# Ford 3.3l diesel in frame overhaul



## Ed Williams

Just to satisfy my never ending curiosity and facination with diesels, I have heard that many of the Ford 3.3l diesel engines have undergone an in frame overhaul, including new liners. Now I have many questions but have been unable to locate information or videos on an in frame overhaul. I have overhauled many 350 Chevy and 300 Ford engines by pulling the motor and overhauling using an engine stand, so I am very familiar with overhauling motors. Dad had to replace the 350's in his 26 ft tool truck every year and it was my job to have a rebuilt motor ready for install when needed. My questions for the in frame are how to replace the liners without a press to remove and install, machining crank if rod bearings are worn, crank removal, and how to replace the front and rear seals. I am having trouble seeing how this can be done without removing crank, and how to remove the crank without splitting the tractor. Has anyone done this and can enlighten me as to the procedure and possibility videos. I am really interested as I can see an overhaul in my future.


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## Ed Williams

I read in one of my searches that Ford uses a multiple set of O rings top and bottom to seal the liners to the block and the liners installed with a press to keep the liner perpendicular to the block to prevent damage to the O rings during install. I was thinking a long threaded rod attached to wood blocks top and bottom would produce the same results. 2 diesel mechanics here said to put the liners in the freezer for 2-4 hours and they would just drop into place without applying any force. They work on the big rigs and I don't know if they have done any tractors. I don't know the O ring material and if it would survive freezing.


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## Bob Driver

Liner Puller...









Critical tool for liner installation, if you don't want head gasket problems, is a Liner Protrusion Gauge/Hold-down bar kit...









*How to use*
https://www.otctools.com/sites/default/files/102370_0.pdf


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## Ed Williams

Boy, thanks for the info. I knew there must be a proper tool for the liners. Any thoughts on replacing front and rear seals. Ford made a split seal for the 300 that you could roll around the crank, if you could get the old solid seal out.


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## Hacke

Assuming you mean the engine in your 4000 from 1970:

From factory, there were no sleeves/liners.
The engine may have been bored and sleeved during the years, no o-ring, dry sleeves with a lip at the top.
You need to lift the head and check what is in there now.
You need to split the tractor to remove the crank and/or renew the main seal.

Things get clearer if you look in the Shop Manual I directed you to in this post:
https://www.tractorforum.com/threads/throttle-issues-on-1970-ford-4000-3-3l-3-cyl-diesel.41163/

Shop Manual direct:
https://www.tractorforum.com/manuals/ford-2000-3000-4000-3-cyl-1-65-12-74-shop-manual.6/


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## thepumpguysc

DO NOT tear into a diesel engine w/o the shop manual.!!


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## Ed Williams

I am reading the shop manual now to gain info, really light reading. I read from another source that wet sleeves were used in my 1970 with the 3.3l diesel. That's when I started to read the shop manual, to confirm that info.

I'm a real newby to diesels and trying to learn all I can so I will have enough knowledge to make correct decision if something goes awry.


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## Bob Driver

Ed- I'll go a little further than PumpGuy… DO NOT tear into a diesel engine w/o all the special tools. There's a couple of reasons it cost so much to get someone to O/H a diesel engine, other than the cost of parts....

1) The OEMs list most of the task involved in an O/H in their Labor Time Guides as requiring an "A-Class" mechanic skill set. That is considered to be at least 4 years experience. You're not going to achieve that by just reading a shop manual, unless you're just absolutely ate up by the Dunning Kruger Effect. That's why the "Top Dogs", that O/H $20,000 engines at a Dealership, make $40 an hour and up

2) Diesel engine O/H's require special tools (STs) that vary by OEM and even engine model. They are NOT something you can just buy at Auto Zone. Off the top of my head, here's just a few that I still have in my tool box and most diesel engines require, with current name brand prices (OTC, Snap-on, Etc)

Liner Puller - $300
Protrusion Gauge/Hold-down bar kit – $463
Front & Rear Seal/Wear Sleeve Installers - $530
Camshaft Bushing Removal/Installer - $150
Diesel Valve Spring Compressor - $75
Torque Wrench ft/lbs (Rods & Mains) - $200
Torque Wrench lots of ft/lbs (Head Bolts) - $600
Torque Wrench inch/lbs(injector hold down) - $100
Valve Guide Remove/Install Tools - $100
Precision Straight Edge - $100
Digital Precision Calipers - $300
Injector Puller Kit - $300

Not saying you can't do it, lot's of guys do. Lot's of guys O/H 350 Chevy's. I'm just suggesting it takes a whole different skill set, way more special tools that you probably don't have, and aren't in the Loaner Program at AZ


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## Ed Williams

I am very comfortable overhauling gas engines. I have all the special tools to do that. I am slowly learning that diesels are a completely different ball game. I have pretty much decided to go to a pro if that is ever required. Right now I'm trying to absorb enough knowledge on diesels to talk intelligently to a diesel mechanic and determine if everything is kosher, or wether I'm talking to the wrong person. Do you know what certification is required to qualify as a diesel mechanic. That would cut thru a lot of the bull.


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## Bob Driver

I believe ASE Master Certification requires passing 7 test (40-75 questions each) and a minimum of 2 years shop experience now. You have to recertify every 5 years. OEM certifications vary... Mack used to be passing 7, week long, factory courses. I first ASE Master Certified in 1984 and I'm due for my 8th recertification test this month, it's time to give it up, but I'm keeping the CDL I've had since 1979 until I can't pass the physical anymore.

I was on the committee that wrote the 1st version of the ASE Electronic Diesel Engine Diagnosis Specialist test (L2). I was the only actual working mechanic in the group, the rest were all OEM Design Engineers and Trade School Instructors (those that can do, those that can't teach... the "doin" always pays way more). Boy, did I have fun telling those pocket protector wearing engineers (with masters degrees) where they screwed up from a mechanics perspective. Usually got the same facial reaction as Sheldon on Big Bang Theory when he gets told he screwed up....


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## Ed Williams

That's funny. I'm a registered Chem Engr and had all the book lerning. I spent 42 yrs in the real world making things work with hands on experience that the design boys, who never saw a real piece of equipment, had totally screwed up. I know exactly what you are talking about. I've been told a thousand times that a modification would not work because it wasn't designed that way. My biggest gripe has always been that no consideration for maintenance or repair ever enters the designs I have had to deal with, like removing a 2500 lb AC internal condensing coil with 1/4" clearance for removal. Ridiculous. I will make use of the cold months to learn all I can about the new aquisition instead of watching the idiot box. Thanks for all the info and advice. I will defer to the experts instead of screwing it up trying to do more than I am comfortable doing.


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## Hoodoo Valley

One day, when the O rings let loose in my International, I think I'll have someone that knows what the heck they're doing as well, delve into that. I watched a youtube video of a couple guys removing the liners on an egine just like mine and they beat the old liners out using a block of wood and a sledge and I thought that this wasn't too bad. I was aware of the shimming needed to get the liner tops to the right height. My biggest fear on something such as this would be getting it all back together, then after starting it up and running it the first time, then there being a catastrophe of exploding grinding metal. You guys kinda opened my eyes a bit. Better start up a separate savings account....


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## Bob Driver

I've probably built over a 100 of them and I held my breath every time on that initial start-up. There's just so many things you can overlook, or just plain screw up. 

The last 10 years I was running fleets, the problem became that all the old guys with the skill/tools to do in-house O/H's were retiring. I just started buying long blocks with warranties. Most knucklehead kids you find on shop floors today can usually bolt the external parts on and drop the engine back between the frame rails without screwing it up, but they would be lost if you asked them to do a major in-frame.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Bob, I wish I had more skill like you! Mine's a 1993 360 DTA. No way of verifying the history of the engine but this one started out as a "Budget" rental truck, through Sears. No idea when they cut them loose but it now has 224,000 miles on it and runs absolutely beautifully. Fingers crossed!


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## Ed Williams

Hope mine holds together for a long time. Ran up big debt replacing rears on both tractors. Once that is under control, will start saving for OH that will eventually be required if I live long enough. 

On a separate note. Do you have any insights on how to find a qualified diesel mechanic in the local area without offending those not at the top of their game. Is it OK to ask for a written warranty on an OH job. I would think a pro would stand behind his work or wouldn't fare well, especially for the costs involved.

Also, is it better to remove engine and take to shop or have the pro do it all. Asking because would probably want to install new clutch when tractor is split.


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## Bob Driver

Those 360's were really good. That's a 400,000 mile engine in the right hands. You're correct in your thinking... The liner seals will fail first. Keep an eye out for milky oil on the dipstick. 

Good news is you can get a quality 360 long block with a decent warranty for around $4,500 if your core is good. I'm sure you have skills to bolt on the externals and drop it in the frame


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## Ultradog

A bunch of random thoughts here.
I hope I don't ruffle any feathers.
First,
I'm more familiar with calling your engine a 201 - as in 201 cubic inches. They made those 3 bangers in 5 sizes. 158, 175, 183, 192 and 201.
Not sure why all the warnings abiut overhauling a diesel - especially a Ford 3 cyl.
They are really no different than a gasser. In fact, depending on the year they were manufactured
both engines used identical blocks, crankshaft, cam, complete valve train, flywheels and peripherals.
The only difference was the pistons, head and fuel delivery system.
These engines are parent bore, meaning they were not sleeved from the factory. To completely manufacture one requires boring and sleeving back to standard.
Two types of sleeves are commonly used. One that is stepped at the bottom of the bore and one that us flanged at the top. Both types of sleeves are dry meaning no seals top or bottom.
On the 3 cyl diesels it is NOT recommended that you over bore and repiston. Because of cavitation problems they had where the water jacket eroded into the cylinder wall.
This is not the case with gas engines as they did not have the erosion problems.
I think, depending on the amount of wear in the bores and condition of the crank an inframe overhaul is an acceptable way to get a few thousand more hours out of a tired engine at relatively low cost.
The cranks are extremely rugged with 4 mains on a 3 cyl and massive journal/bearing surface area. I have known of several of these engines with upwards of 10K hours that the crank journals were still within recommended specs and did not need to be ground. They were usually remanned because of the above mentioned cavitation/porosity problems and had to be sleeved.
If you can overhaul a gasser you can just as easily overhaul one of these diesels and aside from working on the injectors and pump NO special tools or skills are required.
The photo below shows my own 201 D on my makeshift bench after putting the head on yesterday.
It had been sleeved before so I just replaced them then had the deck touched and the bores checked with a hone for wrinkles after I pushed them in - Dry ice and a block of oak and 3 lb hammer. I pulled new cam bearings in with a puller I made.
The crank I used was fine but all new bearings, gaskets and seals.
The pump and injectors are relatively new from an engine that sucked something into #2 cyl.
This block was a 192 ci gasser.
It is the block and valve train from one engine and the crank, head and diesel fuel system from a couple of others.


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## Bob Driver

A bunch of random responses here.

*Engine Names*

When I first started out, both Cummins and Mack on-highway engines where referred to by their alleged HP output. “350 Cummins”(NTC 350, 855 Cu In), “237 Mack” (ENDT-675, 675 Cu In). Detroit used “Series Codes”… 6-71 = 6 cylinder, in-line, 71 cu in per cylinder. 8V71 = 8 cylinder, V-block, 71 cu in per cylinder. These were 2-strokes and had Blowers, but not turbos. 6-71T = 6 cylinder, in-line, 71 cu in per cylinder, turbocharged. 8V71TA = 8 cylinder, V-block, 71 cu in per cylinder, turbocharged, aftercooler. When Detroit switched to 4-strokes with their “Series 60”, they started using liters instead of cubic inches. They could come as an 11.1L (677 CI), a 12.7L (755 CI), or a 14L (854 CI). Everything eventually became liters…. M11, N14, Cummins. MX13, MX15 PACCAR. DD13, DD15 Detroit. Notice everybody seems to have two block sizes? Mechanics now say… “Cummins small block”… “Detroit big block”



*Automotive Block Diesel Engines*

As the OEMs figured out there was a market for smaller displacement diesel engines on the highways, they started building engines based on an automotive style block. GM damn near, single-handedly, killed the small diesel engine in cars and pickups in the process. In my opinion, they managed to produce the absolute worst diesel engine ever made. The 6.5L V-8… 350 Chevy block, diesel heads with the same number of head bolts as the gas version (20 to 1 compression vs 9 to 1), pencil injectors with glow plugs.. Now what could go wrong with that? Eats starters, Blows head gaskets if it sees 215 degrees, and good luck getting the thing to start at anything below 20 degrees. Our military in it's infinite wisdom, and a sweetheart deal with AM General, once owned over 500,000 of these PITA's in Humvees. Thank God other people (other than the knuckleheads at GM) decided to get in the game and they put some good small engines out there (6BT, 6.6L Duramax, 7.3L Power Stroke). You’re right… Some aren’t any more complicated to O/H than a typical gas engine, but then they are for the most part B50-400,000 engines
https://mechanicguides.com/cummins-vs-powerstroke-vs-duramax-the-heavy-duty-diesel-battle/

*Diesel Engine “B-Life Ratings”*

If you listen to the Big Boys building diesel engines, every one of them will tell you… “Our engines are the toughest out there”. I was always taught if you can back it up, it ain’t BS, it’s fact… Well, in order to separate the facts, from the BS about diesel engine durability, they came up with “B-Life" ratings”.

B50-400,000 = 50% of all those specific model engines run 400,000 miles without an internal failure (50% major internal failure rate @ 400K). In other words, statistically half make it to 400,000 miles and half don’t... The "B50 Number" is your "average" mileage-life expectancy for that specific engine model.

The top OTR engines today cost $25,000, or more, to repair or replace…. When you’re talking that kind of money, you better be looking at B10-1M engines. 90% run at least 1,000,000 miles (10% failure rate @ 1M miles). The OEMs hate B-life ratings, but there out there if you're sophisticated enough to know where to look for them. As you would expect, B10-1M engines are slightly more complex than automotive style diesel engines to achieve that level of durability and require an enhanced skill set to perform the necessary maintenance task to deliver that level of performance.

I once asked one of my better Fleet Managers, in a big meeting, to explain a B50 number…. He said "That's the average mileage to expect when that model engine usually goes BLOUIE"

https://www.ttnews.com/articles/gauging-engines-life-expectancy-starts-b-life-rating


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