# Turbo eating belts



## allen townsend

I have a Simplicity 18hp Conquest with a 44"deck. It has a turbo blower and "cart" grass catcher. The belt on the turbo recently jumps off of the impeller pulley, jams, and is chewed up. 

I just got a new shed for tractor storage and adjusted the deck to be able to raise it higher and not hit the threshold. I did bump the threshold with the deck several times before I got the deck to clear the threshold. This problem started just after this. I did have a tension adjustment problem resulting from wear. I believe I fixed it, but it still eats belts. I have now gone through three belts in a week thinking that I found the problem and fixed it only to find that it still eats belts. The belt seems to run ok without load on the blades. When lowered, the belt will sometimes jump immediately or after only a few minutes. I am using the correct simplicity belt. I believe I have the simplicity spring, I purchased it from a Simplicity dealer a few years back, but I am not sure how to verify that. I have looked at the pulleys and they all feel tight, no wobble or perceptible play in the pulley mountings or bearing. With leaf pick up season fast approaching I am reluctant to take it to my dealer who says he will not be able to look at it for two weeks.

I could get a new turbo, but I would like to be able to understand what the likely cause is so that I could try to fix it, or at least know that I need a new one.

If you are familiar with this problem, please offer your thoughts and suggestions. 

Thank you,

Allen


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## sixbales

Howdy Allen, welcome to the tractor forum.

Can you increase the tension on the belt? I have a finish mower that jumped (expensive) belts, and they got damaged between pulleys. I made a new tension spring anchor stretching the tension spring about an inch+ more than original. This really helped my situation. 

Also, change your belt tensioning spring. The old spring may be fatigued or damaged.

Can you build a gentle ramp to get your tractor into the shed with the original setup?


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## allen townsend

Thank you for your thoughts.

I have tried increasing the spring tension and that did not help. That was belt #2 that was shredded.

I did build a more gentle ramp to get in the shed. I am having difficulty associating lifting the deck with changes in the turbo which hangs on the deck. It moves together with the deck so it remains in the same place relative to the deck. The changes that I made lift the deck higher in the raised position which is in general a better plan.

I took the turbo off and am inspecting it now. It appears to me that the pulley on the impeller (where the belt jumps off) is not coplanar with the other pulleys. there is a twist in the plane of the belt. It appears to be by design because nothing is loose. 

One other thing that I did when I replaced one of the belts was move the belt keeper on the impeller pulley to be as close to the pulley as possible. I would think that this would be better, but previously it was "in front" of the pulley as the belt travels onto the pulley. I may try it in the original position, but I am on my last belt until probably Friday.

I will attach some photos. I do not know how to attach it to this comment but i find them under the Media tab.

At this time, I have reassembled everything and the turbo runs when I engage the blades on the driveway (no load) I will try it under load later. 

Thanks for your interest and comment.

Allen


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## Hacke

I have found it helpful to use a bent pipe, about 90 degrees, suitable lengths of "legs". You put the pipe in one pulleys groove, with the pulley in the inner "corner" of the pipe. The pipe will make contact at two points in the groove. You place one leg in the groove on another pulley. If the grooves are in line, the pipe will fit at all three points. If you turn one pulley, the pipe should stay in the groove at all three points, when the pulleys are coplanar.


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## allen townsend

Hacke said:


> I have found it helpful to use a bent pipe, about 90 degrees, suitable lengths of "legs". You put the pipe in one pulleys groove, with the pulley in the inner "corner" of the pipe. The pipe will make contact at two points in the groove. You place one leg in the groove on another pulley. If the grooves are in line, the pipe will fit at all three points. If you turn one pulley, the pipe should stay in the groove at all three points, when the pulleys are coplanar.


Did you see the picture that I posted on the media tab? The one which is titled 'belt on impeller pulley' shows that the impeller pulley is not coplanar with the others. I see no way to adjust this. All the pulleys seem to be fixed except the "floating" idler which is large and spring loaded. It appears to be coplanar with the two pulleys on the mower deck, but the impeller pulley is tilted relative to the others. The belt rides on the back of this idler just before it enters the impeller pulley.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Allen


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## allen townsend

I tried mowing the lawn again. The belt came off of the impeller pulley after I had mowed about 75 feet. The cover on the belt was partly torn, but I stopped the blades before it was shredded. I will try it again with more tension later. 

There does not seem to be any adjustments that I can make other than the tension. The tension is not a normal adjustment, but I can move the bracket that holds one end of the tensioning spring to stretch the spring more. 

I have used this turbo for 15 years with only occasional problems with the belt. I had found one at my local Automobile supply store that worked well and I have been using that.

Several years ago, I purchased a group of 4 belts on eBay. They were unused and marked with the Simplicity name and correct part number. It is this group of belts that I have now shredded. Perhaps they were old and stretched out quickly. I have new ones on order that should be here later this week.


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## willy81

Does the belt fit in the pulleys? The; belt should fit inside the edge of
the pulley, I lost a couple of belts because the belts were too wide
and did not fit down in the grove of the pulley


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## allen townsend

Yes, the belt fits in the pulleys. It is the correct belt. It is marked with the correct part number. I just received two new "replacement" belts. They fit as well. They are marked with the size 3/8 x 38. I tried one of these for about 1 minute without load on the cutter blades and it ran fine. I will test it on the lawn when the rain clears and the lawn dries.

Thank you for your suggestion.


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## BigT

That's a serious belt misalignment. Your deck must be bent?? Can you put spacers (washers) under the pulley base to get it closer to true?

I would also check the turbo for bearing glitches/roughness,


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## Bob Driver

_"I did bump the threshold with the deck several times before I got the deck to clear the threshold"
_
Wife told me once time she had "Bumped" something with the truck. Took 2 hours, a rosebud on a torch, and a 12lbs sledge hammer to fix that "bump"

Something got bent on the deck, or the turbo mounts to throw the pulleys out of alignment that much.


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## Hacke

BigT said:


> That's a serious belt misalignment. Your deck must be bent?? Can you put spacers (washers) under the pulley base to get it closer to true?
> 
> I would also check the turbo for bearing glitches/roughness,


You can not adjust the pulley like that, the impeller is "fixed" in a bearing in the cover. On the other hand, if it had a free end, the impeller would be grinding the plate or cover if you adjust the angle.
Same thing with the pulley bearing, the impeller would grind if the bearing made that angle.


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## Hacke

Looking at some diagrams, which I think are the correct ones for this machine, you see mounting brackets. Not sure how the turbo body is mounted, but if you loosen, not remove, all the bolts and nuts that is on the brackets, and the one (#5, 1694304 and 1693869) that holds the "lip" on the plate (#14, 1694304 and 1693869), you should be able to wiggle the whole contraption so the pulleys are in line. Then, check if it is possible to tighten the fasteners to keep it in this position. If not, some bracket may need attention. The lip on the plate may have been bent, so leave that to last when you tighten the fasteners. If there is a gap there, the lip is bent. Better to shim it than take everything apart to bend it. If you try to bend it, it will be difficult to know how much when everything is apart.

https://www.partstree.com/models/16...50-mower/turbo-blower-group-38-44-50-mower-0/
https://www.partstree.com/models/16...-38-44-50-mounting-kits/turbo-blower-group-0/
https://www.partstree.com/models/16...g-kit-for-44-50-mower/turbo-mounting-group-0/
https://www.partstree.com/models/16...44-50-mower/turbo-mounting-kit-44-50-mower-0/


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## Bob Driver

You can sit at a computer keyboard and analysis the crap out of the problem, but my bet is that in the end it will be rectified with a BFH applied to something that was bent on the deck when he _"bumped the threshold with the deck several times"_

I'd start looking for the victim of a sound beating with something that is flexing when the deck is under a load.... 
_
"I tried one of these for about 1 minute *without load* on the cutter blades and it ran fine"_


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## Hacke

Bob Driver said:


> You can sit at a computer keyboard and analysis the crap out of the problem, but my bet is that in the end it will be rectified with a BFH applied to something that was bent on the deck when he _"bumped the threshold with the deck several times"_
> 
> I'd start looking for the victim of a sound beating with something that is flexing when the deck is under a load....
> _
> "I tried one of these for about 1 minute *without load* on the cutter blades and it ran fine"_


Well, allen townsend asked for thoughts and suggestions and that is what I tried to give.
This is an Internet forum, which, by necessity, means that I need to use a computer to be able to communicate. Of course, the best way to help would be to personally visit the persons that have a question, but that is not possible. At least not for me.


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## allen townsend

BigT said:


> That's a serious belt misalignment. Your deck must be bent?? Can you put spacers (washers) under the pulley base to get it closer to true?
> 
> I would also check the turbo for bearing glitches/roughness,


First of all, thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions.

I just found a video on YouTube which looks like it should help. The link to the video is 



 The narrative mentions that he _upgraded_ his turbo (which looks just like mine) with a belt and pulley upgrade kit. Before the "_upgrade_", belts kept coming off and needing replacement. After the upgrade he does not seem to have that problem. He describes the _upgrade_ as replacing two of the pulleys with deeper v pulleys (one of the pulleys replaced is the impeller pulley in the picture above and the one that the belt keeps jumping off of) and a heavier cogged belt. In the descriptions someone posted the link to the part number for this _"upgrade"_ For the 44" deck that I have, the part number is #1687416yp. *Does anyone have any experience with this "upgrade"? * It sounds to me like Simplicity came out with a "fix" to my problem.

From the comments he got on his YouTube video, it is clear that I am not the only one with this problem.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.


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## Bob Driver

Hacke said:


> Well, allen townsend asked for thoughts and suggestions and that is what I tried to give.
> This is an Internet forum, which, by necessity, means that I need to use a computer to be able to communicate. Of course, the best way to help would be to personally visit the persons that have a question, but that is not possible. At least not for me.


Sorry Hacke.... Statement wasn't direct at you personally. I was just noticing that this thread is already bogging down with "analysis paralysis". It's easy to drift down that path on an internet forum. Lot's of keyboard mechanics out there that have never actually turned wrenches for living

Banged the deck several times on the threshold pulling into a shed. Now the pulleys don't line up and it's pitching belts. 3 C's.... Complaint, Cause, Correction

As a guy that has turned wrenches for way to long, I was just trying to point out that my money is still on the quickest solution can be achieved with a BFH. That line of thinking comes from way to many years of watching shift work orders pile up on the write-up desk, while a supposed to be professional mechanic was bogged down with over thinking a problem. Nobody is on the clock getting paid and blowing the hell out of shift production time, or billing hours to a customer on this job, so carry on and ignore me.


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## Hacke

Bob Driver said:


> Sorry Hacke.... Statement wasn't direct at you personally. I was just noticing that this thread is already bogging down with "analysis paralysis". It's easy to drift down that path on an internet forum. Lot's of keyboard mechanics out there that have never actually turned wrenches for a living
> 
> Banged the deck several times.... Now the pulleys don't line up and it's pitching belts. Cause and effect??
> 
> As a guy that has turned wrenches for way to long, I was just trying to point out that my money is still on the quickest solution can be achieved with a BFH. That line of thinking comes from way to many years of watching shift work orders pile up on the write-up desk, while somebody was bogged down with over thinking a problem. Nobody is on the clock getting paid, or billing hours to a customer on this job, so carry on and ignore me.


Yes, but you need to know were to apply the violence, and how much. Otherwise it is easy to make the problem worse.


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## Hacke

allen townsend said:


> First of all, thanks for all of your thoughts and suggestions.
> 
> I just found a video on YouTube which looks like it should help. The link to the video is
> 
> 
> 
> The narrative mentions that he _upgraded_ his turbo (which looks just like mine) with a belt and pulley upgrade kit. Before the "_upgrade_", belts kept coming off and needing replacement. After the upgrade he does not seem to have that problem. He describes the _upgrade_ as replacing two of the pulleys with deeper v pulleys (one of the pulleys replaced is the impeller pulley in the picture above and the one that the belt keeps jumping off of) and a heavier cogged belt. In the descriptions someone posted the link to the part number for this _"upgrade"_ For the 44" deck that I have, the part number is #1687416yp. *Does anyone have any experience with this "upgrade"? * It sounds to me like Simplicity came out with a "fix" to my problem.
> 
> From the comments he got on his YouTube video, it is clear that I am not the only one with this problem.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.


You do as you like, I would try to solve the alignment problem first. No matter what pulleys or belts you use, they need to be in line.


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## Bob Driver

Hacke said:


> Yes, but you need to know were to apply the violence, and how much. Otherwise it is easy to make the problem worse.


That's where the thinking needs to start tapering off and the skill/experience of being a professional mechanic needs to come into play. That's where you justify earning the big bucks. 

Reminds me of one of my favorite old timers I had as a Foreman coming up. If you went to him and said "The pulleys don't line up and it's pitchin' belts. His answer would have been....

"Well it ain't supposed to do that, how bad you reckon I'm gonna get screwed by paying you by the hour to figure it out?"


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## willy81

can you get a small than 3/8? if you can I would try that before the 
upgrade cheaper


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## allen townsend

I tried the new belt today and mowed about 1/2 acre without a problem. The new belt is a "replacement" belt and the same size as the original equipment but with a stronger, Kevlar, cover.

A smaller size belt of the same length sounds like a good idea as well.

Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## willy81

The posts that hold the belt on the pulley if its not real close to the 
pulley the belt can come off and your belt looks like spaghetti
I check to see if the belt fits in the grove of the pulley by placing 
something flat against the pulley to see if belt has a space between
the flat piece that I placed on the pulley and the belt 
hope this is some help


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## allen townsend

Good thought. After mounting the belt, I have now made sure that the post is as close to the pulley as possible . _It was not that way earlier._ The post is on the side of the fan pulley that is being pulled by the belt. It shows no sign of wear. The tensioning idler pulley is on the feed side of the fan pulley. I expect this is the side of the pulley where the belt jumps off.

So far it has been working fine with the new belt. It will take awhile before I am confident in it staying on.

Thanks for your comment.


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## allen townsend

I took off the turbo again to look for a problem. I found that the idler tensioning pulley was not symmetrical. I added two pictures in the media section. One side had about 1/4" lip around the outside and the other almost no lip at all. The drawings for this pulley show that both sides should have a lip. The side without the lip looks polished, like that is where the belt has been riding, whereas the side that still had a 1/4" lip looked like it was not being used. I flipped the pulley over so the 1/4" lip is on the other side in the assembly. Now the belt is riding against the 1/4" lip. This pulley is mounted at a slight angle (to help with the required twist) and I expect the belt wore off the lip and has been slipping off the tensioning pulley I have used it for about an hour now and it seems to be working fine. It is hard to be certain, but this looks like a reasonable cause for the belt failures. 
Thanks again for all of your thoughts and suggestions.


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## Bill F

That is not misaligned. That's how it's built. Late to the party, but this thing is kicking my ass.

I'm not losing belts. My belt is somehow making it off the tensioning pulley.

I'm mystified HOW.

It seems to occur when I'm driving the mower and the mower decks hit a root hard enough to feel and hear a bang.
Belts on the mower and deck are still moving, but the tension is off,

Somehow, during that impact, the belt makes it past the 'finger' and over the top of the pulley.

I can pull the tensioner arm back, but there is no way I can squeeze the belt through that opening.

FWIW, I installed the new upgrade and it was working great. I got about 1/3 of an acre done, with much improved feeds and speeds than the original design.

Then I hit the bleeping root.

How can the belt do that? How can I return it to its proper location? Besides not hitting the root, how do I prevent it from happening again?






BigT said:


> That's a serious belt misalignment. Your deck must be bent?? Can you put spacers (washers) under the pulley base to get it closer to true?
> 
> I would also check the turbo for bearing glitches/roughness,


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