off here some where. The 3pt is rated @ 2000 lbs and it doesn't even groan when I lift the blade - the jeep doesn't do a nose dive - it only settles a little bit - about like sitting on the hood. I don't think I can ever offset that much weight. Does the fulcrum weight change when the plow in sitting on the ground?


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## FredM

Motovate you are starting to get too technical with this setup, your total at the blade is not 3600lbs as you equate because the total weight of 400/425 lbs is not at the blade end, but over the entire length of the setup, just use your logic and everyday experience with the jeep, don't overload the vehicle, because if you bog it in a ditch, it will take some digging out.


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## Motovate

FredM said:


> Motovate you are starting to get too technical with this setup, your total at the blade is not 3600lbs as you equate because the total weight of 400/425 lbs is not at the blade end, but over the entire length of the setup, just use your logic and everyday experience with the jeep, don't overload the vehicle, because if you bog it in a ditch, it will take some digging out.


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## Motovate

Well - I was just using your example on figuring out a balance weight ????? Guess I was wrong.


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## FredM

I am sorry if I have offended you in any way, my original post was concern for that itty little bit of 2" steel that fitted into the trailer hitch and that had to take all of the up/down and side forces that would be inflicted on it when the apparatus was operated.

From the experience you have had so far with working the blade setup, you should have some idea of how much weight you will need from that experience.

Again, I am sorry if I have offended.


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## TX MX5200

Seems to me the down weight will only be experienced while not under load as the weight will go to ground once lowered and working. As mentioned, my concern would be addressing the torque while pushing, even if blade is flipped around in "backdrag" fashion.

Would be nice if ya could add 2 more receiver hitches at the frame ends to make it a 3 receiver hitch up. Would be more finicky hooking up, but if you could put them on bottom of frame extensions of the jeep as far back as possible and use longer male ends to attach to device.

The square tubing isnt high dollar and weld em up. Do same in rear then you can still swap it from front to back. For counterweight, you could make a cargo carrier (with 3 receivers) and just place some concrete blocks on it as needed.

Just some thoughts...

Other than getting into pricey changes, that's all I got. The other solution, would be sell or trade the jeep for a tractor which would hold value and last doing that type work.

If that trade solution is feasible and you have no other use for that rig....I'm thinking that jeep and the 3pt rig would fetch more than enough for a good used tractor.

Regardless, I hope it works out for ya. Sometimes we get over involved in making square pegs fit round holes as fun as it may be.


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## John Liebermann




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## John Liebermann

I wanted to get the pic in the same frame as the text,, but..

Motovate for my curiosity how does this work? It seems you have a 4-bar linkage between the pump housing and the implement and then again another 4-bar linkage between the pump housing and those turn buckles which I originally thought were to lift the tugs. But in looking at them closer they are way to fragile for that purpose.

I've been watching and waiting hoping an answer would somehow come to light. So would you please explain the workings of this? Somehow in the area of the top pin of the hyd cyl there is a secret I am missing.

Thank you Motovate. (Or anyone else with some help for me)


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## TX MX5200

I'm curious as to how it works also....other thought is to whack about ten inches off those arms and weld em up....maybe rig it fixed at level position at ground and do away with top link adjust. That 10 inches means a bunch, but that would kill resale of the rig with no top link.


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## Motovate

Thanks - I've held off answering until I had the bracing and weight box done. I under stand adding the extra receiver hitches - not sure I want to go that deep yet need to wait and see how it works first. I had thought about just trading off the Jeep - where I'm situated it's a PITA to try and sell anything and I still kind of think I can just unhook the 3 point and use the jeep - as a jeep. In the end I'm not sure yet if it is a good idea or just an idea!!



TX MX5200 said:


> Seems to me the down weight will only be experienced while not under load as the weight will go to ground once lowered and working. As mentioned, my concern would be addressing the torque while pushing, even if blade is flipped around in "backdrag" fashion.
> 
> Would be nice if ya could add 2 more receiver hitches at the frame ends to make it a 3 receiver hitch up. Would be more finicky hooking up, but if you could put them on bottom of frame extensions of the jeep as far back as possible and use longer male ends to attach to device.
> 
> The square tubing isnt high dollar and weld em up. Do same in rear then you can still swap it from front to back. For counterweight, you could make a cargo carrier (with 3 receivers) and just place some concrete blocks on it as needed.
> 
> Just some thoughts...
> 
> Other than getting into pricey changes, that's all I got. The other solution, would be sell or trade the jeep for a tractor which would hold value and last doing that type work.
> 
> If that trade solution is feasible and you have no other use for that rig....I'm thinking that jeep and the 3pt rig would fetch more than enough for a good used tractor.
> 
> Regardless, I hope it works out for ya. Sometimes we get over involved in making square pegs fit round holes as fun as it may be.


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## Motovate

So far what I have determined is that what I thought I was getting is not what I got. I think the Yahoo builder just threw things together to get it out the door and drug his feet doing so. The main structure seems to be solid enough but the lift bars/tuggs were just something he grabbed off the shelf. They measure 32" center to center on the mounting holes and seem to be much longer then the original photo's showed. The top linkage bar where the hyd cyl attaches is 15" ctr to ctr. The tugs are almost twice as long. The lift turn buckles appear to be ones he shows on his ATV 3pt not the ones he shows on the 3pt for trucks. They do seem "spindly" but for now work OK for lifting the blade. I figure if I use it enough to bend them I'll replace them with heavier duty longer body lift links. As far as the ram connections @ the top go - I've been wondering what the best way to set it is. I just stuck it in the middle hole - there are 3 holes there and only 1 mounting hole on the bottom. It lifts the blade just fine and is gravity drop. I think I'm beginning to understand that the pump should be mounted as much as a right angle as is possible so I should probably move the top mount back 1 hole. I'll try that one of these days. It won't be a full right angle but it will be better then where it is mounted in the middle hole?????? I did try mounting the links in the top 3 holes on the "tuggs". It basically gave it too much angle so I put them back to the original hole. I've got some more photos I'll add that show the difference. I'm also wondering if I drilled another hole in front of the chain hook and mounted the lift links there it would be a better angle?




John Liebermann said:


> I wanted to get the pic in the same frame as the text,, but..
> 
> Motovate for my curiosity how does this work? It seems you have a 4-bar linkage between the pump housing and the implement and then again another 4-bar linkage between the pump housing and those turn buckles which I originally thought were to lift the tugs. But in looking at them closer they are way to fragile for that purpose.
> 
> I've been watching and waiting hoping an answer would somehow come to light. So would you please explain the workings of this? Somehow in the area of the top pin of the hyd cyl there is a secret I am missing.
> 
> Thank you Motovate. (Or anyone else with some help for me)


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## Motovate

I'm probably not wanting to wack it up too much but I do like your idea of a shorter arm. I did finally find some shorter arms - one set at about 25" long which would shorten it by 7". About 75$ each. That would seem to move the blade quite a bit farther back. I found some shorter ones also but I just don't understand it enough yet to know what is too short. I think if I get too short of arms I will create a conflict with the top link. The top link that came with it is 15" end to end and I have some shorter - the shortest I could find Cat 0 top links that are 12" end to end. It looks to me that if I put a set of 20" arms on it they be too short and then create a conflict with the top link. But if I put a set of 23" to 25" links on it would move the blade back substantially and not create a problem with the top link????? It would move weight back and reduce arm weight at least a little bit???????




TX MX5200 said:


> I'm curious as to how it works also....other thought is to whack about ten inches off those arms and weld em up....maybe rig it fixed at level position at ground and do away with top link adjust. That 10 inches means a bunch, but that would kill resale of the rig with no top link.


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## Motovate

OK here are the latest photos of the set up. I added the weight box with receiver extensions that set the box back enough to let me open the rear doors enough to get in the back if I need too. That added about 140-145 lbs with out extra weight and that was enough to reduce the front lock to lock turn rub by at least 1/2 of what I had. Still rubs but not much. Total rear ballast is now about 425 lbs. I might putter around a bit by moving some weight out of the inside of the jeep to the box and see if the lever effect gets rid of the rub all together but I don't want to add any more weight until I have used it enough to see how it works. I did look at the front receiver to see about adding a little side bracing to the receiver and found that there already is a plate added to brace for sideways pull. I'm adding a photo of that, the side pull bracing I put on the 3pt itself, the lift link moved to the top of the tugs which just increased the angle and I put it back to the original position. I also put a mark on one of the arms 7" back from the front connection to see what a shorter arm might look like. Just for the fun of it I measured my Dodge truck and it is about 20' long w/o the 3 pt and the jeep is about 23' overall with the 3pt & box. Jeep Sure looks long but is actually shorter then what the truck would be with the 3pt/blade installed. Thanks for the in put - any more is much appreciated especially on what the ram and links should look like - 90 degree angle vs as some other angle??


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## John Liebermann

Thank you for the addl pics Motovate. Pic 3/6 explains a lot. I had forgotten(or not paid attention) that the top link pivots between the orange and that large turnbuckle looking link. It is more clear now.

However more than ever it points out your tugs should be turned end to end and the lift links should use the top holes. Where they are hooked in pic 3/6 shows for sure what your original concerns were using those holes.

Are you sure you are not over concerned about the weight. As was pointed out earlier the blade will not lift much and it is so fr out in front that the mechanical advantage it has over attachment points on the Jeep will disallow much lifting.

Thank you again for providing the additional information. Keep us up to date

PS: Out of curiosity what do use propane for?


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## Motovate

John Liebermann - Thanks - So I think what you are saying is that the tugs should be placed with the 3 hole plate on the top of the tugs in the front that way I can mount the bottom fork of the lift links in one of the 3 holes of that plate??? In the beginning several folks were telling me to switch sides because the front mounting ball joints were bent. I did try that several times on several days and the only way I could get it to work was to turn the tugs upside down with the 3 hole plate under the arm and the lift links would not hook up. I always had to go back to the way they are mounted now in order to get it to work. If there was no bend on the end of the front end of the tug - if it was mainly flat - switching them end to end would work. But they are bent. There is no issue with being able to lift the blade up.. There is one or 2 photos with the blade bottom at least 3' in the air. There is no issue in getting the pump to lift the weight of the blade that high. Please explain what you are trying to get me to do. I think I should be looking for 90 degrees - because it seems like people are trying to get me to achieve a 90 degree angle between the tug and the lift link?????????? With the tugs level I can come close to that now. But with the 3pt mount located roughly 23" from the bottom of the receiver to the ground - the tugs are 21' from the bottom of the arm to the ground when leveled with a bubble level. When I go up or down from that point the angle of the lift link changes. I'm thinking now that before I buy a shorter set of tugs I will drill a hole in the center of the arm in front of the chain connector that lets me get the lift links a little more into a 90 degree situation and see what that does. That would approximate what switching the 3 hole plate to the front would do??? But it would only be that way when the tugs were level. Propane?????? I'm guessing you saw some propane tanks in some of the photo's???? I do use propane to cook with and heat with - water and house. I live out in the "County". I Haul my Propane and Water but have Power and hardline phone service. Was that what you were wondering???


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## Motovate

John in this photo you can see the differences in the front of the tugs there is an angle on each of them but the angles are different - one is on the bottom and one is on the top. The ball joint ends are bent in and so far this is the only way I can get them hooked up - so far anyway. One of these days Ill take off the blade and either put on the boom pole or the middle buster and I may see about switching them end for end at that time.


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## John Liebermann

Good Morning Motovate. Thank you for your continued response, I enjoy these kind of discussions. I only wish I were there with you to attempt to work out these issues. 

_because it seems like people are trying to get me to achieve a 90 degree angle between the tug and the lift link?????????? _*Yes I think that is the objective, maybe not perfectly but as close as possible*. _
_
I understand the ball joint angle problem and maybe not the solution. I would start by insisting the tugs should be placed end to end from their current set. In my feeble brain it does not look like the ball joint angles change from what you now have . And no, don't turn the tugs upside down from what you now have, just go end to end on the same side. 

If you try this take a pic let us know what your thoughts. 

And the propane, I see a placard for propane on the trailer.


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## John Liebermann

Also going back and looking at past pics, I see an attachment point on the frame for the chains. It is closer to the center of tug rotation and puts the chains inside where I think they belong.


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## Motovate

That was the first photos and that was when several people were advising me to switch sides because of the bend on the end of the tugs. I moved them side to side and they fit better.

At that time I did try to swap them end to end and it would not work. It could be because the tug ball joints had been painted tight and the ball joints would not move around. The paint glued them together. The bend and the non ability of the ball joints to swivel within the joint would not let me attach the tugs to the 3pt. With use I think the ball joints will loosen up and move around and at that point The tugs may fit if swapped front to back. That was when the chain mounting points ended up on the outside. 

At that point I found out the chains were there to keep the tugs out of the tires. I followed that up with some other searches and found diagrams showing the chains on the outside between the tugs and tires. I don't have a tire issue but I do have a need for some bracing to keep side to side pressure reduced on the 3 point stinger that goes into the hitch receiver - so it doesn't just break the receiver off the hitch. I did that to some degree with angle chains from the hitch mounting point to the 3pt upright. That provides offsetting pressure when the blade decides it wants to go sideways. I also put angle chains on the tugs to a large sway bar on the front of the jeep . This provides some more resistance to sideways pull on the tugs themselves because the tugs have the chain attachment point on the outside. If I have the chain attachment point on the inside I would not be able to have a good pull angle.



John Liebermann said:


> Also going back and looking at past pics, I see an attachment point on the frame for the chains. It is closer to the center of tug rotation and puts the chains inside where I think they belong.


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## John Liebermann

Hi Motovate OK forget the chain discussion. However setting those tugs end to end is entirely possible. You have already proven by the way they are installed that the angles are OK. So far as the balls not moving they are designed to move the paint holdup is only temporary. 

Give it a try


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## Ultradog

I backed out of this thread last month because I could offer no constructive advice and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
Then checked in today and am a bit sorry I did.
Mr. Motovate,
Please remove that thing from your vehicle.
You are going to wreck your Jeep.
You can not improve it because
you can not push off the bumper like that.
Snow plows push from down low and behind the front axle. Snow plows also have spring trips to allow them to fold over.
Go buy a real snow plow.


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## Motovate

Thanks for your input. I think I ask you a question once before. I understand your concern and comments. As I've said before plowing snow is a small part of the use for this thing. If I just had a snow plow I would not be able to hook up the lift pole and pick up stuff to move around the yard which is 1/3 of what I need to do. I can use the lift pole on the front or the rear. When I do plow snow it will not likely be deep wet heavy snow. If I find myself in a heavier wet snow I'll likely switch it to the back where I will be pulling rather then pushing. But where I live now we generally don't get that kind of snow and this year we haven't got enough snow to Pee On. So Far. When we do get enough snow to plow it will likely do the job OK. I usually just break trail to get in or out or just wait it out. With this I can plow enough snow off the top to make it easier to get in and out and then take another swipe later to make it easier to melt off. I know you think I am an idiot but I have spent half my life in heavy snow zones on Logging shows where stiff bladed equipment pushed snow out of the way and Graders plowed snow with chutes to blow snow up and out over 6 foot drifts. So I have some idea of snow plowing. I know this isn't a Dozer, I know why equipment that pushes anything is attached back on the frame. I've even plowed snow with little pissant garden tractors with itty bitty sheet metal plows - enough to help getting in and out. 

What I've been trying to do is learn how 3 Point hitches are supposed to work and how to ballast the weight hanging off the front then I can learn how this set up will work on the front and on the back. I can push or back blade soft snow, cinders and smooth out soft wet ruts with this either on the front or on the back with some degree effectiveness and not destroy the Jeep. I might end up bending the front bumper some but it is not much of a bumper to begin with so no loss there.

I knew at the time I bought this it would be limited in what I do with it. I've got it now, I live in a place that it would not be easy to sell and I need to get my moneys worth out of it. It is what it is when you want or need something to do several things that it wasn't designed for. It's a Jeep - I can use it as a jeep easily by disconnecting a few things then pulling it out of the receiver. I can put it on the Jeep and attach a Lift Pole to the front or back and pick up and move things around the yard, I can attach a small middle buster plow to dig furrows loosening the dirt enough so that I can put the blade on and move that dirt out of the way, I can get cinders hauled in and spread by the truck and then move those cinders around with the blade where I want them, when it rains and things rut up I can back blade the ruts when they are wet enough to move and dry enough to stay and when it snows I can use it to plow my little circle driveway. I can get a rake and drag rocks and weeds and then run it around the yard and drive way to make it look pretty. At least that is the plan.




Ultradog said:


> I backed out of this thread last month because I could offer no constructive advice and didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.
> Then checked in today and am a bit sorry I did.
> Mr. Motovate,
> Please remove that thing from your vehicle.
> You are going to wreck your Jeep.
> You can not improve it because
> you can not push off the bumper like that.
> Snow plows push from down low and behind the front axle. Snow plows also have spring trips to allow them to fold over.
> Go buy a real snow plow.


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## Ultradog

I asked the guys on another forum what they thought of it.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=2219604


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## Motovate

That was interesting. Clearly you didn't understand any thing I said about the intended use, that was posted several times and took offense from my discussion. You just wanted a pat on your back from your buddies so you posted the photos but none of my comments. Hooray for you. 

You are a know it all and evidently you have no concept of what other area conditions are and no obvious ability to look at other concepts and offer usefull comments. I submit that if I drove this rig like a fool as fast and as hard as I can into heavy deep snow or into a rock I might come close to the kind of damage you and your friends predict. But since that won't happen I expect I will still have a radiator especially if I decide after giving it a try to just move it to the back and pull the plow with it and use the front for the lift pole. 

Only time will tell and I now know anything you offer is more to make you feel like a big man then be usefull information so I will just ignore you. Meanwhile I will be happily bopping around my little piece of paradise with a rube goldberg kind of contraption. By the way I've seen CJ5 Jeeps with snow blades pushing snow all over the West clearing their drive ways, other peoples drive ways and large commercial parking lots with no particular issues and getting the job done. 

While it looks like the weight on the front of my jeep would tend to tip it on its nose all it did is set it down on the front springs - not even on the bump stop as I previously noted. I did balance the weight in the rear fairly easily raising the front up to almost level. As I said it's primary use is not to be a PLOW SNOW but you just don't get that concept. After WWII Farmers all over the country took excess WWII jeeps ( smaller, lighter and less powerfull) and built rigs like this that they used to plow fields - (and yes they were PULLING them)- they made them work until they could buy tractors so the concept is 45 years OLD!




Ultradog said:


> I asked the fellows on another forum what they thought of it.
> 
> https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=2219604


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## Ultradog

I mentioned earlier that it was not my intention to hurt your feelings. Sounds like I did tho.
I told you a month ago when you first started this project that building this to operate off the front of your Jeep wasn't a good idea but it would work fine if you attached it to the rear and pulled the blade. I also said it was not advisable to push a back blade and explained why.
I explained how front mounted plows need trip springs.
Since then you have continued to try to make it work.
Yesterday I tried to explain that you can't push off the bumper, that you need to push from lower and to the rear of the front axle.
You seem to have swept all that advice aside and continued building a device of your own design. That is your right of course. It is Your dream, Your Jeep, Your money.
But what you have created is so 'interesting' that I thought it worrhy of sharing.
I hope you noticed that I didn't offer my own opinion there. I simply asked those guys what they thought of your design. They, like me, did not need to read your 'explanations' and only needed to SEE your design to know it would not work.They were not kind were they?.
You say I'm a know it all. Are those people also know it alls?
You have created a device which is fundamentally flawed and it's defective in Many ways. It will not work to your satisfaction.
Not for 1" of snow, not for leveling your driveway, not for pushing fall leaves into a pile at 1 mile per hour.
If telling you this hurts your feelings or makes you angry at me I take no joy in that. But I also offer no sympathy.
Put your device on the rear of the Jeep and pull it like was suggested by myself and others in the beginning. Then it will work and you will be happy.
And in the future maybe use the internet to learn how to engineer things properly instead of instructing the world on how to build a rather noteworthy failure.


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## pogobill

When plowing, you can always angle the blade to get the snow off to the side while pushing. If the plow has a tendency to dig in, perhaps turn it front to back so that it it will ride over small obstructions. You will see by the plate on top of the plow that there are many holes to choose from to set the blade position.


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## Motovate

You still don't get it. I didn't build it. I didn't design it . Clearly you just find it hard to understand - anything. I'm simply using it. You only need trip springs if you are pushing too much snow low to the ground and hit something. Do tractors with a blade on the front use trip springs - I've seen lots of old tractors with blades push dirt with no trip springs. Yes they are mounted like a dozer blade is mounted but there is no trip springs. I also see tractors mounting the blade on the back onto 3 point hitches and turning the blade around pushing snow and dirt with the 3 point hitch and no trip springs. Do YOU LIKE TO BE TOLD Mr. Know it All. You and all your buddies just Assume it will not work for anything. One of your buddies said it would tip on it's nose but it doesn't come close to tipping even without counter balancing. You think it will fold up when it hits the ground - you are wrong. It won't dig in and cut hard ground but that is not MY intended use. I sure hit a nerve didn't I mr. Know it all.




Ultradog said:


> I mentioned earlier that it was not my intention to hurt your feelings. Sounds like I did tho.
> I told you a month ago when you first started this project that building this to operate off the front of your Jeep wasn't a good idea but it would work fine if you attached it to the rear and pulled the blade. I also said it was not advisable to push a back blade and explained why.
> I explained how front mounted plows need trip springs.
> Since then you have continued to try to make it work.
> Yesterday I tried to explain that you can't push off the bumper, that you need to push from lower and to the rear of the front axle.
> You seem to have swept all that advice aside and continued building a device of your own design. That is your right of course. It is Your dream, Your Jeep, Your money.
> But what you have created is so 'interesting' that I thought it worrhy of sharing.
> I hope you noticed that I didn't offer my own opinion there. I simply asked those guys what they thought of your design. They, like me, did not need to read your 'explanations' and only needed to SEE your design to know it would not work.They were not kind were they?.
> You say I'm a know it all. Are those people also know it alls?
> You have created a device which is fundamentally flawed and it's defective in Many ways. It will not work to your satisfaction.
> Not for 1" of snow, not for leveling your driveway, not for pushing fall leaves into a pile at 1 mile per hour.
> If telling you this hurts your feelings or makes you angry at me I take no joy in that. But I also offer no sympathy.
> Put your device on the rear of the Jeep and pull it like was suggested by myself and others in the beginning. Then it will work and you will be happy.
> And in the future maybe use the internet to learn how to engineer things properly instead of instructing the world on how to build a rather noteworthy failure.


----------



## Motovate

Yes thank you I understand and will use that angle a lot and have spun it around and tilted the blade cutting edge backword essentially back blading and tried it. Seems to work OK that way with less of a chance of digging in and looks like it will work that way on the front and back.



pogobill said:


> When plowing, you can always angle the blade to get the snow off to the side while pushing. If the plow has a tendency to dig in, perhaps turn it front to back so that it it will ride over small obstructions. You will see by the plate on top of the plow that there are many holes to choose from to set the blade position.


----------



## Ultradog

Motovate said:


> You still don't get it. I didn't build it. I didn't design it . Clearly you just find it hard to understand - anything. I'm simply using it. You only need trip springs if you are pushing too much snow low to the ground and hit something. Do tractors with a blade on the front use trip springs - I've seen lots of old tractors with blades push dirt with no trip springs. Yes they are mounted like a dozer blade is mounted but there is no trip springs. I also see tractors mounting the blade on the back onto 3 point hitches and turning the blade around pushing snow and dirt with the 3 point hitch and no trip springs. Do YOU LIKE TO BE TOLD Mr. Know it All. You and all your buddies just Assume it will not work for anything. One of your buddies said it would tip on it's nose but it doesn't come close to tipping even without counter balancing. You think it will fold up when it hits the ground - you are wrong. It won't dig in and cut hard ground but that is not MY intended use. I sure hit a nerve didn't I mr. Know it all.


A moderator here told me to step back out of this thread. So I will.
I'll read it now and then though so please continue updating. I and the guys at that other site will be interested to see how it all works for you.


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## Motovate

John I flipped both sides of the tugs - end to end. The ball joints had loosed up some but they moved enough now to be able to manually rock the bars back and forth with some spray lube to get them to move with some force. I took some photos of everything you can see on the front now just how much the bar end bends are but they go on now and I don't think it will affect the way the bars work. As you will see the 3 hole plate is @ the front now --- but--- they are in a worse position then when they were in the rear as far a setting an angle on the lift links- it would cause more of an angle then when in the rear. Also the lower fork on the lift links will not slide over the plate without bending the threaded shaft more then they are already. I'm convinced the guy who built this thing bent the links out to fit on the bar and they didn't come that way from the factory. The good thing is that they fit right over the bar @ the hole in the bar easily and when hooked up with the blade lever they are within 5 degrees of 90. I dug out an angle gauge I had and I was able to gauge the angle pretty close. So they look square now and I think they will work better then the other way. You will see the chain attachment points are on the inside and one is higher then the other and the relief????? angle cut into the ends are still upside down from each other. You may notice on one of the chain attachment point a lot of chain wrapped up there - most of what you see is excess chain wrapped up to keep it off the ground - I just didn't want to cut it off and end up with more short chain pieces. It's still a bit of a project and I just used whatever I had hanging around to see if it would work. I now have some chain that I will use to clean it up. I did find some videos online of 3 point hitches and some with discussions on how to set them up and what is what so I can ponder on them a bit. With the exception of tidying up the chains I'm done with messing with the blade for now. I figure if I pull it off and set up /learn how the lift boom fits and works it will decide to snow but if it does I now have it wired on what I need to do to hook the blade back up on the front or back.
View attachment 67497


































































John Liebermann said:


> Good Morning Motovate. Thank you for your continued response, I enjoy these kind of discussions. I only wish I were there with you to attempt to work out these issues.
> 
> _because it seems like people are trying to get me to achieve a 90 degree angle between the tug and the lift link?????????? _*Yes I think that is the objective, maybe not perfectly but as close as possible*.
> 
> I understand the ball joint angle problem and maybe not the solution. I would start by insisting the tugs should be placed end to end from their current set. In my feeble brain it does not look like the ball joint angles change from what you now have . And no, don't turn the tugs upside down from what you now have, just go end to end on the same side.
> 
> If you try this take a pic let us know what your thoughts.
> 
> And the propane, I see a placard for propane on the trailer.


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## Motovate

As far as the Propane Placards go. Where I live propane is the only household gas available. When I moved out here I had a 250 gallon tank but when I ran out I couldn't get anyone to come out and fill it. I had a couple of the hundred pounders so I started using them and over time I ended up with 8 tanks. When I used up 4 tanks I'd load up and go to Prescott - 50+miles to fill them because it was cheaper and easier then trying to get the mom & pop places here who are used to 5 gallon RV tanks to fill them. Here in Arizona you can haul under 100 gallons of propane with out showing a placard so I could only get 96-98 gallons so I did that for years. I finally figured out there was no magic thing to getting placards for propane and If I had them up there was no limit. So I finally just bought some. I think I actually only need 1 placard but they were cheap and I figured if I put 4 on the trailer, front and back and side to side I wouldn't get hassled by John Law if he or she saw more then 4 bottles in the trailer. So now I try and go get tanks filled when I reach 6 empty and if I drag my feet I end up with 8 and running the house of of 5 gallon tanks so I don't worry about getting stopped. I put the tanks on their own dollys and use the trailer because they are easier to load and unload when full. As far as I can tell no law dog has ever even gave me a second look but at the time I started doing it there was a big wreck on one of the freeways that involved full propane tanks and as i remember at least one fatality. So at that time police were all over the place. I always tie my tanks down good and tight using 3 ratchet straps on each tank tied solidly to the sides and the deck. Empty tanks cost too much to loose out of the trailer and filled ones are Gold. It is a PITA but I usually only need to make a trip maybe 3 times during a winter and 1 trip in spring that carry's me all through until the next winter. I get APS power and landline Phone but have to haul water and propane. That is living on the edge in Arizona.






John Liebermann said:


> Good Morning Motovate. Thank you for your continued response, I enjoy these kind of discussions. I only wish I were there with you to attempt to work out these issues.
> 
> _because it seems like people are trying to get me to achieve a 90 degree angle between the tug and the lift link?????????? _*Yes I think that is the objective, maybe not perfectly but as close as possible*.
> 
> I understand the ball joint angle problem and maybe not the solution. I would start by insisting the tugs should be placed end to end from their current set. In my feeble brain it does not look like the ball joint angles change from what you now have . And no, don't turn the tugs upside down from what you now have, just go end to end on the same side.
> 
> If you try this take a pic let us know what your thoughts.
> 
> And the propane, I see a placard for propane on the trailer.


----------



## TX MX5200

I get the idea, but the concern I see is the 3 point hitch is designed to transfer load from 3pt connection at tractor to 3pt connect on implement. The lift on this is essentially transferring all the force to a 1pt at the hitch.

Being its lifting the unit without issue and using the blade will not necessary add to downward force, it will add to the TWIST force and the farther out that force originates the more it will be magnified...if that makes sense.

I knew a guy who used jeeps to run a v disc to build rice field levees...he had a hydro lift on rear of jeep to raise and lower, but that system was at immediate rear of jeep. Actually an awesome setup and he had GPS and a long rod that extended out the front to mark levee path with foam. After he marked path with foam using GPS and onboarding computer, he would drop the v plow and form the levees.

Expensive rig, but he said he could build em in half the time than using tractor. 

I think your rig may be better suited for rear and pulling if ya run into twisting issues. I wouldn't try in front unless ya flip blade around in back drag fashion.


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## TX MX5200

Ultradog said:


> A moderator here told me to step back out of this thread. So I will.
> I'll read it now and then though so please continue updating. I and the guys at that other site will be interested to see how it all works for you.


ultradog, I do appreciate your post as I do all post on here. I have to say that posting messages on another site with malice intent is wrong. Agree, disagree, provide input or remain silent. 

With all that said, I wonder how backing up with that rig would work with blade facing keep? Would be same as pulling the unit from the rear. From what I’ve seen plowing snow is back and forth anyway but you could still see what’s happening as long as you could tell where your backing. This would eliminate the twist and push on front end.


----------



## Motovate

TXMX55200 - -OK I'm tracking and there has been similar concerns expressed early on about the twisting forces. To try and offset that somewhat I put a set of chains and a link from the center post out at an angle on both sides that bolt into the frame where the receiver is bolted [email protected] the ends and tightened them down as tight as I could get them. They do pull against each other so if there is side pull on either side there is something pulling against it. I also put a set of chains on either side on the lift bars or tugs and snugged up the chains but left a small amount of slack so the arms can wiggle a little if they need to for the same reason - easy to take that slack out if I decided I need it tighter for some reason. In my mind this is like tying a car or truck down on a trailer so there is resistance to moving from 2 directions. I'm not fooling my self into thinking it will take all the twist out but it might take some twist out and it will take a lot of side to side movement out. The other thing I have done is put some anti rattle plates on the hitch connections where there usually sloppy movement is . These are U bolts with a 3/16" or so plate that has a bend along 1 edge. The u bolt goes on one side of the receiver and the plate bend goes on the other side and when you tighten the bolts you have a lot of pressure across 2 faces of the connection. I think that will also provide some resistance to twist. That is about the best I could come up with at this point. 

I understand I can get into trouble real quick if I try digging a lot of dirt or heavy snow. with the blade on the front. I have swung the blade around with the back of the blade out front and have adjusted the cutting edge back so there is as much back blade angle as it can give me so I can back blade from the front so to speak. I know I'm pushing the issue with any pushing/cutting from the front that I do. My expectations is only to do light duty kind of work. Pushing/spreading cinders around after the truck lays it out or gives me a pile here and there. 

When it rains here it gets real wet and everywhere there is not rock there is clay like soil. If I drive on it it ruts up. There is a short point time when the rain has quit and it starts drying out that it is dry enough to not rut too much and wet enough to backblade the ruts mostly out and then wheel roll it to pack it back down. That is the time I can use it on the front. Same thing with snow here - a few times a year we get enough snow to plow but not big heavy snows. When we do get a big heavy snow I can let it snow until I get a foot or so then go out and make a couple of sweeps on the drive around and then go back out when the snow catches up and do it again. That takes care of keeping the road clear and me not having to push great amounts of heavy snow putting too much stress on the single point. 

There are a couple of jobs that I definitely need to move some dirt and I will not even try that from the front. It is a relativity simple thing to move it from the front to the back before doing those. I suspect I'll use this rig maybe 6-8 times a year so if I want the jeep to be a jeep I'll just pull the 3PT/1P off.







TX MX5200 said:


> I get the idea, but the concern I see is the 3 point hitch is designed to transfer load from 3pt connection at tractor to 3pt connect on implement. The lift on this is essentially transferring all the force to a 1pt at the hitch.
> 
> Being its lifting the unit without issue and using the blade will not necessary add to downward force, it will add to the TWIST force and the farther out that force originates the more it will be magnified...if that makes sense.
> 
> I knew a guy who used jeeps to run a v disc to build rice field levees...he had a hydro lift on rear of jeep to raise and lower, but that system was at immediate rear of jeep. Actually an awesome setup and he had GPS and a long rod that extended out the front to mark levee path with foam. After he marked path with foam using GPS and onboarding computer, he would drop the v plow and form the levees.
> 
> Expensive rig, but he said he could build em in half the time than using tractor.
> 
> I think your rig may be better suited for rear and pulling if ya run into twisting issues. I wouldn't try in front unless ya flip blade around in back drag fashion.


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## John Liebermann

Good Morning Motovate, 

Your system as now configured in my opinion looks much better. But...(There's that word) I don't see why the lift clevis cannot be attached to the 3 hole plate. It looks like the throat clearance required at the 3 hole would actually be less than where the lift arms are now attached. The further out you can attach the lift arms to the tugs the easier it will be to control the hydraulic action.

Probably, eventually you will replace those turnbuckle lift arms with a fabricated 1/4x2 flat of a length designed based on your experience. 

I think what you have here even if it turns out to be of limited blade use is going to be a very good device for lifting. You will have to build some kind of gantry like structure. I built one for my Ford in HS Shop(70 yr ago) and had it until my neighbor forgot to whom it belonged and it disappeared.


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## FredM

John Liebermann said:


> The further out you can attach the lift arms to the tugs the easier it will be to control the hydraulic action.


And the less loading on the electric pump motor and hydraulic pump during lifts and better control.


----------



## Motovate

OK I am starting to really get confused here. I understood I should try and get the lift links to as close to 90 degrees as I could. I did that - tugs level and the links at about 85 degrees. Now you are saying I should get the lift links as close to the front of the Tug as I can get it even though that will not be close to 90 degrees. If I do that - tugs level and links @ maybe a 35-40 degree angle to the front. I did see that the angle of the tugs change when they move either up or down.

I know that looking at the picture it appears as if the lower link fork will just slide right over the top 3 hole plate. The reason it will not do that is the bend as it is now will not allow the fork to just slide over the 3 hole plate - it will barely start but with the link tilted to the outside the top ball joint will only allow the body to tilt out so far and the tug bar itself will only tilt in so far and they just will not fit without beating on it way more then I want to do at this time. The hydraulic pump does not have any problem lifting the blade up - it moves fairly quick. It's just slow & steady going down.

One photo that shows the side tilt as it is attached now and it is almost out of angle on the upper ball joint.

Another photo shows how high it will lift. I decided to put the upper connection of the Hyd Cylinder in the inner hole. That seems to work just fine and is in a straight up and down position when all the way up - which seems to me to be better for the cylinder then the center hole. 

There are a couple of photos showing the stinger fitting into the receiver. I looked at it pretty close to see If I could do something to move the hitch closer to the jeep.

















If I or when I decide to do it this summer I can pull the hitch and with a quick disconnect and pulling 2 bolts I can remove the pump from the hitch. At that point I'll have lots of room to drill (or probably take it to town to get the work done) another 5/8" hole for the hitch pin. I can get 4 to 4.5 inches closer to the jeep fairly easy. The stinger will stick out the back of the receiver (which is Open) 2.5 to 3 inches and not hit anything giving me about 1" clearance - there is about 2.5" of open receiver before it sticks out the back. That hole will also work for the back but there will be less clearance. When I get there I'll be doing a bit of front/back shuttling back & and forth to get the hole positioned for both ends. But it will be a basically easy fix and still let me use it on the back of my Dodge PU if I ever decide I need to do that. With it off the jeep I can weld a plate on the top of the receiver and probably box in the top and bottom plate for better twist control and add whatever other bracing it might need. Thinking about just pulling the bumper off completely and putting in a brace across the front of the Jeep frame. Possibly even going to a lower under the bumper receiver hitch to get the 3PT closer to the ground if that would help the situation. I've almost convinced myself to shorten the tugs themselves at the time I do the hole in the stinger. Cut the end off at the ball joint weld and cut out 5-7 inches then weld the ball joint end back on. It will cost $75-80 each for 25"-27" tugs. I'm thinking since I would have no use for these if I got shorter tugs and the ball joint ends were welded on to begin with I may as well just modify these. Possibly I can move the 3PT and the blade 9-10". Should help a lot with twist!???!

So here is the first "work " with this "Thing" and the lift boom for the front or rear and the middle buster/potato plow. Lift boom is the next to hook up.

Again thanks for any input.

LBM
































John Liebermann said:


> Good Morning Motovate,
> 
> Your system as now configured in my opinion looks much better. But...(There's that word) I don't see why the lift clevis cannot be attached to the 3 hole plate. It looks like the throat clearance required at the 3 hole would actually be less than where the lift arms are now attached. The further out you can attach the lift arms to the tugs the easier it will be to control the hydraulic action.
> 
> Probably, eventually you will replace those turnbuckle lift arms with a fabricated 1/4x2 flat of a length designed based on your experience.
> 
> I think what you have here even if it turns out to be of limited blade use is going to be a very good device for lifting. You will have to build some kind of gantry like structure. I built one for my Ford in HS Shop(70 yr ago) and had it until my neighbor forgot to whom it belonged and it disappeared.


----------



## TX MX5200

Question...should this hook on end of turnbuckle be turned downward to help prevent it from letting go when it’s in use? I ask as I’m not clear on what all is happening and was a quick thought.


----------



## Motovate

You are correct Thanks. Those turnbuckles are old ones I used on a camper and those hooks swivel round and round. I don't really like them it's just what I had when I started the project. If I don't hold them just right the hook has a tendency to swing around as I tighten them up. That is in the full up position of the arms and the chain has slack. When I lower the arms all the way down the chains tighten up pretty tight so maybe they also are doing some swinging around when I raise and lower them.










This is how I hooked up the weight box in the back - both ends - no hooks to slip. I also used them on the bumper mount for the inner tractor links to the 3 PT. They are 3/16" and pretty stiff. They are for trailer spring shackles links. I have another set of these links and I like them much better then the camper hooks. I also have enough shackle links to do 1 side so I just reordered a set. There are 10 in a set and I need 4 so I'll have 6 left that I suspect they will get used for something. I actually started to put the tractor links on today but I need 4 - 5/8 bolts - I used what I had on the back and I was short on spring shackle links anyway so I just stuck the old turn buckles back on and probably didn't pay enough attention to the job. It was a good catch - Thanks.





TX MX5200 said:


> Question...should this hook on end of turnbuckle be turned downward to help prevent it from letting go when it’s in use? I ask as I’m not clear on what all is happening and was a quick thought.
> View attachment 67601


----------



## John Liebermann

Hi Motovate,

I sure don't understand why the lift arm clevis wont fit over the three hole plate when it fits over the lift arm, but I am not on the front line and you are. 

I see you already have a lift boom and a good one it looks like. I think that apparatus will provide you more benefit than the blade. 

Keep us updated on how things are going.


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## Motovate

No doubt the lift pole will be used all year round moving things that have some weight but also things that are just a little bit heavy or cumbersome. It is rated at 2000 lbs and the 3pt hitch is also rated at 2000 lbs but I doubt I'll get any where near that weight. I think I might run into a point where the limited lift distance might be an issue. I'm looking at small atv style inexpensive 12V winches and I've seen a few of them that fit that bill. I think it will be pretty easy to weld a little flat plate on top of the arm towards the back and attach a couple of rollers on the arm and roller out on the arm and the tip to run the winch cable out. I can then run the cable out and down to ground level, pull whatever I'm lifting up close to the tip then lift it up a couple of feet and carry it over to wherever I need to. I have a junk pile that has grown up and is getting in the way so most of it will be stuff moved to my trailer to haul it to the recycler and out of the way. Not "good stuff" I tend to keep metal I can use to make things and cut up stuff that might be used. But it will reduce the pile.




John Liebermann said:


> Hi Motovate,
> 
> I sure don't understand why the lift arm clevis wont fit over the three hole plate when it fits over the lift arm, but I am not on the front line and you are.
> 
> I see you already have a lift boom and a good one it looks like. I think that apparatus will provide you more benefit than the blade.
> 
> Keep us updated on how things are going.


----------



## Motovate

TXMX5200 - I just went out to the Jeep to measure the reach of the blade and lifted it up about 18" just to make it easier. For some reason I always get ideas at night - I noticed the chains were loose so I grabbed the front hook and it just about fell into my hand with the hook the wrong way so I just turned both of them around and hooked it up from the top. When I dropped the blade the chain tightened up nice and tight.. Again lessen learned and I'll ditch that turnbuckle PDQ.

What I was curious about was how long the blade arm was. I measured 32" from the front of the blade rear cross piece to the front of the blade and 36" from the front of the blade to the pins on the front ball joint of the arms. Looked longer to me. I was thinking that since I going to do some "adjusting to the arm length I might as well shorten the blade arm some. But then it dawned on me I better be sure I could still swing the 6' blade around. It swings around fine now but it has to be quite away up or the blade hits the arms and then it only clears less the 1/2". Then I looked at what might happen if I shortened the arms. I'm going to have to think on shortening the arms. I'm not sure if shorting the arms 8" will not interfere with swinging the blade around. I could shorten the blade to 5 1/2' wide but I got the 6' because it would just be a little wider then the front of the jeep. Jeep is 5 1/2' wide at the front - tire track is less. So back to the drawing board


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## Ultradog

That's a pretty heavy Cat II boom pole.
Should lift anything your Jeep will handle.
I have a cheap Cat I boom pole that I've used and abused a lot. It has served me well.


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## Motovate

Wheelie Time! I did look at one just like that and it would do 95% of what I need to do. I decided to get the Heavy Duty Pole because I'll need to be able to move some Concrete Barriers around a couple of times a year in wet years. I've seen half ones which I think are around 4' and full ones around 8 feet. The half ones weigh around 800-900 lbs and the full one around 1200lbs +/-. Where I live it turns out that when we get a 500 year flood - which has happened twice in 12 years - water turns into a river and ends up running right down my driveway - up and over a county road and washes out the road. The first time I just lived with it after it dried up - the second time a few years later it wiped out the rest of my driveway. Ended up costing me $7000. County won't do shit because I am out in the low rent district. The water is only about 4-5"deep but 12-15' wide and channels right down my road. I think if I get 3 or so of the 8' concrete barriers or the equivalent in 4' barriers- (they are the kind they use on highways/ roads) I can set them on the edge of the road and the water will hit them and turn back into the ditch. That is what actually started the 3 point hitch venture. I can put the HD lift pole on the back of my Dodge 2500 PU and pick up the barrier and back it up and across the road and set them if we get into a high water year. I think the jeep might pick them up and move then around if I counter balance it enough. Probably looking to move the barriers 100' or so from where I would store them across the road to the edge of the problem area. I found the barriers for sale a couple of times but didn't buy them until I had a way to move them. They are not cheap but reasonable and a whole lot cheaper then the money it costs to fix the driveway. What I don't know yet is if the Cat 2 will fit on this Cat 1 3pt. The other 3 PT implements fit no problem.




Ultradog said:


> That's a pretty heavy Cat II boom pole.
> Should lift anything your Jeep will handle.
> I have a cheap Cat I boom pole that I've used and abused a lot. It has served me well.
> View attachment 67669


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## TX MX5200

Motovate said:


> Wheelie Time! I did look at one just like that and it would do 95% of what I need to do. I decided to get the Heavy Duty Pole because I'll need to be able to move some Concrete Barriers around a couple of times a year in wet years. I've seen half ones which I think are around 4' and full ones around 8 feet. The half ones weigh around 800-900 lbs and the full one around 1200lbs +/-. Where I live it turns out that when we get a 500 year flood - which has happened twice in 12 years - water turns into a river and ends up running right down my driveway - up and over a county road and washes out the road. The first time I just lived with it after it dried up - the second time a few years later it wiped out the rest of my driveway. Ended up costing me $7000. County won't do shit because I am out in the low rent district. The water is only about 4-5"deep but 12-15' wide and channels right down my road. I think if I get 3 or so of the 8' concrete barriers or the equivalent in 4' barriers- (they are the kind they use on highways/ roads) I can set them on the edge of the road and the water will hit them and turn back into the ditch. That is what actually started the 3 point hitch venture. I can put the HD lift pole on the back of my Dodge 2500 PU and pick up the barrier and back it up and across the road and set them if we get into a high water year. I think the jeep might pick them up and move then around if I counter balance it enough. Probably looking to move the barriers 100' or so from where I would store them across the road to the edge of the problem area. I found the barriers for sale a couple of times but didn't buy them until I had a way to move them. They are not cheap but reasonable and a whole lot cheaper then the money it costs to fix the driveway. What I don't know yet is if the Cat 2 will fit on this Cat 1 3pt. The other 3 PT implements fit no problem.



With all due respect, I think your dreaming if you expect to lift those concrete barricades with that lift. Remember that’s a 1 point hitch and weight thrown way back from the hitch. 

My hat guy has a 1+ ton dually diesel with hydraulic spear setup, which is pivoted at rear of steel bed. It’s a professional setup and squats the truck with a 1200 lb round bale. His rig would not lift those barricades 6 to 8 feet back of truck.


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## TX MX5200

https://www.sensorsone.com/force-and-length-to-torque-calculator/

Above is a site that has force calculator in respect to weight and distance, which may be helpful for you. 

I estimate that lift pole mounted to your lift system will be around 8 feet from the receiver hitch. That’s a guess but an educated one. 

1200 lbs at 8 feet will be equivalent to 9,600 lbs. Well over 4 tons of relative force on a class IV hitch with max capacity of 1200 lbs. 

To give you an idea....my tractor has over 2k lift capacity at hinge point of 3pt and i wouldn’t attempt to lift barricades with that pole. We had to use a large track hoe to set 2000 lb blocks as the 80+ hp utility tractor wouldn’t do it


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## Motovate

Well you are probably right. At this time only time will tell. The only thing I can say is that the 2000 pound rating of the pole is at the 1/2 way point 4' of the pole - how ever far that is from the receiver. That force calculator will help me. So first of - If man doesn't dream - man does not progress. And where there is a need and a will man will do as he needs too! The hitch rating on my 3/4T Dodge is a class 1 - 10,000 lbs. I may not be able to lift 1200 lbs but may be able to lift 800 lbs and If I can not lift that I can surely lift one end off the ground on either of them and skid it out. I spent 20+ years around logging shows all over the west and have seen up close and personal how lifting one end of something up off the ground and dragging the other works. I also have friends who log small tracts with medium size Farm tractors with a gantry on the back to lift the front of the log off the ground and skidding them all over the place. Is it the same thing - pretty close. Having said that before I saw the concrete barriers for sale I was working on a plan to use Railroad Ties. The weight of 1 tie is an estimated 200-300 pounds - maybe less. So I can easily put a stack of 2 on top of each other and lift or skid a stack at a time over to the edge of the road and put them end to end and a stack of 2 on top of each other. The water coming over the road has only been maybe 4" deep where it comes up and out of the ditch line and sheets across the road. I'm not sure how high of a barrier I'll need but I'm thinking a minim of 3 ties or roughly 30" will do the trick with plywood covering the connections to turn the water and keep it in the ditch line. What's the choice - do something or just stand there wishing. What ever I end up doing I have enough things around here with weight that I can hook up and move around to see how it will work. Then I can decide which is easier - picking up 1 heavy thing and moving it across the road or several lighter easier to handle things. I do appreciate your comments. 




TX MX5200 said:


> https://www.sensorsone.com/force-and-length-to-torque-calculator/
> 
> Above is a site that has force calculator in respect to weight and distance, which may be helpful for you.
> 
> I estimate that lift pole mounted to your lift system will be around 8 feet from the receiver hitch. That’s a guess but an educated one.
> 
> 1200 lbs at 8 feet will be equivalent to 9,600 lbs. Well over 4 tons of relative force on a class IV hitch with max capacity of 1200 lbs.
> 
> To give you an idea....my tractor has over 2k lift capacity at hinge point of 3pt and i wouldn’t attempt to lift barricades with that pole. We had to use a large track hoe to set 2000 lb blocks as the 80+ hp utility tractor wouldn’t do it


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## Motovate

Just so I understand it - Force is the weight - say 1200 lbs? I tried the calculator - I like those things - I use them all the time for gear ratios and tire sizes as well as mortgage payments.





TX MX5200 said:


> https://www.sensorsone.com/force-and-length-to-torque-calculator/
> 
> Above is a site that has force calculator in respect to weight and distance, which may be helpful for you.
> 
> I estimate that lift pole mounted to your lift system will be around 8 feet from the receiver hitch. That’s a guess but an educated one.
> 
> 1200 lbs at 8 feet will be equivalent to 9,600 lbs. Well over 4 tons of relative force on a class IV hitch with max capacity of 1200 lbs.
> 
> To give you an idea....my tractor has over 2k lift capacity at hinge point of 3pt and i wouldn’t attempt to lift barricades with that pole. We had to use a large track hoe to set 2000 lb blocks as the 80+ hp utility tractor wouldn’t do it


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## TX MX5200

Yes...force would be measured in pounds. I’m not picturing the drainage issue, but I hopefully resolved mine with building a berm and covering with grass.


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## TX MX5200

Motovate said:


> Well you are probably right. At this time only time will tell. The only thing I can say is that the 2000 pound rating of the pole is at the 1/2 way point 4' of the pole - how ever far that is from the receiver. That force calculator will help me. So first of - If man doesn't dream - man does not progress. And where there is a need and a will man will do as he needs too! The hitch rating on my 3/4T Dodge is a class 1 - 10,000 lbs. I may not be able to lift 1200 lbs but may be able to lift 800 lbs and If I can not lift that I can surely lift one end off the ground on either of them and skid it out. I spent 20+ years around logging shows all over the west and have seen up close and personal how lifting one end of something up off the ground and dragging the other works. I also have friends who log small tracts with medium size Farm tractors with a gantry on the back to lift the front of the log off the ground and skidding them all over the place. Is it the same thing - pretty close. Having said that before I saw the concrete barriers for sale I was working on a plan to use Railroad Ties. The weight of 1 tie is an estimated 200-300 pounds - maybe less. So I can easily put a stack of 2 on top of each other and lift or skid a stack at a time over to the edge of the road and put them end to end and a stack of 2 on top of each other. The water coming over the road has only been maybe 4" deep where it comes up and out of the ditch line and sheets across the road. I'm not sure how high of a barrier I'll need but I'm thinking a minim of 3 ties or roughly 30" will do the trick with plywood covering the connections to turn the water and keep it in the ditch line. What's the choice - do something or just stand there wishing. What ever I end up doing I have enough things around here with weight that I can hook up and move around to see how it will work. Then I can decide which is easier - picking up 1 heavy thing and moving it across the road or several lighter easier to handle things. I do appreciate your comments.


While I agree that dreamers make discoveries. Just remember, unlike Christopher Columbus, most explorers sank and got eaten


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## Motovate

Water has a lot more force then most people realize doesn't it. Sounds like your water issues are much worse then mine. If I had legal access to the property across the county road from me a berm or as we call it in the logging world a water bar would turn the water well before it gets too me. It would angle the berm over to a kind of shallow drainage that runs over to 2 large culverts that go under the county road - where the water should just go through the culverts. I say should because for some reason the County put the culverts in where they are at least 2' too high for the water to get into them and go under the road - they just stick out about 3' on either side of the road. The county road has been built up maybe 2-2 1/2'. Runs east to west. They cut in on both sides of & along side the road a ditch line - common - I'm sure you have the same thing. The issue is that I am down hill from the so called hi country and when it rains too much for too long the water runs from north to south. I live in Northern Arizona. It's dry most of the year except some times in the winter when we get rains and snow and in the summer when the monsoons come then we get a lot of rain in short time periods. Usually it runs off enough to not cause too much of s problem except mud. The county has the responsibility to maintain the roads and ditches but we are way out on the edges of the county in the Off the Grid areas. They do some grading but rarely pull the ditches and over time the ditches fill in so when the BIG rains come and flood the water comes down from the north it spreads out - hit's the ditch where some of it turns and runs towards the idiotic culverts and excess goes up and over the road to the south to me. I'd been here 5+ years and had no problem until one day the 500 year flood came- that is what the County called it - and the water rolled up and across the road to the entrance to my road and got pulled onto my road and became a little creek washing out most of the rock carrying it down hill. I was pretty lucky a lot of folks above me and below me got flooded out - 4' up on the sides of their house's. If I would have had sand bags along the road on the north sides they would have turned the water and I'd of been OK. But it had never happened while I had been here - so whoo'd a thunk it. I thought I might build it up with sand bags after it dried up but I was pretty sure the Grader Trainee would just come by and grade them off into the ditch. Then about 4 years later the same thing hit again and took out the rest of the rock... Then a couple of years later I spent a lot of money I don't have on rock and fixing my drive way and putting a big deep ditch on my side of the road to catch and hold water until it can drain away. Works good except the entire ditch system does not drain very well and then the guy I hired to do the dirt work left just enough of a pile of dirt and cinders on the west end to not let the water in my big ditch drain. If I can get this jeep to pull the mid buster through the west end of "my" ditch leaving the dirt/rocks busted up enough that I can pull the blade through that soft-ish dirt rocks to open and lower that end of my ditch - then when it does rain it might drain better especially if it is raining a lot. Basically I'm looking to be able to do what ever I can with the Jeep. I can rent a tractor with a bucket and back hoe to do whatever the jeep can't but then use the jeep to keep it all open.[/QUOTE]


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## Motovate

Ha!!! Who ate Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, Stoner ( Mr. AR-10) but you are right not all dreamers make it through all the critters out there looking for Dinner!!!!




TX MX5200 said:


> While I agree that dreamers make discoveries. Just remember, unlike Christopher Columbus, most explorers sank and got eaten


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## Ultradog

Hi Motovate,
Have you had a chance to use your rig yet?
I'm curious how it all worked for you.


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## John Liebermann

Ultradog said:


> Hi Motovate,
> Have you had a chance to use your rig yet?
> I'm curious how it all worked for you.


I wonder also. How about an update Motovate.


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## FredM

👁️‍🗨️


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## Motovate

John Liebermann said:


> I wonder also. How about an update Motovate.


John & Ultradog - 
Yes it worked & pretty good - sorta!!! The first real snow we got turned out to be the big storm of the year or rather a series of storms every few days- which usually comes in late March or early April. 14" plus snow which shut down most people here about for awhile. Enough to shut down UPS from delivering to any one close to me for a week + or so.

So it took awhile to figured out the best way to work it to get my driveway cleared. I used the blade cutting edge forward, angled both ways and then blade spun around which worked like a back blade. When the snow was fresh it was fairly easy. I did find that every time I angled the blade it tipped the blade down on one end so I had to get out and adjust the lift arms to level the blade, - back and forth and back and forth and it did the same whether the cutting edge was forward or the back blade was forward. I have a U shaped driveway and I concentrated on it first and pushing snow out of the drive way across the county road and then in clearing a flat area between the U drive where I can drive thru and park things and UPS can cut across to get in and out easier. A lot of it was learning what and how the blade would react and some of it was just messing with it to see what worked best. I did find that it was easier to just put the blade square and level on the front and just push the snow rather then angling the blade both ways - pushing and back blading going backwards - then when I was putting the finishing touches on so to speak I would angle the blade and push a little snow off the edge. So - yea I was real glad I had it to clear the areas. I also found it difficult to actually see the blade cutting or backblading out the front and that I had to open the door and hang out a bit to see how it was doing or stop and get out and look, but I could see it was much better and easier then if I was pulling the blade from behind. Works for me better this way.

I've added a few photo's of changes/upgrades.

























I did bend one of the spindly lift arms that were originally supplied in the kit and I figured out later were actually part of their ATC kit. I had decided to do that change out and had ordered the longer stronger lift arms and had them but didn't get them put on before the snow so I just used it as is/was. When it bent I shucke it into the vice and used my BFH to pound it out straight-ish then stuck it back on for the duration. I also changed out the camper links that I was originally using that has open hooks on one end with stronger double eye tractor links that I used on the chain attached to the front bumper/frame and lift arms. The chains on the lift arms worked good when the blade was on the ground and cinched up tight. They keep the arms from swiveling back and forth so much . But when I lift the blade up any distance to drive around those chains go slack and I lost one of the hook types in the snow ( I did find it later). I had another shorter camper type hook that I put on for awhile. I had this set of class 3 links for another project do I just put them on after the fact - works much better. I also got some big washers that I put on the link pins to take up the slop where they attach on the arms. 

So I'd say as it sits it works good 85+% of what I need it to do. BUT - I did get frisky when I had all the snow pushed out of the way I really needed moved and I decided to get into some of the snow - 3-4' piles- that had set up pretty stiff and blown into piles. I hooked onto something on the ground covered up with snow that I forgot was there and I was pushing just too fast for conditions - 6-7 mph instead of 3-4 mph spun me a bit and sucked the blade corner down and over. That was when I bent the spindly lift arm link. You will see in the first photo where it looks like the front stinger mount has bent down some. I actually just realized that had happened. It didn't affect any plowing after it got bent - at least I never noticed any issues. I've looked it over and right now I don't see where the bumper has tilted any. The hitch mounts to the jeep by 2 tabs - one one each end bolted directly into the frame and it looks like those tabs bent down a little bit. Looks like it might affect pulling the 3pt out of the hitch a little bit - but probably not much. I've decided that when I go to pull the 3pt off the front to put on the rear I'll just drop the blade off completely and take the lift arms off completely and it should just pull right out - al bet at an bit of an angle. 

I did find an issue with the tires I had on the jeep. Which were take off's of a couple of trucks I have. No issue at all with the tread - which is better in person then in photos's so all the people who were grousing about the tire tread killing me in that add on thread were wrong. But The tires were too wide @ the tread area. Same 265-75-16 size tires as I had on it before. What was happening is that the edge of the tires would hit the frame or something alot when I turned them all the way to the left and some but not as much when I turned them to the right and it got worse as snow built up under the jeep. It wasn't enough to stop me or even slow me down but I did have to watch just how far I turned the front wheels right or left. I remedied that situation after the snow went away by taking a set of 235/75/16 real heavy treaded off road tires I had on a Nissan Frontier 4x4 I have off and replacing them with less aggressive tires and putting the aggressive tires on the jeep. I did get to try them out with later snows and they worked better then the wider tires. 235/85/16 are essentially the same height as the 265's but not as wide a tread area.

Bucket list for this set up - I need to come up with a way to keep the entire set up from swing back and forth so much when it is in the air or just up a few inches. The chains to the lift arms work just find when blade is down and pushing on the ground or pulling. They are cinched down tight and less slop with the arms spaced out with washers but lift them up much at all and it is an issue. I am thinking I can gain some stiffness if I take a couple of 1/4" by 2" steel straps and mount them - 1 on each side in place of the chains. I have some 1" "D" clevis mounts - like you see on the front of Jeep bumpers welded to the bumper. I can mount the strap to one of those on the bumper and then bolt the other end to the lift arm snug but loose enough to allow them to rotate up and down and limit the side swing - or maybe get some DOM frame tubing and ball joint ends - that might work better. Might work. Have to put those clevis mounts on both the front and rear of the jeep for it to work for 3pt front and rear mount.

The other thing I'm thinking about is getting some 3/16" or 1/4" channel to replace the front bumper. It will be much stiffer and I can weld the receiver hitch directly to the bumper and brace it to the bumper better then what I have now. I think I'll look that over when I decide to move the 3pt to the rear so I can try out the little plow I have for a couple of ditch lines - I know I won't be able to do that with it mounted on the front. 

Right now it's just parked waiting for it's next iteration.

LBM


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## Motovate

5-29-21 Pulled the blade off and mounted the lift pole. Here's Photo's of what it looks like. Specs are - Bar itself is 6', 7 1/2' from tip to mounting pins, 12' from mounting point on the Jeep to the tip. When lifted to it's highest point it is 6 1/2' from ground to bottom of hoop. I set it up with a hook and chain that is about 12" and adjustable to 24".
























I did try it out today by lifting up an engine cherry picker up from a back corner and moving it out to the front. Not as simple as I expected mainly because I needed another 6" or so of lift to get it clear off the ground. I got it out front after trying to adjust some more lift with the chain connection and the pole tilt. I ended up dragging it with the tips of 2 legs plowing an inch or so into the dirt. I also found out that the top link is just a bit short when I unscrewed it just a little too much and it came apart. I'm thinking about getting one a couple of inches overall longer. I need the cherry picker to be able to easily take off the weight box on the back of the jeep when I shift the 3 pt to the back. So I'll be using this to pick up scrap metal stuff I have off to the side of the yard and putting it on a flat bed trailer to haul off to the recycler & get it out of the way. Hopefully saving my back some!!!


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## pogobill

If you shorten the top link, would it not give you a slightly higher lift at the end of the pole?


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## Motovate

Yes. I did try that. It did tip the end of the lift pole up so at full lift the tip is higher. It also raised the tip of the lift arm at rest farther up increasing the distance from the tip to the ground. It ended up being a bit of a wash because I would have to lengthen the chain to attach it to the back of the cherry picker. The tip as it is adjusted now goes almost to the ground but not all the way down to touch the ground. I didn't measure it but it looked about 2-4 inches off the ground. I started out with a strap wrapped around the rear cross member but when lifted it was too long to lift the picker all the way up off the ground. Then I tried to just wrap the chain around the cross member - several times until I got it as tight as I could get it but there was about an inch or so of slop. It got the legs up higher and almost off the ground but they still dragged - so then I moved the attach point up to another cross member closer to the center but still behind the center point and that would have worked to get the legs off except as soon as I lifted it up it immediately flopped over on it's side - too top heavy that way. It also let the top lift arm move all the way out on it's side so I had to open the jack valve and push it back down then take a ratchet strap and strap it down to a bottom leg so it didn't flopping around.

I found that when I lengthened the lift link it tipped the end down but that when I went too far for the threads came apart - several times. I "think" if I could of gotten the tip farther down to ground level it "might" have been enough to get another inch or maybe two higher and then the legs would of cleared the ground or maybe just touched it. Maybe not?? I did order a longer lift link to see how it works - at least I won't keep unscrewing it like the one I have now.

So it was a lessons learned session. I had earlier pulled the leg's that lengthen out so the picker doesn't tip forward when lifting at full top lift arm length to make it lighter - so that extra length and weight was no longer there. I long ago put some big wheels on the back to make it easier to move around in the dirt and put a 3' length of 3/4" threaded rod through the top picker lift arm rotating point so I could tip it back and roll it around. In the end it probably would have been easier to just use the jeep lift to get it out of the corner I had it in - then tip it back and huff and puff to just tip the picker over and balance it and roll it up front - or just tip it back and chain it to the back of a little yard tractor I have and tow it around. But I wanted to see how it would work to lift it up and carry it out. I ended up flopping it over on both sides and bending the threaded rod handle on both sides and some where along the way I managed to be the 5/8" threaded rod I used as an axle for the rear tires. Still works but looks funny! I think I just have to get a 3' -3/4" & 5/8" rods to replace the modified ones I now have and if I end up needing to move the picker around more I'll put a set of tires on the front to make it easier to move by hand or tow it. As a side note I've had this cherry picker for 45-50 years, moved it all around the country, lifted engines and any thing else that was heavy. Still keeps working even though it had just got flopped around a bit. It is an Old Harbor Freight picker.

Here are a couple photos - maybe it will make a little more sense.



























pogobill said:


> If you shorten the top link, would it not give you a slightly higher lift at the end of the pole?


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