# MF65 Hydraulics



## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

I've owned my MF65 for 30 years, its a 1960, hydraulics have been mostly trouble free except for 3point hitch slowly dropping, still functional & I was able to work around it
In December hydraulics stopped working, I pulled draft control, I have the dual spool, & replaced o-rings on stand pipe to no effect, as it was winter I chose to wait till spring to take apart
I've now removed the hydraulic pump, found what I'll call the canister, (which is where later years must have the filter), crushed with an accumulation of steel grindings on the bottom, I don't think this was the direct cause of failure as it looked to have been ground up while still running with debris probably damaging the pump leading to eventual failure
Im going to install a new pump,
my question is the cause of the 3point not holding pressure, the work cylinder
& piston move freely, not sure how to determine if thats where 3point could be losing pressure?
It would be nice to have it function correctly. I see theres an o-ring between the work cylinder & the lid, I dont see a part listing for that, is it the same o-ring as on the standpipe?


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## HarveyW (Sep 15, 2014)

Howdy dkarten78, welcome to the forum. 

Normally, worn lift piston seal rings are the primary contributor to the 3 point slowly drifting down. Obviously, there are other components that may be leaking. Hey, they are only 60 years old!


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## HarveyW (Sep 15, 2014)

The attached video is for a Massey Ferguson 35; however, you may gain some insight by watching as a Massey Ferguson 65 hydraulic system is similar.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

HarveyW said:


> Howdy dkarten78, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Normally, worn lift piston seal rings are the primary contributor to the 3 point slowly drifting down. Obviously, there are other components that may be leaking. Hey, they are only 60 years old!


I've removed the lift piston from the cylinder but don't have any specs to measure, can rings be worn & piston & cylinder be OK?


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## HarveyW (Sep 15, 2014)

dkarten78 said:


> I've removed the lift piston from the cylinder but don't have any specs to measure, can rings be worn & piston & cylinder be OK?


I think that most guys replace the seal rings and move on. Fedup can probably provide the piston and cylinder specs and advise further details


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

HarveyW said:


> I think that most guys replace the seal rings and move on. Fedup can probably provide the piston and cylinder specs and advise further details


THX, not sure what Fedup is?


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

I agree, unless you see major scratches or wear in the cylinder, new rings (as inexpensive as they are) would do all you need. 

The pump is another matter. You stated you plan on a new pump? Your choice of course, but I wouldn't go there. I don't think I've ever replaced an entire pump. Too many variables. Even though most Massey lift pumps are basically the same, some had slightly different configurations, different spline counts on the shafts, W/WO pressure control, auxiliary pumps, etc. I usually just find a kit, replace the pistons, valve chambers, gaskets, O rings and put the same pump back in. Unless you tear it down and see something else, that would be my suggestion. If the screen is damaged beyond repair usually you can clean it up and put that back too. In your case that may not work.


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

dkarten78 said:


> THX, not sure what Fedup is?


Sometimes I'm not sure either.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> I agree, unless you see major scratches or wear in the cylinder, new rings (as inexpensive as they are) would do all you need.
> 
> The pump is another matter. You stated you plan on a new pump? Your choice of course, but I wouldn't go there. I don't think I've ever replaced an entire pump. Too many variables. Even though most Massey lift pumps are basically the same, some had slightly different configurations, different spline counts on the shafts, W/WO pressure control, auxiliary pumps, etc. I usually just find a kit, replace the pistons, valve chambers, gaskets, O rings and put the same pump back in. Unless you tear it down and see something else, that would be my suggestion. If the screen is damaged beyond repair usually you can clean it up and put that back too. In your case that may not work.


my 1960 pump has no filter, I assume a new updated one does, you say you clean the screen, I found no screen in the chewed up parts, what I think was a cannister that goes where I think the filter does on the updated pump was crushed beyond use, I think this is where a screen would be, it is the pump pick up, correct? the pump was exposed to metal particles from that & I don't think it should be rebuilt. On the lift cylinder/piston I have read about machining one piston ring groove to fit an o-ring, is that something you'd recommend?


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

The screen is indeed part of the inlet assembly. AGCO parts site shows five or six different lift pumps for the 165, none of which appear to come without a screen. You've had the tractor for years and have no memory of anyone who may have been in there and changed anything? Assuming that's the case, and you do plan on a new pump, I would suggest you figure out what you have now, and not just order one that's stated to fit a 165. You might get lucky and you might not. If it were me, I would look into replacing the inlet section parts needed to install a screen as well as a kit for the pump. It will come with all the moving parts except the shaft and the control valve. Those are separate parts not included in any of the kits I've used. 

About the piston rings. Some may replace the cast rings with O rings, but I don't. The rings are easy to find, inexpensive, and if they got you this far another set will probably get you as far as you need to go.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> The screen is indeed part of the inlet assembly. AGCO parts site shows five or six different lift pumps for the 165, none of which appear to come without a screen. You've had the tractor for years and have no memory of anyone who may have been in there and changed anything? Assuming that's the case, and you do plan on a new pump, I would suggest you figure out what you have now, and not just order one that's stated to fit a 165. You might get lucky and you might not. If it were me, I would look into replacing the inlet section parts needed to install a screen as well as a kit for the pump. It will come with all the moving parts except the shaft and the control valve. Those are separate parts not included in any of the kits I've used.
> 
> About the piston rings. Some may replace the cast rings with O rings, but I don't. The rings are easy to find, inexpensive, and if they got you this far another set will probably get you as far as you need to go.


Thx for all your replies fedup
fir the record, my tractor is a 65, not a 165, I removed the rings from the piston thinking I could check their clearance in the cylinder but was unable to remove any without breaking them, I have experience building engines & fitting rings & pistons but each one broke in the process. Will I have difficulty installing the new rings?


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

Sorry, I misread the original post. The rings shouldn't be a problem. The last ones I installed I spread them with easily and slipped them on with out issue.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> Sorry, I misread the original post. The rings shouldn't be a problem. The last ones I installed I spread them with easily and slipped them on with out issue.


OK, Thx, I'll be ordering parts soon, might need help for reassembly, had a question about the o-ring between the lift cover & the cylinder, I don't see it listed in the parts list from Yesterdays Tractor , which is where I will be ordering from, agco doesn't seem to be accessible for retail buyers. is the o-ring between the lid & cylinder the same as on the standpipe?


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

No it won't be the same. The standpipe O ring is 3/8 I.D. that one is more like 7/16. It's nothing special, you can most likely find one in a standard O ring kit to match it.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> No it won't be the same. The standpipe O ring is 3/8 I.D. that one is more like 7/16. It's nothing special, you can most likely find one in a standard O ring kit to match it.


OK, Thank you


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

dkarten78 said:


> OK, Thank you


I replaced the hydraulic pump with a new one, it seemed to be identical to previously installed pump, all o-rings, the piston rings & all gaskets , filled with fresh hydraulic fluid .Still no hydraulics, I have not yet removed inspection cover to check stand pipe but sure I placed it properly in hole before tightening draft control Considering the debris found there was no doubt about replacing or rebuilding pump but could original failure have been in draft control?
PTO is turning on engine speed


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

I removed draft control & there is no fluid coming up stand pipe when tractor is running


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

dkarten78 said:


> I removed draft control & there is no fluid coming up stand pipe when tractor is running


What do you mean by "draft control"? You lost me on that. Typically, no fluid coming up the standpipe means the bottom end is not actually in the port ( fluid never enters the pipe), or the control valve is in the "lower" position and the pump is effectively turned off. 

Considering it didn't work BEFORE you took it all apart, and in fact you did take it all apart, it's hard to say from out here what might be wrong at this point. If it were me, I'd be taking the right side cover off, watching and playing with the linkage right there before taking anything else apart looking for problems. If the pump is good, the lift circuit is good, then you can raise and lower the lift arms from there with one fingertip.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> What do you mean by "draft control"? You lost me on that. Typically, no fluid coming up the standpipe means the bottom end is not actually in the port ( fluid never enters the pipe), or the control valve is in the "lower" position and the pump is effectively turned off.
> 
> Considering it didn't work BEFORE you took it all apart, and in fact you did take it all apart, it's hard to say from out here what might be wrong at this point. If it were me, I'd be taking the right side cover off, watching and playing with the linkage right there before taking anything else apart looking for problems. If the pump is good, the lift circuit is good, then you can raise and lower the lift arms from there with one fingertip.


My error in calling the 2 spool remote control valve the draft control 
I will go in through the rt side inspection cover and check that the standpipe is properly situated. I was careful in aligning it when I lowered the cover and I ensured the levers were in front of the roller.
should I drain some fluid to remove the cover?

I compared the new pump to the old, everything was identical except the new pump had a filter that came safety wired


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

I'm not sure what you aligned when lowering the cover. If you're referring to the standpipe, I put the cover on and install the pipe last. Too much chance of damaging the pipe if you put it on first. 

It's a new pump with a new control valve?


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> I'm not sure what you aligned when lowering the cover. If you're referring to the standpipe, I put the cover on and install the pipe last. Too much chance of damaging the pipe if you put it on first.
> 
> It's a new pump with a new control valve?


 new pump, not new control valve, I aligned the 2 levers in front of the roller, then after lid installed I installed stand pipe & control valve 
Should I remove some fluid before removing side cover?


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

Sounds like you did it right. Just put a pan under the side cover and remove the bottom bolt. The oil will soon seek that level. Then remove the cover and put the bolt back in few few threads. You can run the tractor up to moderate RPM in that condition without much mess. Then you can see what the linkage is doing with the roller, move it back and forth by hand, and see what happens.


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Fedup said:


> Sounds like you did it right. Just put a pan under the side cover and remove the bottom bolt. The oil will soon seek that level. Then remove the cover and put the bolt back in few few threads. You can run the tractor up to moderate RPM in that condition without much mess. Then you can see what the linkage is doing with the roller, move it back and forth by hand, and see what happens.


Thanks Fedup, appreciate your help, I’ll post my results


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

Today I removed inspection cover & found that the valve lever will not move, it is adjusted correct in relation to the vertical levers but I get no rearward movement, I have now drained more fluid so I can investigate further


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

"The valve lever will not move". What does that mean? Is that the two steel strips with roller between them or something else? If it's that, then it doesn't move along with the vertical levers, or it doesn't move at all even with help from the outside?


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

When I refer to the valve lever it is the lever with a roller, with a nylock nut in the center, that extends downward on the pump and connects to a rod that goes forward when the top roller end is pushed backwards. When I push on that valve lever on the old pump, on the bench, the lever moves backwards on top and pushes the rod on the bottom forward, however, when I try to push the roller (valve lever) backwards on the installed pump I cannot move it


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

Sounds like the control valve on the old pump operates as it should, and the one on the new pump does not. Something down there is bound up, out of place, or possibly even assembled incorrectly. I doubt you can see much through the hole, but I would start there. Drain the oil and take a look. At this point I suspect you will have the pump back out on the table before it's corrected. 

Did that mechanism seem work properly before you installed it?


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## dkarten78 (9 mo ago)

I’ve been successful! I found the rod that actuates the pump, which the lower roller on the valve lever contacts, had bent, I was able to straighten it without removing the pump & it works fine now
once I had it running the action was very slow, then I remembered I had made adjustments called for in the manual requiring the draft control be placed in a specific location, once I placed those controls back where they had been the hydraulics worked perfectly 
Is there a specific position those controls should be in for optimum operation?
Thx for pointing me in the right direction Fedup


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

Specific position"? I'm not aware of one. It's more a matter of what works best for you. Wherever you can get the lift arms to operate as you need, then that's the position. Personally, I find the draft control is often more nuisance than help. The original design may have had merit at the time, but who actually uses draft control on that size tractor anymore? Most owners don't know (or care) much about it.


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