# Kolhler MV18S two cyl., horizontally apposed, vertical shaft in trouble.



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

I recently bought a "new to me" 1994 Craftsman Garden Tractor GT 6000.
It looks extremely well maintained, but my local mechanic suggests that the 
motor is in serious trouble.
My options.
1. Spend big bucks breaking the motor (Kohler Magnum, Model #MV18S) down and rebuilding it.
2. Find a used motor of the exact same specs and swap the motor out.
3. Buy a Tractor with the same specs and which he suggests will be cheaper than finding the 
motor, as a stand alone … and using the second purchase as a "parts tractor" … swap out the motor.

Obviously, I am constrained by my own skills which are not good enough to swap out a motor, and constrained by the skills or willingness of my local tractor repair shop to work the full range of options to get this GT6000 back to work.

What are my options?
How would you suggest I work this challenge?


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Since it's a MV18, you're kind of limited by the horizontal shaft. Replacement options are a Briggs Vanguard, CH620 Kohler, or a FH601D Kawasaki.

Of the three, the Briggs Vanguard is the cheapest to buy new....

18HP Briggs Vanguard $950
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/354447-0421-R3.html

CH620 Kohler $1,378
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/CH620-3034.html

FH601D Kawasaki $1,627
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/FH601D-S01-S.html

Can't imagine it would cost over $900 to rebuild your MV18. Parts would run about $300 wholesale. It's 8 hours labor (out, rebuild, back in) at whatever hourly rate ...

Other expenses would probably be exhaust manifold and muffler. Electric PTO, unless you can use you existing. Might also need a "stub shaft kit", depending on the configuration of your GT6000


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> Since it's a MV18, you're kind of limited by the horizontal shaft. Replacement options are a Briggs Vanguard, CH620 Kohler, or a FH601D Kawasaki.
> 
> Of the three, the Briggs Vanguard is the cheapest to buy new....
> 
> ...


Bob,
Thank you for the speedy response.
I have a few qualifiers that may help you help me more accurately.
1. The shaft is definitely a VERTICAL shaft.
2. Specs off the motor tag:
Model #MV18S
Spec No. 58560
DISPL (CC) 691
Serial NO. 2523309646
3 Specs off the Tractor Tag:
Model NO. 917 250480
Serial NO. 090695C 002703

Thanks again for your help.

Ed


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Cool..... Thought you had the Horizontal. Here's the best deal on an engine I know of at the moment. I just slapped one on an Exmark Z-turn last week and they are awesome. Comes with a 3-year warranty from Kohler. These are 1" x 3-5/32 shafts, so make sure your clutch is 1". You should be fine with clutch rotation (CCW), but you want to check to be sure. You'll more than likely need an exhaust manifold and a muffler. This is a 24HP V-twin for $750 + $76 shipping. Ships out of Muncie, IN with UPS and takes 3 days to my driveway in MS. You can usually find a manifold and muffler that will work on your machine for $150 total, if you shop the internet. These guys just got 300 in stock, but they'll go really fast at that price..... I've bought 4 of these and put them on customer machines this Spring (all z-turns) and they couldn't be happier. Smooth, powerful, quiet, and even comes with the Craftsman logo on the blower shroud.

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/KT735-3057.html


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Bob,
Thank you so much for your helpful and knowledgeable responses.
Now that I have a real target for an new motor here is my spend calculus.
1994 Craftsman GT6000 bought for $400.00
New Kolher noted above landed costs $826.00
Workable manifold and muffler, add $150.00
Engine swap out labor $300.00

I'm going to be $1,700-$1,800.00 into this project real quick.
Maybe I should back out and buy something that will be easier to find parts for and
just be a better value. I do however really appreciate the compact sizw and umph of that era GT6000.


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

You're upside down on a project like this when you pay $400 for a machine with a worn out engine, unless it's a commercial grade z-turn, or can rebuild the engine yourself. Piston rings, seal kit, and new valves runs about $225 on most engines


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> You're upside down on a project like this when you pay $400 for a machine with a worn out engine, unless it's a commercial grade z-turn, or can rebuild the engine yourself. Piston rings, seal kit, and new valves runs about $225 on most engines


Again Bob, my thanks for your speedy counsel. I made a mistake on the buy, or at least I took a gamble that was suspect and I did so with a good 3 1/2 hour drive to make the pick up.
My mistake … but my learning curve has been strong. The machine I picked up was seriously noticeably fresher looking than other machines I had been looking at(same brand and vintage). I'm guessing the tractor was not used all that much … but after 26 years some new owner didn't deal with common maintenance, ran the machine light on oil and did some life ending motor damage. I will look for a used identical motor and see if a second parts tractor solves this problem. Thanks again for your efforts.


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Hope I didn't offend you.... I buy and sell a lot of lawn mowers. What I've learned over the years is the most important part is on the *BUYING* end. It don't matter what the machine looks like. A pressure washer and $20 worth of rattle can paint makes almost any machine look new.

I've also learned to stay away from conventional riding mowers and focus only on commercial grade zero turns (Exmark, Scag, Ferris).

Not to thump my chest, but rather to give an example... I went to Georgia last week to pick up a non-running 2014 Exmark, with a 72" deck, and 26HP fuel injected Kohler. Came out of an auction from a municipal parks department. Quit running, city garage couldn't figure out why, it sat for 2 years and they put it up for auction. Went to load it on my trailer(the fuel cap was missing) and fuel sloshed out. It was DIESEL FUEL. Fired it up today and it runs fine after doing a few things the guys at the city garage were obviously clueless about. I won the bid because I was the ONLY bidder. Winning bid $100...

New rear tires $150
New Exmark Seat cushions $130
New belts $100
Fresh paint $50

Total Investment $530

Craig's List asking price for 6 year old, 72" Exmark, with 640 hours $4,600.

On the BUYING end..... Rolled the dice that the boys at the city garage were knuckleheads and were afraid of the fuel injected Kohler. Figured nobody else was going to bid for the same reason. Came up 7's. Doesn't always happen that way, but it sure helps finance a few mistakes when it does


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Ok Bob. I know the rules are that everyone gets to see our conversation, but it seems like a one on one tutorial. Thanks for the generosity.
Here is my current positioning.
1. I heard your advice regarding the importance of the "buying" part of the equation.
I will be far more careful in my next move. I may have to repair my first buy and sell it, 
or take a strong loss on the mistake.
2. Regarding the Craftsman GT6000, I will retrieve the tractor from the local repair shop and spend some time this summer looking for a good used Kohler Magnum MV16S, vertical shaft, Spec No. 58560. If I can find an exact match I also find which of my buddies has any experience 
pulling and replacing small motors and we give the swap out a run on our own labor.
2a. Regarding the Craftsman GT6000 - You helped me find a great buy on an approx. $800.00 new Kohler replacement motor. What is the likely hood that there wouldn't be some serious machine shop work adapting that new motor to the old tractor, which would make the investment painful for a second time? 
3. My continuing research has brought me to a 1970's version of a Case Ingersol 444. This tractor looks like a better match for some of the uses that I want to get from a tractor. It is in good if not better than good existing condition.
Do you happen to have an opinion about that vintage Case 444?


----------



## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Our member *Jssec *does these tractors up. Maybe check out some of his threads.


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

The engine mounts on almost all mowers are universal. Never come across a machine yet that you couldn't "swap" between a Kohler, Briggs, or Kawasaki as long as the crankshaft was the same orientation (vertical, horizontal). The problems are always the exhaust system and the belt/clutch alignment do to different shaft diameters, or length.

The 444, 446, 448 Case tractors were some of the finest machines ever made. I have a 446. The problem becomes that most came with horizontal shaft Onan engines. Onan has been out of business for close to 20 years and parts are getting pricey. Replacement with a late model horizontal shaft is going to be even more $$$. Horizontal twin cylinder engines are way more expensive than vertical shaft engines of the same HP. On a 444, or 446, the best choice in my opinion is a Briggs Vanguard 16HP. On the 448, it would be the Vanguard 18HP.

I'm in the process right now of restoring my Dad's 446 to give to my son. I happen to have a Cub Cadet that had 16HP Vanguard on it I was going to part. I got the Vanguard all mocked up in the chassis last week with the pump bracket, exhaust, and electric clutch all hooked up. I'm about to take it out and go through the engine with a rebuild (rings/heads).

I've already got the B43G Onan sold for the same $$$ it's going to cost me to rebuild and completely install the Vanguard. Is it original?? Nope.... But it is going to be a great working garden tractor/snowplow for the next 20 years. It's not going to be something that sits in a garage collecting dust just so my son can say.... "Look at the great, all original, vintage garden tractor my dad gave me, but I can't actually use for fear of breaking something on the engine and not being able to afford the parts to fix it".

Feel free to use the personal conversation feature of this forum with me any time. We can talk bad about Pogobill and Hoodoo Valley and find out for sure if they can spy on us like the Russian hackers did with Hillary.


----------



## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)




----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Just bored with the 95 degree heat and 97% humidity down here this week and poking a little at you Bill.... 

I can't go down to the shop until after sunset, or I'll start to melt, and you and Hodoo are the only real adult supervision I've got while I'm sitting at this keyboard


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Your community of knowledgeable members is awesome. It gives me a little more courage to follow this new interest.
I am a fully trained cabinetmaker by background. I've taken plenty of shop machines "down to the frame" and rebuilt them back to life. Hardly any experience with internal combustion engines (and no diesel experience what so ever).

So I bought a Craftsman GT6000 that looks like it was stored in a glass case for 26 years .., but has a bad Kohler MV18S on board which my local repair guy (who has some 30+ years experience) says is not worth repairing. The Kohler needs to be swapped out with a new or used motor to save that purchase/tractor. I will teach myself how to swap out a motor using that tractor as a teaching tool and sell it to recoup my now suspect dollars.
Meanwhile I have my eye on a Case 444 that looks like a better tractor for my intended use ... except is does not have a hydraulic PTO in the rear which I have seen in some pictures on this model. Does anyone know how hard it would be to find those parts and the possible costs of those parts, and the difficulty of the install?
I haven't work hydraulics but I've worked with pneumatic systems and their picky switches and valves.


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

What are you planning to drive off of that rear-mount "PTO". The old Case GTs are full hydraulic. Most guys just plumb into the system and add a remote valve body on the fender for attachments. For a 3-point hitch, its just a cylinder. If its a bush hog, a tiller, or a side bar mower its usually a hydraulic motor. 

The problem you can run into with operating a second hyd motor (the rear axle is driven with a hyd motor) is the motors start to compete with each other for oil flow and it slows your ground speed. Not a real problem with a tiller, but can be a little frustrating with a side-bar, or bush hog. I believe the OEM pump flow rate is about 9GPM @ 3,600 RPM


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

The most important thing you need to understand if your considering an older Case GT (before mid-1985) is the Holding/Travel Control Valve scenario. Here's a link to a PDF that will save you a pair of underwear the first time you go down a steep grade with an older Case if you don't know about it.....

https://manuals.casecoltingersoll.com/FAQ/Microsoft Word - All about the Holding Valve.docx_watermarked.pdf


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

OK Bob and Company .... it is showtime for your help
Here are the facts.
1. I bought Craftsman GT6000 for about $400.00
That's not $40.00 but it's not 1200.00 either.
2. The tractor is way cleaner in appearance than any of it's brothers out there that I looked at.
3. The Kohler Magnum vert. shaft MV18S horz. opposed motor is damaged beyond what a sound
opinion would invest in as a rebuild.
Here are the specs:
Kohler Magnum MV18S - 58560
Vertical Shaft
Horizontally opposed cyl.
Picture of motor label attached.

and now the possible replacement motor.
Kohler Magnum MV18S - 58532
Vertical shaft
Picture of motor label and motor attached.

Cost $175.00

Will this motor with the Spec. No. #58532 be close enough for my mechanic to make a 
no trip" to the machine shop swap out with my existing Sec. No. #58560 motor.

Thanks guys.


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

What I was told when I went to Kohler school is that engines with the same model # are all built on the same basic Kohler "platform". The "spec #" indicates the OEM platform the engine was built for (chassis model).

What that means with your MV18S is that all of the internals are the same. The difference will come (if any) in the external peripheral parts. Wiring harness connections, speed control plate, exhaust setup, etc. I was told by one of the long time Kohler instructors that the first 2 digits of the spec # indicate the actual OEM the engine is contracted for and the last 3 digits indicate the reference # of the actual engineering "build sheet" used on the production floor.

I believe you're going to find that both engines are so close in the spec #, that any differences you encounter in the swap can be made up by switching external components between the two engines.

I'd pay close attention to see that ...
1) The exhaust manifold will match up with the muffler mounting on the chassis
2) The crankshaft is the correct diameter/length to match up with the pulley system/clutch on the GT6000
3) The engine wiring matches the same functions as the chassis wiring at the main plug connector where they meet
4) The mounting "ears" between the two pans should be identical, so the chassis mounting holes should line right up.


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Bob and Community ...
My local mechanic was shown pictures of and the motor decal off a possible swap out Kohler MV18S ,Vert. Shaft, Oppose cylinder motor. He kept pawing the ground and took me out to my tractor (sitting out in his yard) and showed me where the problems from the 2 different numbers in the motor Serial # would present a problem. Later in the afternoon he called me back to say that he had called Kohler and got the skinny on what those two numbers meant and said we were headed for too much expense if we didn't find an exact one to one match. So unless I should buy the swap out motor and use it as a parts motor for the internals of my existing motor (which he thought was going to be more expense than was justifiable ) I'm left with going back out into the used Kohler market and trying to find the exact match. I still think this tractor has a life to be lived. I just have to find it a new heart. Suggestions?

Ed


----------



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Not saying anything against your mechanic, but sometimes they don't always give you the straight up information you might want. I can't believe some of the things the Knuckleheads at the Local Dealers have told my customers..... Usually because they didn't know any better, didn't want to do the job, or were trying to pump more money out of the repair 

Call Tech Support at Medart (Kohler Distributor) 1-800-888-7181. They take calls from a consumer same as if you were a Dealer. Give them your model/spec # and they can tell you anything you want to know about making the swap.

As Grandpa used to say.... "They ain't got a dog in the hunt, so there is no need for them to BS you"


----------



## Ed Kleinman (Jul 12, 2020)

Good Morning to all,
Here is where my "Tractor Buying Story" is going.

1. It turns out that without the skills to swap out a motor, buying a 26 year old tractor
with a bad motor for too rich a price puts you in an almost unsolvable situation.
I will part out my "mint condition" Craftsman GT6000, with a bad Kohler 18.5 power plant.
2. I will buy either a Case 444, or Case 446 (whichever I can find at a better value), or a 
Ariens S16H.

I am not as concern with mowing as I am with earth engagement opportunities and the 
Ariens will enable rear 3 point PTO, as will the Case (except the Case may require me to cob 
on the hydraulics which seems to be doable.

Does anyone reading through this forum have a perspective on the relative merits of the Case 444 vs. the Ariens S16H? They seem about at a similar quality and capacities level. And, I am aware of and not concerned about the valve issue around downhill breaking on the Case's of the era I am looking at.

Please advise.
And again, thanks for all the help.

Ed


----------

