# building that takes forever



## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I know this has nothing to do with tractors but You all are smart and I fiqured you all could help. If this is a no no please ignor and delete.

I am building a shop/shed/barn all in one. it is going to have a Gambrel roof and a 2nd floor for storage. The plans I purchased said to use 2x6 for my 16 foot joist span. But I wanted to build it a little hardier so I bought 2x8x16. 

I have been at this for over 3 years and have learned a lot. I have used 1/2x12"plywood for the gussets instead of 7/16x6"osb. 2x12x16 instead of 2x6x16 for the floor joist/bands. Used Cap blocks with 4"rock and gravel as base and black plastic over rock.
Everything is 16"OC instead of 24"OC.
Plans did not mention wall sheathing, I added 7/16 osb then Tyvek before my smart sideing.

But now i"m at the point of adding 2nd floor and I am thinking I need to upgrade to a 2x10x16 instead of the 2x8x16 that I already purchased. I bought the materials years ago so I can't exchange them but I don't want the floor to buckel or fall either. I thought that if the plans said to use 2x6x16 and I went to a 2x8x16 that I should be good, I'm not sure, after I looked into it.

What can I do? 
Bite the bullet and buy the 2x10x16?
Double every other 2x8x16?
Use Blocking?
or a Multiple of each?

I am going to be storing some hay, house goods, seasonal items, furniture, a lot of things but nothing more than 30lbs per sq foot I think.

also I just came in from trying to put on the house wrap and found water in between the rolls, someone left it out for the rain to get it. Any idea if it can still be used?

Thank you.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2018)

IDK why the house wrap isn't still usable. Knowing what I've done in the past that didn't work. If you can see your way clear, I'd go at least 2x10 (maybe 12" centers?) if not 2x12 for the joists. and yes blocking to distribute some of the load. You only have 1 chance.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Well, let me put it to you this way. I have a floor span of 15 feet (16 feet out to out of the wall line. My joists are 2X10 on 1 foot centers with a row of blocking down the middle. It's fairly solid but I'm almost 280 pounds and you can feel me walking on it. If you are stacking hay up there, I'd go no less than 2X10 @ 16 inch centers. 2X6 is about what you'd want to hang drywall on the lid, but way too light for a floor. Steer clear of wood with large knots especially near the edges. Blocking doesn't really add to the strength so much as it keep the joists (framing) plumb / straight so that they can carry the load. If the ceiling below isn't going to be finished, I'd go blocking, then run a 1X6 on the underside of the joists directly under the blocking line and by doing that, it keeps the bottoms of the joists right on layout and the blocks keep the joists straight laterally, preventing them from rolling or tweaking under load, and also prevents cupping. The added 1X6 on the bottom ties everything together on layout as mentioned. It acts like the plywood above in essence. I really actually don't like "Beaver Board" (OSB). I know it's strong like plywood, but if anything starts coming delaminated, with plywood, you still have solid wood there, as opposed to oatmeal with OSB. Be sure to use subfloor adhesive on the floor sheeting such as PL 4000.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Got a phone call right in the middle of my last post, sorry for the lack of continuity of thought.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Yea thats what I thought. I guess thats why the web address is "Cheapsheds.com" 
They said "I make the following recommendation for lumber in the floor of the loft.. • 2x4's are ok for 8 ft wide sheds • 2x6's for 10 & 12 ft wide sheds • 2x8's for 14 & 16 ft wide sheds"

Any ideas on the wrap?


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

any one know about those nails with the plastic cups. should i use them or stapels?


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2018)

the nails with plastic washers are for 1/4 foam. Regular house wrap is stapled.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

OMF, how are you going about attaching the second story floor to your walls? I'm assuming for a second here that your outside walls are balloon framed (continuous to the roof) and that you'll be attaching ledgers to the inside of your outside walls...... Will you eventually be sheeting the inside at all? Any photos of the inside where the second story floor will be?


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

I agree, some pictures of your project would be great. As for the span, there are plenty of "joist span calculators" out there.
For example : https://www.wclib.org/resources/calculators/maximum-span/


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Hoodoo Valley said:


> OMF, how are you going about attaching the second story floor to your walls? I'm assuming for a second here that your outside walls are balloon framed (continuous to the roof) and that you'll be attaching ledgers to the inside of your outside walls...... Will you eventually be sheeting the inside at all? Any photos of the inside where the second story floor will be?


Haven't started 2nd floor yet.
It's been Raining all weekend almost continuously. Dry today hopefully i'll get wrap and smart siding done. 

Every time it rains, and it has rained a lot this year, I have to cover it. 

I'll shoot some pics today.

OMF


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

OMF, is the roof on?


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Just got the walls up the other day. Heres some pics. lets here what you all think.
I know its not perfect and I need to hear all the concerns and comments you got.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

You've still got some work ahead of you! I was thinking you had a slab on grade. What you have is essentially a "ground set" like a mobile home, so this will limit you as to how much load you're going to be able to put in it. It's hard to tell, but are those 6X6 members sitting on the blocks, that your floor joists stack on?


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

I see lots of little things, such as what appears to be rail roaded joints in the wall sheer.... in other words, the joints stack, and they should be alternated like bricks, so that you don't have a continuous seam on one stud. Also, joints in your top plate should be directly over studs. Nonetheless, the sheets are run horizontal, which is the way they're supposed to for strength axis. Can't tell from the photos but the joints in your sheeting are suppose to be gapped about an 8d nail width especially with all the rain you've been getting. If you go tight, then the sheeting gets exposed to moisture, which even humidity can cause expansion, then the sheets start cupping between the framing. I've had to go back through with a Skilsaw and cut every single joint in a building despite spacing the panels because the sheets were buckling, but this was after a lot of rain, which we get at times here in Idaho.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Otherwise, it looks like a nice tight job you've done. You're doing a great job. You have ample shear on either side of the garage door. Only concerns out in front of you now that I'd be addressing is off that back of your building, I'd be concerned about lateral movement and so I'd try to limit that with some sort of bracing. They make these brackets for mobile home ground sets that are essentially a foot kind of like an outrigger on a back hoe, then the foot has two directional bracing and the foot is pushed into the ground with a jack and the buildings weight. Two on a mobile home here in Idaho.... qualify the home as "Real Property" even without a foundation and can be financed! In your application, there's not a lot you can do for uplift, but attaching bracing from the bottom most blocks in your piers to your rim, will prevent lateral movement if you got to playing rough in your building, or in the event of high winds hitting the side of your buildings long side. The other is that if you used 2X10 up on your second floor, this would allow you to potentially load the building to where your piers would start pushing into the ground (settling). You can always jack things up and or add more piers down the road, but if you go too stout on the second floor framing, then do an endurance test, your piers are going to be the week link.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

OMF, failure to clarify...... The bracing I spoke of at the rear of your building, is mentioned, because a strong enough gust of wind on the long side of your building, could potentially knock it off the blocks (piers). So it's important to make sure you have some form of bracing. Not much you can do for uplift, but the bracing is a quick simple thing that can be done, that could save your building from coming off the piers. Wish I lived nearby so I could pitch in and help you get that building dried in. As I understand it, sounds like you folks have some rain coming. That subfloor can actually take a crap ton of water and weather exposure, but I have had to cut out sections and replace in homes that I've built as we worked through the Winter with the freeze thaw cycles.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Here is a pic when we started. Thoses are 6x6 PT rails setting on solid 2.5" cap blocks. At 1st I thought there was only going to be a land level diff of 6" but it turned out to be more. The smaller CAP blocks make it look higher then it is.

We layed down about 4-6" of gravel. You can see every spot we blocked. Every 4 feet or less. We cemented each block together. Then we put down black plastic and wrapped it around the blocks and used spray glue for the plastic to stay on the blocks.

We tried to use piers but couldn't get the post further than 8" down before hitting boulders.

We layed 5 across and 9 length wise.

What if I were to put 1 6x6 (PT)or something else sturdy, down past frost line in concrete at each rear corner? if I can get it down that far.

Or any suggestions?

I mean its only a shop, right. Well wait a minute, if my new dog and wife don't start getting along I may be livin in it.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Looks good, but I'd be concerned with the building sitting on blocks like that. 
Is your building 16 x 32? I don't think I'd go less than 2 x 10 joists maybe even 2 x 12's. Are you getting trusses built, or are you going to build your own? Only mention that as you could use up a lot of your 2 x 8's building the gambrel roof trusses. Also, I've seen a few buildings with 45 degree bracing from the walls to the roof / second floor joist to cut down the span. If this bracing extends two feet into the shed on either side, you could perhaps be looking at a 12' span, for instance. Talk to your building inspector, or perhaps one of the guys here can discuss that with you. Like john mentioned earlier, you get one chance and once it's done, it's mighty expensive to change the floor joists. 
Check out my thread where I put the gambrel roof on top of my barn, May give you some ideas.








I bought the trusses, they came in three pieces. The two sides and the cross tie. I made and installed the gussets. I also used a winch and my tractor to stand the darn things up, as they were very heavy!


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Another question for you all.

My house wrap covers the entire sheathing wall plus about 8" above and about 6" below the sheathing, about 6" down the 2x12. 
My question, 
can I flod the wrap over the top sil/plate and nail on the inside or not? 
and how far down do I need to take it?


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

It should start at the very bottom of your rim joist or hang down a 1/2 inch or so, and sense you are going to be adding additional framing, you want to fold it outward at the top plate then light tack it with your slap hammer so that the staples stick out slightly. Then, after you complete you second floor (I assume you are not building a second story wall of any height, but that the roof will stack on the floor?) then gingerly pop out those partial tacked staples at your folded over top portion of the house wrap and run it up to you roof eave and staple it permanent.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

The trusses were going to rest on the top plate and the 2x10x16 would also rest on the top plate attached to the truss. Until recently I have not put much thought in the plans I bought, i am follow what they say and im getting the idea the plans are not what i wanted. any suggestions on 2nd floor/storage joist attachment. 

I have rafter hangers that attach to the top sill/plate and the truss and timber lags that would go thru the top sill/plate and into each truss.

The roof has a angel of 22.5x2 so there wont be much dancing room but should be enough for storage if I get it done and it not fall down on me.

I may have to add a king and jack for the 2x10 joist just under the top plate. At the angel 22.5 of the truss that dose not leave much room for the joist on the top plate.

i'm definitely getting over whelmed. 

and thank you for reminding me about sheathing gap. I knew it, and I did it for the floor, I even 8,4,8,4 spacing on the sheathing but i forgot the tiny little gaps.

oh well, i went over it with a large blade in my circ saw and that did the trick. The gap should be fine now just over 1/8.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Have a look at these plans. I used them as a guide to build my barn. Look at the way the second floor is installed and how the roof is put on top. Use your own dimensions, but use these plans as a guide to point you in the right direction. I also used Simpson Hurricane ties to re-enforce the attachment of the roof trusses to the main building.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Your walls are about 96 inches tall, actually about 97 inches. I assume that your trusses are flat bottomed (common truss) with no webbing in the middle portion. The way I'd do it, since you want to strengthen your second story floor, and you don't want to lose height on the bottom floor.... is I'd build your floor right in top of the top plate i.e. rim it and add your joists. Don't sheet the floor yet. Next, add top plate to the sides where your trusses would attach, and a single 2X4 in the middle of the span of your floor to keep the joists on layout in the center of the span. Now add your trusses! The trusses will sit on the top plates that you added on top of your joists, and the bottom chord of the truss will make contact on the 2X4 in the center of the span, and allow you to nail the truss right to that 2X4. This would give you somewhat of a floor where you can set a sheet or two of plywood up there as you roll your trusses, just be sure to temp tack your plywood so that you don't step on an unsupported edge and fall. Just keep moving your plywood as you roll the trusses. Once the trusses are rolled, then you can sheet your floor. Am I making sense?


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Hoodoo Valley said:


> a single 2X4 in the middle of the span of your floor to keep the joists on layout in the center of the span.


This is the only thing i'm not sure about. The 2x4 would run the length of the barn the same as the new top plate but in the center of the trusses on the joist?


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Correct. This just keeps the joists and the bottom chord of the trusses on layout, so that the bottom chord of the truss stacks directly over the joist and gives you a way to toenail the truss or allow you to use truss clips. This way the joists back up your bottom chord of the truss. You could even add 2 or 3 in the span dividing the span into thirds or fourths.


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## PJ161 (Sep 12, 2016)

Lota work for one person, but that's going to be one nice looking building when done! Hope you get it closed in before bad weather hits! PJ


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

I sent you a PM OMF. Did you get it?


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Hoodoo Valley said:


> I sent you a PM OMF. Did you get it?


Yes I did but I dont like bothering people unless absolute necessary, also I haven't time to work on it today.

Also my trusses do not have bottom chords. It's just a stick gambrel. I'm trying to sweet talk the mgr of the wood supplier to see if he will take back the 2x8x16 to save me almost 3bills before i get to a point of no return on the roof/2nd flr/joist.

I'll follow your PM friday?


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Perfect! If there's no bottom chord on the trusses, then just build your floor and then plate the perimeter and roll your trusses. Any chance you can copy your prints here OMF? Yeah, you can call me whenever. I enjoy helping folks out, though it's much more fun in person!


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

The Tall Barn style shed plans are the ones for the style I am building.

As you will see I did some upgrades, but I didn't upgrade enough.

I changed some of the wood, added wrapping, added sheathing, used screws instead of nails, glued almost everything, up graded the headers, upgraded sub floor to Advantech, ply wood for gussets, enlarged the gussets, and maybe more but cant remember.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

I went to view them OMF, but they were downloaded agonizingly slow, as in 8 minutes at least. I'll look them over later today when perhaps the net is faster. Still call me if you need.


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## deerhide (Oct 20, 2016)

oldmanfarmer said:


> Yea thats what I thought. I guess thats why the web address is "Cheapsheds.com"
> They said "I make the following recommendation for lumber in the floor of the loft.. • 2x4's are ok for 8 ft wide sheds • 2x6's for 10 & 12 ft wide sheds • 2x8's for 14 & 16 ft wide sheds"
> 
> Any ideas on the wrap?


What are you putting wrap on for, what purpose do you think it has?


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I may be wrong but wrap helps keep moister out and not let it in the walls. We have a lot of humidity here (83% today) and mold can be a problem along with termites and carpenter ants.

Besides I got 2-9 foot tall rolls with about 50% remaining for 5 dollars from a Restore. I also got 3 Anderson windows for $25, A Full roll of Ice and rain shield for $12, a case of Loctite Pl 3x for $12 almost picked up my shingles there but I wanted a one color roof so I bought them instead. Couldn't afford metal.

Restore has also supplied 14/2 and 12/2 wire, rough in boxes, fixtures. If they ever have New outlets and switches ill pick those up there. 

They had a new Squard D 200 amp center but the hubby of the person that donated it came back and claimed it. Husbands let that be a warning, when your spouse says "you clean the garage or ill do it" you know to get your but out there and get r done.

Restore is a great place to shop if you inspect your purchases. some times things can be past use dates or frozen, locked up, so on and so on. 

I kind of got on a soap box there.

Are there negative impacts on me wrapping it?


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

No. 


oldmanfarmer said:


> I may be wrong but wrap helps keep moister out and not let it in the walls. We have a lot of humidity here (83% today) and mold can be a problem along with termites and carpenter ants.
> 
> 
> Are there negative impacts on me wrapping it?


No. you done right. Regular Tyvec actually allows moisture out where the regular house wrap doesn't I don't believe, but installing any sort of moisture / vapor barrier to a building is a good thing.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

Are you planning on insulating the building?


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

I wrapped my garage in the fall of the year I built it and left it for the winter. No issues at all, stayed nice and dry.
Our local Restore is a disaster! I've had a look a few times, and the stuff they have is pretty much the same price as Home Depot!! So I buy new. Think about the metal roofing costs compared to shingles with the added cost of sheathing. Might not be a big difference in price. Might be easier for you to shingle though, just make sure to set yourself up right to get the rows straight!


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Hoodoo Valley said:


> Are you planning on insulating the building?


NO insulating plans in the near future but eventually.


pogobill said:


> Our local Restore is a disaster!


Some restores should research items before trying to sell them. 
This store seems to mark things between 50% to 75% of what other stores sale that item for, But some times you get deals. 
I like deals.

I hear that the 1st two row of shingles are the most important one's to get right, then the others will follow.


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## Guest (Sep 15, 2018)

Chaulk lines are good things. Maybe look at This Old House videos on their website to see how to make up and place the first rows of shingles. Placement is important to prevent water from running back up under bottom lip of shingles.


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## Hoodoo Valley (Nov 14, 2006)

I hope you're faring okay what with the storm OMF. Haven't heard from you in a bit. I assume you have no power. Just worried and wondering.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Hoodoo Valley said:


> I hope you're faring okay what with the storm OMF. Haven't heard from you in a bit. I assume you have no power. Just worried and wondering.


Were fine. thanks for asking. 
The storm will hit us tonight and tomorrow. 

We will have flooding and our road by the creek will flood over but if it gets by the house you better be on a Ark. we live on a top of a hill/mountain. the drive is approx 3/4 mile long at a 15 degree angle/height form the water, so god would have to be pi$$ed for the rain water to get this high.

But I am praying for every one that has to go thru the storm and all the misery that's attached.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

If the weather lets up i'm gonna pick up on the shop and start the loft/2nd floor storage level.

I decided to go with the 2x10x16 joist but when I make the rims and they don't have 30 foot bds can I use nailers or would i need to sandwich the 2bys like i did for the main floor?

On the 2nd level floor is only house hold storage, no hay.

By the way guys, I got the house wrap on it and I did it with one wrap and a 9' roll by my lonesome, and only a small ripple. I post pictures soon.


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