# Cold Weather starting



## Glenwood Coleman (Oct 6, 2018)

A quick question from a novice. I have a 1986 Case 485 mostly used for blowing snow. It has a heater in-line with the radiator hose that seems to work well, But I have still had trouble starting it in Cold weather, It would start with a boost from my car but lately (which makes me think its a battery issue) the temperature has been dropping to -15° to -20° C and I can't get it started even with a good long boost from my car. I do not have the option to park it inside. Can anyone suggest what measures I can take to get started in really cold weather? New Battery? Battery Tender? Dip stick heater? A different type of block heater. Willing to make some investment to make sure It will start for me. Thanks very much


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I'd pull the battery and have it load tested first thing. I believe Princess Auto up there will do it.


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## Fedup (Feb 25, 2014)

My faith in radiator hose coolant heaters is rather limited. I can't see much value in warming up coolant in that area. I doubt there is much heat transfer from the hose to the block, which is where you need it in order to be be very effective. I would go with a block or tank heater, possibly both if you're tractor lives outside and you expect to use it much in those temperatures. The engine has no glow plugs but it may have a port in the intake manifold near the air cleaner hose connection that could be used for an air heater or thermostart unit. That would also be helpful in your temperature range. Installing either one would require some extra materials as well as some effort on your part, but certainly could be done.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Both my tractors live in a barn with no electricity and I never have a starting issue because one, I change out my batteries every 3 years for a new one, 2, I use the largest battery that will fit in the tray, 3. I make sure the ground lug to chassis is clean and bright as well as the leads to the starter motor and 4, I keep both my battery terminals and the clamps clean and free from corrosion. You can buy a terminal / post cleaner tool at Harbor Freight for under 3 bucks every day.


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> Both my tractors live in a barn with no electricity and I never have a starting issue because one, I change out my batteries every 3 years for a new one, 2, I use the largest battery that will fit in the tray, 3. I make sure the ground lug to chassis is clean and bright as well as the leads to the starter motor and 4, I keep both my battery terminals and the clamps clean and free from corrosion. You can buy a terminal / post cleaner tool at Harbor Freight for under 3 bucks every day.


Battery should be load tested. Both your tractor engines have glow-plugs. I didn't locate any glow-plugs in CIH 485 parts catalog BUT did locate an ether(starting fluid) aid listed. I noticed while searching 485 parts that it has a Bosch inj pump.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I prefer the Bosch style pump over all the others myself. The two things I like about it is, they are basically trouble free and they advance the to 100% fuel output to the injectors upon starting so the cylinders get a big shot of fuel when you initially crank them and the glo plugs or start aid get a nice shot of fuel to pop off. They only advance to 100% for a split second but that is usually enough. Mine start right up no matter how cold they are so long as I preheat the glo plugs sufficiently. Mine are manual so I can preheat as long as I want to but usually 10 seconds (me counting 1,001, 1002 to 10 is always sufficient.

Neither of my pumps have ever been touched but I do change the fuel filters very regularly and use anti-gel (Powerservice winter blend) in the fuel as they reside in an ambient temperature barn with no electricity. and I make sure my starting battery is always up to snuff and I also change out my starting batteries every 3 years no matter what and the terminals are clean and corrosion free and so is the battery to chassis ground cable and the battery to starter relay cable.

Because my units are pure mechanical and no computer involved, I always take the starting battery out of circuit when they are parked. I use a knife switch mounted on the negative post of the starting battery and I open the circuit when they are parked and close it prior to starting them. Finally, I use the largest starting battery with the most CCA that will fit in the battery tray, in my case a Group 31 with 1200 CCA, always sourced from a retailer that has a good turnover in flooded cell batteries, in my case, the local heavy truck dealership.

They both have block heaters that have never been plugged in. Don't need them. Sure they bang and rattle bit on a cold below freezing start but they always start and I'll let them base idle for a minute or two and then advance the throttle slightly and go in the house and have a warm cup of cocoa or coffee and allow them to warm up. I never move either until the temperature gauge has moved off the cold peg.

Just how I do it. To me, the most important aspect is a fully charged starting battery and clean corrosion free connections. People tend to ignore the starting battery and then it won't start because the battery is old and sulfated or the connections are all corroded and when you impede the flow of electrons or they are insufficient, it ain't gonna start.

Popular misconception is that batteries fail in the cold weather. Not true. Batteries actually fail in hot weather but the appear to fail in the cold, because the battery cannot deliver the cranking amps necessary to spin a cold engine and thick oil over. Batteries are pretty immune to the cold. Not so the heat and certainly not when the connections are corroded and have high resistance to electron flow.


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

My '91 JD 4255 has operated over 11,600 hrs without the Bosch inj pump being touched


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm about half way there with the 6200 hours open station. I figure both will outlast me without ever being fiddled with.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Glenwood Coleman said:


> A quick question from a novice. I have a 1986 Case 485 mostly used for blowing snow. It has a heater in-line with the radiator hose that seems to work well, But I have still had trouble starting it in Cold weather, It would start with a boost from my car but lately (which makes me think its a battery issue) the temperature has been dropping to -15° to -20° C and I can't get it started even with a good long boost from my car. I do not have the option to park it inside. Can anyone suggest what measures I can take to get started in really cold weather? New Battery? Battery Tender? Dip stick heater? A different type of block heater. Willing to make some investment to make sure It will start for me. Thanks very much


OK, I took a quick look to see if the Case 485 was what I was thinking it was. Yep, a newer version of my older IH 574.
One, your lower radiator hose heater if it's working will help heat the block of your engine, to check is the hose above the heater going into the block
hot and the head should be warm.
Two, clean and check all of your battery cables and connections.
Have the battery load tested or just replace it.
Three you could put a battery maintainer on to keep the battery fully charged and warm,
that will help immensely in starting.

*Four*, replace that old starter with a good gear reduction starter.
A good battery and a good reduction starter will be a huge improvement.
This is the one I actually put on my 574 this winter and is listed for your 485 also.
New Upgraded Gear Reduction Starter Replacement for IHC 674D 684 784 884 2500AD | eBay


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

I picked up a small solar battery maintainer / charger at Canadian Tire and tie wrapped it to the front of my tractor. Worked well. 
I now have one nail to the tractor shed and hook it up to the tractor when I park it. I do it when I raise the hook and use the battery disconnect to isolate the battery, so I have the hood open anyways.
Something like this...





General PDP Template







www.canadiantire.ca


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Actually the 4 that I have are "Coleman" Brand!!


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

I'll get the usual negative feedback from posting this, but the results can be confirmed with a VDOM. We were having cold starting issues with a fleet of 120 Mack trash trucks and I was the lead mechanic. We asked for help from Delco-Remy. They sent a 75 year old electrical engineer in to help. He had me bring the hardest starting truck into the shop to troubleshoot. First thing we did was a voltage drop test at the starter. Those Macks were running four 900A batteries in parallel at the time. Voltage drop on the ground side was over 1V. He said voltage drop on the ground side was the 1# problem he saw that led to cold weather starting problems.

Macks ran the OEM battery ground circuit from the battery box directly to the truck frame right behind the battery box through about an 18" battery cable. He had me make/route a new 8' battery ground cable out of 4/0 welding cable directly to the starter mounting bolts. I had my doubts, but......

Results were almost zero voltage drop with the starter cranking and never had another problem starting with that truck again regardless of temperature. Ended up buying several 100 feet of 4/0 welding cable and a dozen boxes of cable lugs. Converted the whole fleet to ground at the starter mounting bolts. Also ran same welding cable ground wiring set up from the alternator bracket to the starter mounting bolts. Cold starting problems went away, starter failures went away, alternator failures went away. Amazing difference in alternator performance also when you consider the number of lights that are running on a typical trash truck

OEMs use a frame ground as a way of reducing production cost, it's not the ideal design for starter/alternator performance, especially in cold weather. With a single 700CCA battery on an ag tractor, 2/0 welding cable will work fine. It runs about $4 per foot, battery lugs are about $.50 each. A 4', 2/0, ground cable running directly from the battery to the starter mounting bolts will run you around $20 and you'll be amazed at the difference in cold weather starting performance......


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

I've been having issues with my '48 Cockshutt. Cables were old, frayed and corroded. I replaced them with the biggest cables I could find at my local auto supply chain. Not big enough I'm afraid, tractor won't start but the new cables are much prettier. I think I may have to find some of that welding cable or such and try the bigger wire... the tractor is 6 volt.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

pogobill said:


> I've been having issues with my '48 Cockshutt. Cables were old, frayed and corroded. I replaced them with the biggest cables I could find at my local auto supply chain. Not big enough I'm afraid, tractor won't start but the new cables are much prettier. I think I may have to find some of that welding cable or such and try the bigger wire... the tractor is 6 volt.


Try a welding supply shop to get it by the foot.... Consider all the problems we hear about on this Forum that are the result of poor battery cable performance and that's even in the Summer. Now factor in the compounding voltage drop that results in battery performance at -10 and welding cable battery leads start to make a lot of sense in relation to cold weather starting problems .


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

When I replaced the starter on my IH 574 this winter I ran a new cable for power and a ground cable to a starter mount bolt,
I used 00 cables. 
Between a new gear reduction starter, a new battery and new cables she starts better then new, as it should.
Battery $180, starter $150 Ebay starter, around $20 each for the battery cables so roughly $370.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

This is were I got my starter cables from they weren't the cheapest but they were reasonable and the easy ability to order any desired length, and ends,
was worth it.
2/0 Gauge Battery Cables - Custom Made 00 AWG Battery Cables


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

LouNY said:


> This is were I got my starter cables from they weren't the cheapest but they were reasonable and the easy ability to order any desired length, and ends,
> was worth it.
> 2/0 Gauge Battery Cables - Custom Made 00 AWG Battery Cables


Had starter failure problems on a fleet of about 400 Frito-Lay route vans running 6.5 GM diesels 20:1 compression ratio, starting 40-50 times per day. Ate the standard GM starters every 90 days. Changed to Nippon Denso gear reduction starters, starter failures became 3-4 years. Firm believer in gear reduction starters......


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

LouNY said:


> When I replaced the starter on my IH 574 this winter I ran a new cable for power and a ground cable to a starter mount bolt,
> I used 00 cables.
> Between a new gear reduction starter, a new battery and new cables she starts better then new, as it should.
> Battery $180, starter $150 Ebay starter, around $20 each for the battery cables so roughly $370.


I like using neoprene covered heavy duty stranded welding cable and Tweco ends myself. I'll crimp them and solder them as well.

Got to replace the positive cable on the open station M9 I bought used 2 years ago. Previous owner cut the OEM end off and buggered up the cable. I'm just gonna replace the entire cable with an OEM one. Ground side is fine.


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## rtsdad (11 mo ago)

If you have 15w40 goo in the crankcase, change to 10w30 or even 10w40 and it'll crank 60-80% faster.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Interesting description of 15-40. Not goo at all. It's lubricant. Far as cranking 60-80% faster with 5-40 or another base viscosity weight oil in the crankcase. that is all conjecture. Lots of other factors involved like how charged the starting battery is, how viable it is, how clean the connections are, in what condition the engine itself and the start is among other factors. Oil is just one small part of the equation, not the end cure.

With my tractors, in reality, with proper pre heat (and my diesel pickup truck as well), they rarely crank over more than one revolution anyway and none are plugged in as I don't have electricity in my big barn and it get's cold here as in below zero regularly. I keep my starting systems well maintained and quality starting batteries that I change out at least every 3 years.

Started the cab tractor yesterday to finish clearing the snowfall. It was 12 above zero (f) when I went to the barn. Pre heated the glow plugs for 15 seconds and it cranked over at most one revolution and popped off. These aren't new tractors either. Both have thousands of meter hours on them (2002 and 2004), but they are maintained properly and I have 15-40 Rotella T6 in the one I ran yesterday. The other has 5-40 T6 in it and I don't see much difference if any in the way they start cold other than it takes a few seconds more for the one with the 15-40 to build enough oil pressure to extinguish the oil pressure light.

Once they start, I leave them at an elevated idle until the temp gauge starts to move off cold but that is more for the transmission and hydraulic fluid than anything else. Besides, it's bad to work a stone cold engine, gasoline or diesel.


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

rtsdad said:


> If you have 15w40 goo in the crankcase, change to 10w30 or even 10w40 and it'll crank 60-80% faster.


Do you have any FACTS to back up 10W oil allows engine to start 60-80% faster than15 W oil?


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> Do you have any FACTS to back up 10W oil allows engine to start 60-80% faster than15 W oil?


The difference apparently kicks in at about -15 and at that temp, whatever the reason/job I'm trying to start something, can wait until tomorrow


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I might add that if the oil level is at the correct level, the crankshaft isn't submerged in it anyway so if it's thick, (as in 15-40 versus say 5-40 or some other weight, the is no resistance of the oil impeding the rotation of the crankshaft anyway. Of course that apply to small engines where the crankshaft has an oil slinger (paddle) attached to it to distribute the oil (splash lubrication) so when they are cold, there is resistance.

Modern multi grade oils are designed to cold flow better but provide adequate lubrication when hot as well.

And when an engine isn't running they provide a 'boundary layer' of oil on critical moving parts anyway.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Tx Jim said:


> Do you have any FACTS to back up 10W oil allows engine to start 60-80% faster than15 W oil?


Sounds to me like a typical 'seat of the pants' opinion not based in fact but rather opinion.

I read a lot of comments on here about engines not starting and it all distills down to proper maintenance. An engine is like your own body. If you don't take care of it properly, it will let you down when you need it most.

With my units, the only difference between 70 degrees and 0 degrees is the duration of pre heat (my glow plugs are manual) and the length of time I allow the engines and transmissions to warm up. They (tractors don't know the difference in 0 and 70 ambient).


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## rtsdad (11 mo ago)

You can calculate the relative cranking speeds from the viscosities of its oil at cranking temperature. They've determined in the lab that cranking speed is proportional to the square root of viscosity. I did these types of calculations of oil viscosities for 31 years as a chemical engineer in the lube oil industry.

I've never ever let a diesel engine sit and warm up (well until just recently with the new tractor, messing around with it). Start it and work it. Had diesel cars (two went for 200k miles) for about 40 years and tractors now for 17 and a diesel generator driver for 10 this year. The diesel generator driver certainly has to work RIGHT NOW after starting. I would never ever put 15w40 goo into it. Right now it has 5w30 Castrol for VW TDIs in it, but I have the 10 year change to M1 0w30 ESP (C3 rated) for later this year.

Bet your overhead valves are smoking underneath the valve cover while you're sitting there waiting for the red oil pressure light to go out. Once saw this on anything but 0wxx oil through a transparent overhead valve cover on an engine starting at -40 C/F.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

rtsdad said:


> You can calculate the relative cranking speeds from the viscosities of its oil at cranking temperature. They've determined in the lab that cranking speed is proportional to the square root of viscosity. I did these types of calculations of oil viscosities for 31 years as a chemical engineer in the lube oil industry.
> 
> I've never ever let a diesel engine sit and warm up (well until just recently with the new tractor, messing around with it). Start it and work it. Had diesel cars (two went for 200k miles) for about 40 years and tractors now for 17 and a diesel generator driver for 10 this year. The diesel generator driver certainly has to work RIGHT NOW after starting. I would never ever put 15w40 goo into it. Right now it has 5w30 Castrol for VW TDIs in it, but I have the 10 year change to M1 0w30 ESP (C3 rated) for later this year.
> 
> Bet your overhead valves are smoking underneath the valve cover while you're sitting there waiting for the red oil pressure light to go out. Once saw this on anything but 0wxx oil through a transparent overhead valve cover on an engine starting at -40 C/F.


I ain't even leaving the house at -40, much less trying to start a diesel engine, been there/done that. Once had to start a D9 at -49 at a ski area in Colorado. Took 2 days and I sure as hell didn't see any chemical engineers standing around watching, or helping


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

rtsdad said:


> You can calculate the relative cranking speeds from the viscosities of its oil at cranking temperature. They've determined in the lab that cranking speed is proportional to the square root of viscosity. I did these types of calculations of oil viscosities for 31 years as a chemical engineer in the lube oil industry.
> 
> I've never ever let a diesel engine sit and warm up (well until just recently with the new tractor, messing around with it). Start it and work it. Had diesel cars (two went for 200k miles) for about 40 years and tractors now for 17 and a diesel generator driver for 10 this year. The diesel generator driver certainly has to work RIGHT NOW after starting. I would never ever put 15w40 goo into it. Right now it has 5w30 Castrol for VW TDIs in it, but I have the 10 year change to M1 0w30 ESP (C3 rated) for later this year.
> 
> Bet your overhead valves are smoking underneath the valve cover while you're sitting there waiting for the red oil pressure light to go out. Once saw this on anything but 0wxx oil through a transparent overhead valve cover on an engine starting at -40 C/F.


Your tractor, your dime. I don't agree with anything you posted anyway. I will say that at 6000 hours on my one tractor, I had it in the shop for a valve adjustment and injector pop test and I was there when the mechanic pulled the valve cover and the overhead was factory clean and blowby on the inside of the valve cover either. In fact, neither of them ever produce any road draft tube slobber.,

if you don't allow an engine to warm up a bit when really cold, the thermal stability it requires but don't get, promotes accelerated wear and far as generators are concerned, this farm has a 30KW John Deer fired genset as backup power and it will automatically start and run for 45 seconds before assuming the load so the motor has at least some time to warm up. Run duration is settable but I've left it at 45 seconds which, is, the minimum time.

I consider your first post total phooey and strictly an opinion on your part.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

I run T6 5W-40 year round in my tractors and when I had it my diesel pickup.
And yes an engine with 5W oil will crank over easier. I have broke oil pump drives and seen others that broke from being started in cold weather
and being goosed while still cold. As far as facts it is the viscosity pure and simple.
And as far as a diesel generator going right to full load a good one will have an electric heater in the oil and a really good one will have
an electric pre and after lube pump in that starting and shut down circuit.
Even my old IH 574 has T6 5W-40 in her with an unknown 1000's of hours, I replaced a broken hour meter when I bought her 20 years ago
and now it has over 4000 hours on the "new" one.

And just a note that oil temp chart is in Celsius,
so -15C is +5F, -25C is -13F.
My poor tractors get started at below 0F frequently, unfortunately.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

LouNY said:


> And as far as a diesel generator going right to full load a good one will have an electric heater in the oil and a really good one will have
> an electric pre and after lube pump in that starting and shut down circuit.


My Deere has a fulltime on board block heater thermostatically controlled. When the ambient is below 35 (I think), it's on and keeps the engine warm. I don't believe it has a pre lube pump, but it may. Never had to do anything but routine maintenance on it and it's totally enclosed anyway.... and yes, it has 15-40T6 in the crankcase.

You comment reminded me of an interesting encounter I had many years ago. Way back I drove a double bunk cab over Kenworth with a 1693 Cat in it and back then only Ohio Cat worked on it. I was at their Independence, Ohio facility one afternoon and in the yard was a huge Caterpillar genset on an equally large trailer and I was checking it out and one of the mechanics came over and asked me if I wanted to hear it run, who am I do say no... So he gets up on the side of the unit, flips a couple switches and climbs back down, nothing happens for about 30 seconds and then all of a sudden it starts up and not at an idle either. Went immediately to rated (1800 rpm). You talk about a huge plume of black smoke and noise, there it was. I was impressed but then I've always been a Caterpillar engine nut. he ran it for a couple minutes and went back up, flipped a couple switches to shut it down. I asked him about why it didn't start immediately or shut down instantly and he told me it had an external lube pump that pressurized the oil galleys and check the block temp before it would start and below a certain pre set temp, the block heaters were always running and the engine had to reach a pre set shut down temperature before it would shut down. I think it was either a V12 or a V16 if I remember correctly but it was huge compared to my 1693. Have no idea of the rated power but I'm confident it was in the thousands.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

rtsdad said:


> I've never ever let a diesel engine sit and warm up (well until just recently with the new tractor, messing around with it). Start it and work it. Had diesel cars (two went for 200k miles) for about 40 years and tractors now for 17 and a diesel generator driver for 10 this year. The diesel generator driver certainly has to work RIGHT NOW after starting. I would never ever put 15w40 goo into it. Right now it has 5w30 Castrol for VW TDIs in it, but I have the 10 year change to M1 0w30 ESP (C3 rated) for later this year.



Then you have been damn lucky to have this type of luck..............No diesel engine manufacture that I have ever dealt with will say that it is fine or a good idea to work a diesel hard cold.........Detroit Diesel and Volvo both, right now, state in their warranty's that operating their on road diesel engines with the oil temp. under 130 degrees will void the warranty.......And, by the way, I run 15w40 in my DD15 over the road engine as per the manufacture specs.........Your thoughts might work with the little diesel car motors but not worth a damn on the big, real, diesel engines.......


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Your tractor, your dime. I don't agree with anything you posted anyway. I will say that at 6000 hours on my one tractor, I had it in the shop for a valve adjustment and injector pop test and I was there when the mechanic pulled the valve cover and the overhead was factory clean and blowby on the inside of the valve cover either. In fact, neither of them ever produce any road draft tube slobber.,
> 
> if you don't allow an engine to warm up a bit when really cold, the thermal stability it requires but don't get, promotes accelerated wear and far as generators are concerned, this farm has a 30KW John Deer fired genset as backup power and it will automatically start and run for 45 seconds before assuming the load so the motor has at least some time to warm up. Run duration is settable but I've left it at 45 seconds which, is, the minimum time.
> 
> I consider your first post total phooey and strictly an opinion on your part.



My GOD....This guy must be way off if I agree 100% with what sidecar says about his post.................LOL..........Just ribbing ya on the last part but not on the agree with ya part......


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## rtsdad (11 mo ago)

Bob Driver said:


> The difference apparently kicks in at about -15 and at that temp, whatever the reason/job I'm trying to start something, can wait until tomorrow
> 
> View attachment 77153


Any engine oil operates against a coolant temperature set by thermostat, usually about 190 F. This is far above those outside temperatures in this chart. So, that 20w oil good for -10 C is also good for above 190 F.

Think those upper temperature values are for air cooled engines.


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## rtsdad (11 mo ago)

Tx Jim said:


> Do you have any FACTS to back up 10W oil allows engine to start 60-80% faster than15 W oil?


They've determined in lab/bench tests that cranking speed is proportional to the square root of oil viscosity at cranking speed. So, knowing that the log (or log log; don't remember; would have to check my computer code) lube oil viscosity is a straight line plotted against 1/T (absolute temperature), then one can calculate the average cranking viscosity using the average of the 40 and 100 C lube oil specs. 

The same way, one can calculate that that 15w40 goo turns to water at higher temps vs. even a 10w40 one because its log(vis) vs. 1/T line is so much steeper.


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

rtsdad
A lot of muddy water has run under the bridge since I studied Algebra back in high school & college so could you PLEASE provide a equation with the blanks filled in proving you statement that an engine with 10W-40 oil will start operating ""60-80% FASTER"" than an engine with 15W-40 at same ambient temps for both oils?
Thank you, Jim


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## rtsdad (11 mo ago)

Tx Jim said:


> rtsdad
> A lot of muddy water has run under the bridge since I studied Algebra back in high school & college so could you PLEASE provide a equation with the blanks filled in proving you statement that an engine with 10W-40 oil will start operating ""60-80% FASTER"" than an engine with 15W-40 at same ambient temps for both oils?
> Thank you, Jim


Lot more complicated. Have visual basic subroutines that compute the 3rd viscosity from any two known viscosities.

Here's some code, but some other functions are called from it. Most use ASTM equations.

Once you compute the cranking viscosity for any oil, you then have to ratio them by the square root to get the relative cranking speeds.

Function third_cs#(ByVal Vis1#, ByVal TempF1#, ByVal Vis2#, ByVal TempF2#, ByVal TempF3#)
' ****** THIRD_CS ****
' Function for obtaining a third Centistoke viscosity, given two
' input values and temperatures.
' input: centistoke viscosity
' temperature measured at, F
' centistoke viscosity
' temperature measured at, F
' 3rd temperature measurement desired, F
' returns: 3rd Centistoke viscosity
' Date: April 30, 1990 Author: Ralph R. Hall
' RevDate: 14 Sep 94 Author: Ralph R. Hall
' The ASTM equation is log log(cs+.7)=a+b log(t), the logs are
' base 10. The .7 constant is not .7 at low cs values.
' The revision was included based on pg. 139 of the ASMTM
' manual, giving the equation in D 341 for going below 2
' Cs viscosity.
' *****
' TEMPERATURES MUST BE DEGREES F
Dim dAcon#, dBcon#, dVm3#

If Vis1 > Vis2 And TempF1 > TempF2 Then
third_cs = FNULL
ElseIf TempF1 = TempF2 Then
third_cs = Vis2
ElseIf TempF3 = TempF1 Then
third_cs = Vis1
ElseIf TempF3 = TempF2 Then
third_cs = Vis2
Else
Call astm_d341_cons(Vis1, TempF1, Vis2, TempF2, dAcon, dBcon)
dVm3 = dAcon + dBcon * log10(TempF3 + TRF)
third_cs = astm_d341_vm(dVm3, False)
End If
End Function


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

rtsdad said:


> They've determined in lab/bench tests that cranking speed is proportional to the square root of oil viscosity at cranking speed. So, knowing that the log (or log log; don't remember; would have to check my computer code) lube oil viscosity is a straight line plotted against 1/T (absolute temperature), then one can calculate the average cranking viscosity using the average of the 40 and 100 C lube oil specs.
> 
> The same way, one can calculate that that 15w40 goo turns to water at higher temps vs. even a 10w40 one because its log(vis) vs. 1/T line is so much steeper.


Any mechanic that has had to routinely start diesel engines at -20F, knows cranking speed is going to be a problem. It's when the diesel fuel in the tank/filters has a consistency somewhere between molasses and jello that really makes the morning startup interesting. No glow plugs, no block heater, -20F, at 11,000 ft ASL..... Typical morning working as a ski area mechanic in Colorado in the late 70's. Got any calculations on your computer comparing how long that job should take and how long before frost bite/hypothermia sets in? I'm damn sure I crossed that threshold on several occasions


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

rtsdad said:


> Lot more complicated. Have visual basic subroutines that compute the 3rd viscosity from any two known viscosities.
> 
> Here's some code, but some other functions are called from it. Most use ASTM equations.
> 
> ...


NOW ALL THAT JIBBERISH IS CLEAR AS MUD!!!!


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> NOW ALL THAT JIBBERISH IS CLEAR AS MUD!!!!


Here's my cold weather starting "calculations" now that I'm retired...... 1) Hook up a battery booster. 2) Grab a big can of ether 3) Apply both until it either starts, or I can't feel my toes anymore. 

If it don't start, I go back in the house to brew a pot of coffee and break out the Bulleit bourbon rather than creamer.... Tomorrow is another day


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

I realize starting fluid has it's place if utilized as designed. Over my 21 yrs of employment at a tractor dealership serving over half of those yrs as a service momager I've witnessed a lot starter fluid use abuse. Then in my last 30 yrs of custom farming I witnessed more starter fluid abuse helping my neighbors get engines to start operating. I shuddered last yr watching my neighbor spray starting fluid into an open air cleaner housing to keep engine running instead of correctly bleeding air out of fuel system.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> I realize starting fluid has it's place if utilized as designed. Over my 21 yrs of employment at a tractor dealership serving over half of those yrs as a service momager I've witnessed a lot starter fluid use abuse. Then in my last 30 yrs of custom farming I witnessed more starter fluid abuse helping my neighbors get engines to start operating. I shuddered last yr watching my neighbor spray starting fluid into an open air cleaner housing to keep engine running instead of correctly bleeding air out of fuel system.


Closing in on 60 years as a professional mechanic, I've used ether once, or twice, before..... I've got it down to where I don't even put anaerobic gasket sealer on like I'm icing a cake, or use a 900ft lbs air impact to set tapered wheel bearing preloads, but I still firmly believe a BFH is sometimes the quickest answer to meet the SRT on some repair jobs...


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Only thing I use my 1300 foot pound Thor 1/2" drive impact for is loosening, never tightening. What I have a Snap on and Icon Torque wrenches for. Worse thing you can do to aluminum wheels is use an impact wrench to tighten lug nuts.


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## rtsdad (11 mo ago)

Don't know how a torque wrench comment got into this thread.

Get rid of that 15w40 goo in your crankcases. 10w30 with be much better and will operate at any outside temperature since it is operating, even in winter, against 190 F coolant temperature set by your thermostat. If in really cold places, use 0w30. I use it mainly because I know it will be pure PAO source M1 and not a Group III oil blended in.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

We changed up to torque wrenches because your thread is wacky.


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

rtsdad said:


> Don't know how a torque wrench comment got into this thread.
> 
> Get rid of that 15w40 goo in your crankcases. 10w30 with be much better and will operate at any outside temperature since it is operating, even in winter, against 190 F coolant temperature set by your thermostat. If in really cold places, use 0w30. I use it mainly because I know it will be pure PAO source M1 and not a Group III oil blended in.


Torque wrench became involved in this thread similar to your mentioning 190°F coolant temperatures that has ZERO/NADA to do with ability/inability to start an engine due to ""sub-freezing temperatures""!! I guess you're going to keep changing subject matter rather than """filling in the blanks on your equation""' proving or disproving your  60-80% faster cranking speed from utilizing 10W vs 15W oil


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

It's my contention that automotive manufacturers went to lighter (initial viscosity) motor oil because of it's cold flowability and the complex valve actuation mechanisms in modern auto's today. Variable valve timing requires the use of better cold flow of lubricant to actuate the various mechanical and electronic servo's that control the timing plus a lower initial viscosity improves cold weather crank speed which gasoline engines require more than a diesel, especially when the combustion chamber has a pre heat device (glow plug) or a manifold pre heater installed.

I don't consider 15-40 or straight weight oil to be goo, and never will. I find that term flies in the face of what is correct. I really care much what the op puts in his crankcase, far as I'm concerned he could run 90 weight gear oil. To me, the term 'goo' applies to chassis grease, not motor oil. Very bad choice of words.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> Torque wrench became involved in this thread similar to your mentioning 190°F coolant temperatures that has ZERO/NADA to do with ability/inability to start an engine due to ""sub-freezing temperatures""!! I guess you're going to keep changing subject matter rather than """filling in the blanks on your equation""' proving or disproving your 60-80% faster cranking speed from utilizing 10W vs 15W oil


The guys not completely FOS.... Detroit has been going with FA-4 10w30 as the factory fill oil since early 2017. Supposedly, 1%-2% better fuel economy and a 75,000 mile drain interval in “Efficient Long-Haul” OTR applications. That's huge $$$ for the big line haul fleets, but probably doesn't do a whole lot for a guy just trying to start his Ag tractor, to plow snow, at -10

DDA FA-4 Factory Fill Oil


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

Bob
Maybe rtsdad is correct BUT just because I asked for FACTS that the next lighter weight engine oil causes engine to start 60%-80% faster & he supplies no real facts BUT instead supplies a SMOKE SCREEN MAKES ME WONDER.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

You know how forums are. Just opinions without documentation. Why I take 99% of them at face value. IOW, nothing changes here. Been doing what I do for years with no adverse issues.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> Bob
> Maybe rtsdad is correct BUT just because I asked for FACTS that the next lighter weight engine oil causes engine to start 60%-80% faster & he supplies no real facts BUT instead supplies a SMOKE SCREEN MAKES ME WONDER.


I can't give you "facts" per say but.
My Branson 8050 with the power shuttle trans would not start in below zero F temps.
The starter would crank the engine over about a half of a revolution and just stop, booster packs, jumpers all made no difference.
The only way that tractor would start on below0F days was to put the salamander heater right up behind it with a tarp on the hood going to the ground 
as a tent. After an hour she would start fine.

I did two things at once so who is to say which was the most important.
I removed the factory hydraulic/transmission fluid and filled it with Cen-Pe-Co multi purpose fluid.
I drained the engine oil and replaced it with T6 5W-40. After these changes she started fine the oil pressure light goes out quicker.
This was 6 years ago and to this day she is running on those types and brands of fluids.
It cranks over much easier and faster and has done so since they were installed.
I also use the T6 5W-40 in my IH574, and Kubota F2000, and even in my small engines.
I also used it in my RAM Eco-Diesel PU.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> Bob
> Maybe rtsdad is correct BUT just because I asked for FACTS that the next lighter weight engine oil causes engine to start 60%-80% faster & he supplies no real facts BUT instead supplies a SMOKE SCREEN MAKES ME WONDER.


Understand your point and you see it all the time on this forum.... I call it a "Baffle 'em with BS" post. I learned a long time ago that Engineers will head down that path when they feel their expensive diploma is being challenged, it's just human nature. FA-4 is backwards compatible to EPA 2010 engines, but that doesn't mean anything to most of the guys on here that are actually running older engines. With only 10 post to this forum, he's not "reading the crowd" yet. I pay more attention to the lawn mower section where there are far more questions/problems about mid-90's engines, rather than late model water-cooled EFI engines. I just join in the discussions about OIL for entertainment, because I know there is about to be a whole lot of BS flying around until Pogo Bill breaks it up and I wouldn't want to disappoint him by not being in the crowd.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

Tx Jim said:


> I realize starting fluid has it's place if utilized as designed. Over my 21 yrs of employment at a tractor dealership serving over half of those yrs as a service momager I've witnessed a lot starter fluid use abuse. Then in my last 30 yrs of custom farming I witnessed more starter fluid abuse helping my neighbors get engines to start operating. I shuddered last yr watching my neighbor spray starting fluid into an open air cleaner housing to keep engine running instead of correctly bleeding air out of fuel system.


Ether should never be used on a diesel with glow plugs unless you have a way to disable them...........


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

rtsdad said:


> Don't know how a torque wrench comment got into this thread.
> 
> Get rid of that 15w40 goo in your crankcases. 10w30 with be much better and will operate at any outside temperature since it is operating, even in winter, against 190 F coolant temperature set by your thermostat. If in really cold places, use 0w30. I use it mainly because I know it will be pure PAO source M1 and not a Group III oil blended in.



Then knock yourself out, Junior..............I will keep using my "goo" like I have for years in my over the road semi and my tractors..............


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