# Looking for an older, tougher garden tractor, which brand?



## packrat

I've decided recently that I need to find an older, more durable tractor, something I can use in roughly a 1/3 acre or so sized garden. 

Right now my options are between a Simplicity 7116 and a Bolens 1250.
Both are hydrostatic drive, both have been stored indoors since new. 
Both are all original, having run in decades but are clean and complete, just forgotten by time. The sitting part don't bother me much, most likely its just tune up issues to get them going and some new rubber.
I'd be looking at finding a three point hitch, a plow, and a disc for this.

The guy with the 1250 wants $1500 firm for the 1250, which has a 'Johnson' brand bucket loader on the front.
The seller with the Simplicity 7116H wants $650 and it has no attachements other than a rear lift bracket and arm. The hitch for that one looks fairly simple to make, and basically all I'd want to find is a sleeve hitch plow and disc. 

Or, either one would work if I found a PTO tiller to match.

My question is, is the Bolens that much better of a machine or are they fairly equally matched? The Bolens would be a more expensive machine to fix up and find parts for, the Simplicity has a more common 16hp Briggs Stratton engine, and its got more hp. Having a bucket up front though would be nice, but I'm not sure I like the foot controled trans.

The Bolens does look a lot bigger too.

What is the better or tougher machine? 
A web search turned up a few issues with the Bolens front end or cross member breaking, and the older Wisconsin 12hp may be hard to find parts for. 

The Simplicity has a belt in its final drive, vs. a direct drive on the Bolens. 
Is the Simplicity a comparable machine? 
Do either of these prices seem normal for an older machine? 

No pics yet, I don't own either one yet. Condition wise both are about equal, both just look like older machines that were put away and forgotten. No rust, no damage, just sitting issues. Neither look particularly worn or worn out, all moving parts seem fine, steering and tire condition shows no obvious issues. Both were stored for over 25 years.

I also looked at a few running machines but all had major issues or were just plain rough looking or stored outdoors for many years. 

I don't cut grass, so a deck is not important, although the 1250 Bolens comes with a deck, which I will never use.


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## Hoodoo Valley

First off, and I think most everyone will agree here, both are excellent brands. I think either way you went, you'd be happy, though that front end loader is a real plus in my opinion. For me, the foot actuated transmission is the only way to go, if you're doing a lot of direction changes or speeding up and slowing down, and a shaft drive is hands down stronger than a belt drive.


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## bontai Joe

Both pretty good machines, but I'd pick the Bolens. Just my opinion, but I think the Bolens is a bit more "heavy duty" as far as the frame and tranny are built. Lots and LOTS of attachments for the Bolens are out there.


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## jhngardner367

While I like Bolens,You made a valid point about parts. If the machine is going to be used frequently,I would go with the Simplicity,simply for ease of getting parts.
I have a Bolens,that I dearly love,and I have a Simplicity 3314v,with 42" deck/snowcaster/tiller/ blade,that does most of the heavy stuff,( again,because of the ease of parts availability),that the JD 317 doesn't.
I've found several attachments available for both tractors.
The final choice is yours.


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## packrat

I did some searching around for general parts availability locally, there was almost nothing available for the Bolens 12hp, one place said they could match up carb parts but the tune up parts were non existant. All but one small engine shop had points, coils, or what ever I may need for the Simplicity. Brand specific parts for either are nil. 
There's no Simplicity or old Bolens dealer anywhere around here, only a John Deere dealer. 
I talked to a few local guys and did some online searching, and my concern is for the front end on the Bolens, one shop here had two busted front cross members that they were either welding up or replacing on similar models. Neither of those had loaders on them. 
I guess my biggest concern is breaking something that renders a machine useless or unrepairable. The rear end of the Bolens looks a lot tougher than the Simplicity, and there's no belt in the mix. The Bolens also looks more stable, its a lot wider and a bit longer than the Simplicity. 

Do the prices sound fair for two somewhat clean old machines that have been sitting? 

I figure I'm taking a bit of a chance with either one but my only concern is on the OEM type parts, the motor is no big deal to me, if either motor turned up bad, I'd just find a suitable replacement. Its the driveline that would get expensive to fix.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Packrat, if you were concerned about parts, then you should go with a brand like John Deere. John Deere has a few models that routinely have issues, but they are generally very easy to get parts for.


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## jhngardner367

I've never had an issue with the belt system on the Simplicity. As for parts,I can get almost any of them at Partstree.com. if needed.
At $650 it's a steal ! Most heavy-duty Simplicity tractors,around here start at $500,and that's for a really well-used one !
The last 7116 I saw was sold for $1300,with just the deck.


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## packrat

tractor beam said:


> Packrat, if you were concerned about parts, then you should go with a brand like John Deere. John Deere has a few models that routinely have issues, but they are generally very easy to get parts for.


All of the JD models I've looked at have been primarily belt driven machines, I looked at a few 110, 112 models, and one that I was told was a 212.
All had the belt drive off the right side with a manual variable drive. The 112 was the cleanest needing only some body work on the front edge of the hood. 
However, each of those sellers all thought they owned gold, the guy with the 110 wanted $1500 for a bare tractor, it ran, but had nothing going for it other than being a JD and it ran. The 212 ran, smoked a bit on start up, and one of the front rims had a seized bearing that had spun in the rim, wallowing out the rim itself. 
The 112 ran but not well, the seller took a battery, some gas, and cranked it over, it sputtered and ran but wouldn't idle well. The tank smelled like stale gas. It did have all new tires, two rear wheel weights, a deck that was a bit rusty, the top dust cover was perforated a bit, and the deck wheels were worn down to nothing. The blades were also well worn. It also came with a snow plow that looked home made. He wanted $1000 for that one. 
If I was looking for a wagon puller that just looked good, the 112 would be fine, but its got no hitch, and no hydraulics. 

My intentions are to pull a small plow and disc in the garden, the 112 just didn't look like that kind of machine. 

Not being very familiar with JD models, is there a model comparable to the 1250 Bolens?


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## packrat

jhngardner367 said:


> I've never had an issue with the belt system on the Simplicity. As for parts,I can get almost any of them at Partstree.com. if needed.
> At $650 it's a steal ! Most heavy-duty Simplicity tractors,around here start at $500,and that's for a really well-used one !
> The last 7116 I saw was sold for $1300,with just the deck.


I sort of like the Simplicity, it looks easier to work on to me. 
My biggest concern is slippage. A buddy used to own an older model, I believe a 3410S, and had constant issues with the belt slipping when he tried to work it hard in the garden he had, and he wasn't doing anything near the size of my garden. 

The Simplicity is the cleanest looking one I've looked at so far, even the paint is decent on it yet. 

I also looked at another Simplicity today, this one is a 7117 which threw a rod and the owner replaced the engine with a new or rebuilt 16hp Briggs Stratton single cylinder engine. It starts right up but to shut it down you have to open the hood and pull the plug wire. He said he couldn't hook up the ignition switch any other way. It too looks great, its also got four brand new Titan tires, chains, a snow plow, weight box, and four wheel weights. Its also got a brand new battery and comes with a box of spare parts, belts, filters, etc, plus a shop manual. He wants $1200 and won't budge on the price. 

Here's the kicker on the Simplicity machines, none of these have a rear lift. I've been looking on line, and the sleeve hitch looks easy to build, so no big deal there, but what lifts the hitch on these? The 7117 I looked at has a pivoting arm in the back, but it just flops up and down, its not connected to anything. 
Do you have to add a hydraulic cylinder or does it connect to the deck lift somehow?


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## Hoodoo Valley

packrat said:


> All of the JD models I've looked at have been primarily belt driven machines, I looked at a few 110, 112 models, and one that I was told was a 212.
> All had the belt drive off the right side with a manual variable drive. The 112 was the cleanest needing only some body work on the front edge of the hood.
> However, each of those sellers all thought they owned gold, the guy with the 110 wanted $1500 for a bare tractor, it ran, but had nothing going for it other than being a JD and it ran. The 212 ran, smoked a bit on start up, and one of the front rims had a seized bearing that had spun in the rim, wallowing out the rim itself.
> The 112 ran but not well, the seller took a battery, some gas, and cranked it over, it sputtered and ran but wouldn't idle well. The tank smelled like stale gas. It did have all new tires, two rear wheel weights, a deck that was a bit rusty, the top dust cover was perforated a bit, and the deck wheels were worn down to nothing. The blades were also well worn. It also came with a snow plow that looked home made. He wanted $1000 for that one.
> If I was looking for a wagon puller that just looked good, the 112 would be fine, but its got no hitch, and no hydraulics.
> 
> My intentions are to pull a small plow and disc in the garden, the 112 just didn't look like that kind of machine.
> 
> Not being very familiar with JD models, is there a model comparable to the 1250 Bolens?


No, I hear you. It's insane. The 316 is a mighty stout machine but has the Onan engine which is very hard to get parts for and as you already are finding out, are a retirement for sellers. I'm thinking that the Simplicity might be your best bet at this point. After looking to update one of my John Deere machines, I wound up getting quite a bit more tractor in a Kubota for the same money.


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## packrat

I guess at this point I should list the models I have looked at so far:

Bolens 1250 (with loader)
Simplicity 7116
Simplicity 7117 (with 16hp briggs and new tires)
JD 110
JD 112
JD 212?

Cub Cadet 100 (ran but had a broken grill and a 3x4 chunk cut out of the left frame next to the starter).

Jacobsen GT16, (Kohler 16hp, hydraulic everthing, wet lines front and back.) This one was an electrical mess, wires everywhere, the owner couldn't get it to crank over, but said it ran this summer. The tires all leak from cracks, and the machine is surface rusted all over with rust holes in the fender pan and running boards. This one was probably the cat's meow when new but its just rough now. I'm sure with some time and effort it could be brought back but he wanted $400 for it. To me it just needed too much work. The part that bothered me most was the rust, and the fact that many of the lift levers and mechanical linkage were frozen from sitting. Plus the cost of a new set of tires. It did have four wheel weights, a three point hitch and a huge deck. 

If I thought the Bolens would be nothing more than a carb clean, points and condenser and some fresh fuel, I'd probably go that way, but I'm concerned about the transaxle, hydraulic lift, etc. 

The Simplicity is my next favorite, either one would work. The 7117 has the advantage of having four new tires, and a newer motor. I'd just have to figure out the shut down wiring, even if I just add a ground out switch between the coil and ground. (I looked for the ground wire coming from the coil but its not there, so the motor looks like it has to come out to get in there, but that don't look too bad.


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## jhngardner367

I would stay away from the Jacobsen! Parts are extremely hard to find for them and the Jacobsen-built Fords. I'm in the process of restoring a Jacobsen LGTH195 Heavy garden tractor,and when I can find the part,they AREN'T cheap !
Question : Are the Simplicitys hydro drive or gear ?
Also,the engine: Is it the cast-iron block,or newer aluminum one ?


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## packrat

The Jacobsen is too rough anyway, but I didn't figure there would be much in the line of 'Jacobsen only' type parts needed. Most of what that thing needs is a week's worth of body work and a lot of wiring, plus tires. The motor is a Kohler 16hp, so the parts there won't be bad at all. 

Both of the Simplicity machines I looked at were hydrostatic drive, the motor turns a shaft that goes to a transmission or gear box in the middle, then a belt drives the hydrostatic trans on the right, and a clutch off the left side of the same gear box drives the deck. There's also a PTO off the front of the motor, off the crank PTO.

The motors in both were 16hp cast iron Briggs Stratton. The motor in the 7117 looked brand new, lots of fresh labels, shiny paint, no smoke, shiny clean modern type muffler, etc. Too perfect looking to be someone's rattle can repaint. 

The 7117 was the only one that was really in running shape, other than having to pull the plug wire to shut it off, its useable as it sits. Its even got a plow and chains. 

The machine my buddy had also used a belt off the right side but I don't think his was hydrostatic, it had a huge double pulley and double belt on the side of the trans. He hated it, he said it was trouble ever since it was new. The motor however was bullet proof. He's still got it, its sitting out behind his garage under a tarp. He gave up on it and bought a new Diesel Kubota a number of years ago. 
(If I knew I could fix the slipping belts on his, he'd probably trade me for a case of beer. He had replaced all sorts of parts on it including belts and linkage and had it to several dealers but they couldn't figure out why it would slip the belts before spinning a wheel).


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## jhngardner367

I think the 7117 would be a good buy,then. they are a good,heavy duty unit.
As for the slipping belts on your buddy's, they had a factory advisory on it,but I don't recall what it was,exactly. It may have been updated belt/pulley sizes. 
A Simplicity dealer could probably look it up,for you. Either way it would be good to get !


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## packrat

So far it looks like the 7117 is the best I've seen so far around here, especially with winter coming. All I'd need to do is add a kill switch for now. 

The Bolens is neat looking with the loader and all but its also too big to fit in the shed here too, it would have to live outside under a tarp. One thing that I really don't care for about the Bolens is the starter/generator set up, I had an old Sears that had that set up and it never worked quite right no matter what. 
At least the Simplicity has a gear type starter.

As far as dealers, there's nothing around here other than JD and Cub Cadet, all others have gone away over the years. The nearest is more than an hour away.
I've got no idea who sold Bolens here, their not that common and never really were.
After Cub and JD, the next most common brand years ago was Wheel Horse, but even that place is gone. When the big box stores started selling tractors, the dealers dropped like flies around here. 

The most common older used tractor is Sears, after than Cub or JD, with the occasional old Ford, the others are few and far between.


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## chkntrktr

packrat said:


> The most common older used tractor is Sears, after than Cub or JD, with the occasional old Ford, the others are few and far between.


The Sears are tough machines and would do what you need to. My 93 Craftsman has been nothing but good.


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## jhngardner367

You can get Simplicity parts on-line at ; www.partstree.com . My brother has 4 Simplicitys of different models,and he even gets parts on ebay !
I do the same with my 3414v,which is the same drive as the 3410v. I replaced the belt(the wide one),and it will till/plow/pull better than the JD 317 ! the parts are less expensive,too !


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## packrat

I looked at another Simplicity today, another 7117H, this one looks older but its got a newer Kohler Magnum 18hp in it, the guy has all the receipts for a motor swap back in 2008. It comes with a rear hitch, hydraulic lift, a plow, decent but not new tires, and a brand new seat. Its out on the highway for sale not far from here with a $1250 or best offer sign. The motor runs fine, it starts and stops just fine, the rear hitch and lift is all there and working, plus he's got a tiller that goes with it, but he says he's missing the assembly that fits on the machine to run the tiller. There's no pulleys on the tractor at all to guide the belt. He said he bought the tiller some time ago and never got around to finding all the parts. I called an online dealer and I'm not sure its worth trying to piece all that together with new parts, its just too much money to put into something that will only get used once a year. 
This machine is more usable the way it is, the only fault I could find is that the lift lever has a lot of play in it and there's some slop in the steering collum. The steering collum will move fore and aft as if it had tilt wheel. It steers fine, the column is just missing either a bushing or something. The hydraulic lift lever moves about 3" before anything happens, as if something is stripped or worn. Once it 'catches' it works fine. As if the handle was loose on the shaft or something? 

As far as finding attachments, I keep finding three point attachments, not sleeve hitch style here. I've found a half dozen for machines like the Bolens but none for the Simplicity models.


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## jhngardner367

It sounds like a decent unit. Most of the things you've mentioned are pretty minor. As far as a sleeve hitch goes,they aren't hard to make,if it comes down to it.
The tiller parts may be found on ebay,or craigslist,at a later date.
The tiller, alone, sells for nearly $500 ,here !
You could offer $1000,and see what he says,but even at $1250,with those attachments,it's a good price!


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## packrat

The tiller would be nice but I'm not sure I need it. 
Would I really notice the difference between a 16hp single cylinder Briggs engine and the twin cylinder Kohler Magnum 18?

I guess I could always sell the tiller too to cover some of the cost of the tractor?


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## jhngardner367

Do you do any gardening,or do others you know?
That tiller could earn you $$ ,doing gardens/plots for friends !


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## packrat

I plant almost an acre every spring, but I plow and disc the field, I had a buddy rototill it once but it didn't make much difference so I never bothered again. 

The tiller won't be any good to me unless I find the rest of the set up for the tractor. 
From looking at others online it appears this one is missing some pulleys and a bracket that mount on the back of the tractor. He's only got the tiller. 

I'll most likely pick up the 7117H with the Magnum motor this weekend, I figured I'd take my time and see if I can get it a bit cheaper. None of these machines seem to be selling super fast and there's plenty of them for sale now. The guy that has the Bolens even called to see if I was interested saying he'd deliver it if needed.
I just don't think the Bolens is the way to go, if it were running and I knew everything was perfect, maybe, but parts just aren't that common around here. 
At least there seems to be a few Simplicity machines floating around, even though there's no dealer here anymore. (There was at one time I guess). 
Right now there's only a JD and Cub dealer in the area, and only JD stocks any parts.

Most of the Simplicity looks pretty generic, I don't see many brand specific parts so for the most part it should be pretty affordable to keep.


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## packrat

I figured I'd add an update here. 

I had been calling and trying to get in touch with the seller of the Simplicity 7116, and the 7117 machines with no luck. Today I took the drive up that way and found out why. 
The hurricane flooded most of his property, the building that the two tractors are in has nearly 2 foot of water standing in it 6 days after the storm. He still wants to sell them but I'm not too sure I want to deal with either one after its possibly been under water in saltwater. He swears that the water never got over the carburetor, but it was still too deep for hip waders so I pretty much decided to pass. 
I'm sure the attachements can survive but I don't care to deal with a saltwater flooded transaxle or motor. He offered to change all the fluids, but that won't be for a while since he's dealing with a flooded house as well. 

I in my travels however I did come across another machine, which may or may not be of use to me, but the price was right. Its a Simplicity YT180H, missing its motor but with three brand new tires. The guy said it had a brand new motor in it which he used in something else. I got the tractor for $25, figuring that the two new 23x10.50/12 Titan tires have to be worth that much. He said it was in running shape and he was able to cut his lawn a few times with it before removing the motor. 

Now the big question, what can power this with? 
It had a Kohler 18hp opposed twin cylinder motor, but can I retro fit something else? 
The driveshaft is still there, he simply unplugged the motor and bolted it into something else. Its a pretty decent looking machine, however not as heavy as the Simplicity I was going to buy. An online search says its got an Eaton 751 transaxle, which seems to have a pretty good reputation, and the steering and other moving parts aren't worn out. The deck has a few cracks here and there but nothing I can't patch up. The big deal is that the original motor used an electric clutch on the front of the motor to drive the deck belt, matching that may be a problem? 
I've got an old 15hp Kawasaki generator that don't charge anymore, maybe I can use that motor and forget about the deck and just use it as a yard tug? I suppose I could also rig a snow plow to it. It has no sign of a rear hitch or rear lift, so plowing or any heavy garden work is probably beyond what its built for.


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## jhngardner367

The 15 hp Kaw engine would power it ok,if you match up the driveshaft,etc.
as for the others,I would offer $500,due to the water,and drain/refill the fluids. Wash the tractor with water and baking soda mix ,and it should neutralize the salt's effects.


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## Argee

I have never heard of a Simplicity "Y180H"....what year was this manufactured? The 7116 and 7117 that you describe come from a different era. Here is a paragraph from Simpletractors.com that describes the Simplicity Mfg tractors that I thought were being discussed. These were manufactured by Allis Chalmers after they acquired Simplicity Manufacturing in the mid 60's. Here is a little Simplicity history.

*"The first product of the newly formed company was a cylinder-boring machine for rebuilding automobile engines. By 1936, cheap, factory rebuilt engines became available and Simplicity no longer had a viable product to sell. So once again, the giant auto industry nearly spelled doom for Simplicity. In 1937 the firm entered the Garden Tractor market with a two-wheel "walker" tractor sold by Montgomery Ward and Company. This initial product offering was an outstanding success and the firm has continued to specialize in high quality lawn and garden equipment up to the present day.

Simplicity walker tractors came with a very wide range of attachments including cultivator, plow, front blade, and sickle bar mower. Eventually snow blowers, disc harrows, tillers, rotary and reel mowers, and even a buzz saw were added. One of the great strengths of the Simplicity product line over the years has been the large number of attachments available. Simplicity walker tractors used Briggs engines and power ranged from 1.5 horsepower. However during the mid and late 1950’s, the “FC” was produced using a Kohler engine. By 1960, Simplicity reverted back to Briggs engines exclusively. The last of the true walker tractors was the 8 hp model “W” built into the 1970’s. Simplicity also builds walk behind tillers, but a “true” walker tractor differs as it has a transmission to power the wheels. Some even had multiple speeds and a reverse gear.

In 1939, the first riding tractor appeared, which was a walker with a sulky attachment. In the mid-1950’s the first riding lawn mowers appeared. The "Wonderboy" rear engine models stayed in the line up through the 1970’s, eventually becoming the Coronet, which is still made. The first 4 wheel garden tractor was the 7 horsepower Wonderboy 700, introduced in 1959. In order to avoid confusion with the rear engine models, this tractor became simply the 700 for 1960. In 1961 a slightly more powerful engine was installed and it became the 7.25 horsepower 725. The 725, with yellow paint and minor sheet metal changes, became the Allis-Chalmers B-1. During the rest of the 1960’s the tractor line was greatly expanded. The 725 evolved into the 9 horsepower Landlord in 1963 and the 10 horsepower Landlord 101 in 1965. The 12 horsepower Sovereign was introduced in 1966. New squared off hoods appeared in 1967. The hoods became rounded with the 3300 series of 1970 and 3400 series of 1972. In 1974 the 7000 series was introduced, being superseded by the 7100 series in 1979. The 7100 series evolved into the Sovereign, which sadly, was discontinued in June of 2000, thus ending over 40 years production of the same basic design.

A smaller "lawn" type tractor, the 6 horsepower Broadmoor, was first made in 1964. This kind of tractor was referred to as a “lawn” tractor because it was designed for above ground work, like mowing, as opposed to the more difficult below ground work of tilling and plowing. However Simplicity did make tillers available for many of these models, so there is no clear-cut difference between a lawn tractor and a garden tractor. In 1968, the Serf and Yeoman were brought into the line. These tractor lines evolved into the 4200, 5200 and 6200 series. Almost all of these tractors had Allis-Chalmers equivalents. 

In 1972 Simplicity designed and built a large garden tractor, the PowrMax, which helped define the term "compact" tractor. Larger than a garden tractor, but smaller than a farm tractor, the PowrMax used a twin cylinder, 16 horsepower Onan engine. In 1973, Simplicity began installing a 20 horsepower version of the same engine. The PowrMax series was built until 1979. The next big Simplicity was the Sunstar, introduced in late 1986, which was also sold in Deutz-Allis, Agco-Allis(1918 & 1920H) and Massey-Ferguson (2918H & 2920H) editions. The Sunstar was replaced by the Legacy in late 1997. 

In 1978, Simplicity began selling two models of compact diesel tractors. The Simplicity 9523 was identical to the Allis-Chalmers 5020. The 9528 was the same as the AC 5030. The Hinomoto Company of Japan built these tractors, using Toyosha engines. Hinomoto also made tractors for Massey-Ferguson. In 1981, the model 9518 was introduced, which was the same as the AC 5015. After 1983, the Simplicity compact diesels were discontinued, although Allis and then Deutz-Allis continued to sell their versions.

From 1965 to 1983, the Allis-Chalmers Corporation owned Simplicity Manufacturing."*


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## jhngardner367

I think he might be talking about the Sunstar 18, Argee. The description fits,somewhat.


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## Argee

jhngardner367 said:


> I think he might be talking about the Sunstar 18, Argee. The description fits,somewhat.


Yes...that's probably what it is. Kind of excited to see some pics of it.


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## jhngardner367

I saw one for sale,a few months ago,on CL,that looked real nice,but no spark. The guy finally sold it for $400 !
I really like the older Simplicity tractors,as does my brother. I have 1,a 3314v...HE has 3 !


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## Argee

jhngardner367 said:


> I saw one for sale,a few months ago,on CL,that looked real nice,but no spark. The guy finally sold it for $400 !
> I really like the older Simplicity tractors,as does my brother. I have 1,a 3314v...HE has 3 !


They're built like tanks. My 7112 is tough. I also own a 7018 with a hydro that I'm probably going to part out.


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## packrat

Sorry, I meant to type Snapper YT18H, I had posted late at night and didn't proof read what I typed.

I was up that way last night, I stopped and gave another look at the 7116 and 7117, but both engines are locked up now, the batteries are dead, and there's surface rust already starting on any exposed steel. The water line in that building is over 5' off the ground, there's debri which floated in from the nearby creek or marsh. Lots of reeds and grass all over the building. 
I think if he had gotten to them right away, then maybe the engines had a chance but they've now sat for over a week with saltwater in and on them. 

The Snapper YT18H is a lighter machine, but I basically got it for nothing. 
The Kawasaki motor is marked Kawasaki Industrial Power, KF150. 15PS on the side. 
Its got 'door' on the flywheel side and only a huge flywheel nut on that side. The opposite side has a 30mm output shaft about 4" long with a slight taper at the very end. The last 1/2" or so is tapered off sharply.

If I can find a way to mate this to the Snapper's driveshaft, I think its only going to be a matter of maybe drilling a few holes in the engine mount plate and figuring out the wiring so it'll charge the battery. The Kawasaki has 7 wires coming out from under the shroud. Its coil is external, so I take its got a 12V ignition like on a car. The coil has a module attached like on some older Japanese cars. The starter hook up is simple, its a basic 12V battery feed and ground with a solenoid which needs a crank signal from the ignition switch. 
Since the ignition on this provides a ground to the original motor in the off position, I won't be able to use that for this motor. Either a separate on/off switch or another key switch will be in order.


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## jhngardner367

From the sound of the crankshaft description,it may have been a generator engine.


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## packrat

The Kawasaki could be from a generator or pump, but there's enough straight crankshaft there to use it for anything, it may even be too long. If I were to cut off the tapered area it would still be a bit over 3.5" long. 
The only if is would be if I could power a deck off that end, the orignal motor had a 1" bore electric clutch, this thing has a 30mm shaft. Even if they make such a clutch, it likely worth more than I'm willing to spend for it. Those I've seen online are all over $300. Unless I found one for a few bucks this thing is destined to be nothing more than yard tug. In reality, I'm debating whether or not its even worth rigging up at all, the motor alone may be worth more for another project with more uses than just to end up with a tractor that can do nothing more than tow a trailer around. 

The back end of this thing is just heavy sheet metal, The transaxle however looks decent, far heavier looking than anything sold today, but not near as heavy duty as something older, such as the older Simplicity or Bolens machines.

Maybe the right answer is to pull the transaxle, save the major parts and scrap the sheetmetal tractor? Its probably three times better built than a modern Sears tractor or MTD, but its only a fraction the machine that nearly any pre-1980 name brand machine is. Even the lowest end model older Simplicity machines look to be better made. 
One big drawback is the oddball, long skinny battery that the Snapper uses, and they want $80 for one locally. So right away this thing is in for a bolt on batter box anywhere I can fit it. The battery fits next to the driveshaft in the middle under a screwed in place panel between your legs. More a motorcycle battery than a tractor battery. 
When I found that the front wheels were just bushing on spindle type, I started to loose interest. 
Although one of my reasons to find a decent machine is to be able to park both my boat and camper behind the house for storage, I'd still like it to be a bit more capable. I don't see this thing holding up for long if I were use it to plow snow or do any serious garden work. It just don't have the frame structure to attach a hitch too. The cost of having an adapter made to mate the engine to the driveshaft will also be an issue, from what I can see I'd need an adapter similiar to the original Kohler adapter but it needs to be a bit longer and the bolt spacing is different. 

I'd be more inclined to proceed if the motor was more of a direct fit, or if the end result would be a more capable machine. 

Now that I have the motor, I'm certainly not against finding a machine that it would work well on, but that would basically limit it to being a belt driven set up to avoid the cost of making a driveshaft adapter for the other end. 
The tapered shaft isn't much of an issue, I can buy various 30mm ID pulleys to fit the crank. Tractor Supply here even stocks a few in the 2" to 4" range. 

Does anyone have any clue why so many machines or transaxles to be more specific drive off the flywheel side? It would make more sense to me to use the stronger end of the crank? Its as if engine makers and trans makers aren't on the same page?
The only machines that drive off the crank end that I've seen so far are either Bolens, or various belt driven machines like Wheel Horse and older John Deere.

Does anyone know of any machines that this Kawasaki would be well suited too?


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## jhngardner367

Most of the older Simplicitys drive off the flywheel side and use the Pto for attachments . The 3310/3312/3314 series all do.


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## packrat

Thats pretty much what I'm finding with nearly all these machines. 
So far that Bolens 1250 was the only one that drove the trans off the PTO end of the crank.

I had a guy offer me a trade today, he's got an early New Holland S-8 that's complete, but not running in trade for the Snapper with no motor. 
The S-8 needs four tires, I have two front tires that will fit here, and it doesn't always start. It seems it runs when it feels like it. The motor however is vertical shaft, belt drive to a hydro transaxle. However, even being belt drive, it looks a lot beefier than the Snapper Yt18H. 
It ran when I was there looking at it, but wouldn't restart after it was shut down. The trans works, as does the deck and I was able to drive it around a bit before the cracked rear tires lost air.
The front tires hold air but are completely bald, but the one tie rod is obviously bent which would account for the extreme wear. 
Its not what I was originally after but its complete, and as a trade, its a no money invested type of deal. Most likely the motor has an ignition or carb issue, if not, I've got a junk Yardman out back with a blown trans with a good 12hp Briggs that I could transplant. 
I think no matter what its a step up, plus I'd still have the Kawasaki 15hp to use elsewhere. 
I'd also consider trading the Kawasaki engine for one that would more easily adapt to a flywheel drive style tractor.

Since the weather was sloppy today, I got home early and got the chance to also go look at an older Cub Cadet, a model 108. Its in running shape, comes with a snow plow, two decks, and a snow blower, along with several spare back wheels.
Its rough looking but seems complete and runs well. Someone painted the hood with green/gray colored house paint, and there's a cutout on the frame on the left side for some reason. It looks like someone took a 3x4" chunk out of the left frame right next to the fan shroud. 
The only thing I thought felt off is that the clutch pedal felt pretty weak, not much resistance, but I couldn't make the clutch slip. 
He also wants to make a trade, but he's after an outboard motor I have.
Which I figure is worth around $500 or so, although I paid far less for it when I bought it. The notch in the frame is my biggest concern. The worst part is that I can seen no good reason why they cut the piece out of the frame like that. It don't give access to anything that I can see.


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## jhngardner367

They might have had a different engine in it,or tried to put some adapted implement on it. It might be a good project tractor !


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## packrat

The only problem with the Cub Cadet is that I'm not sure I want to let the outboard he wants for it go.
I suppose the frame cut won't hurt much, its obviously survived that way for a long time. The motor in it appears original, or if it was replaced, it came from another CC. 
I was thinking that maybe someone had a twin cylinder engine on it but I think they would have cut both sides, and a lot deeper. 
I'm also sure I could cut and fit a new piece of metal in that spot and weld it in place. The repair would be invisible when I was done. 
I also forgot to mention that the grill is also cut around the left headlight, for some reason they ground into the left headlight frame, it looks like someone pulled it up to a bench grinder and cut a 3/4" groove in the aluminum that surrounds the headlight.

I tried getting a cash price from him but he wants the outboard or no deal. I have to really think about that one. 

I still think I like the Simplicity machines best overall, its too bad the two I looked at got flooded.
Any opinions on Cub Cadet vs. Simplicity?


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## jhngardner367

I prefer the Simplicity,just because the parts are so readily available,and they're built like tanks !
I know the older cubs are rugged(the full-frame models,not the newer stamped-frame ones),but I don't know how easy it is to get parts.
Most of these tractors were just that..TRACTORS . They weren't just rider lawn-mowers,like the ones today. They were built to do WORK,like tilling plowing soil,pushing snow,or dirt,and hauling .
Today's "tractors",are light-duty,lawn mowers,that occasionally have a snowblade/snowthrower,or a leaf vac.People don't do as much gardening/outdoor work as they used to,and will hire it done.
Most models wouldn't stand up to that,except for the "professional",or "grounds-keeper" models...which are very expensive.


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## jhngardner367

If I had the resources to get there,I would JUMP at the chance to get one of the Simplicity tractors..especially if it had attachments with it !
The soaking in sea water doesn't bother me ,in the least, since all the fluids would be changed,and the outside surfaces,neutralized,and painted, for the tractor and attachments.
That's part of the restoration/clean up process,anyway.
The best advice I can give you.is this : Figure out just what you want the tractor to do/how much you like working on them/parts availability/and,most of all.....are you passionate enough to be willing to restore it?
Restoring an old unit,and seeing how well they perform...well,there's no feeling like it ! It shows you how much PRIDE they had in their products,then,and how much they expected of their units! I think,if you restored one of these old units,as I have,you'd never want a new one,again ! That Bolens,in my avitar,isn't finished,yet.Come spring,it will be worked on more....but, for now, it has WORK to do !


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## Argee

jhngardner367 I agree with your assessment of the Simplicity tractors being built for hard work. If you decide that you want another project tractor I'll make you a good deal on my 7018.


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## packrat

I guess the first thing I need here is a machine that can move my boat and camper from the driveway to the back yard, the boat is about 2,100 lbs on a trailer, and the camper about 3,200lbs. The back yard is about 4' lower than the front yard and driveway. I used an old MTD with a 12hp for a while but its a constant headache both with traction and with the carb filling up with water in the rain. I had the same issue with the Sears that I had before. They weren't protected from the weather very well. 
Since the tank fill was on top of the hood, and neither hood opened, its nearly impossible to keep the water out. I don't have a garage, and the shed isnt' big enough to store both my mower and a tractor. 
My second purpose is that I have roughly a 100x150' lot next door that I can plant on, I've always planting a small corner of it, a few tomato plants, some squash etc. but I'd like to do more. I have a 5hp roto tiller that I use right now but figured if I find a tractor that can plow and disc the soil there I could do a much larger garden. 
I have a Brinly plow set up for a sleeve hitch, and a single row disc that I believe is home made. I bought both items at a yard sale a few months ago for $35. 
The MTD won't budge the 5' disc, it just slips the belt or spins its 20" back wheels. 
The lot, like my yard isn't perfectly level, it drops off to the rear about 6 ft. total from the road to the rear property border. Basically what has happened is that the owner of the lot there is out of state and has been paying someone to cut and maintain it, four others and myself have gotten written permission to use the land in exchange for its upkeep, (Keep the grass down and keep it presentable). The owner lives 2500 miles away. 
We will each plant about an equal area of this lot, one other neighbor and myself are going to split the cost of a tractor, the others intend to hire someone to rototill it for $400 per 1/4 acre. The way I see it, if I had to pay $400 to get it tilled and ready to plant, plus buy all my plants, I might as well just save the effort and buy the food in the end. I intend to do this to save some money. I plant my own seeds and intend to work the ground myself. Its just too much to do by hand, but not enough to justify a bigger tractor. 

I did speak to the owner of those two Simplicity machines, but he's not willing to go below $500 for each tractor with its own attachements. The way I see it, the decks are of no use to me, nor are the snow blowers, not that I don't want the decks, I just don't see any reason to pay extra for them, the snow plows are ok, but again, I don't have that much area to clear when it snows, my walk behind 2 stage snow blower always did just fine. It takes me less than an hour to clear my entire drive of up to 20" of snow with an 8hp blower.

Both motors on those Simplicity machines now have been sitting for over a week full of saltwater. That can't be good. I once trash picked a lawn mower from down that way that got flooded thinking it can't be that bad, but it was not salvageable. The rings are cast iron, the crank is cast iron, and every piece of hardware is steel. These Simplicity machines have iron blocks as well. That rings in the mower I tore apart were rusted, pitted, and stuck after only a day in the saltwater. These have been a week. The oil in the one tractor, the 7117H, had floated out of the engine, that engine has a plastic dipstick up near the head, which just pops in place. The oil which was fresh and full when I first saw it was empty and now full of water. Neither engine would turn even the least bit. Saltwater works fast, if they were submerged and still underwater they would have faired better than now having had time to corrode after being exposed to oxygen along with the salt. 
No doubt the snow plows will be fine, and maybe even the snow blower if you change the gear box lube, but the motors and transaxles will require complete overhauls. I just don't care to get into all that for what I need. My goal is more or less to find something that's closer to being ready to use with out having to spend big money on it. If I gave $500 for a salted tractor, I'd have to spend double that getting it running again, plus any other repairs it may need, and I'd still have to deal with other rust issues. No doubt the batteries are both gone, saltwater kills lead acid batteries, the dash and gauges are shot, the ignition switch is shot, the bevel gear box should be ok with an oil change, it depends on how much water got it through its vent hole, the hydro transmissions on both are full of water, there's oil all over the place where it floated out, it even left oil on the hood and seat where it settled as the water level receeded. 

If I end up finding a Simplicity in the end, I may go back and try to by the plows but right now he won't separate any of it. He did say he'd let both tractors and all the attachements go for $900 cash as a package deal.

I was going to swap the motorless Snapper for the New Holland figuring a complete tractor is better than one that's half stripped, and in the end it would be more sellable or tradeable towards the goal of finding something better. 
The guy came by today and I happened to ask him how much he thought his New Holland was worth, no trade involved, and he says $20-$25. He had the New Holland on his trailer. I told him I was thinking of keeping the Snapper, how about $20 bucks for the New Holland, and went for it. So now I own a Snapper with no motor in it, a 15hp Kawasaki motor, and a New Holland S-8 that runs when it feels like it. 
The New Holland don't seem to have much compression, the motor all but spins freely when spun by hand, yet at times it'll start up and run fine. When it don't start, it still has spark but the spark is weak and I can smell gas as it cranks. 
When it runs its fine, it cuts grass, climbs hills, no problem. It even has a home made rear hitch with a tow ball. 
It does need tires, I have two front tires, their the same as my old Sears, which I stripped out, and the two back tires are 20" OD, so my thought is to replace the two keyed type rear rims with 5 bolt hubs and to use the rear tires off my old Sears. 
I'll be gaining about 3/8" of height in the rear. I may or may not leave the deck on, it does cut grass just fine, I actually chopped up all my leaves with it since the deck had a mulching plate on it. 
I ran it for two hours after work with no issues, yet an hour later after shutting it down, it wouldn't start. Ten minutes ago it started right up but stalled and refused to fire back up. So far I've done nothing to it. 
Its too small for the garden but I'm betting it'll move the boat and camper with no problem, belt drive or not. Its double the weight of my old MTD or Sears tractors.

However its still not a garden machine, but for $20, I couldn't not buy it. 

I attached a pic of the New Holland.
Its ugly but the price was right and it runs (sometimes).


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## packrat

I guess I was just meant to buy a Simplicity after all, I was making the rounds yardsale to yardsale this morning and found a pair of Simplicity 3410 tractors for sale. 
The deal was take both or none, $100. 
The one is a Simplicity 3 speed, (the one in the background), and the better of the two is a 3410S with the shuttle drive). The 3410S has a roto tiller on the back.

The owner had the head off the 3410S, he said it blew the headgasket about a year ago and he never got around to hunting down a headgasket, the other machine is robbed of its carburetor. He said he took that one to a local shop for fix the carb but they told him it was beyond repair and needed a $400 carburetor, so he bought a new tractor. When I found these I was out riding my bike since the weather today was nearly 70 degrees here. Not wanting to leave them behind I tried calling any one of several friends with trailers but couldn't reach anyone. 
Then I got an idea! I pulled the head and gasket off the parts machine using the bicycle wrench set I carry when I ride, swapped that head and gasket to the 3410S, and got it running right in the guys driveway. I then took the tire chains that came with the 3410S and used them to hook the front end of the 3410 to the back of the rototiller on the back of the 3410S, layed the bike across the parts tractor, and proceeded to drive them both home just under 3 miles. I got some odd looks but it worked. There just was no way I was leaving them there.

The best part is that I got a good look at the cylinders on both machines, and neigther shows any wear, both still show their original hone marks in the cylinder walls. I think the seller was a bit surprised to hear it fire up, he thought I was waiting for a trailer to show up. The whole head swap took only 15 minutes, all I did was remove the bolts, slide the head out from under the tin, then pulled the top tin. 
Its got a new battery, new blades, decent tires, and it came with a set of chains with V bar links. To hook up the second tractor, I took one set of chains, and pulled the now running machine back against the curb, and the parts machine up on the curb, when I pulled off the curb, the second machine was hanging, now supported by the tiller and rear hitch. (I didn't want to go through hooking it up and finding out I couldn't lift the front of the parts machine with the deckleve, nor did I want to try. 
It worked surprisingly well. 

Anyhow, their both here now, I actually used the 3410S to give the lawn one last cut, and to chop up some fallen leaves that the hurricane didn't blow away. 
The tiller turns fine, feels smooth and all but the manual, which came with these, says there's another set of pulley's that mount to the side of the hitch which I don't have. The seller said he looked for years and could never find a set. He said he bought the 3410S new in 1974, but he bought the tiller used along with the parts machine, which I take it only donated its carburetor. I have the old carb, the upper part of the carb is eaten away where the main jet goes in, the jet will never seat properly. I suppose with another carb I could get the other machine running. 

I did retorgue the head on the good machine, even though its got a used gasket. Its not leaking so I'm leaving it alone for now. Now I need to make or find a plow. 
I have the pics in the owner's manual and brochures to copy one if I need too.

An hour after it got dark my buddy called me and said he could be right over with the trailer. When I told him what I did he didn't believe me. 
I got the idea of how to tow the second one home from an old timer I used to work for as a kid, he had a junk 3/4 ton pickup he used for towing cars to the junkyard, he had an old hitch coupler on which he welded a 4' tall riser, with a cross bar at the top with two chain hooks welded on it. He used to jack up the car to be towed, run a chain through one hook, around the frame or axle of the towed car, and up to the other hook, when he let the car down, it was hanging on the homemade hitch.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Nicely done!


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## Argee

What a great find!


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## jhngardner367

*Simplicitys*

Excellent !! The "s" is a good tractor ,as it has the shuttle shift,which comes it REAL handy ,when using the blade,or a snowthrower.
If those arte the cast-iron Briggs engines, it actually isn't that hard to find a carb.
Those machines,here in Michigan ,running or not would bring around $500,so you just got one helluva deal !
I guess it proves the old saying " Good things come to those who wait ! "


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## packrat

The best part is that since I've got so little in them I've got a grand or so left to deal with the issues or get the second machine going. I sort of prefer the idea of the geared trans, but the shuttle seems to work ok, but the planetarys are noisy in reverse, but I've heard that on others before. It somehow locks up the forward drive and forces power to go through a set of planetary gears in reverse. I'm not sure which is stronger, the shuttle trans or the straight three speed? 
The three speed sure is simpler. If I can find a carb, a new set of points, and a new head gasket, I'm sure that one will run too. 
The clutch on the three speed is nothing more than a belt tensioner though. Still not a direct drive. 
I got to talking to a guy the other day who has a bunch of old Bolens 'tube' frame tractors. From talking to him it sounds like the belt tensioner is probably the better set up considering the cost of clutch parts for those models using a plate clutch.
He was putting a complete new clutch in an older Cub Cadet and the invoice for just the parts he bought was over $300. A belt is only $12 or so. 

It also looks like the rear end of the Simplicity is better thought out than many others, they obviously built these with the intention of using rear attachments.
I'm not real fond of the belt set up for that tiller though, but unless I find the missing pieces its not of much use to me. 

Here's a few pics of the tiller and the old head gasket. I checked the original head and its perfectly flat, so chances are the bolts were either loose or it got hot, but the fins look nice and clean from what I can see, and the motor is bone dry, no signs of any leaks. I did give it a good blast with some compressed air just in case. If the headgasket bolts were as loose as they were on the parts machine, I can see why it blew out. I did retorque the headgasket once I got home, giving it a pound or two extra since its a used gasket. If it don't last, its not a big deal to fix either way.

If I get the other machine running, I'll move the rear hitch over to the 3 speed 3410, and use that one for the garden, and leave the 3410S as a mower only.


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## jhngardner367

You can find those pulley set ups. My brother's has the same one,and he found it on ebay,and it was reasonably priced. 
He likes the shuttle shift for pushing blowing snow, but uses the geared one for tilling.


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## packrat

I'm pretty much thinking the same way, I just need to find that pulley set up. I did a quick internet search and didn't find any, hopefully one pops up before spring I guess.
The tiller actually shows no wear on the tines, just rust from sitting. He had the tractors in a falling down old garage but he said the put the tiller outside after he gave up searching for the pulley set up years ago. There are no local dealers, so even new isn't an option here unless I go mail order. 
I guess parts wise, its mail order for anything by JD and Cub Cadet here these days, all other dealers are gone.

With the days being shorter now, the first order of business may be some sort of headlights. Apparently the one came with lights, he gave me a double headlight set up in a box but there's only 3 bulbs and they don't look like they'd give off much light.
I'm more thinking of a pair of work lights like on the forklifts at work.

What is the proper battery for one of these? The 3410S has a #51 car battery in it, the other machine has a group 22LT battery in it. Both fit, but the 22 has a bit more room around it. 

Maybe I'll put a post in the Simplicity section here, maybe someone has a pulley set up for sale?


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## packrat

Well, when it rains, it pours. I was driving home today and spotted two old Simplicity machines behind a shed. I had taken a different route than usually due to some road work. Figuring if I killed some time I wouldn't have to go completely out of my way I stopped and inquired about the two machines. 
While I was hoping for a couple of freebies, they were both cheap. 
I wasn't really planning on two more tractors in the yard but the old lady kept on about two more pieces of junk, so I took her home and went right back and got them with the neighbors trailer. 
So in addition to my 3410S and 3410 Parts tractor, I now have another 3410 S or H?
and a 7016 that runs but has a bent front axle. The 3410S, so its marked has a three speed shift pattern on the frame, yet its got a hydrostatic trans. It runs but leaks gas all over. Along with the two machines I got a spare hydrostatic transaxle, two front axles, and remnants of a 3415H in a basket. $85 spent in all for this load. The way I see it, I'm probably in them for less than scrap weight. After an hour of screaming and carrying on, its quieted down a bit here. Right now I've got four and a half Simplicity machines, one Snapper YT18H with no motor, and a New Holland S8 painted JD green in the yard. Plus a well used older MTD that I've given up on behind the shed. 
A little more complaining around here and I may just buy a few more. 
It is getting chilly out, maybe I should bring them inside for the winter to work on. There's plenty of room on the porch or in the kitchen.

Anyhow, the 7016 is a different style machine, but at least its got headlights, and more power. But I have to deal with the bent front axle. It looks like it was dropped, the one spindle is folded up and the axle is twisted slightly. The engine runs but needs a throttle cable, two front tires, and a battery. The 3410 with hydrostat, 3410S on the hood, runs but the carb and fuel hose are leaking gas, I'll have to get a carb kit and some new hose and go from there. Otherwise it runs good. It took me a while to figure out how to get it in neutral so I could push it on the trailer. The lever on the back was covered with a ton of grass and mud. 
It looks like a mix of various machines, the hood from a 3410S, the frame from a 3 speed 3410, and the trans from a 3410H?
I'm going tomorrow to look at a snow plow for a Simplicity, which is one of the main accessories I need right away. I'd also like to find a sleeve hitch, dirt plow, and a disc harrow for the garden. None of these had the rear pulleys I need for the other 3410S with the tiller either.


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## Argee

Wow...sounds like quite a find. You are becoming true to your name...ha ha ha. I'm happy and a little jealous of your good fortune. Your wife will come around...especially if you fix one up for her to putt around on. I don't know what you know or don't know about Simplicity machines.. But here's a good place to start. www.simpletractors.com/


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## jhngardner367

Packrat , I just use the square halogen lights(55w),from Harbor Freight. They don't take much juice,and they really throw the light. My brother and I both use car batteries,in ours,due to the starter/generator drawing so much juice, when cranking .
By the way, I plan on taking some pics of his tiller setup,and,some measurements,as well. Worse comes to worse,you could make one of the pulley sets.


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## packrat

I thought about making a pulley set but don't know where to start for the bracket or spacing. I don't suppose pulley size is all the important. The belt I got with it is 59" long, it looks original. 

The woman don't have a choice, I own the place and I make the rules. If I hear enough gruff, I'll bring one inside to work on next time. 
Not married, it make shte open door policy work a bit better.

I found the Simpletractors when someone posted a link to a catalog page. 

I've got my eyes on an Allis Chalmers 416S with a snow plow marked Simplicity, so I assume they interchange just fine, the guy wants $650 for the whole tractor with a parts machine minus its motor. The 416S has a new belt, new tires, and a brand new motor. The only other plow I found was $250 and its well rusted and worn. I figure if I can get the AC 416 for $500 cash, the motor and plow are well worth it, plus the new tires, chains, and other misc parts. Its also got a new battery, so I could either use it as is, or use it to fix up the parts 3410 I have with a 16hp upgrade.

I picked up two 'work' lights at work, the boss said take a pair when I asked where he got them. They're a sealed beam bulb in a molded rubber housing with a heavy steel mount. They hold up on a forklift outdoors for years so they should last a lifetime on a tractor in my care. I suppose the bulbs are the same bulbs most garden tractors use anyhow. 

How well do the HF lights hold up with vibration? 

I powered up the lights on the 7016 last night and they're so yellowed and weathered they barely give off any usable light. If I were to use that machine or even use that hood,(if it fits a 3410?) the lights would have to be upgraded anyhow. 
The lenses look to be plastic.


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## Argee

Be careful on the plow. It's been a while but I recall purchasing a plow for my 7112 from an older Landlord and the mounts were different. They were closer together as I recall. I was able to sell the plow for what I had into it fortunately. It was A lesson learned....measure the mounting areas.


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## packrat

The plow on the 416S says Simplicity right on it, could it still have different mounts?

Although the axle set up is different on the 416, the mounting tabs look the same. 

The seller claims to have taken the plow off a 3410 years ago.


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## jhngardner367

Allis-Chalmers,and Simplicity were once the same company,as far as lawn/garden tractors went,but,in some cases the attachments varied,as Argee stated.
Some had different spacing,and some had different lift/drive systems.
As far as the halogen lights go,mine have been on the tractor for 3 yrs,with no problems. The Bolens,in my avitar,is also using them.
The tiller idle assy can be made ,I just have to get the measurements,and pulley diameter/widths. Then, I'll try to make one,and post the progress for the forum.


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## Argee

On that link I provided I believe there is a chart on what fits what.


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## packrat

Well, add another tractor to the list, I brought the 416S with snow plow home tonight. 
Better yet, I traded an old Sears canoe and a row boat I had for it. Both had been sitting out back for years doing me no good, the seller was looking for just that. 
So the way i see it I got basically got it for about $300 or so, depending what an old 12' Sears row boat and plastic canoe are worth. I trash picked the canoe, the boat was here when I moved here. Better yet, I didn't have to go get it. He delivered it when he came for the boat and canoe.

The plow fits the Simplicity, both the AC and Simplicity have the same mounting tabs. 
The rear tires are filled on the AC, I'm not sure what with but its got tubes. He handed me the chains, and through in a second set of narrower tires he said work better when plowing. The chains fit the spare wheels, which are 23-8.50x12" 
The AC also has a full rear hitch, sleave hitch and all. He said he used it to plow his garden for a bit until buying a newer machine. He had already sold the plow and disc he had. The 416S has what appears to be a brand new cast iron Briggs 16hp in it, but with a starter generator. The starter generator is rigged up, the belt tensioner is attached to the hood supports, but it works. It starts easy and pulls hard. The rear hitch is home made from 3/8" angle iron, its far heavier looking than those I've seen for sale online. 

The 416S has a few issues, the left rear axle tube is wet around where the hub meets the axle tube, maybe just a seal? Its wet but not dripping. 
The hood is trashed, it looks like a tree fell on it or someone beat it up with a sledge hammer, but it came with a pile of spare parts in the form of a 410S minus its motor and most of its electrical parts.

Now I have to decide whether to pull the plow for the 3410S or just keep it on the 416S and swap over the 8.50 wide tires and chains and run it the way it is. 
The 416S feels bigger for what ever reason, it also 'feels' heavier which I'm sure a lot has to do with the loaded rear tires but the seat is nearly 10" higher off the ground than the 3410.


I posted a quick pic of the 416S


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## jhngardner367

Man, I GOTTA agree with Argee....you're livin' up to your name......in a good way! LOL!


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## packrat

I get the feeling there will be more, unless I stumble on a plow and disc by itself, chances are it'll mean buying another tractor or two to get the plow and disc. 
I've been watching a disc on CL, the guy wants $250 for it in rusty but good working shape. No sign of a 10" plow yet. I have an older Brinly but its rough, and it was modified to work with a three point hitch at some point. I'd have to cut it apart and remake the sleeve hitch end to use it. 

I guess the biggest dilemma is what to do with the first two, the Snapper YT18H and the New Holland S8. Its probably worth more in scrap than what either will bring on CL these days, if I'm able to buy pairs of Simplicity machines for $100, a belt drive S8, regardless of how well built it is won't bring a fraction of that. The worst thing about the New Holland is the three cans of JD green someone slobbered all over it. The rest is all basic maintenance items.


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## packrat

I got a call today from the guy with the two flooded tractors, he said the insurance company paid him for them and he'd let them go for scrap if I was interested. Buying those cheap would give me the disc and plow. I figure they weigh around 750 each with the attachments, so that put scrap value around $150 for the pair. figuring on the high side of $.10 per pound right now for light iron. Most aren't paying that much. I'd go to $200 total. My guess is that both engines are done, and maybe both transmissions. They were underwater for more than 24 hours so chances are saltwater got in everything. The attachments should be salvageable though.

In tinkering with the 3410 parts machine I see that the frame along the bottom edge of the dash is pretty rusty, most likely from battery leakage, and the AC 416 is pretty much the same way but on the AC its all the way through the battery pan or shelf which the battery sits on. The frame on the AC isn't touched. I have a spare chassis that I can swap metal from for that one. I'm not sure if the rust is that bad on the 3410, but when I touched that area a huge chunk of scale fell off the side. All of these have rust there but only the 3410 geared trans model is that bad. Maybe a 3400 parts chassis is in order to save one more of these? 

If I buy the two flooded machines, it'll make 8 tractors in all in the yard. 
Its a good thing their small, or I'd run out of room here pretty fast. 

The guy also called about the Cub with the cut frame, he said that too went underwater in the last storm, it still runs by the clutch is frozen and the deck is seized up. He also has two newer John Deere machines he said to just come get. 
So those will make three more total I guess, there's got to be something worth saving off those as well.


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## jhngardner367

I think I'd check those engines,in any case. I used to do salvage dives,in my youth,and I once pulled a vehicle up from the coastal waters,near Florida.
When it was sold(for scrap),the buyer decided to check the engine over. When he pulled the heads...NO RUST,after 2 weeks under water!


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## packrat

Both engines were seized when I was there last week, but I suppose a stuck gear box or trans could do the same. There was zero movement in the driveshaft though. I think if he had gotten to them and at least pumped the water out of the cylinders and shot some oil down the hole they'd have a chance. 
The transmissions may have a better chance but from what I gathered both machines sat under water for almost 24 hours before the water receded.
The first thing I noticed when I was there was that there was oil all over the place, it apparently floated out as the water entered the motors, the entire engine was covered in oil film as is the floor all over the place in there. There were other machines and two trucks in that same building, all got flooded. 
My main goal is to get the attachments, if anything else can be salvaged is yet to be seen. Getting the rust off the attachments will be a job in the cold here now, step one will be a stop at a car wash to try and blast off as much of the sea salt and residue as I can that way. I'll probably drain the engines and gear boxes of oil and fill all up with light oil or trans fluid and let them sit a while, maybe even add some kerosene to the mix. Both have sat through a few freezing nights already, there's also the chance that if water remained in the motor something could have cracked, it depends on the salt content of that water whether or not it froze or froze bad enough to do damage that way. Its been dropping into the high 20's at night here most nights for the past week and they're predicting 27 degrees tonight.


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## Argee

You might want to invest in some Ospho to assist you with that rust.


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## packrat

I've got something similar here for rust but I think the 416S' rust is beyond that, it needs new metal or a new battery tray area welded in. 
The 3410 isn't as bad but the metal is 1/2 way rusted through or more. I'm thinking sandblasting and reinforcing it from behind, then filling in the exposed surfaces and repainting. I guess old school batteries were hard on these things.


I picked up the two flooded tractors, one is a 7116H, the other I believe is a 7117H. 
They both have 16hp Briggs motors, the motor in the 7116H had no water in the oil or crankcase that I could see, but no oil either. I disconnected the driveshaft and the motor turns fine. I filled and flushed the motor with trans fluid, and refilled with 10W30 Motor oil I had here. It fired right up and sounds ok, I let it run until warm and changed the oil again. 
The bevel gear box pulley will rock, but the input shaft won't budge I removed the belt to the transaxle, checked its fluid and did a drain and refill just in case, I got maybe a table spoon of water in the drain pan. 

The 7117H wasn't so lucky, the motor is locked up tight, I pulled the driveshaft, the driveshaft turns fine. The starter refused to even click as well. (After seeing the condition of the starter on the 7117H's 16hp Briggs, I pulled and took apart the starter on the first tractor, cleaning and relubing everything inside. There was actually sand in the starter. I pulled the head on the 7117H and the cylinder walls are shot, the thing is already severely rusted. There was a rust ring to bust through just to get to the pistion. Apparently as the water seeped down, the floating rust solidified at several levels inside the cylinder. There's a huge split in the side of the cylinder towards the front of the motor as well. The crankcase was full of water nearly to the top of the dipstick. 

The bevel gear box and trans on the 7117H both showed no water at all inside, but both got a fluid change. 

I soaked both machines down with SaltX after a long wash at the car wash today as well before tearing into either of them.

I pulled the Bevel gear box out of the 7116H, the input shaft bearing was rusted so bad it locked up. There was a 50/50 mix of oil and salt water in the BGB. 

I guess I'll be off to the bearing supplier one day this week. 

On the 7116H, the hydraulic lift lever is 'loose', the handle and inside plate is worn, the flats are rounded out on both the handle and the plate that works the valve. 
I may try to weld and refile them to a better fit. 

The 7117H has a good bit of frame rust beneath the battery but its not structural. 
The steering is frozen at the top on both machines, I have both top bushings soaking in PB Blaster. The seat on the 7117H is also soaked due to a few splits on the cover, that one will need a new seat. 
Both batteries are shot, neither battery will take even a volt of charge, even though both are within a year old. Both are most likely filled with saltwater or sat long enough in the brine to short out internally. The wiring on both machines is shot, nearly every wire terminal is green and already eated away enough to be brittle. Most wires fall off at a mear touch. Both will need a complete rewire. The headlight switches are shot, neither will move, the lights on the 7117H are on all the time even though the switch is in the off position. Both ignition switches feel like they're full of sand or broken pieces. Cranking the engine can only be done with jumper wires. 

My main concern will be stopping any rust on the steel, electrical parts will be on my shopping list I guess. The 7116H had its right front spindle seized up as well, so I pulled both spindles, cleaned and regreased for now. 

I got back here late today, and basically lost track of time trying to assess these two machines as well as making sure the salt damage won't progress any further. The same for the plow and disc. I pumped nearly a tube of grease into the fittings on the Brinly disk.
The plow share was coated with wheel bearing grease so it didn't get hurt, and I loosened and greased every nut and bolt as well as the adjustment screw threads. 

The snow plow will need sandblasting, but its identical to the one that came with the 416H. 

I'll get a few pics once I get these back together I guess, right now their spread all over the back porch and shed floor. 
I may try draining the batteries out and refilling them with fresh acid to see if they will take a charge, unless anyone knows for a fact that saltwater did some sort of internal damage that's irreversible?


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## jhngardner367

It sounds as though the engine on the 7117 may have already been bad. I've never known saltwater to cause a crack ,like you described.
As for the batteries,don't bother with trying to refill them. Saltwater in batteries destroys any chance to revive them.


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## packrat

The engine in the 7117 ran fine when I first looked at it, I suppose the crack was from it freezing. A close look shows both the cylinder wall split open as well as the pistion top concaved. The head seems to have survived. The engine looks brand new on the outside, he claimed it was replaced a few years ago. It still has all the warning labels still on the motor about adding oil. 
Considering we've had several nights now with temps in the 20's, freezing is the only thing I can imagine that could cause that sort of damage. There's no way it ran with a 3" vertical split in the cylinder wall and a collapsed piston.

What exactly does saltwater do to a battery internally?


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## jhngardner367

Yeah,that would do it,all right! I forgot you had freezing on top of flooding!


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## packrat

I think I may have a motor for the 7117,
I bought another Snapper at an auction this morning with a running, later model replacement Kohler Magnum 18hp in it. I'm thinking that its better suited in the 7117H. Its no doubt twice the machine the Snapper is. 
The Magnum 18 starts and runs fine as it sits, plus the Snapper has two new rear Carlisle 23x10.50-12 tires on it too. I just need to find a good use now for two motorless Snapper YT18H machines. Its ashame because the Snapper cut grass just fine before I pulled its engine out. 

Does the 851 hydro trans in the Snapper fit anything else? 

I also picked up two older Briggs cast iron engines at the same sale, one a 16hp with points ignition, and a 12hp with a starter generator. The 12hp was on a partially stripped 3112 Simplicity. 

So, yeah, I've now got 10 machines in the yard. To top that off, I think the guy that had the Bolens I originally looked at is in need of cash because he called and threw out a price today for both Bolens machines and all the attachments that may be less than scrap price. That same guy has several other machines for sale, including the Jacobsen GT16, and a dozen or more attachements for the three point hitch machines. 
The Bolens 1250 has a front end loader labeled Johnson, but it looks to be retrofitted off another machine. All the mounts are home made and super heavy duty. That machine comes with a snow plow, dirt plow, Brinly disk, two decks, snow blower, and rear tiller. He's also got a partially stripped 1455 or 1476 there as well plus 7 spare Wisconsin engines. He told me $650 for all the tractors, or $1000 for everything in the garage, including the Craftsman tool box and tools, two table saws, a jig saw, radial arm saw, and two cabinets full of power tools. Plus a 5hp Ingersol Rand air compressor and a commercial glass bead cabinet and dust collection system. He said he's moving out of state, getting away from the high taxes here and moving south. He basically wants me to empty the building. 
I could fill my whole yard if I take everything there. 

I also bought an old Sears snow blower today at the auction, its a steel wheel walk behind single stage unit, it fires right up and everything works. Its got a 3hp gear reduction Briggs engine. Hopefully buying a snow blower will ward off any snow this winter.


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## packrat

I figured I'd add an update here. I went Friday and picked up a total of three Bolens tractors, 1 complete 1250 with a loader, 1 1250 minus some parts but running, and a 1455. The guy called me the other day and tossed out a price I couldn't refuse, I guess he needed Christmas money. 
On top of that I gained both an Allis Chalmers B-1, not running, (no spark), and a Wheel Horse B-80 that ended up being a trade for a table saw I trash picked a few weeks ago.
The Wheel Horse runs and cuts grass but needs some attention. Mainly tie rods as their attached with coat hanger and duct tape. 
This brings the total of tractors in the yard to 15, with a deal pending to swap one that I've got for a Jacobsen and two Cub Cadets, plus a trailer load of both three point and sleeve hitch attachments. 

I'm also going back to the guy that had the three Bolens machines to get some of the other items in the garage he wants gone. 
Along with those above, I also trash picked a vertical shaft Briggs powered Murray, and an old Noma, both of which run but are missing their decks. 
Somehow I figure by the end of the year I'll be at or near 20 machines here. 
So far my favorites are by far the Simplicity and Allis Chalmers tractors, I'm not sure about the Bolens but all of those are Hydrostatic drive. I seem to prefer a geared machine.


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## jhngardner367

Well,you're certainly living up to your name! LOL!!
The Bolens are good tractors,whether geared or hydro. You;ll find they grow on you,once you use them !


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## packrat

So far all I've done with the 1250 is drive it around a bit pulling a trailer. The trans seems like its either geared too low or something. Top speed is half that of the Simplicity 3410 hydro. It don't seem to slip or anything but it takes full throttle to move a 2200 lb trailer around. The Simplicity moves it much easier without so much effort. 
When I step on the pedal, it moves without hesitation, but its like driving a Jeep in 4 wheel low all the time. 
The Bolens does seem to have better control of the trailer on the downhill though, it don't get pushed around as much, the Simplicity gets pushed by the trailer going down the hill into the back yard. Its not much of a hill, it just a decline of about 3' over 100' or so. 
I still have to dig through all the boxes that came with the Bolens machines, so far I found almost two complete three point hitch set ups, but so far I've yet to find the tractor end or U joint for any of the powered attachments. I do have a complete tiller, but the PTO don't work on the 1250 yet, the rod that connects from the lever to the belt tensioner is disconnected or broken. The 1455 needs either an igition module or some sort of fix to modernize the ignition. The module on it appears bad and so long as I've got so many running Simplicity and AC machines, I'm not very likely to shell out the $80 or bucks for a new one. I am seriously thinking of taking the S14 out and putting in the motor from the parts 1250, maybe even swapping over the top end to maintain the 14hp. The 1250 parts motor runs and still uses points. 
There's about fourty boxes of spare parts that came with these, the three machines and all the parts filled a 20' trailer. 

I added another Jacobsen to the mix this morning, I didn't want the tractor but it came with a disc, brinly 10" plow, cutivator, and rear grader blade all in Cat 0 size.
The Jacobsen is a GT180H according to the plate, its got a K341 engine, but it feels like its go no compression. The guy swore it ran when it got parked, but a tree fell across the hood. He gave me all the parts to fix the damage but is rough looking. 
I can't imagine it running in the condition its in now, the wiring is a mess, the ignition switch is in pieces, literally falling out of the dash, there's a couple of jumper wires just hanging off that harness and the battery is duct taped to the left running board wiht a pair of jumper cables for battery cables make permanent with two 1/4" bolts drilled through the battery posts. 
The good part other than all the 3 pt attachments is two brand new rear tires, a case of new air filters, and it was cheap. 

The guy that had the Bolens wants to swap me a Honda 5hp motor that I salvaged from a pressure washer for all the Bolens attachments he still has too. 

At this point I'm starting to wish I had more room, if I was really looking for these things, I'm sure I could fill far more than the yard I have here.

The only thing keeping me from having them all up and running is mainly the cost of batteries, it would take a small fortune to just keep them all in batteries.


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## jhngardner367

Geez, Packrat,you could always make some extra $$,by selling some of the attachments.
That could free up $ for other parts you need. All you have to do is put them here,in the classified section,or on ebay/craigslist.
Just don't accept wire transfers,and check any checks sent,before sending any parts,etc.


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## packrat

I couldn't imagine trying to ship something like a disc or even worse, a lawn roller. 
The one disc has to weigh over 200 lbs. 

I don't mind having two of some attachments, if I decide to do more than the plot I've been planting each year, I could always put someone else on another machine and get the job done twice as fast. 
I played around today with the tiller on the back of the one Bolens, from what I see I think prepping the garden would go faster just plowing it and running the disc over it rather than crawling with the tiller over the whole lot. 
I used the Wheel Horse B-80 today to pull a small manure spreader and the AC 416S to turn it under. I'll leave it that way till spring in hopes we get a good freeze.
Between two trailer loads of compost, a truck load of ground up leaves from the surrounding area, and a few good loads of seasoned manure the ground should be in good shape for next spring. I had limed it pretty heavy a month ago, and I individually fertilize each plant as their put in. If all goes right this year I figure I'll be planting about 3/4 of an acre or so.

I do need to get some ag tires, I've not yet found a good method to keep the chains on while plowing. I basically took two 3/8" fan belts and intalled the chains over the outside and secured inside with a nylon wire tie over the latch, plus a few rubber bungee cords but they still get knocked out of place dragging along in the furrow. 
I'm running about 5 gallons of antifreeze in each tire and I've got a single 50lb weight on the right, and two on the left. Any other combo and I just spin. I also filled the left front wheel for some more offset balance when plowing, it made more difference than I had figured it would.

I made the mistake of putting a new Kevlar belt on the 416S, the old one looked pretty well worn so I grabbed a new one, and went with the top dollar blue kevlar belts from Tractor Supply, with that belt on I couldn't stop it from slipping. I ended up putting the old belt back on. Both belts were the same size, but the original belt was rubber where it rides on the pulleys, the new belt was cloth. It was fine until I tried to make a pull, then it just slipped. The old belt is fine. Both are 'power drive' type belts, but it just don't like the fancy kevlar belt. 
Has anyone else every had an issue like this with a new belt or more specific, a kevlar belt vs. the orignal rubber/nylon belts?


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## Argee

If you pull those discs in tandem with each one in opposing directions you can stir up a lot of soil in a hurry.


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## packrat

Argee: They're set up that way now, the three point discs are all one piece mounted on a frame that way, the sleeve hitch discs are actually two sections bolted together.

I picked up another Jacobsen today. bought it for its wheel weights. They'll come in handy on my other machines. I'm not sure yet but it may get parted out. The motor is supposedly good but I've yet to hear it run. The tires all seem to hold air and have decent tread, but it sat under an open front lean too for years and is surface rusted all over. Not sure what to do with this one. It came only with a deck, which looks to be in decent shape. I'm not sure I want to get into yet another brand of tractor, this one may just be for sale minus its wheel weights. It does have hydraulic lines front and rear and hydraulic lift. The motor is a K341 Kohler 16hp single cylinder.
While it looks like it was probably a decent machine when new, I just don't have the time to learn and hunt parts for another brand, especially one that's rare in this area.

At least with the Bolens and Simplicity machines, there's enough of them around and parts machines to be had when needed. I think this is only the second Jacobsen I've run across here. I attached a pic of the tractor, the tires on the hood are from a golf cart I bought too, the deck isn't in the pic, it was dark outside and still on the trailer when I took this pic. I had to remove the deck to get this on the trailer, the deck was wider than my trailer. Its nearly 6' tall standing on end.


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## jhngardner367

Packrat,that model Jacobsen,is the same as the Ford LGT165.
Jacobsen made the Fords,for several years,and the parts will easily interchange ! It may be worthwhile to keep it,if even for parts !
They had a great hydro trans,on them, and,looking at the lower right of the picture, I can see the auxilliary hydro lines,so it's got the heavier hydro system.


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## packrat

The Jacobsen is a neat looking machine but its pretty rough. 
Its got front hydraulic lines, a rear pto shaft that runs off a belt drive up front, four wheel weights, and lots of rust on the sheet metal. It looks like it laid outside for years. There's vines growing all through the thing. The motor feels like its got no compression, but the pistonis moving up and down, I can feel something with the plug out, but it shows nothing on a compression gauge. Wiring wise its a mess, most all of its wires are either ripped out or chewed up. The ignition switch is hanging from the dash, the headlight switch is broke off, and the choke is moved to the ignition switch hole. There's jumper wires all over and the battery has no box to sit in, it sits on a small shelf, it falls to the ground when you release the side panel. 
It just seems like they made it overly complicated to work on. 

What would the front hydraulic lines be used for? Did they have a hydraulic snow blower or plow?


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## country Gent

*Strong older tractor*

In reading your posts, sounds like you scared away from belt drives. DON'T BE. I pull with a 1975 Sears Suburban 16hp Onan twin. For the 1500 class my tractor with me on it weighs 1500lbs and Full Pulls. Guess what? Stock Kevlar 5/8 belt and it don't slip. On the subject of Onan being expensive, guys are right, BUT they are tough as Hell as long as you take care of them. My 16 hp has NEVER been off the frame since the day it was sold new in 1975. I bought the Suburban used, mowed my 4 acres for 10 years, turned it into a puller and have been pulling with t for 7 years. A few points and condensors, used coil, a couple of carb. kits and AMSOIL FULL SYNTHETIC 30w small engine oil. My 2 cents


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## country Gent

Packrat, Check with NAPA for a rubber KEVLAR belt. I believe they offer them. I get mine from my wholesale supplier.Always double check the physical length on those TSC belts. You can't trust them


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## pullerdad

I have had 2 John Deere 140s and I luv them. Parts are easy to come by if I should ever need them. The local Parts City auto parts store actually had a starter on hand for the 14hp Kohler.


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## JDonly

pullerdad said:


> I have had 2 John Deere 140s and I luv them. Parts are easy to come by if I should ever need them. The local Parts City auto parts store actually had a starter on hand for the 14hp Kohler.


I also have 2 140's and I agree with the phrase 
"If I should ever need them". They rarely break down! I've had mine for 20 years and maybe have spent 100 dollars combined for repairs since I've owned them!


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## jhngardner367

The jacobsen 195/Ford-Jacobsen ht195,had hydro connectors up front ,to power a dual-cylinder blade,and also a front -end loader. They also made a hydro auger for it.
The pic of the rear of the tractor is the pto /3-point unit. They had tillers,and flail mowers it could run,as well as a sickle - bar mower.


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## packrat

country Gent said:


> Packrat, Check with NAPA for a rubber KEVLAR belt. I believe they offer them. I get mine from my wholesale supplier.Always double check the physical length on those TSC belts. You can't trust them


The TSC belt was dead on length wise, it just wouldn't get any traction on the pulleys. The belt itself appears cloth covered, green in color, the belt I took off has smooth rubber where it contacts the pulley grooves. If I'm not mistaken, it was branded Huskee number 4460935. Its a 1/2" x53" belt. 
The original belt looks pretty well worn but works fine. The reason I bought it at TSC is because they were the only place that had that size in stock. Napa had to order it, and the last time I did that they charged me shipping to get a part in stock that they normally didn't carry. 

I tried increasing the spring tension on the idler pulley for the clutch with the new belt but it still slipped. The new belt rides a bit high on the pulleys compared to the old belt which is pretty far below the edges of the pulley grooves.


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## jhngardner367

The low compression is probably a stuck piston ring,from setting.Squirt some PB BLASTER in the cylinder,and let it set for 24 hrs.
The engine is probably a Kholer K361 ,and uses a battery/coil ignition,like a car has.
That tractor is well worth restoring,as they are real work horses. The biggest problem with them,wasthe steering would get "loose in the gearbox,but can be adjusted .


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## packrat

jhngardner367 said:


> The low compression is probably a stuck piston ring,from setting.Squirt some PB BLASTER in the cylinder,and let it set for 24 hrs.
> The engine is probably a Kholer K361 ,and uses a battery/coil ignition,like a car has.
> That tractor is well worth restoring,as they are real work horses. The biggest problem with them,wasthe steering would get "loose in the gearbox,but can be adjusted .


I tinkered with it a bit this morning. I cleaned the points, checked the carb bowl, and spun the starter over with jumper cables, to my surprise it fired right up and ran fine.
The odd part is that there's still no compression to be felt when you spin it over by hand, it spins over almost completely free, but yet it runs fine. The trans moves in both directions, the lift seems to be doing something but I couldn't see underneath with the way I had it rigged up to run. 

By the looks of things like the tires and seat, it don't look like its had many hours of use, just years of sitting outdoors. The only thing I found worn pretty bad is the lift arm in the rear, the left side is worn almost completely through the bracket. The tires are all matching Carlisle turfs, the wheel weights are all Jacobsen, and the battery that was in it was dated 1982. 
Something is missing around the battery tray area, the battery only sits half on the tray, like some part is missing. Its pinned in place by the side panel. I see no means to secure it to where it sits, no hold downs, no straps, etc. The hood is rusted so bad its rusted through, as are the lower corners of the running boards. Anywhere water was able to sit. It no doubt spent the past 20+ years out in the weather. The wiring is shot, what's not ripped up is just plain rigged or missing. Most of the wiring was redone with Romex and speaker wire. Needless to say I ripped all that out right away. There were just too many live wires arching all over the place. Plus, orange plastic wire nuts have no place on a garden tractor.

The ignition switch is wrong, its out of a larger tractor. It don't even fit through the dash hole. The choke cable is shortened, and moved to what was the headlight switch location. The wire from the headlights has an aligator clip on it and was connected to the battery directly. 
To my amazement, the seat and neutral safety switch were still wired into the the jury rigged ignition switch wiring but with clear insulated speaker wire. 
The hood don't latch, its smashed in the middle and no longer closes, there's a cardboard set of spark plug pliers tied to a brace to disconnect the spark plug to shut the thing off I guess. The only wires connected to the ignition switch were battery power and the starter wires. The ignition was also wired on full time. 
When I bought this it did come with remnants of a Ford LGT to use for parts, I have a hood, one side panel, grill, and seat from a Ford, in blue. I don't have the running boards but they can be welded and repaired. The fenders are also rusty but looks saveable. 

I just didn't really want to get into this too far right now, I have other machines here that I do have attachments for that I'd rather get running and in shape. I don't have a three point hitch for the Jacobsen, the only attachment I have is a deck, which does look OK, but also pretty well surface rusted. 

The part I don't get is the near total lack of compression but yet it runs fine, don't even smoke. I see they have a compression release of some sort but will that make them feel like they have no compression? 
The compression is so slight you almost can't feel it. I can spin the motor over freely with the palm of my hand on the flywheel screen or by spinning the driveshaft itself.


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## jhngardner367

What engine does it have ? Single/twin ?


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## packrat

Kohler K341 Single cylinder 

I rigged it up today to pull a wagon around for now, if its running, it might as well be able to do something. Other than pulling a wagon, without any Jacobsen attachments its not of much use to me. A rear tiller to run off that PTO would be nice, but I've got a PTO tiller for the Large frame Bolens too, and the Bolens looks to be a heavier machine? If nothing else, its a bigger machine with more ground clearance.


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## jhngardner367

You can use a different brand of PTO-driven ,3pt attachments,on the Jacobsen. The Ford/Jacobsens are the same,so if you find one for the same years,in Ford,it should fit. 
It takes a pinned u-joint,and a slider shaft which I got at a Tractor Supply store. 
If the 12hp Kohler seems weak,check the points,and timing. If the points are at .020,that's the normal setting. Smaller gap= earlier timing.


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## packrat

The points and condenser are new, the plug is new and I put a Bosch blue coil on it. 
No change. I think its just tired. When I shut it off, it sort of coasts to a stop rather than just stopping. 

I've got a Bolens rear tiller, two of them, one from a large frame and a narrower model off a 1050 tube frame. Both of those run the driveshaft real low, the PTO on the Jake is up high on the left side. The PTO on the Bolens is below the hitch. 
A self powered tiller may be an option though, but I could pull one of those with any tractor with a 3pt hitch.
The main thing would be finding the all the 3 pt hitch parts for the Jake, after that any Cat O attachment would work but the chances of finding those arms and OEM parts are slim.

I do want to cut back on the heard here a bit, I think if its not Bolens or AC/Simplicity its going either for parts or getting sold. 
I ordered some ag lug tires for the two AC machines, so those are here to say. So far I've only gotten to plow with the sleeve hitch set up, it seems to work just fine but I do want to get at least one of the Bolens up and running. 
The biggest issue is buying all these batteries and tires. 

Those that will be going are the Wheel Horse B-80, the New Holland S8, John Deere 112, and maybe the Jake GT16H, its just too much to chase parts for so many brands and I prefer the AC Simplicity machines so far. they seem to be the best built overall. The Bolens front end looks fragile, and parts are a bit of an issue for the Wisconsin motors, the Wheel Horse and JD 112 are both belt drive, both look cool but the AC and Simplicity machines are heavier built. 

I sold the one Cub Cadet, from what I see Cub parts are expensive compared to many others, the potential cost of a new clutch and oddball gear belt deck was enough to make me say goodbye to the Cub. 

The Jake is a solid machine but the closed in sides of the hood and proprietary PTO make it complete only if you have a full array of Jake/Ford attachments. I don't, I only have a deck so its not likely a keeper unless I stumble on a pile of parts and attachments cheap. 

The S8 is a solid little machine but its small and belt drive. I could easily upgrade to a 12hp motor but its still a 1973 belt drive machine. Although the Eaton Hydro on that thing looks pretty bullet proof. A set of new tires and a tune up would have it cutting grass.

The main draw to the Bolens machines is the fact that they came with so many attachments and the fact that the 1250 has a front end loader on it. If I took the time and converted the 1455 back to points by swapping to an earlier block, that too would be a decent machine. 

So far my favorite is the AC 416S, and the one 7116H I've now got running. I can really get used to the hydro lift. 
The 7116H with loaded tires with chains should do well in snow, the AC416S will do the garden work, along with a little B1 I have. If I can find a cheap used set of 6-12 AG tires I think the straight three speed will be great in the garden. If not it'll end up running a set of 23-8.50x12 tires with chains for this season.


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## jhngardner367

My Kohler does the same thing. It's because the compression release kicks in,as the engine slows,so it doesn't keep drawing fuel,and flood the cylinder.
I did say,I believe,that those AC/Simplicity's would grow on you,as would the Bolens. They are really good machines,built when QUALITY really mattered! 
The more I use the Bolens,the more I love it.


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## Case24780

I think you should get a case (1990) or later because those are tougher ones also get a hy driv system because the belt (which is a 210 which is what I have) that's what I think you should get


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## Argee

Case24780 said:


> I think you should get a case (1990) or later because those are tougher ones also get a hy driv system because the belt (which is a 210 which is what I have) that's what I think you should get


I owned two Case 446's and they are mighty fine tractors. Their achilles heel is their differential bolts that hold the cluster together have the propensity to shear off and drop into the bottom of the diff case where they get pinched between the bow gear and case and pop a hole thru. I replaced or and hed welded 3 differential cases in a three year period. Finally decided to cut my losses and sell them.

I now own two Simplicity's and have found them to be an extremely heavy duty machines, with heavy duty frames and axles and differentials they far surpass the Case IMHO.


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## packrat

I actually looked at a few Case machines, several 444, 446, and a handfull of 210 models, everyone was a basket case and the owner wanted big money. One guy wanted $1500 for a 444 with no hood, no motor, no seat and no hydraulic pump, just a rolling chassis with two worn out front tires, new rear tires, and it looked to have been steam cleaned recently. He advertised it as 'ready to go, just add your motor'. 
The 210 didn't run and was real rusty from sitting outside its whole life, and every 446 I looked at either had a blown rear end or blown motor, or both. 
One had a broken rear axle. 
I really like the look of a Power King with the 24" wheels but the few I've seen sold for more than I could buy a small farm tractor for. (The same with a few later model Bolens machines).
What it boils down to is that I need these to do garden work, in a large but not huge garden, plus maybe other tasks around the yard. For $1500 I can get a running, workable Ford 8N or Ferguson TO20 or similar.
At this point most of my tractors I've acquired have been real cheap or free. I doubt if I've got $600 in all 27 of them now. Most need only minor tinkering to get into shape, batteries, points, etc. 

What I need now is spare rims, I'm short on rims for those I've got, a few came to me with car wheels on them or no wheels at all, I need a couple of pair of 8.5" wide 12" rear 5 lug rims plus a set of 6-12 rims and tires. Right now the biggest expense will be tire tubes, nearly every one of these has tires that leak when they sit for a while, the one Bolens had two tires that were leaking green antifreeze when I got it. Most of it leaked out on the ride home, I pumped some out with a syphon hose, the rest covered my tire machine in the garage when I broke down the tire to salvage the rims. They had 235/70-15 radial car tires with 20" tire tubes shoved inside pumped full of what looked to be used antifreeze and oil. The oil softened and ate the tubes, the tires were so dry rotted the antifreeze bled right through the cracked sidewalls and valve stem hole. 

I also had one front tire, a 4.80x8" tire on a Simplicity rim that had a 15" car tire tube shoved inside and inflated. I broke down one rear 23-8.50x12 tire off a Wheel Horse that weighed a ton expecting to find calcium or other fluid and found the tire filled with steel shot about half way. The tire on the other matching rim was filled with sand. Both tires were chewed up on the inside and leaking, the solid fill wore away at the casing of the tire. I looked at a Cub Cadet with narrow 6-12 rear tires that the owner told me had its rear tires filled with concrete, it also had twin air horns mounted to the top of the hood complete with a compressor and air tank hanging off the back. The battery was mounted to a shelf out front, they had a 1231MF truck battery there for starting the tractor. It didn't run but the horns worked.

I just trash picked a Ford YT16, very rusty, two different size front tires, and a blown to bits transaxle. The motor runs, the seat is missing, and the back rims are both rusted through. I basically grabbed it for the motor, plus any scrap value I guess, but in looking it over I see that someone had welded the deck in place, permanently down with a belt running right to the motor pulley. They took bed frame and made four legs to weld the deck to, then stretched a belt into place. Too bad they only powered up one blade that way. They extended the middle blade shaft and raised the pulley up by cuting off one of the other spindles, welding it atop the center blade pulley and ran the belt directly to it. The left spindle was seized, the one they cut off still spun free. All three blades were worn down to near nothing. 
It was the first machine I disassembled completely with a torch and sawzall. The rest went right in the pile outback with the 10 or so junk parted out MTD and Sears machines I've stripped for odd parts. 
My pile is getting bigger, it may be time for a run to the junk yard if scrap values are decent. Between junk tractor bits and busted up rototiller and snow blowers I should have enough to pay for gas and beer for a while.


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## packrat

jhngardner367 said:


> My Kohler does the same thing. It's because the compression release kicks in,as the engine slows,so it doesn't keep drawing fuel,and flood the cylinder.
> I did say,I believe,that those AC/Simplicity's would grow on you,as would the Bolens. They are really good machines,built when QUALITY really mattered!
> The more I use the Bolens,the more I love it.


I really thought that I'd like the Cub Cadets more, but the cost of parts pretty much puts those out of the picture. Considering most that are cheap enough to be had are 'well worn', most will be in need of things like new clutches, and expensive CC only parts. A buddy bought a 128 I had looked at that needed a trans repair, he figured the trans would be a simple fix, that simple fix ended up costing $377 in parts alone, plus a clutch, plus four new tires.

My only peeve with the Simplicity machines is that the final drive to the rear is a belt, and they use an oddball rear differential/axle set up. I've gotten nearly every one of mine to slip the belt at some point. The shuttle drives do this the most. 
The Bolens Achilles heel is its front end, I've looked at 6 large frames now with shattered front cross members. 
At least the Bolens uses as fairly universal 3pt hitch set up. 
Its similar to the Jacobsen but a lot heavier with better ground clearance. I also fit better on the Bolens. 
I just feel the Bolens would be a better machine if it were gear drive vs hydrostatic.


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