# PTO driven stand-by generator



## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

Hi, new here. Dairy goat farmer in Barbados just hit by Hurricane Elsa. Question: I am depending on an old tractor-driven generator for farm power. To get the right voltage I have to keep the tractor revs fairly high. Not too good for the tractor (I think) and uses lots of fuel. Could a speed reduction/increasing gearbox be used to get the right generator speed at lower tractor revs?
Thanks


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Entirely depends on your tractor PTO horsepower.


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## BigT (Sep 15, 2014)

If your tractor can turn the generator at lower PTO rpm (with speed reduction/increasing gearbox). Horsepower rating goes down with reduced engine rpm. So, you will be working your tractor engine harder at reduced rpm to produce the same amount electrical power. This is a good thought.... What size generator (KW) do you have and what HP tractor? 

The rule-of-thumb is 2 HP per KW generated. 

I recently ran my 13KW PTO generator for 2 days straight (24 hrs/day) at 540 rpm PTO speed with a 50HP tractor. I agree, it sure does burn a lot of fuel.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Keep in mind that almost every pto driven genny relies on a pre determined pto rpm to deliver the correct cycles per second required to maintain electrical equipment. reducing the input rpm reduces not only the output wattage but the hertz as well.

The exception to that is an auxiliary generator that is electronically excited to produce the required hertz and I've never seen one, at least a non commercial one and... Inverter Generators are all dc windings and converted to ac by the electronics.

Not a math whiz but there is a set formula that determines output versus input power minus parasitic loss.

If you apply a gearbox that reduces the input pto rpm to prolong the tractor life (and reduce fuel consumption), you also reduce the output of the generator head. They have to turn at (usually 3600 rpm for a 2 pole head or 1800 rpm for a 4 pole head). 4 pole heads are usually used in standby diesel power because a diesel is usually rated at 1800, not 3600 like a gas motor.

My JD diesel powered standby (25KW) is a 4 pole head turning a governed (electronically) 1800.

The exception is an Inverter. They can turn at any rpm that excites the windings. Have one of those as well for use in the RV but the output is nowhere near enough to power the farm.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Yes a gearbox could help as long as you have sufficient horsepower available at the lower rpms.
When I run my 25KW with the Branson 8050 I use the 540 Economy setting which gives me 540 pto rpm at around 1750 engine rpm
compared to the regular 540 which puts out 540 pto rpm around 2400 engine rpm.
My Ih 574 can easily run the generator on the 540 shaft but put it on the 1000 rpm output and throttle down to half throttle
and she has trouble staying stable with load changes. One time I had one of the CIH Magnums on the generator with the thousand rpm output at half throttle
and she had no issues with load changes.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Power is king Lou. Never saw the need for a pto genny myself especially since I have diesel standby.


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## BigT (Sep 15, 2014)

Lou, that's a nifty idea..... "My Ih 574 can easily run the generator on the 540 shaft but put it on the 1000 rpm output and throttle down to half throttle" 

Wish I had the 1000 rpm option.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Do keep in mind that any diesel engine, naturally aspirated or turbocharged has a defined power band (torque rise) so operating out of that band may cause issues one of which is not being able to assume a fluctuating load.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

Thanks all. It's a Froment Magnate (which apparently is no longer in production) 32 KVA, 540 rpm, which can run the whole farm. Got it free from a fellow who was going to dump it. Driving it with my old MF265 (my other tractor is a 1966 MF178). Maybe it's only wishful thinking since the speed reduction gearboxes I see seem mainly to convert from 540 rpm to 1000 and vice versa. I just wished to slow the engine a bit but get the same rpm on the generator. The trouble with buying a complete standby is that they cost a lot and in our area may sometimes be used only once or twice a year. Hurricane Elsa is the first major hurricane to hit us since 1955. Glad I dropped in here- learned a lot in a hurry.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

I've had my current 25KW pto generator for well over 20 years, prior to that I had a 9 KW for about 30 years.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

An old David Brown 995 or 1210 would have been ideal for your requirements, 1800rpm for 540 rpm at the pto, and at that rev range it was most economical fuel wise and also at the peak of the torque rating, a great work horse for its day.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

RH Bim said:


> Thanks all. It's a Froment Magnate (which apparently is no longer in production) 32 KVA, 540 rpm, which can run the whole farm. Got it free from a fellow who was going to dump it. Driving it with my old MF265 (my other tractor is a 1966 MF178). Maybe it's only wishful thinking since the speed reduction gearboxes I see seem mainly to convert from 540 rpm to 1000 and vice versa. I just wished to slow the engine a bit but get the same rpm on the generator. The trouble with buying a complete standby is that they cost a lot and in our area may sometimes be used only once or twice a year. Hurricane Elsa is the first major hurricane to hit us since 1955. Glad I dropped in here- learned a lot in a hurry.


Both of your MF tractors are high horse power. Yes, gear box reducer - increaser would work just fine. In fact there are tractors equipped with multi-speed PTO outputs. This is built into the tractor. Thus a gearbox externally would work the same way for your machines.

With a 24Hp PTO diesel tractor with a multi-speed PTO, it would turn a 10Kw generator in selector-3 near 1,400rpms burning nearly 8-gallons per day.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

bmaverick said:


> With a 24Hp PTO diesel tractor with a multi-speed PTO, it would turn a 10Kw generator in selector-3 near 1,400rpms burning nearly 8-gallons per day


I believe that would depend entirely on electrical load. 10KW isn't all that large and certainly not large enough to run an entire farm.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

LouNY said:


> I've had my current 25KW pto generator for well over 20 years, prior to that I had a 9 KW for about 30 years.


Mine is getting up in years as well. Has to be 15 years old at least, but other than normal maintenance, oil filters, air filters and oil changes, I really have not touched it at all. Mine has a 4 cylinder turbo charged JD engine which I assume is a Yanmar painted green. Get my consumables from the JD dealer up town and use the same oil my tractors do. All the electrical components and vacuum transfer switches are Generac and I had it professionally installed. I'm poor with electricity. Interestingly, after it was installed, the power rarely goes out.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

We have a Multiquip 3600 which will handle lights and some house appliances. We use it when not milking or cooling the milk. There's also the problem of different cycles: our mains electricity is 115 v, 50 cycle. The pto generator is 50 cycle but the Multiquip is 60. Appliances out of the USA are 60 Hz, those out of Europe are 50. We have a mixture and have to be careful not to use 50 Hz entities with the 60 Hz generator. Wish the world would decide one way or the other but doubt it will happen in my lifetime.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

RH Bim said:


> Wish the world would decide one way or the other but doubt it will happen in my lifetime.


Would be nice from a component standpoint. Only 10 CPS difference but 10 CPS can make a big difference in how equipment runs pls, you have strange (to me) outlets there...lol


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> I believe that would depend entirely on electrical load. 10KW isn't all that large and certainly not large enough to run an entire farm.


10Kw runs my farm operations just fine. Plus the solar and the battery storage banks. The 10Kw isn't just juicing and wasted, it's stored too. It's the smartest thing to do with generator power not going to waste.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Won't run mine but then I don't do solar either Not going to get into that so I'll leave it lie.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

RH Bim said:


> We have a mixture and have to be careful not to use 50 Hz entities with the 60 Hz generator. Wish the world would decide one way or the other but doubt it will happen in my lifetime.


With battery bank storage, the Hz issue becomes a none event. Are you able to make your own Edison batteries or able to afford Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) Batteries? 

It's not hard to make a LiFEPO4 battery charger. And the Renology Smart Charge Controllers are now under $55USD for up to 35Amps. They were so much higher cost in years past. They can charge standard, AGM, Deep Cycle and Lithium.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

Going through a rough time with the pto-driven generator. Used to handle everything just fine. We need to power the vacuum pump motor and pulsator unit, the milk transfer pump and the 100 gal milk cooler. Getting a serious voltage drop when the transfer pump cuts in, lights dimming down kinda scary. We have a line running from the generator to a transfer switch at the house and then a fairly long line to the farm and milking parlour. Not sure if there's a fault somewhere. Technician hoping to come tomorrow. Meanwhile half the milking parlour roof is gone and the tarpaulin we rigged up isn't enjoying the breeze. Could someone remind me why people go into dairy farming? Being doing it for the last 46 years, never a day off.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

RH Bim said:


> Going through a rough time with the pto-driven generator. Used to handle everything just fine. We need to power the vacuum pump motor and pulsator unit, the milk transfer pump and the 100 gal milk cooler. Getting a serious voltage drop when the transfer pump cuts in, lights dimming down kinda scary. We have a line running from the generator to a transfer switch at the house and then a fairly long line to the farm and milking parlour. Not sure if there's a fault somewhere. Technician hoping to come tomorrow. Meanwhile half the milking parlour roof is gone and the tarpaulin we rigged up isn't enjoying the breeze. Could someone remind me why people go into dairy farming? Being doing it for the last 46 years, never a day off.


WOW. 46 years. Our family is at 14 years with the dairy goat farm. You are 100% right, never a day off. 

Are your wire-lines on the ground or strung above the ground or 1/4 meter under ground? Due to hot heat, the wire-lines work best under ground. Are the wire-lines 12GA or 10GA? Are the lengths shorter than 31 meters? 

The Amish near us use an underground cellar some 5 meters under ground. Then at the bottom is a cold water tank. This really keeps the milk cold.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

Whew! 3:45 a.m. over here and we just got through milking, juggling devices to shift load. Now recall we've been getting some unhappy noises from the vacuum pump before the mains went out so there probably is a problem between the house and the farm. Wires are strung overhead, heavy 4-cable wire designed for outdoor use. Not sure of gauge. House to farm shed maybe 200 feet. Will check connections tomorrow. If I can't find the fault, will move the pto generator over to the farm to be close to the milking equipment. It's obviously much easier to find a complete break than a bad connection which only breaks down under load.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Boy am I glad I have meat cattle. We can actually leave for a few days and they survive just fine. Never wanted to be married to milk cows or anything close to that.... and by this fall I hope to have none. Already have plans to convert their grazing pastures to hay production. Gonna have a lot of pressure treated posts, stock tanks, feeders and tube gates to give away. Just getting too old to fiddle with them. I want to have them gone in time to spray the ground for broadleaf, chop it and overseed and fertilize it for next spring.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

Don't sing too loud yet! I'm also into hay selling in a small way. A few months ago the Soufriere volcano erupted in St Vincent, 100 miles west of us. Tons of ash covered our island, depositing a thick layer in every field. It isn't soluble, it's just like flint sand staying there. And it's like cutting through stone. You sharpen the mower blades and after two passes, they're completely blunted. I have to drive the MF 178 in 1st gear, low range, screaming in protest. Now have to find a source of Vicon mower blades. And the old MF120 baler which seldom misses a bale broke the spring ring (not sure if that's the right name) which holds one of the packer fork assemblies. None available in Barbados. Using a circlip but holding my breath. But I'm mixing up threads. Sorry! BTW, I'm 78; wife, daughter and self run the farm, milking, bottling, supermarket sales. 17 year old grandson lifts the bales, 9 year old drives the tractor. Feel I should be sitting in a rocker in the gallery strumming my banjo but family doesn't agree. However, there is good news - the day after the hurricane a grateful milk customer gave us a Lab Retriever puppy. And is she sweet!


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

AgriSuipply (www.agrisupply.com) will have your mower blades and they export as well. I never sharpen mine, just replace them. Have a ton of mower parts as well. Not far behind you in age, main reason why the stock is leaving. Just too much to handle now. I have a very good commercial hay business and I do all of it myself which was my intent when I started. No small squares here, just round bales.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> AgriSuipply (www.agrisupply.com) will have your mower blades and they export as well. I never sharpen mine, just replace them. Have a ton of mower parts as well. Not far behind you in age, main reason why the stock is leaving. Just too much to handle now. I have a very good commercial hay business and I do all of it myself which was my intent when I started. No small squares here, just round bales.


Up my way, it's far and few to see round bales. Most are the large SQ bales due to the amount of horses up here, dairy cow farms and dairy goat farms. The small SQ bales command the premium prices. 

I can understand the large round bales for beef cattle. Works nicely. In the dairy state of WI, rounds are not that popular. 

The upkeep of a small SQ baler can be frustrating. Just depends on the make, model and the years made.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

bmaverick said:


> The upkeep of a small SQ baler can be frustrating. Just depends on the make, model and the years made.


More dependent on age and how it was taken care of, especially the latter. The basic knotter design has remained unchanged for 50 years. Only 'new' edition is poly versus twine or wire.

Never had issue one with the one I just sold but I took care of it, it got it's regular feeding regularly.

Put it on Tractor House and it was gone in 2 days for what I was asking.

Small squares are too labor intensive for the amount of return and I'm too old to chuck 55 pound squares any more, anyway. Never have to worry about loosing my customer, he's a lot younger than I am. I'll be done long before he will. Age does have it's advantages,


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Way back when (in the BC era..lol), my first baler was a New Holland Hayliner that was pretty beat and I got it cheap and learned the in's and out's of making it run It made bales no issue but wasn't fast enough so I bought a new one when I had the money saved up but that is all finished for me now and I'll never go back to it.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

Oh well, mains restored yesterday evening. Moving the pto generator close to the dairy solved the voltage drop problem and made it easy to monitor the voltage indicator light. Suspect the generator may not be putting out as before as there is no voltage drop with the mains when the various milk plant components cut in. Will try a speed reduction gearbox if I get the chance. Focus now on rebuilding and getting back to haymaking. Thanks to all on this site who gave advice and will take the tour and check other threads. Hope there's a thread on how to deal with over-heating wives. The new puppy, aptly named "Storm" by the children, is living up to its name, destroying the wife's house plants, everybody's shoes, cushions, even the slippers of a little boy who came visiting - his mother had bought them for him the day before. So the little lady is pretty perked up. I'm already missing the roar of the tractor engine driving the generator which drowned out some of the names she was calling me and the puppy. Again thanks to all!


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Kind of surprised it don't have a voltage and amperage meter. Mine has both but my amp meter is calibrated in percent of load, not output amps.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Kind of surprised it don't have a voltage and amperage meter. Mine has both but my amp meter is calibrated in percent of load, not output amps.


This is a 3-phase generator which, I assume, my electrician has modified to work as 2-phase. It has 3 amp meters and 1 volt meter. It has a light which stays steady at the correct voltage; blinks fast if it's too high, slow if the revs are too low. I don't know the significance of the amps or how they're calibrated. There are a few videos showing similar Froment generators on YouTube but they don't seem to have meters.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Mine is 3 phase and single phase both. 3 phase for the shop machinery and single for the house. I didn't install it, I suck with electricity. Had it done professionally. It runs off my 500 gallon bulk diesel tank.


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## willy81 (Jan 30, 2020)

I would think that you would have a diesel powered generator instead of one
run by a tractor. I just purchased a Yanmar 5500 watt generator to power
our house when the powed goes out. I have a 35 hp tractor but don't want 
to use a tractor to power a generator. If you have your tractor running the
generator you can't use your tractor for anything else if you really need it!

willy


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

In Canada we have supply management, which guarantees a certain price for the milk, however, you have to buy quota and are restricted by how much you can sell. If you have 150 milking cows you will earn a comfortable living if well managed.

Because new quota is hard to come by, farmers have to improve efficiencies in order to increase their profit. There’s arguments for and against this system, but as far as I can tell, the dairy farmers are doing okay.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

marc_hanna said:


> In Canada we have supply management, which guarantees a certain price for the milk, however, you have to buy quota and are restricted by how much you can sell. If you have 150 milking cows you will earn a comfortable living if well managed.
> 
> Because new quota is hard to come by, farmers have to improve efficiencies in order to increase their profit. There’s arguments for and against this system, but as far as I can tell, the dairy farmers are doing okay.


I'd think that would depend on the bulk price of the end product... milk. 150 productive head isn't much around here. My buddy milks 500 head and is living hand to mouth lately because the price of bulk milk is depressed. Input costs don't go down, if anything, they increase year over year.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Canada with their quota system and price supports are enabling the smaller dairies to stay in business.
Not like the US has done, bigger, cheaper and deeper in debt.


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## RH Bim (Jul 5, 2021)

I was in dairying (cows) from 1975 but sold out in 1989 when quotas (based on the Canadian model) were about to come in. I had no objection to quotas - they work wonderful to match supply and demand - but seems the farmer gets the dirty end of the deal. You get a good year, animals producing like crazy, feel you're going to make some money. Suddenly you hear milk is being over supplied and you're getting next to nothing or dumping.

My beef with quotas was that we import lots of New Zealand milk powder to make "evaporated" milk ( which is actually partially reconstituted milk). There is no quota on the New Zealand milk. And with all the talk of world trade agreements and "level playing field", governments aren't supposed to financially assist farmers.

I bought two goats as pets, had well over a hundred a few years later and supply fresh milk to most of the major supermarkets. Also a big market for puppies, lambs and sometimes orphan piglets.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

My issue with any government subsidy is just that. In the end, paid for with tax dollars and who pays the taxes. One guess.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Subsidies are paid for by the taxpayers, no doubt.
I'm generally not in favor of them, but I do wonder if sometimes they might be the better way to go if they go were intended and not by the sharpest pencil.
As the smaller businesses get pushed out by the larger does the consumer benift or not. Is a slightly higher cost actually better for all in the long run.
And is that even a concern of government or should they keep there noses out.
Then what about the huge monopolies that rise up.
I don't have all the answers but lots of questions.
Oh, and I completely despise big government and intrusive self important bureaucrats.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

If you ever sit down and pencil out just how much you pay out in taxes, it's appalling. Guess my issue is you 'have to pay taxes' but have no control over how the taxes are disbursed and to what. The government (and that includes the Canadian Government) is the largest employer and makes no tangible product but consumes huge amounts of money in imposed taxes. I'm all about less government and less taxiation myself. Seems as though they don't really care about fiscal responsibility, after all. it's not their money they are spending unwisely, it's yours or should I say WAS yours.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Can't and would not disagree.
We sure are getting a long way from PTO generators.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Sure are so I digress...


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