# Losing Power Uphill Only



## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

So I have an LB2204 Kioti tractor. Same basic machine as the Kubota L245DT. Runs great, plenty of power out of the DH1101 3-cyl diesel engine. Problem is that when I'm facing uphill and I don't have a full tank of fuel, I lose power because the fuel is gravity feed, and the tank is behind the engine. Today I was removing some boulders from an area and had to get up a very steep incline to get to them with the loader. It was so steep the engine stalled out and I had to coast all the way to level again to get it to start and stay running again. I wanted the 4x4 specifically because of my hillside property, so having it not want to run while I'm facing uphill is a huge problem. I'd like to solve this by adding a lift pump of some kind to get the fuel to the injection pump when this is happening.

If I can I'd like to keep it mechanical, and since there isn't a provision on this engine for one as far as I know, I was looking at impulse style fuel pumps like those used on the Briggs V-Twins. Could one of those be made to work off the vacuum on this engine or am I stuck with the electric fuel pump option? Thanks to anyone who has some insight.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Just how steep is this hill??, if the hill is that steep that the fuel tank goes below the injection pump to stop fuel flow, then no pump will help and really you shouldn't be working a tractor on the hill that steep, what I have written may be an exaggeration, but you haven't passed on the angle of the hill you are working on.

I think I would use the electric pump over the Briggs type if you want to go that way, much easier to wire in the electric( bridge from the solenoid kill wire so it is activated when you start the tractor) than have to plumb, drill and tap a vacuum outlet in the inlet manifold, not unless there is a tapped plug in place, but this is your choice of course.

Have you thought of reversing up the hill seeing the tractor has 4WD, carry an implement on the 3 points for extra weight and traction.


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

FredM said:


> Just how steep is this hill??, if the hill is that steep that the fuel tank goes below the injection pump to stop fuel flow, then no pump will help and really you shouldn't be working a tractor on the hill that steep, what I have written may be an exaggeration, but you haven't passed on the angle of the hill you are working on.
> 
> I think I would use the electric pump over the Briggs type if you want to go that way, much easier to wire in the electric( bridge from the solenoid kill wire so it is activated when you start the tractor) than have to plumb, drill and tap a vacuum outlet in the inlet manifold, not unless there is a tapped plug in place, but this is your choice of course.
> 
> Have you thought of reversing up the hill seeing the tractor has 4WD, carry an implement on the 3 points for extra weight and traction.


I don't really have a frame of reference to tell you grade, so steep is all I got. It's getting towards the limit of what I would consider safe to run the machine on but well within them traction and stability-wise, otherwise I wouldn't try it. Bottom of fuel tank is about level with inlet of injection pump so I lose some head in the tank as soon as it's on any incline. The idle RPMs actually drop when it's facing slightly uphill on a 1/4 tank. Injection pumps aren't made to create suction on the inlet side.

It doesn't have an electric fuel kill solenoid. It's all mechanical, but wiring is not the issue. It's that the aftermarket electric fuel pumps aren't reliable in my experience. The one on my zero turn was 17 years old before it failed. My brother put one of those electric pumps on his pickup and he seemed to be fiddling with it every few months. I'd just like to know if that style pulse pump will work fine with diesel or if I'll run into problems. I know it would flow enough gas because my mower uses more fuel to make the same power, but diesel might be a different story. 

I've got a back blade on it with extra weight and it still doesn't like going uphill backward as much as forward, especially since it's got turf tires. I'd prefer not to go that route.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Righto, not sure how the pulse pump would shift diesel fuel, being a little more heavier that gas, and having a 3 cylinder engine, I wonder if there would be any pulses or a complete vacuum, I guess the answer would be to hook in the pulse pump to a vacuum source on the inlet manifold and have a short length suction and delivery hose from a bottle with diesel fuel and the delivery hose into an empty bottle and start the engine and see if it pumps before you go cutting into the fuel supply hose on the tractor.

I don't think diesel will affect the diaphragm at all, lots of tractors with the mechanical fuel pump have the rubber style diaphragm and they seem to go forever.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

I would think a good pump could easily handle a bit of suction head pressure. I would suspect the pump is going. Is there a way to test it? Are you possibly using the wrong fuel?


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

Groo said:


> I would think a good pump could easily handle a bit of suction head pressure. I would suspect the pump is going. Is there a way to test it? Are you possibly using the wrong fuel?


Relatively new to diesel engine tech here, but over the last 5 years I've worked on several now and done a lot of study and every machine I've looked at either has a gravity feed or lift pump to get fuel to the injection pump if the tank is downhill of it. I would think that if they were good at generating suction you'd see them without lift pumps even if the tank was downhill of the injection pump. 

In support of this theory, a friend of mine recently had issues with his '05 Yanmar powered Deere, and that thing wouldn't start and run at all when the mechanical lift pump went bad. Not a lot of hours so injection pump was in basically new condition. It just couldn't get the fuel it needed without that little bit of supply pressure. 

Engine runs perfect with either a full tank or on level ground when it's getting plenty of pressure. I don't think it's got a bad injection pump.

Fuel is brand new. Just topped it off last week from a local station that sees a lot of traffic.


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

So I think I've answered my own question. Diesel engines produce almost no vacuum in the intake because they've got no throttle plate, so the pulse pump probably won't work. I think I'm just going to go with an electric lift pump.


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

So I was just looking again on the off chance that there was a provision for a mechanical lift pump on this engine and it looks like there's a boss for it but it's blanked off. I also got another look at the tank and found that the bottom is actually below the injection pump's inlet completely, so I only have maybe 2 inches of head at the current level which is pretty close to half full. No wonder it stalled. I definitely need to do this mod.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

RandR10 said:


> So I think I've answered my own question. Diesel engines produce almost no vacuum in the intake because they've got no throttle plate, so the pulse pump probably won't work. I think I'm just going to go with an electric lift pump.


There would be a small amount of vacuum in the intake manifold through the resistance of the air cleaner and the fact that if you had an orifice tapped further into the manifold and with the air charge rushing past said orifice, there would be a vacuum created, a vacuum gauge would indicate the amount, but would there be pulses strong enough to pulse the fuel pump is the question.

I am sure if you get a quality electric fuel pump you shouldn't have any trouble, British Motor Corporation that produced the Austin and Morris vehicle line among others and only used electric fuel pumps and these run for many years without trouble.



RandR10 said:


> So I was just looking again on the off chance that there was a provision for a mechanical lift pump on this engine and it looks like there's a boss for it but it's blanked off. I also got another look at the tank and found that the bottom is actually below the injection pump's inlet completely, so I only have maybe 2 inches of head at the current level which is pretty close to half full. No wonder it stalled. I definitely need to do this mod.


With the tank outlet as you say, then that is a bit of a suck seeing there is no lift pump installed, CAV injection pumps have a vane type rotary fuel pump built in, not all injection pumps are pumpless.


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

I don't mean to horn in on your conversation here, friend, and first off I admit I don't know squat about your Kioti (or any other Kioti for that matter). However, I thoroughly support the idea of an electric pump. Not just in your case, but so much so that I have one or two on the shelf pretty much at all times. I have installed a great many over the years on all sorts of tractors and have solved a great many such issues.

I wondered how long it would take you to figure out that the vacuum "small engine" style won't work on a diesel engine. I have no idea what style injection pump you have, but I suspect it's the common inline multi-plunger unit "Zexel" type used on most other compact tractor diesels? If so it has NO suction on it's own, so gravity is all you have. A standard auto parts house electric pump will most likely solve the problem your fighting. 

What you go with is your choice of course, but this is the type/style I use. Easy to find, easy to mount, and I have good luck with them long term. 









12V Standard Facet Universal Electric Fuel Pump Metal Petrol & Diesel 2.5-4 PSI | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 12V Standard Facet Universal Electric Fuel Pump Metal Petrol & Diesel 2.5-4 PSI at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

FredM said:


> There would be a small amount of vacuum in the intake manifold through the resistance of the air cleaner and the fact that if you had an orifice tapped further into the manifold and with the air charge rushing past said orifice, there would be a vacuum created, a vacuum gauge would indicate the amount, but would there be pulses strong enough to pulse the fuel pump is the question.
> 
> I am sure if you get a quality electric fuel pump you shouldn't have any trouble, British Motor Corporation that produced the Austin and Morris vehicle line among others and only used electric fuel pumps and these run for many years without trouble.
> 
> ...


This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone recommend british electrical components for reliability on anything.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

RandR10 said:


> So I was just looking again on the off chance that there was a provision for a mechanical lift pump on this engine and it looks like there's a boss for it but it's blanked off. I also got another look at the tank and found that the bottom is actually below the injection pump's inlet completely, so I only have maybe 2 inches of head at the current level which is pretty close to half full. No wonder it stalled. I definitely need to do this mod.


so, a corning cutting repair to sell the machine to an unsuspecting customer?


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Groo said:


> This is the first time I have ever heard of anyone recommend british electrical components for reliability on anything.


You don't appear to read very well, that was a comparison of the workings and reliability of electrical fuel pumps and British YES!!, there were many British motor vehicles in OZ and British Motor Corporation was one that run electric fuel pumps in the day and the pumps were reliable.

If you were to read post #2 you will see I suggested using an electric fuel pump and not the pulse pump.

Today's electric fuel pumps are way ahead in design and modern electronics, so yes, I agree the OP should go electric.


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

Groo said:


> so, a corning cutting repair to sell the machine to an unsuspecting customer?


WTF is that supposed to mean?


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

RandR10 said:


> WTF is that supposed to mean?


Whoever owned it before seemingly removed a failed mechanical lift pump and just kept the fuel tank full, as it was laid out here


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

Groo said:


> Whoever owned it before seemingly removed a failed mechanical lift pump and just kept the fuel tank full, as it was laid out here


I'm sorry. My bad. I thought you were implying this was my plan. Apologies for being short.

In answer though, I don't think this was an owner repair omission. It was Daedong's very first attempt at a complete tractor. They had been building engines and drivetrains for decades, but nothing complete. I don't see any provision in the parts manual for a lift pump either. They just messed up that part of it it seems. Could be that engineering wanted one but some accountant came in and nixed it. Either way, it needs one, so I'm going to add it.


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## John W Baron (Dec 16, 2020)

RandR10 said:


> So I have an LB2204 Kioti tractor. Same basic machine as the Kubota L245DT. Runs great, plenty of power out of the DH1101 3-cyl diesel engine. Problem is that when I'm facing uphill and I don't have a full tank of fuel, I lose power because the fuel is gravity feed, and the tank is behind the engine. Today I was removing some boulders from an area and had to get up a very steep incline to get to them with the loader. It was so steep the engine stalled out and I had to coast all the way to level again to get it to start and stay running again. I wanted the 4x4 specifically because of my hillside property, so having it not want to run while I'm facing uphill is a huge problem. I'd like to solve this by adding a lift pump of some kind to get the fuel to the injection pump when this is happening.
> 
> If I can I'd like to keep it mechanical, and since there isn't a provision on this engine for one as far as I know, I was looking at impulse style fuel pumps like those used on the Briggs V-Twins. Could one of those be made to work off the vacuum on this engine or am I stuck with the electric fuel pump option? Thanks to anyone who has some insight.


*1. Fuel supply obstruction problem*

Fuel supply obstruction has coincidentally been one of the leading Kioti tractor complaints of late. Experts say the problem is mostly caused by trapped air in the fuel line. 

That is, the fuel line may ingest air thereby cracking the smooth flow of the fuel. This will interfere with the fuel supply to the engine making your machine stop working. 

Another common incident that may not be good news to Kioti tractor lovers in colder states is fuel freezing in the fuel system. The weather can go so cold that the fuel may form some ice pellet in the fuel tank outlet nipple making it impossible to flow. 

Something I also experienced recently with my Kioti tractor is the fuel line squeezed by bulky loading in the tractor underside. 

For that reason, if your tractor experienced a loss of power all of sudden, the fuel supply system should be the first area to check. 

The fuel line system generally has two sections: from the tank to the filter then from the filter to the injection pump (IP). Just pluck and observe one section at a time. 

If it is air trapped you may attempt to pull it if you have a vacuum pump. Or use some compressed air and block back through the fuel line – don’t use too much pressure. 
-----------------------------
Also, I have a CK 3510 hst and when carrying logs in my front grapple if I try to go uphill in medium speed the machine slows and seems to stall no matter what throttle position. I put it in low range and go right up the incline keeping speed down and load close to the ground.


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## tim Barricklow (Jan 14, 2019)

scab on to a pump from a diesel pickup truck or another type of diesel tractor


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

John W Baron said:


> *1. Fuel supply obstruction problem*
> 
> Fuel supply obstruction has coincidentally been one of the leading Kioti tractor complaints of late. Experts say the problem is mostly caused by trapped air in the fuel line.
> 
> ...


Seems like your tractor could use an electric fuel pump too.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

John W Baron's text is mainly a copy from this site:








5 Common Problems with Kioti Tractors {Solutions Provided}







uphomely.com





I know nothing about these tractors but I got an idea:
If air gets in to the lines, depending on how the lines and filter(s) are routed, could this result in air trapped in the filter head?

If so, depending on what the filter head and its connections look like, air could be trapped at the top of the fuel filter head without disturbing the fuel delivery under normal conditions. When the tractor (and filter(s)) are inclined uphill, the air pocket moves to the fuel outlet in the filter head and the fuel supply is disturbed.


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## boatmoter (Feb 27, 2015)

sounds like only options are to remove fuel tank and drill hole in the bottom rear ( closest to the driver ) and braze,solder or weld a 5/16 barbed fitting on to it to reposition the fuel pick up, or install a electric fuel pump for a carbureted engine.since you need low fuel pressure. I have one on my john deere 320. been working great for over 3 years now. purchased mine from Amazon, their much cheaper then the OEM pumps, just add a filter before the pump . with the problem your having, going with a pump,you may have to remove tank and weld a long steel line from the top to the bottom where the fuel settles when the front of the tractor is on that steep hill..


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## boatmoter (Feb 27, 2015)

also,going on that steep hill, if the fuel is relocated so it does not get picked up, do you think the oil in the oil pan will also be away from the pickup to lube the engine?


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

So I just got back from a trip up north and wired/plumbed the new pump in today. Tucked right in there nicely. It got dark before I was finished, so I haven't been able to test it properly quite yet but it runs great with the click clack pump on there. Seems to be a bit smoother idling and better throttle response too, but it's possible I'm imagining that. We'll see how it does when I get the loader back on and run it through its paces. I'm also interested to see how it starts up cold with this on there. Don't know if it'll make a difference. While I was putting this together today I realized it was silly worrying about the reliability considering that I know it will run fine if I just bypass the pump and keep the fuel topped off like it was before. If it does fail and I desperately need it to run before parts come in, I'll just do that.


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

boatmoter said:


> sounds like only options are to remove fuel tank and drill hole in the bottom rear ( closest to the driver ) and braze,solder or weld a 5/16 barbed fitting on to it to reposition the fuel pick up, or install a electric fuel pump for a carbureted engine.since you need low fuel pressure. I have one on my john deere 320. been working great for over 3 years now. purchased mine from Amazon, their much cheaper then the OEM pumps, just add a filter before the pump . with the problem your having, going with a pump,you may have to remove tank and weld a long steel line from the top to the bottom where the fuel settles when the front of the tractor is on that steep hill..


There's no pickup. It's got a barb off the bottom of the tank that gravity feeds through a cartridge filter/water separator and then into the injection pump from there. Tank tapers on the bottom too so you'd have to be almost 90 degrees to get it to not pick up fuel. The issue isn't with it not picking up fuel, it's with loss of fuel pressure because the bottom of the tank is actually slightly below the injection pump inlet. As you angle the front of the machine up a grade, it drops that tank lower and lower below the injection pump inlet to the point where if the tank isn't full, the fluid doesn't create enough head pressure to supply the injection pump and then it stalls. 

For illustration, imagine you're trying to siphon something out of a fuel tank and you raise the end of the hose above the tank. The fuel will stop flowing because it won't siphon uphill. Also, the lower you drop the end of the hose below the tank, the more head pressure and better flow you get. Same effect when I drive uphill with this tractor, it loses some of that head pressure and loses a bit of power/idles lower, and will even stall out depending on how steep the grade is and how much fuel is in the tank.

I just put an in-line fuel pump after the existing filter (see above post). There was no need to modify anything else. Hopefully that fixes it. This tractor is very thrifty on fuel, so it'll take some time to drain enough fuel out to really notice a difference. I will report back if it doesn't.



boatmoter said:


> also,going on that steep hill, if the fuel is relocated so it does not get picked up, do you think the oil in the oil pan will also be away from the pickup to lube the engine?


I doubt it. This engine has a very deep oil pan and the angle isn't that steep on the hill I had the problem on, but I'll keep an eye on it now that you mention it.


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## RandR10 (Sep 2, 2016)

Hacke said:


> John W Baron's text is mainly a copy from this site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's possible. A lot of air did come out of the lines, but then again I had them disconnected. 🤔


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Great, you will be happy now, this mod should see your problem finished with.

I have a small mechanical lift pump on my Kubota B2400, and I can assure you, when that dies, I will get a clickety clack pump because a genuine would most likely cover about 10 of those electrics.


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