# Landlord 3310 - Adjusting the PTO Belt



## boilermanc

HI all, fairly new owner of a Landlord 3310. The PTO belt broke, I replaced and did what I can to adjust the tension. Trying to understand how tight is too tight? The result now is the blades turn but really don't spin fast and they bog down in heavy grass to the point they pretty much stop. I just feel that belt is not right. Any hints, suggestions on getting that belt right? 

thanks!


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## skunkhome

I suppose you are talking about the belt that runs from the PTO to the mower. The driven pulley on the 3300 series PTO is a double pulley with a large and small sheave. The belt should be running on the larger of the two for the rotary mower. The small sheave is for the sickle bar mower. Also make sure you have reapplied tension on the belt by pulling lever to rear under left rear axle. Those are the only adjustments. if it is the belt running from the BGB to the pto swing arm that has to be the right size.
That belt is Simplicity# 172066 (1/2x29")


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## boilermanc

skunkhome said:


> I suppose you are talking about the belt that runs from the PTO to the mower. The driven pulley on the 3300 series PTO is a double pulley with a large and small sheave. The belt should be running on the larger of the two for the rotary mower. The small sheave is for the sickle bar mower. Also make sure you have reapplied tension on the belt by pulling lever to rear under left rear axle. Those are the only adjustments. if it is the belt running from the BGB to the pto swing arm that has to be the right size.
> That belt is Simplicity# 172066 (1/2x29")


Thanks skunkhome. I have to get back under there and see what I can see. I did pull the lever in the back so I know that is good. But I must have the pully's messed up or something even though I didn't change them after the belt broke. I did order that belt you quoted but it was too long. I went to TS and got a collection. I think I ended up with one that was 28" so I guess that would lead me to think that I have something wrong as its still loose but not loose enough for a 27" belt. I will keep you posted on what I see! Thanks!


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## boilermanc

This is what the belt setup looks like. I worked on it some yesterday. This is a 27" belt! I have the lever down in the back and have tried to set that pulley as tight as I can using the slide pin on the pto lever. This is in the engaged position. You can see that the belt looks loose and I can push it with my finger very easily and make them touch. A 26" will not fit on the pullies and as stated its supposed to take a 29" belt. Confused...


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## skunkhome

Something does not look right about that. The belt is running extremely deep in those sheaves. And the pto shaft is a lot longer than the original. I'm thinking that is a BGB out of a later RBT and they changed the top pulley to match the thicker shaft. What is the width of the belt you are running?


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## boilermanc

It's 1/2" x 27"


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## GTcollector

skunkhome said:


> Something does not look right about that. The belt is running extremely deep in those sheaves. And the pto shaft is a lot longer than the original. I'm thinking that is a BGB out of a later RBT and they changed the top pulley to match the thicker shaft. What is the width of the belt you are running?


correctamondo Phil the BGB is probably from a 700/7000 series, the ring on the shaft is where the spring went, the nut is a dead give away


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## skunkhome

I'm back to the sheaves then. If the belt is the right width it should be riding much higher in those sheaves. Is the bottom of the "v" in those sheaves shiny as if the belt has been running in the bottoms?


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## GTcollector

skunkhome said:


> I'm back to the sheaves then. If the belt is the right width it should be riding much higher in those sheaves. Is the bottom of the "v" in those sheaves shiny as if the belt has been running in the bottoms?


It might be a tiller sheave which was made for a 5/8" belt, replacing it with a 1/2" sheave might solve the problem


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## skunkhome

I'm thinking that we need some input from another 3300 series owner because the original pulley #172065 is unique to the 3300 series. We need measurements on the diameter and width of the pulley to determine if what you have is correct for the tractor. The id of the pulley will have to be determined by your BGB shaft. It is obviously a mix and match setup. There is nothing at all wrong with that as long as it is done right.


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## GTcollector

Here's the picture of the 3310 PTO. I think it's safe to say the pulley you have is A) to big or B) made for 5/8" belt. Like Phil said, it is possible that the BGB was switched out causing the issue, solving the problem, as you have found out, is not so clear cut as what the problem maybe. You could buy another BGB for a 3310, that would be the safest and surest fix. Alternately, you could try and find the right size sheave and hope that works.


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## skunkhome

Well, unfortunately there is not enough traffic here to find someone with a 3300 series. That was a one year tractor and there just aren't that many out there. Get those dimensions from someone at Michael's Tractors, SimpleTrACtors, GTT or MyTractorForum. Then go to Phoenix pulleys http://shop.phoenix-mfg.com and get the pulleys you need. Cast iron pulleys are nice but most of the earlier tractors had stamped steel pulleys on the pto side of the BGB. It will be much cheaper than a new BGB.


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## boilermanc

wow, guys, thanks so much! few newbie questions...

what does bgb stand for? and what is rbt? 

i will call today and see what i can find on the pully. question though, if i replace it with a smaller pully wont it still be the wrong size? would it not take even a smaller belt? let me see what i can find out. 

so glad you guys know this!


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## skunkhome

I'm so sorry, I forget sometimes that I'm May be talking to someone who isn't as obsessed as I. 

We, Simplicity guys, throw those terms around without thinking. I'm died in the wool old Simplicity and know little beyond that while people like GTcollector are broad base. He starts talking about any of his other brands and it's like Greek to me. We all have our areas that we are ignorant in so questions are welcome. 


In Simplcity talk
BGB means "bevel gear box" 
The BGB is common to all large frame Simplicities in some form or other. Your tractor was a transitional tractor for Simplicity. The tractor looks most like all tractors through the end of the line but normally shares the BGB with earlier Tractors (the FDT's)
. 

FDT means "foot Dragging tractor" 
that is all the large frame tractors in the Simplicity line prior to your 3310 that had foot pegs , hence "foot dragging"


RBT means "running board tractor". 
The 3300 series is the first large frame tractor they built with running boards


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## GTcollector

skunkhome said:


> I'm so sorry, I forget sometimes that I'm May be talking to someone who isn't as obsessed as I.
> 
> We, Simplicity guys, throw those terms around without thinking. I'm died in the wool old Simplicity and know little beyond that while people like GTcollector are broad base. He starts talking about any of his other brands and it's like Greek to me. We all have our areas that we are ignorant in so questions are welcome.
> 
> BGB means "bevel gear box "


...and RBT means "running board tractor" later model tractors with foot treads opposed to FDT or " foot dragging tractor", which only had pegs for for foot rest. Phil's spot on, GTTalk or Michael's Tractor are your best bets to find a 3300 owner, you will have to sign up to both sites in order to post. My only concern about trying to replace the pulley is that I have serious concerns if that pulley is going to come off, it maybe why it's still there in the first place. You might see if you can remove it first, then see which direction you go. A pulley will set you back maybe 12-20 dollars at Grainger, while a used bevel gear box will go from 150-200, maybe more on the 3300, IF you can locate one, and it may need to be rebuilt as well. I talk about this predicament as one of the biggest concerns for the GT collecting hobby, I wonder how long people will fool with these machines while their grass grows long, their wives ride there backsides, and their time is consumed by mechanical problems that aren't cost effective to repair. Good Luck


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## boilermanc

ahh that helps! yeah, new to simplicity. not afraid to take i on though, my other hobby is restoring a 69 ih scout. i'll see what i can do on the pulley. dont like the idea of rebuilding a box. do you not think there is a way to get it setup the way it is now to run the blade? it was running when i got it. the belt broke and it was old and worn so was thinking just replacing it should work. 

and yes, my grass is getting longer!


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## skunkhome

Maybe a 5/8"x29" belt since the most obvious issue seems to be the width of the pulleys not the diameter. I think regardless the diameter of the top and bottom pulleys should be roughly the same to maintain a 1:1 ratio. Do you have the shield/stop that goes over the top pulley? If not you may find operation troublesome without it. Btw you could cut off the shaft at the ring since it serves no purpose on your tractor.


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## GTcollector

skunkhome said:


> Maybe a 5/8"x29" belt since the most obvious issue seems to be the width of the pulleys not the diameter. I think regardless the diameter of the top and bottom pulleys should be roughly the same to maintain a 1:1 ratio. Do you have the shield/stop that goes over the top pulley? If not you may find operation troublesome without it. Btw you could cut off the shaft at the ring since it serves no purpose on your tractor.


Never thought of cutting off the shaft, but that is a great idea that would solve at least one problem, getting the pulley passed the ring. So many people have no clue as to what great lengths these engineers and designers put into these old machines, and so many have ideas on how to repair or alter them, some like Phil are very helpful, but for some it doesn't always turn out so well. I guess were like doctors, were practicing garden tractor repair.


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## boilermanc

skunkhome said:


> Maybe a 5/8"x29" belt since the most obvious issue seems to be the width of the pulleys not the diameter. I think regardless the diameter of the top and bottom pulleys should be roughly the same to maintain a 1:1 ratio. Do you have the shield/stop that goes over the top pulley? If not you may find operation troublesome without it. Btw you could cut off the shaft at the ring since it serves no purpose on your tractor.


I dont have the shield. Think those can be found? I try the part number and see what I find. 

As for the "ring" can you be more specific? Would not want to cut at the wrong place!

I can try the larger belt. Probably have to order it. Tractor supply has a good selection but i think their larger belts are all too long.

thanks!


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## GTcollector

I think this is the guard.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/11016-Allis...231?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a419eeaa7


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## GTcollector

boilermanc said:


> I dont have the shield. Think those can be found? I try the part number and see what I find.
> 
> As for the "ring" can you be more specific? Would not want to cut at the wrong place!
> 
> I can try the larger belt. Probably have to order it. Tractor supply has a good selection but i think their larger belts are all too long.
> 
> thanks!


There is a ring around the long shaft coming out whether rr not it can be removed is hard to say, if it can't I would cut the shaft of behind the ring


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## boilermanc

GTcollector said:


> I think this is the guard.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/11016-Allis...231?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a419eeaa7


Awesome, looks like it. I went ahead and grabbed it!

thanks!


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## skunkhome

Rather than just hacking it off You can cut the shaft nice and clean but cranking the engine and holding a hacksaw on the shaft and run it back and forth as the shaft rotates away from you. Essentially the tractor becomes it's own lathe. (turn the saw blade around with the teeth cutting on the draw to prevent saw from kicking back on you). Cut will be very straight and professional looking.


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## GTcollector

boilermanc said:


> Awesome, looks like it. I went ahead and grabbed it!
> 
> thanks!


If you try and install it and it won't go over the pulley you will know where your problem is. Good Luck
BTW, part numbers aren't always very useful on ebay, seller doesn't always have them right or manufacturer has more than one part number for the same part. I usually cross reference the part number listed with the one I have to determine a good cross reference.


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## boilermanc

GTcollector said:


> If you try and install it and it won't go over the pulley you will know where your problem is. Good Luck
> BTW, part numbers aren't always very useful on ebay, seller doesn't always have them right or manufacturer has more than one part number for the same part. I usually cross reference the part number listed with the one I have to determine a good cross reference.


lol, yup, i am putting together a good inventory of parts that didn't fit the Scout either! Cross we bear!


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## GTcollector

boilermanc said:


> lol, yup, i am putting together a good inventory of parts that didn't fit the Scout either! Cross we bear!


Your first picture showed the belt inside the idler, I believe it goes on the outside


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## boilermanc

GTcollector said:


> Your first picture showed the belt inside the idler, I believe it goes on the outside


Hey GT, that would interesting. So I wonder which way the PTO lever is supposed to engage? The way I was engaging it was to pull that idler toward the back of the tractor to take up the slack. I am wondering now if it is to push the idler toward the front and push the belt out? That may just be it. I was just going off of the same picture you posted of the parts where it looks like the belt dips in. I will have to give that a shot!


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## GTcollector

boilermanc said:


> Hey GT, that would interesting. So I wonder which way the PTO lever is supposed to engage? The way I was engaging it was to pull that idler toward the back of the tractor to take up the slack. I am wondering now if it is to push the idler toward the front and push the belt out? That may just be it. I was just going off of the same picture you posted of the parts where it looks like the belt dips in. I will have to give that a shot!


Yeah, I'm not real sure, but two pictures guys posted show the belt on the outside, thought it might be worth a shot.


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## boilermanc

boilermanc said:


> Hey GT, that would interesting. So I wonder which way the PTO lever is supposed to engage? The way I was engaging it was to pull that idler toward the back of the tractor to take up the slack. I am wondering now if it is to push the idler toward the front and push the belt out? That may just be it. I was just going off of the same picture you posted of the parts where it looks like the belt dips in. I will have to give that a shot!


I also have a manual for the 350 and 351 where the PTO setup looks exactly the same. Here is the picture I was going by. But as I read the directions as you see in the second the picture it seems backwards. If you push the clutch lever forward the idler moves to the back of the tractor. If you pull it back it moves the idler to the front so based on the drawing you would lose tension. I am wrong or have I not had enough coffee today?


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## skunkhome

The idler is supposed to compress the belt. The idler pulley is a flat idler designed to ride on the back side of the belt. Info for the earlier FDT's is not applicable to the 3300 series pto. 

Did you get the PM with the link I sent you?


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## boilermanc

skunkhome said:


> The idler is supposed to compress the belt. The idler pulley is a flat idler designed to ride on the back side of the belt. Info for the earlier FDT's is not applicable to the 3300 series pto.
> 
> Did you get the PM with the link I sent you?


yeah, thats what i thought. didn't get your message unless you go by Austin too?


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## GTcollector

That pictures seems to show a slightly smaller top pulley, if you can trust pictures, lol


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## boilermanc

I had a quick chance this morning to try the belt on the outside of the idler. 29" fit like a champ so thinking that must be it. I tried to put tension with the idler by pulling the clutch lever to the back which pushes the idler to the front which should put tension. Can't seem to get it very tight. I messed with the little bolt that holds that spring and push rod on the lever but never could figure out the right position. 

Anyone have any suggestions? Ideas on how tight that belt needs to be? Seems like it needs to be pretty snug. I did not start it up but will in a bit.


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## skunkhome

boilermanc said:


> I tried to put tension with the idler by pulling the clutch lever to the back which pushes the idler to the front which should put tension. Can't seem to get it very tight.


According to the owners manual pulling the PTO lever to the rear disengages the clutch. 
Your idler pulley looks like it has a flat spool. Is it flat or a "v"?

If it is flat it's supposed run on the top of the belt...if "v" it's supposed to run on the bottom of the belt. Of course it could be the wrong idler pulley. Just about anything can happen in 43 years.


http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/heCyEN8arH6rE3CG.5kbp796Dq.pdf
Check out page 21 for adjustments. 










If you run the part number for the idler 164268 it indicated that it is a flat idler. 

http://www.amazon.com/Stens-CHALMERS-SIMPLICITY-1685144SM-43-1040ALLIS/dp/images/B00CNVFF22


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## boilermanc

Yes it is a flat idler. So back to square one. I tried to cut with it outside but it did not cut very well. And to make the lever work by moving it to the front of the tractor would mean that the belt needs to go between the pulley's like I have it but thats not seeming to work. So thoughts welcome on where to proceed from here. Sorry if I missed a suggestion that I should be doing.


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## skunkhome

Did you make the adjustments listed on page 21 of the manual? Did you try a 5/8" belt? Width of those pulleys seems to be an issue


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## boilermanc

I'm going to try to pick up a 4.5" pulley and replace that top pulley. Also make it a 1/2" sheave and see if that will take up the slack for me. Might be a few weeks trying to make that happen...


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## boilermanc

Ahh success! I ordered the 4.5 pulley and it worked! I also picked up that belt shield and it fit! Wow, it's coming together! 

New problem though, when testing it tonight I lost the key for the pulley! I knew I should have loctite'd the screw for it. Where can I get a new key? Would Lowe's have something like that? 

Thanks to everyone who helped with this! Hopefully this helps someone in the future...


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## skunkhome

Did you cut off the shaft even with the pulley? If so you have eliminated the ability to power a tiller.


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## boilermanc

no, did not cut it off. did not seem necessary and just some additional work.

a tiller would be nice! are they hard to find?


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## jhngardner367

You should be able to find the key at Lowe's,or some key stock. All you have to know is the size, and cut it to length .


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## Nickwelder

An old flat file of the right thickness can be used to make a key.

I don't know what level of engineering you're at so forgive me if you already know this stuff 

Get the end red hot and stick it in sand to slowly cool. This anneals the steel and makes it workable.

Cut off the required amount with a hacksaw.

Grind it down until it is a tight fit.

Re harden and temper to suit. 

Which is ' get cherry red and quench in oil' to harden. 

Clean the surface so that colour change can be observed. 

Temper to a 'light straw/straw' colour.

This can all be done with a standard blowlamp.

Alternatively; the tang of the file is probably the right temper and can be cut straight away if it will fit.

Keep the old stuff working,


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## jhngardner367

Whether it is a half-moon key,or straight stock,they can be found at Lowes,or Home Depot,or even Harbor Freight, so making one would be a waste of time and effort.


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## Nickwelder

Ah!! The American Dream. Everything on your doorstep.

Try living with British standard sizes, replaced with American standards, and then superseded with metric. All within a few years.

I forget that some parts of the world can shop their way out of trouble.

The ability to Make your own stuff to keep older items running becomes essential to some of us. 
Others of us just like to make our own bits anyway. You can't beat a freebee 

Sorry to have annoyed you


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## GTcollector

Nickwelder said:


> Ah!! The American Dream. Everything on your doorstep.
> 
> Try living with British standard sizes, replaced with American standards, and then superseded with metric. All within a few years.
> 
> I forget that some parts of the world can shop their way out of trouble.
> 
> The ability to Make your own stuff to keep older items running becomes essential to some of us.
> Others of us just like to make our own bits anyway. You can't beat a freebee
> 
> Sorry to have annoyed you


Nick, I cant speak for the man, but I doubt you annoyed him. Your attitude is commendable, and I like your ingenuity, but with the metal that today's files are made of, the key might not last long, furthermore, it might not last that long with a new store bought key either, one can only hope. It's so sad that 20 years ago we were repairing stuff with old scrap that was ten times better material than one can buy now. I'm not sure that in the case of a key that it shouldn't be hardened by hand or bought that way, still it might not last that long. Whenever I see good old tools, or scrap stock metal, I latch on to them. I have a 12" piece of key my dad bought in 1967, I think it started as a two foot piece. However, your premise was a good one, and with the right old scrap file or metal, a great suggestion


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## jhngardner367

Sorry,Nick,
Didn't mean to be condescending. I keep forgetting that we are an international family,here,since we all speak "tractor" !
Actually,I,too often make my own keys,small parts,etc.( if you ever looked in the back of my pick up truck ,it would scare you! LOL!) rather than run to the local store.
I guess that's what makes us all love these things so.


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## skunkhome

I don't know where on the hardiness scale a file falls in comparison to the typical key but I do know that a file fractures a lot easier than does a key that seems to be able to take a shock load a lot better even though it is easily cut by a flat file.


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## boilermanc

Well thanks all. I grabbed a couple at ACE that I am going to give a try to. Really bummed I lost the original. Maybe I will "step" on it one day in the yard! Will let you all know when I have it successfully in. Might be a few days with my schedule. I at least got the tractor back in the garage where I can put a good wrench to it when I get a chance... baby steps sometimes...


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## jhngardner367

Files are pretty brittle,UNTIL they are heated . Best knife I ever had was made from a file !


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