# AC won't crank cold



## packrat

My recently acquired AC 416S won't start when cold.
New battery, reman and new AC Delco Starter Generator, new regulator, charges fine. Zero issues above 50 degrees, will start fine on a warm day. Switched to 10W30 oil in crankcase, won't turn over without big jump start below 45 degrees or so. Its all but impossible to get it to crank over below freezing. 
Belt is new. Group 51 battery is new and fully charged. Both the old and new battery does the same thing when cold, I have to charge the battery for hours, then hope it fires on the first crank or its dead. My gear starter tractors don't have this issue. The battery load tests to 640 CCA and holds 12.72 Volts but won't survive the load of trying to turn over the motor when cold. 

I get similar issues with both of my 3410 machines but they won't be doing snow plow duty this winter and still have 30W oil. All have brand new batteries. 
The same battery will start my truck over and over but dies trying to fire up this little Briggs 16hp. The motor runs fine and will start over and and over again once warm. The odd part is that it don't feel any harder to turn over by hand then do any of my other big iron Briggs motors. 
If I could find the parts, I'd convert this thing to a geared starter in a minute.

The engine is newer but don't have a ring gear. The last owner told me he bought a 16hp short block and hunted down the rest of the parts from an old Simplicity when the Kohler died. 

I've gone so far as to directly jump the starter/generator thinking it was a connection issue but it won't do the job. Below freezing it can take two other batteries to get enough power to turn over. I also swapped in two known good generators. A compression check gives me 141 PSI of compression, about 5 pounds more than another Briggs 16hp single I have here. I also replaced both battery cables with new 6 gauge cables.
When I hit the key, the belt squeals a bit, then tried to turn the motor but the motor turns too slow to fire, the amps climb, and the battery gives up.
The belt is tight, probably too tight right now but it still slips. Is there a pulley size option for these? Maybe that will help? Once it gets it spinning, it spins fine and it'll start, its getting the motor turning initially is the problem. 
I find that even below freezing, without charging the battery first, if I roll the flywheel or help the starter by hand it will take over and crank the motor. 
All of my s/g equipped engines have issues cold but this one is by far the worst, yet its got nearly all new parts and lighter oil. 
I'm not a big fan of lighter oil, since this thing will get worked hard if it snows, but with the 30W in it I couldn't get it to so much as budge even by hand below freezing. If I'm having this much trouble now, what will I do when it really gets cold out?


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## stickerpicker

Are the sheave ratios correct or have they been modified?


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## packrat

They appear to be the same as on my 3410, the flywheel pulley is huge, basicaly the diameter of the flywheel screen, roughly 8" or so, and the s/g pulley is about 3 1/2". 
The pulley on the flywheel isn't changeable, but I suppose the pulley on the s/g can be changed. It cranks fairly slow, even with the plug out, so I get the impression any slower and it may not fire even in warm weather. It seems to crank about the same speed as my 3410 though. 

I tried something today, just to prove to myself its not a motor or compression issue, after it wouldn't crank over at 34 degrees outside, I pulled the belt off and fired it up with a rope, it fired right off, first revolution. It pulls super easy with a rope, I don't get why the s/g won't do the job. I swapped the s/g with one from my 3 speed 3410, no change, and on my 3410, the s/g that came off the 416s will even start the thing in gear while moving the tractor. So its not a bad s/g.

The only real difference here is that the 416s has a newer Briggs 16hp vs the 1973 10hp on the 3410 and a few pounds more compression. I should have eliminated any wiring when I tried jumping it right at the s/g. ground on the block and s/b bracket, and the jumper cable from my truck on the 'S' terminal. Still, it won't turn over without help on this motor. It spins fine once I give it a 'push' with my hand. I can roll the flywheel a bit and it spins up fine and will keep spinning. 
Something else I noticed is that it cranks better when I jump it with the key off, once the key is turned on it cranks harder. I've gotten in the habit lately of jumping it at the s/g, then once its spinning I turn the key on and it fires up.

The whole kicker is that it works perfect with no issues in even slightly warmer weather. Today, at 34 or so degrees with some frost on the hood, the #51 battery wouldn't even think of turning over the engine, even with a charge over night, I then sat a group 27 deep cycle battery from my boat on the running board, with jumper cables, and still needed to pull the truck over and another set of jumper cables. It then cranked slow but eventually started with the truck revving about 2500 rpm.
Once it started, it stopped and started 10 times all day long with no issues. Let it sit over night and your screwed. 

If I leave the truck outside, put the tractor in the garage with a heater near it, it'll fire right up after it warms up a bit without a jump or charge. 
I switched to 10w30 oil thinking it was the oil getting too thick to crank over but the oil is fine, and we're not talking super cold weather, it acts up even before it gets down below freezing. I suppose starting this to plow snow below 20 degrees is out of the question. 

Can I convert this to a geared starter? Is the flywheel on a 326427 series Briggs the same on a s/g model as on the later geared starter models? The one machine I have with a gear driven starter fires right up no matter what, even with the 30w oil still in it and a way too small l/g battery.


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## stickerpicker

For a 640 cca battery to be knocked on its butt that quick there must be something wrong with the wiring. Is the tractor a neg. ground system? Do you know what amp. battery it had originally from the factory?

You could try putting an amp. meter on the starter cable to check for amp draw? Starters and batteries are usually designed for the load they will have when cranking on a particular unit. 

Example: a 15 hp briggs under normal conditions will draw around 100 or so amps. If conditions cause 300 amps to be drawn the starter just won't do it. The starter just wasn't designed for those amps. Bigger batteries and jumping doesn't necessarily give the starter mower power but adds to the time maximum power can be drawn.

Since it cranks easily with the rope I'm saying there is a wiring problem. That's my story and I'm sticken to it - for now anyway -


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## packrat

I figured I'm pretty much eliminating any wiring when I try to jump the thing at the starter itself, I'm applying direct power to the S terminal and grounding right at the engine block or s/g bracket.

The original battery was smaller, I went with the group 51 because its a bit higher rated and still fit the original tray.

The starter generator draws about 140 amps when warm, and over 200 amps cold. 
The motor does turn harder cold than when warm but no so much that it feels tight. Since I can start it by hand I've just about eliminated any motor issues. 
I compared the starter draw on both this and my 10hp 3410, and the 3410 draws slightly less amps, but the amps rise as you crank either one if it don't start, as the battery cables warm up.
I see three issues with the starter generator set ups, they don't turn very fast to begin with, they don't make much torque compared to a geared starter, and they draw gobs of power. 

To me, the thing reminds me of dealing with an old 6 volt car in the cold, only its not that cold out yet.


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## stickerpicker

Why just one crank to knock a 640 amp battery down is beyond me. Consider a ground strap for a good neg connection.


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## packrat

The negative battery cable is attached right to the s/g bracket below the pulley with a second cable going from there to the frame on an engine mount bolt. 

I took the s/g and battery off and took it to an auto electric shop today, they said both test fine. On the bench the s/g runs fine, but still don't seem very strong, I can hold it back by hand with a heavy glove on. I can do the same on any of these. 
I can't stop it though once its spinning. Unloaded it only draws 33 amps. 

I was messing around today just trying to figure this out and found that on the 3410, I can spin the pulley on the s/g by hand, thus also turning the motor over, but on the 416s, I can not get it turning, yet both motors feel about the same turned by the flywheel pulley. The belt on the 416s is way longer, and the way the s/g mounts is different. The s/g hangs way out to the right on the 416s, it has to to clear the hood. On the 3410, its got a more compact mount keeping the belt short and the s/g under the hood. The 416s was converted at some point from a Kohler to a Briggs motor prior to my owning it, but it was fine until the weather cooled down. 

What ever the issue is, its temp related, it starts fine when warm, or in warmer weather. It just won't crank when its cold outside. 

I think my only option may be to just convert this to a gear starter, if that's possible.

Of course by doing that I'll still need to run a generator or alternator to charge the battery.


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## oldguychuck

I don't really know anything about it, but you did say it starts easy in a warm room or shop.

What I have done with my 574 years ago is install an electric block heater that somehow circulates the rad fluid (water/anti freeze) and warms the block up to operating temps in about an hour at mid winter temps.


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## packrat

The 416S is a garden tractor with an air cooled Briggs Stratton engine, so there's no way to use a block heater like on a water cooled machine.


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## oldguychuck

Well, I told ya I didn't know anything about it !

What about an electric blanket or a very small shot of ether ?

Old Guy Chuck


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## packrat

It has to crank first for even ether to work. 
Its 44 degrees out this morning and it wouldn't even think of turning over. Yet when I gave the flywheel a bump with my hand, it spins over and starts right up. It acts like a starter with a bad spot on the armature, but I've already eliminated that by swapping out the s/g. (And it works fine when its warmer outside.

I think I've got a line on a parts motor with a geared starter and a flywheel to match. the s/g will remain but just as a generator I guess, unless I can swap over the whole stator from the other motor, but the rest of the wiring on this thing would have to change as well then. Right now its got a mechanical voltage regulator mounted behind the battery hooked to the s/g, I'm not sure how I'd have to hook up a Briggs stator to that, if I'd even need it at all.


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## wjjones

Could it be the frame ground loosing connection with the metal contracting in the cold?


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## packrat

But wouldn't it still crank over with the jumper cables right on the starter generator?
I'm grouding it to the bolt tab and bracket on the gen. and connecting the positive to the S terminal and it still won't go without a jump from something big like a running truck and sometimes it takes that combined with the deep cycle battery from my boat. 

Also, wouldn't a bad ground show up when its warm?

It refused to crank this morning, the battery showed 12.49 volts, it wouldn't even begin to rotate the engine. I pulled the truck over, let it run, still nothing, with both connected, with a gloved hand I palmed the bare crankshaft end out front and gave it a twist and it cranked right up and started. If I shut it down, it fires right back up without a jump. 
If it were an AC current motor, I'd say it needed a new starter capacitor. 
Out of frustration I tried a brand new chinese s/g today and let it sit, but it did the same thing. Back on went the known good original Delco Remy starter gen.
It has to be in the motor somehow, either the later model 16hp needs a compression relief or they just don't work well with starter gen type starters. 
The compression is only slightly higher but I notice if I pull this thing over really hard with a rope, it pulls harder than if pulled over with less speed. If I rope crank my 10hp on the 3410, it makes no difference. If I rope crank the 16hp in my 416S super fast, the compression strokes feel like its going to tear your arm off, yet when pulled lightly, it spins over fairly easy and still fires right up. While there's not much difference in actual compression readings between the 10hp and the 16hp, there's a huge difference in feel when pulled or cranked with a rope all out. 
While the 3410 still cranks a lot slower in the cold, it does at least try to spin no matter what, the 16hp don't even try.
Yet my later model gear starter style 16hp on another machine fires right up no matter what temp.


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## packrat

I got to tinkering with the 416 today, I happened upon a parts machine, a rusted out but running 3416S. I was originally contemplating just converting the 416S to a gear starter but figured finding the parts would cost as much as this parts machine did. 
I unbolted the motor from the 416S, and swapped in the running 16hp Briggs motor from the 3410S. Problem solved, $75 spent and I've got a pile of spare parts as well.
The older motor spins right over and starts instantly. I'll keep the newer model 16hp and hopefully find the parts to convert it back to a gear starter. After pulling the 16hp from the 416, I see it has the cutout for a gear starter already in the shroud, so my guess is they bought a newer motor off the shelf and the gear starter wouldn't fit between the frame rails without cutting and modifying so it got a starter generator. 
The 16hp from the 3416S has 5 psi less compression and it spins freely like the 10hp on my 3410. I think there may be a compression release issue that I'm dealing with here. Maybe the older motors had it and the newer models didn't?

It runs as it should and started right up today at 40 degrees with no problem, hopefully its fine at even colder temps. 
The last thing I need is a starting problem when I go to plow snow with it.


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## wjjones

Glad you got it sorted out.


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## jhngardner367

The older,cast-iron,Briggs/Stratton engines,with the starter/generator always turned slowly.
They have a type of internal timing advance mechanism(NOT A COMPRESSION RELEASE ),that changes the timing,slightly,to ease start-up.
One thing I've found on the older tractors, especially the Starter/generator ones,is that if you use larger,heavy-duty cables,instead of the wimpy tractor ones, they operate better.
Also,get rid of the tractor's original solenoid,and go to Autozone,and get the F496 TG solenoid. It is heavier -duty,and should do the job. Keep the length of the cables just log enough to reach,with 3" extra.
The initial cranking problem,with the smaller solenoid, is because it won't let enough amperage get through, when the solenoid is first activated. 
This causes a massive draw,and a larger load to the battery. The larger- terminal,heavier solenoid gives a heavier jolt,when you first turn the key,and,thus not as big a load on the battery. 
I've had to do the same thing on my 1970 3314v Simplicity,and it starts,hot or cold.
Also,in cold weather,connect a battery tender(float-charger) to it,and take it off before starting. This keeps the full charge in the battery,since cold weather can weaken the charge, even just sitting.


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## packrat

So far so good but it was over 50 degrees today by the time I got on it. 
The solenoid is automotive style, a universal full size solenoid meant for an older Ford I believe. Like my 3410, its mounted right on a bracket attached to the cylinder head bolts.
The cables are the largest diameter I could buy at the local auto parts house. The positive is a bit long but lets me lift the battery out with it still attached. 
(The battery position in this puts the positive terminal rearward under the lip of the dash panel and right next to the right side panel. (If I used a Group 22 battery as called for originally the positive terminal is only a fraction of an inch from the gas tank bracke. The OEM battery is also only 340 CCA, versus the 660 CCA rating on the nearly same size group 51). The 51 is also slightly smaller all around so it fits with better terminal clearance.

My collection of these things is growing, I'm going this week to pick up four more freebie parts machines, all Simplicity and AC models with cast iron Briggs engines.

I'm hoping if I keep the 416S sitting and ready with a plow ready for snow maybe the white stuff will pass us by this winter. It worked last year, had a brand new snow blower sitting and waiting all season, and we had the warmest winter in decades.


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## jhngardner367

Yeah, I know what you mean . Most people(other than farmers) don't realize that snow cover is actually good for the crops . Even though it can be a nuisance ,to most,it's still needed.
Seems ,though , that the more prepared we are, the less we get !
I understand what you're saying,about the battery position,in the Simplicitys,and others. I've seen some that are SCARY ,the way they are set in !
Just a suggestion,here. I found that,on my 3314,if I add a ground from the engine,to the frame( secondary ground),it turned over better ! A quick test is to attach one of the jumper cables,from the engine, to a clean ground on the frame. It might help.


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## packrat

A ground to the frame isn't going to do much on this one since both cables go right to the motor or brackets attached to the motor. It has a wide mesh copper ground strap from the back of the s/gen to the frame either way, and another from the hood to the grill frame, and from the grill to the frame, even though it has no lights or place to mount them. I added a single tractor light for now on the one side where there was already a mounting hole, I couldn't put on on the right side due to the plow linkage being in the way. If I stumbled on one with a light panel I'd add lights but otherwise, it'll have to do the way it is. 

I'm still just hoping that once this warm weather passes this thing still starts ok. 
The fact that it already had all new cables, a new regulator, all new wires, and a ton of ground straps tells me the last owner had the same issues. 

I really wish this was a straight up gear drive unit, minus the shuttle set up but I guess it'll have to do for now. 
I was wondering if I could take a 3 speed with reverse out of a 3410 and put it in the 416S? I did figure out you can swap in a hydrostatic trans from a 3410H, I picked up 3410S which still has the original rear frame set up but a hydrostatic trans installed. It looks like all they did was swap it over and add the linkage. If the front hadn't rusted away, it would still be usable. 

I take it that rust below the battery on these is a big issue?
Nearly every one I find has pretty serious rust there, so far I've only found three out of 30 some machines I've brough home that weren't rusted. My 3410 3 speed is the worst, with the 3410H being the next worst. I realize I'm in NJ and there's some degree of salt air to deal with but its the battery acid that looks to have done all the damage. 
The 416S is pretty bad but the frame is different than on a Simplicity, the area below the battery is rusted but its not major frame structure as on the 3410 models. 
I just welded in new piece of metal to hold the battery up where it belongs. 
The next issue with all of these is finding a better way to hold the tanks in place. I bought two new tank straps online but one of those already broke, I'm thinking of just making two stainless steel tank straps rather than two rubber bands.


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## jhngardner367

Hey,packrat,this is gonna sound stupid,but.....are you pushing down the clutch pedal,when you start it ?


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## packrat

Clutch pedal?

This is a shuttle drive with a clutch/brake pedal on the right. When I start it, its in neutral, clutch has no effect on it in neutral. I have tried it either way, no difference. In neutral, with the rear belt off I can free spin the belt with ease. 

The bevel gear box however cannot be declutched on this, the clutch only releases tension on the rear drive belt from the BGB to the transaxle and locks up the brake drum on the left side of the trans.

The heavy oil in the BGB don't help much I suppose but all of these use the same basic box and gear oil, and only the 416 had the issue, so I didn't figure that was the issue. (I've changed all fluids on each machine, so they all have the same weight oil).


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## jhngardner367

The 3314v,that I have,and the 3414s,that my brother has,does the same thing,UNLESS we push the clutch/brake pedal about 1/2 way. Then ,they roll over easier . It keeps the tension off the belt,so that the heavy oil in the trans,and bevel-drive ,don't cause a drag.
Even in neutral,if the clutch isn't depressed,it's trying to turn the input shafts,and the gear oil acts as a hydraulic load.
Try pushing the pedal 1/2 way,and see what it acts like.


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## packrat

On mine, when the clutch is depressed, it only relaxes tension on the final drive belt to the planetary assembly in the rear. In neutral, with that belt off, you can spin that pulley like a top. 
The bevel gear box never gets disconnected in anyway, its shaft driven direct from the motor. I went so far as to remove the drive belt when I was fooling with it when the other motor was in it, but it didn't seem to matter. If this was a straight manual gear box it would help to declutch the trans but the bigger drag is still most likely the heavy oil in the BGB.


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## gundalf

You may think that I'm nuts, but I had the same problem with my wife's 14hp Craftsman B&S... We spent months messing with it and finally a guy online told me that my valves were out of adjustment, not allowing the decompressing port to be opened at the proper time. I adjusted them and it worked for 2 years until I needed to readjust them. Also worked on two neighbor's B&Ss...


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## jhngardner367

This engine is a flathead,cast-iron Briggs engine.
Packrat,does it have the small,plastic-bodied solenoid? If so,try a solenoid for a Ford truck! They're heavier,and get better contact. I just had to replace the one on mine,and it made a BIG difference.


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## packrat

jhngardner367 said:


> This engine is a flathead,cast-iron Briggs engine.
> Packrat,does it have the small,plastic-bodied solenoid? If so,try a solenoid for a Ford truck! They're heavier,and get better contact. I just had to replace the one on mine,and it made a BIG difference.


This has a full size starter solenoid, there's a huge plate added above the starter generator with the new solenoid, its got Simplicity part numbers on it. It looks like some sort of an add on kit to improve starting. 
The issue seems to be with the battery, if I jump this thing with four big batteries it fires right up, yet the draw don't seem that high. I'm only getting about 177 amps of draw as it cranks dead cold. That reading is far less when its above freezing, I've measured as low as 68 amps with the amp probe on the starter lead. 
My truck draws over 300 on a cold start below freezing on a smaller battery and it always fires up.

The issue seems to be that the starter simply can't turn the added resistance of cold oil. Right now I've got a new starter, new cables, new solenoid, new ignition switch, new Voltage regulator, new wiring to solenoid, a new battery, and it still won't spin over on its own in the cold. A slight tug of a rope though off the flywheel pulley and its up and running, regardless of the starter or temp. It starts that easy hot or cold. It actually fires up faster cold. 
When its hot and been running a bit, its tough to get the belt to grab sometimes, the compression seems to hold back the starter even then. 

I did a hot compression test and got 136psi. Most of the other big Briggs iron motors don't show more than 105 psi or so. This is my only belt starter 16hp right now in a tractor. The others are all gear starter models.


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## jhngardner367

If I remember correctly,these engines have a type of "automatic advance/CR" on the cam gear,and they sometimes stick,in cold weather. 
Using 10w30 oil does help(as long as it's not above 40f)in cold weather. I use it in mine,until the temps are STEADILY above 40f,when I go to SAE 30.


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## packrat

The flat head cast iron motors didn't have a compression release or advance, they have a plain old solid cam shaft with a fixed magneto. There is no means to reduce compression or change timing when cranking. 
If it were a Kohler, it would have a centrifugal compression release below 200 RPM.


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## jhngardner367

If you look at the parts diagram,some cast-iron B/S engines had what they called a timing advance unit on them. Supposedly,it changes the timing,somehow,for easier starting. I've got one in pieces,at the shop,that this unit failed on,and it ended up throwing a rod.
They did away with them at some point.


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## oldguychuck

Good morni ng all

Been reading thru the thread on cold weather starts. Our winter weather ranges from around +8 C down to -25 C. I learned years back not to bother trying to get my tractor to start, or our car or jeep in that kind of weather. All 3 are equipped with block heaters which I plug in at least an hour before I need one to start. Then its a piece of cake, walk in the park.

My 574, without preheating at - 20, won't even think of turning over, never mind starting. Up around the freazing level, it grunts and groans till the battery dies. So I learned to plug it in before breakfast and she's ready to go about the time I am. I use a block heater that heats the water/anitfreeze. When I want to do this, I just plug it in with an extension cord

Another thing I picked up on in these threads is the dead battery. Yep, there are great jumpers around now, but stone cold dead is really dead. When I need to, I will charge a battery for about three days 24/7 to get a full recharge, and check it with a tester. This makes it almost new again.

Also, with our kind of temps, I overdose the rad water with antifreeze - I have always used a 50/50 mix in everything. I don't want to deal with a cracked block at - 40, which we can get once every few years and it lasts for a few days.

If you are more fortunate than me and have a nice warm shop, so much the better. I have no heat in mine, but at least I don't have to shovel the snow off the tractor.

Ah, the joys of winter....

olguychuck


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## krayer

jhngardner367 said:


> This engine is a flathead,cast-iron Briggs engine.
> Packrat,does it have the small,plastic-bodied solenoid? If so,try a solenoid for a Ford truck! They're heavier,and get better contact. I just had to replace the one on mine,and it made a BIG difference.


Ford truck do you like ford!!! Because I do not at all!!!!!!


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## gundalf

krayer said:


> Ford truck do you like ford!!! Because I do not at all!!!!!!


It's about the last real American vehicle...


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## packrat

krayer said:


> Ford truck do you like ford!!! Because I do not at all!!!!!!


What does this have to do with a starting problem?

If you must know, I'll drive anything American, (Ford, Chevy, Dodge etc.). 
The rest can be turned into beer cans or bullets as far as I'm concerned.


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## skunkhome

I'm a little late to the dance but it sounds like you had a bad SG.


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## packrat

Not sure, its working fine now that its warmer out. The starter/gen works fine, it charges 14.2 volts and spins fine above freezing. 
We never got any snow, I guess the snow plow on the tractor warded off any snow. I'm sure the minute I remove the plow and pack it away in a corner somewhere we'll get a foot of snow.


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## BigSeansMowers

Did you ever figure out what was wrong with it?


When my simplicity wouldn't start cold I figured out that there was a wire that was stripped a little and grounding out so it wasn't giving enough juice to start the tractor when she needed to work.

BigSean


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## sunn300t

i didnt read all the posts but my k321 wh had the same problem it used to help to pour hot/warm water on the starter i tried a hair dryer but it just blew cold air
now im in the process of grinding down brushes from another starter to fit so it was on its way out anyway.


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## skunkhome

packrat said:


> The 416S is a garden tractor with an air cooled Briggs Stratton engine, so there's no way to use a block heater like on a water cooled machine.


The 416s originally had a gear start Kohler. I would suspect you have a mismatching of components since someone has repowered with a Briggs. Actually I would love to see a photo of the tractor to see how they overcame interference of the taller Briggs with the hood and grill supports.


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## jhngardner367

The Simplicity/AC/Agco had Briggs/Stratton engines(230000 series),cast iron,with a Delco starter/generator,and were notorious for slow rollover speed. This engine was made with a counter-balance gear,AND a Timing-variance on the camshaft gear.
Kohler engines were used on SOME,as a replacement,when Briggs stopped making the cast-iron engines.

One problem that plagued these engines,was the wire to the points would ground out against the point cover,and it wouldn't start.
Another problem,was that the starter/generator spun the engine slowly,and a heavier battery/jumping,was needed.
The shuttle drive has a sheave-type clutch that does relax tension,on the belt,when the clutch/brake pedal is depressed halfway(if adjusted properly).
For digrams: partstree.com click Simplicity,click lawn/garden tractors or enter model #1600260
After working on these units for 15 years in my own shop,and other shops before that, trust me,I'M VERY familiar with them !


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## skunkhome

The 300 and 400 series tractors had single cylinder "K" series Kohlers *only* with geared starter. The Tractors were made by AC in their own plant in Lexington SC. They were the first garden tractors with the AC brand that had Kohler engines and all subsequent gasoline powered large frame (700 & 900 series) tractors with a very few exceptions were powered by Kohler "K's" or KT's. All Gasoline powered AGCO Sovereign types had Kohler engines. Simplicity followed suit after 1975 or 76.

All the large frame tractors both FDT's and RBT's 3 speed, Hi-lo's, 6 speed, shuttles, vari-drives and hydrostatics had sheave type clutches. It is advisable to depress the clutch/brake pedal when starting in cold weather . Its a good safety procedure regardless.


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## jhngardner367

Packrat, POST A PIC of the tractor,and engine!


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## skunkhome

Agreed, I would love to see that beast. I've only seen one AC 400 series with a Briggs and it was horribly butchered to provide room for the carb.


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## jhngardner367

A lot depends on what YEAR the tractor is,also. The older ones,I think, had the Briggs,and the newer ones had the Kohler? It is listed at Partstree.com,as having a Briggs230000 series,but, I didn't check the LATER models. Only the ones I'm familiar with.


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## jhngardner367

*ac/simplicity*

OK, skunkhome, I think I figured out where I went wrong.
AC purchased Simplicity,in the '60s.
AC made a 416s for BOTH names, in 1973. HOWEVER, the Simplicity416s(mod #1600260),was powered by a B/S 230000 series engine,and the AC 416s,was powered by the KOHLER engine.
So,basically you are more correct,than I,since packrat was asking about the AC 416s.

Ironically,Simplicity bought out AC,during their financial problems,and,in 2004 Briggs/Stratton bought out Simplicity.


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## skunkhome

I'm afraid that information is incorrect. The tractor was built around the Kohler engine geometry and layout. 
This was one of the first 300 series to hit the market. 








It was an AC 312D powered by a Kohler K301 which BTW turned out to be a real dog. We wish they had made them with the Briggs. The 400 series was essentially the same.
This is packrat's tractor from this thread: http://www.tractorforum.com/f154/looking-older-tougher-garden-tractor-brand-22931/index3.html
It obviously a repower but though the hood has been cut it still looks pretty neat.








Hey if it works....


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## jhngardner367

http://www.partstree.com/parts/?lc=simplicity&mn=1600260+-+416S,+16HP+Shuttle

As you can see, there IS a Simplicity 416s WITH a B/S engine ! If you can see the tag on the lower part of the shroud,you may see: made for AllisChalmers by Briggs/Stratton.


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## film495

I run Synthetic 5w20 in winter, K301S - 12hp air cooled. I figure if running 30 weight in the summer during 80-90 degree weather is good, then a lighter oil, running much cooler, in air that is potentially 100 degrees cooler, seems like it would be more correct than running 10w30. It says to do so in the original Ariens manual to run 5w20 oil when running the snowthrower also. Might help that engine crank a little easier.


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