# Price dumping on small engines



## andyvh1959 (Jul 1, 2015)

Found this on Diesel Progress News, a diesel engine trade magazine: 

https://dieselprogress.com/u-s-says...News+Network+-+20th+October+2020&utm_term=DNN

I know this borders on politics on the forum. But I think the information is relative to the forum so people understand how it is some small engines are so low priced compared to American made alternatives. Even if the choices to buy American made small engines is very limited.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

I try to avoid anything with motor from China. China is not an economy I want to support. Plus, anything I’ve bought that has a made in China motor has had problems. 

China engages in unfair trade practices. Dumping in our market weakens manufacturers here until they disappear, then China dominates the market, and raises prices. 

Same thing happened when Home Depot came to Canada. Great prices and selection, wiped out all the small hardware stores, then prices sharply rose in the absence of competition and selection diminished.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

andyvh1959 said:


> Found this on Diesel Progress News, a diesel engine trade magazine:
> 
> https://dieselprogress.com/u-s-says...News+Network+-+20th+October+2020&utm_term=DNN
> 
> I know this borders on politics on the forum. But I think the information is relative to the forum so people understand how it is some small engines are so low priced compared to American made alternatives. Even if the choices to buy American made small engines is very limited.


Andy, 

Thanks! I'm also a member of the gen-set forums for power generators. The China made ones will not last long. Loud like the dickens too. Smart people avoid them due to low quality. A few of those member warehouse stores carry a brand that folks need to just ignore and run away from. 

China right now is very desperate to unload inventory of factory bloatness. And they have/had already stopped producing many things that are not moving in the supply chain. 

Then there are issues with American products too. They have to compete with imports. Thus, they leaned out product durability and cheapened the materials too. So, nobody is really giving a good product anymore unless you end up buying a higher model from an American company. 

As a consumer, we are the ones who get shafted in the final deal. Politics or not.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

sounds like they are basically talking the Harbor Freight Predator brand and other Chondas.

I try not to send my dollars to China if there is any other option, both for political issues and for the fact that Chinese society does not seem to give a cap about making anything that lasts. I would never buy Chinese heavy equipment for much more than scrap prices even if the politics weren't an issue.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Groo said:


> sounds like they are basically talking the Harbor Freight Predator brand and other Chondas.


Sadly, the Harbor Freight Predator engines are more durable than the Kohler Courage engines.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

bmaverick said:


> Sadly, the Harbor Freight Predator engines are more durable than the Kohler Courage engines.


well, they are copying the Hondas at an individual part replacement level, and Honda does care more about longevity than does Kohler.
I trust the original over the Chonda.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Went down to the local HF to pick up a 6.5 Predator to stick on a customers tiller. They were out. What the hell.... ordered it on-line. Ordered it last week of July, it showed up the middle of September. Covid must have kicked their butts as far as production also. It's either that, or the boat sank on the way over here

*"99cc to 225cc vertical shaft engines"* would basically be push mowers, and power washer engines. 205cc is what used to be 5HP. Kohler doesn't even try to compete in that market segment anymore. About the only model that size they currently produce is the XT800. Briggs on the other hand is pretty heavy into that market segment, at least before they filed chapter 11. They offer 3-4 different model engines that size and all retail for less $120. The 450e series retails for less than $100. That engine is around $60 wholesale through their Distributors.....


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Groo said:


> well, they are copying the Hondas at an individual part replacement level, and Honda does care more about longevity than does Kohler.
> I trust the original over the Chonda.


Huh.... Don't recall seeing a Honda engine on a 2,000 hour Scag, Exmark, or Gravely commercial machine lately. I have seen plenty of 2,000 hour Kohler Command Pros though..... But then the only V-twin Honda makes that would even fit on a commercial z-turn is that puny-assed GXV690 and then they build it with a 1 1/8" x 4" crank, so it isn't even a good option for a replacement engine without "shimming" the hell out of the drive pulley and clutch to get them to line up. Then on top of that the geniuses put a 17 amp alternator on it. That works GREAT with an electric PTO!!!!! No wonder they got out of the lawn mower business.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> Huh.... Don't recall seeing a Honda engine on a 2,000 hour Scag, Exmark, or Gravely commercial machine lately. I have seen plenty of 2,000 hour Kohler Command Pros though..... But then the only V-twin Honda makes that would even fit on a commercial z-turn is that puny-assed GXV690 and then they build it with a 1 1/8" x 4" crank, so it isn't even a good option for a replacement engine without "shimming" the hell out of the drive pulley and clutch to get them to line up. Then on top of that the geniuses put a 17 amp alternator on it. That works GREAT with an electric PTO!!!!! No wonder they got out of the lawn mower business.


Not the class of engine in the discussion


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Groo said:


> Not the class of engine in the discussion


OK, I'll give it another shot..... What real difference does Honda "longevity" mean on a machine with a less than 5HP vertical engine (this class) and cost $400 when the cheapest vertical replacement engine in that class Honda sells is $200? I can buy a 5HP Briggs vertical replacement engine for either a push mower, or pressure washer for $60 wholesale, so I could blow up 3 of them and still be ahead of the price of 1 Honda replacement engine. I've got 1/2 dozen Honda GXV160 powered pressure washers out back of the shop. Engines run fine, pumps are shot, so that turns that Honda "Longevity" into a boat anchor that can make an exhaust noise


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> OK, I'll give it another shot..... What real difference does Honda "longevity" mean on a machine with a less than 5HP vertical engine (this class) and cost $400 when the cheapest vertical replacement engine in that class Honda sells is $200? I can buy a 5HP Briggs vertical replacement engine for either a push mower, or pressure washer for $60 wholesale, so I could blow up 3 of them and still be ahead of the price of 1 Honda replacement engine. I've got 1/2 dozen Honda vertical powered pressure washers out back of the shop. Engines run fine, pumps are shot, so that turns that Honda "Longevity" into a boat anchor that can make noise


sounds like you should be able to repower plenty garbage lawn mowers with all those pressure washer engines with crap pumps.

ps. I guess selling $60 vertical shaft small engines isn't sustainable or Briggs wouldn't be bankrupt.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

So you just indicated you are basically not aware of the games Honda deliberately plays with the input shafts on their pressure washer engines to make them really difficult, if not impossible, to mount on any push mower. So you may not also understand that Brigg's bankruptcy was primarily driven by their long-term UAW defined pension debt and not really anything to do with their engine quality.

That $60 "unsustainable" vertical engine is what allows Briggs to corner the market on the 75,000 $160 push mowers that are sold at the Big Box stores every Spring, while the cheapest Honda push mower goes for close to $500.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Groo said:


> ... should be able to repower plenty garbage lawn mowers with all those pressure washer engines with crap pumps.


SOOOOO TRUE ! 

Those crappy pumps and CHEAP pump castings that CRACK. Amazon.com has a field day selling those spare parts to the highest bidder. 

AND, why oh why are these cheap gas engines on these power washers??? Get water splashed on top of the engine and it will not run next time. WHY? The head and coil gets all rusty crusty !!!! 

I got so fed up with the mower engine arrangement on these pressure washers that I went totally electric. Cheaper on the electric bill than paying the price at the pump. And no more real engine maintenance. The noise dBa is much less too. There isn't much different between an 1800psi to 2400psi pressure washer anyhow. It's all in the nozzle technology pattern.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> So you just indicated you are basically not aware of the games Honda deliberately plays with the input shafts on their pressure washer engines to make them really difficult, if not impossible, to mount on any push mower. So you may not also understand that Brigg's bankruptcy was primarily driven by their long-term UAW defined pension debt and not really anything to do with their engine quality.
> 
> That $60 "unsustainable" vertical engine is what allows Briggs to corner the market on the 75,000 $160 push mowers that are sold at the Big Box stores every Spring, while the cheapest Honda push mower goes for close to $500.


no. I'm not away of the output shaft games. I see that Honda offers 5 different output shafts on their vertical engines. At first glance, none of them look impossible to mount a mower blade onto. which version is the one you have a problem with them using?


eta; my crap powerwasher that never gets used has a Yamaha engine. I paid about $140 from one of those outlet tool places.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

GCV160/190-N5B are their most common pressure washer engines. Both have...... 2" long crank, heavy flywheel (unique to pressure washers), and the crank end isn't tapped. At first glance.....

1) Cranks to short and the blade will rub the housing
2) Heavy flywheel takes away the governor response you need for mowing
3) What a PITA to drill and tap the crank end

http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/GCV160-N5B.html

Pay close attention to what it says at the bottom in Notes & Warnings.....


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> GCV160/190-N5B are their most common pressure washer engines. Both have...... 2" long crank, heavy flywheel (unique to pressure washers), and the crank end isn't tapped. At first glance.....
> 
> 1) Cranks to short and the blade will rub the housing
> 2) Heavy flywheel takes away the governor response you need for mowing
> ...


so probably the N5 https://engines.honda.com/models/model-detail/gc-vertical#Dimensions

seams like you could weld a stud into the centering hole easier than drilling and tapping, then use something like one of these;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Arnold-MTD-Blade-Adapter-Kit-OEM-753-0588/124203323794?_trkparms=aid=555021&algo=PL.SIMRVI&ao=1&asc=20190711100440&meid=f514ae16f42a41c3af617d49d425297c&pid=100752&rk=3&rkt=13&mehot=co&sd=172178140773&itm=124203323794&pmt=1&noa=0&pg=2047675&algv=SimplRVIAMLv5WebWithPLRVIOnTopCombiner&_trksid=p2047675.c100752.m1982

I'm having a hard time understanding why a heavier flywheel would mess with the governor that significantly. I once stuck a second blade onto a mower. It still worked, but the engine had a harder time spinning it up to speed. That was a power problem, not a governor problem. I've also stuck significantly heavier blades on other mowers with no noticeable effect.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Yep... N5 is their common pressure washer engine. 

_"I'm having a hard time understanding why a heavier flywheel would mess with the governor that significantly"
_
So maybe it would help if you were to start by pondering why the boys that get paid big $$$ to figure out stuff at Honda and have all that test equipment decided to put much heavier flywheels on their pressure washer engines than they do on their push mower engines, unless they had studied such things in a test cell.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> Yep... N5 is their common pressure washer engine.
> 
> _"I'm having a hard time understanding why a heavier flywheel would mess with the governor that significantly"
> _
> So maybe it would help if you were to start by pondering why the boys that get paid big $$$ to figure out stuff at Honda and have all that test equipment decided to put much heavier flywheels on their pressure washer engines than they do on their push mower engines, unless they had studied such things in a test cell.


the flywheel cant make more difference than a heavy duty cutting blade. It is certainly going to be drastically less than when I stuck the second blade on that tired old mower.

A lawn mower governor is a pretty simple thing. when spinning slower than the set RPM, it opens the throttle. When spinning faster, it closes the throttle. I've seen two basic mechanical style. one has the a spring pulling on a plate that gets blown away by the cooling air from the engine fan. The other uses mechanical fly weights opposed by the spring. Spring tension is set with the engine speed adjuster. The second is what I normally see in mowers. A heavier fly wheel is just going to cause the engine throttle to oscillate further than if the flywheel effect was lighter. the wilder throttle settings will also have less effect. It is a simple feedback control system.

they put a heavier flywheel on a pressure washer because the crank isn't bolted to something that acts like a flywheel, and the engine needs a certain amount of effective flywheel weight. They don't put the heavy flywheel on all of them because the more pennies they can cut, the more money they can make.

eta; a heavier flywheel will help the blade get through tough stuff, but will take a bit longer to get back up to speed. it should wash out. If there is enough flywheel mass that it take twice as long to pick up 100rpm, it will slow down half as much when you hit something. net result, higher average speed and it takes just as long to get to the set speed.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

That's a pretty in-depth analysis.... Especially from a guy that I suspect didn't have a clue that Honda pressure washer engines come equipped with heavier flywheels than their push mower engines until this morning. 

I liked your in-depth explanation of an air-vane governor and a centrifugal governor. That matches exactly with the understanding I've had of how they both work for the last 50+ years. It puts my mind at ease to know that I've at least had that part right. 

I'm sure you already know that Briggs has gone back to using those air-vane controllers on the auto-coke system of some of their V-twin engines, but would you mind elaborating on that for me? Perhaps you could review their engineering also and let me know if you think they've got it right?


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Bob Driver said:


> That's a pretty in-depth analysis.... Especially from a guy that I suspect didn't have a clue that Honda pressure washer engines come equipped with heavier flywheels than their push mower engines until this morning.
> 
> I liked your in-depth explanation of an air-vane governor and a centrifugal governor. That matches exactly with the understanding I've had of how they both work for the last 50+ years. It puts my mind at ease to know that I've at least had that part right.
> 
> I'm sure you already know that Briggs has gone back to using those air-vane controllers on the auto-coke system of some of their V-twin engines, but would you mind elaborating on that for me? Perhaps you could review their engineering also and let me know if you think they've got it right?


Well ok governor know it all, you explain to me why a heavier flywheel is going to mess with governor operation. Your the one claiming it wont work. I've told you about my operation if lawn mowers with greater than factory rotating mass. Spell it out for me why the minuscule change of a rotational inertia will have more of an impact than does 50% heavier mower blades.
Just norm as l blade wear is going to have a vastly greater effect on rotational inertia than would a heavier flywheel, due to the diameters involved.
You are the one making the claim. Explain your reasoning. Maybe explain why a tractors mechanical governor doesn't go haywire when a brush hog is hooked up, where as only a Honda single cylinder engine would go crazy.
Explain it so even an idiot like myself can understand why flywheel mass is so vital to the governor operation of these 2 engines, but blade mass makes no detectable difference.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

I hope locking this thread has let cooler heads prevail. Let's move on.


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