# Persistent PTO seal leak.



## Ernie

Has anyone ever had seal problems for the PTO? I khave a 94 MF240 4x4 and ever since at about 4700 hrs this seal is being replaced every six months.. The tractor has about 13950 hrs now and seems no worse that it was 4 or yrs ago.. Just a pain.

By the way this unit is used exclusively for bush hogging.. Has been used this way since day one....

Another area of concern is the PS pump and outer ball joints.... 

If anyone has any suggestions on what is the probable cause would be greatly appreciated.. The PtO shaft is not worn and no burrs to eat the seal , everything seems to snug and within specs.


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## Rodster

Does the shaft have any side to side movement if you push it sideways ? Is is a single or double lip seal ? Does the lip that goes to the inside have a spring around it?
Rodster


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## Ingersoll444

I would guess that 1] as Rod is getting at, if there is any bearing slop that could cause it, and would keep getting worse and worse as time goes on. Or 2] the shaft has a bend in it. Not sure how the shaft is set up on that tractor, but if it just slides out like the old Fords, the next seal you replace get it sent out to see if there is any runout on it.


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## Ernie

I have very little side to side, maybe 15-20 thsnds.. End play is about 100 thsnds which is with in the specs... It is a single lip seal w/ spring on the inner side and incorporates a dust shield.. As stated before this machine is used strictly for bush hogging...We have checked for excess viberation of the hog and found that new blades cuered that and stilll it will wear that seal out 

Starting to think that it maybe the only real spot on the masseys armor........


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## Rodster

Is it possible to get the old seal out without distorting it? If you can does it still have drag on the shaft or is the lip damaged that you can see? Could it be possible that the leak is not the lip but the OD where it presses into the housing ? ( if this is the set up it uses). 
Rodster
PS..Just a far out shot but is your unit vented ? possible pressure bulid up.


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## parts man

Good point Rodster, if the vent is plugged it could damage the seal, but wouldn't pressure more likely just blow it right out of the seat?


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## Ernie

We will be pulling the seal next week and I will pull it myself to see if I can save it and maybe get a picture of it.

Thanks for all of the assistance... Will respond one way or another on the out come...


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## Rodster

Keep us posted. Sometimes it is not possible to get them out without bending them up. Do you lube the lip when you installed it? Easier to assemble and won't be dry on startup.
Rodster


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## Steve

I think you have a couple of good places to check from the above information. While the seal is out, since you have had to replace the seal so many times, I would check to make sure that both of the surfaces that the seal is seated against are true. I found with my transmission shaft that the plate was not true. My new seal is now sealed in place. Not a drip from it since. I would also try to check the shaft too. 

When you start pulling things apart can you tell if the spring on the back of the seal is still in place? 

Steve


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## Ernie

Well I will start hopefully tomorrow to get into the pto shaft seal... Asked our #1 mech if he ever replaced the o/ ring on the seal retaining plate and was given the deer in headlights look... I took it upon myself to order parts from massey... Seal and o/ring 40 bucks as compared to NAPA price of 15 bucks for seal and o/ring... NAPA parts are here just waiting on Massey parts on UPS today I hope...I really want to see if there is a big difference between the seals.. Will take pictures of the area before tear down and during the repair also..


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## parts man

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the Massey seal and NAPA seal were made by the same company!


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## Ernie

arts ma, you are probably right but I think our mech changed this seal and installed a single lip seal after talking to him.. I hope that there are no hidden problems as this unit is running 16 hrs a day to catch up on the bush hogging... Almost ready to start the cycle over for the spring.. It has been warm and still wet in the low spots in the fields.


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## Ernie

Well maybe the persistant pto leak may have gone the route that our trusty road mechanic shoud be....as in GONE long long GONE.. the problem ended up being the improper seal for the pto shaft.. as the pictures will indicate.. Just wish I was that mans boss.... but my boss everybodys boss will want me to explain why I personally did the repair and why out in the field if the unit was down....Well just maybe my influence on him may sway the pendulum to ousting this expense (mech) and seeing that the next one has his **** together.


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## Ernie

*a few pic's*

The first
<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74589">


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## Ernie

*Shuold be#1*

another

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74594">


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## Ernie

*next*

another

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74595">


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## Ernie

*yet another*

its the hefty one

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74596">


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## Ernie

*and another*

needed an oring

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74597">


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## Rodster

Glad you got it.
Rod


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## Ernie

messy messy

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74599">


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## Ernie

*ahh another*

Its in

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74600">
oops this one got thru


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## Ernie

*finally*

ready to rock and mow

<img src="http://www.tractorforum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=74601">


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## Ernie

Well now that the misery is over this job took a tad over 2 1/2 hrs which included running up to tractor supply to get universal tractor fluid to replenish what was run out this am and the pulling of the seal... I will keep my fingers crossed that the mech never touches another piece of equipment on our site again....


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## Ingersoll444

Good to see you found the problem. As a guy in the auto repair field, I see a LOT of cases where some people that are working on stuff, should NEVER hold a tool agean.


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## Ernie

Paul, you are so right... It seems that these people can get hired just on their own word.. :argh:


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## Argee

Looking at those pictures bro'....That kinda took me back:thumbsup:


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## Ernie

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> *Looking at those pictures bro'....That kinda took me back:thumbsup: *


Yeah I remember those days in northern Mich. Changing a clutch in a farmers field in - temps ooooooooh and in the spring thaw the mud. 

Really does bring back the that feeling of the clark days..... I really enjoyed this asof late I have working on pond slopes..so to get the hands greasy I relished it... ahh the smell of Go-Jo in the morning 

Kind of a unique way of working on the pto by backing it up the trailer ramps and sat my fat *** on the trailer bed... to many fire ants to work off the ground and as of 1 pm this afternoon it was not leaking or a weep seen. 

By the way Argee, just be glad that everything is up and running w/ no problems as down time means its gona cost somewhere


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## Argee

When I owned my Case tractors and did the tranny overhaul, it brought back the old feelings for pulling wrenches...I gave it up when I couldn't find my 7/8" offset:lmao:


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## jodyand

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *Good to see you found the problem. As a guy in the auto repair field, I see a LOT of cases where some people that are working on stuff, should NEVER hold a tool agean. *



Hey Paul you're not talking about sj are you:furious: :furious:


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## Ingersoll444

LOL Na not our buddy john. See he knows what he can, and can not do. These guys think they CAN fix stuff and cant. And the bad part is they get paid dam good to be butchers.


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## Ernie

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> *When I owned my Case tractors and did the tranny overhaul, it brought back the old feelings for pulling wrenches...I gave it up when I couldn't find my 7/8" offset:lmao: *



Why??? Why???? Iam out a $100 ele metal shear and have a worn out 7/8s in return......You make me feel bad :furious: and if you don,t believe me just ask yourself if you are missing anything else:lmao:


ps. also when you've had those shears as long as I had that 7/8s it kinda makes you even fonder of my 7/8s


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## Ernie

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *LOL These guys think they CAN fix stuff and cant. And the bad part is they get paid dam good to be butchers. *



I couldn't think of a better anolagy Paul. 

I see the problem in the hireing on the certifacation only.. hands on and common sense seems to be main thing missing in their repertoire.

I really believe these mechanics think that they are great wrenches and in reality they are just helpers and sometimes not very good there either....


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## Ingersoll444

I call them parts changers. Cant fix stuff, just keep tossing parts at it till its better.


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## Ernie

Oh so true...


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## Argee

> _Originally posted by Ernieg _
> *Why??? Why???? Iam out a $100 ele metal shear and have a worn out 7/8s in return......You make me feel bad :furious: and if you don,t believe me just ask yourself if you are missing anything else:lmao:
> 
> *


It's kinda amazing what guilt will do to peoples thinking:furious:


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## Ernie

No guilt just enjoying something of yours:lmao:


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## Michael

I wonder if parts changer knows how to read the shop manuals that he should of read when he installed the new seal. I wonder if the dude knows how to read. I never trust any mechanic to do things right but I found a A1 guy for my cars and he chased a klunk in the front end of my Plymouth for 2 hours one day and finally found the noise. Seems a year ago the car was in minor accident and I had the body work done and the frame had to be straightened well the frame guy loosen the right hand engine cradle bolts and forgot to tightened them. My mechainic just kept going on short test drives over a speed bump in back of his shop and kept hearing the clunk and he started to check all the frame bolts after asking me if the car was ever in a body shop for repairs. It took a little while but he got rid of the persisitant clunk on a ten year old car. Funny thing the car drives better now then when I bought the car new 11 years ago.


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## Ernie

Michael, you are so right on that line of thinking in todays work place... We are having a hard time finding compitent help in any field of development (land) that we are now experiencing over time for the first time since I started... The appitude of these so called certified what evers leaves alot to be desired.. As for our former mechanic I am sure wont learn from this experience, and will go on ripping off his next employer and bitching about the idiots he works with... fits that story about those who live in glass houses.. Any way the unit repaired is still working 16 hr days and so far no leakage reported....


About automotive mechanics, you are very fortunate to have found a good one... they are few and far between.. Most auto mechs get all the training fre as the dealerships pay for their teravel and lodging also... So if you horse *** around in class you turn out to be just like our former mech..They think they are great but only in their minds...So hang on to your mech and you will be far happier than most w/ the automotive experience.:thumbsup: 

Ernie


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## Ernie

Well its been 15 days since the repair and all is dry...Amazing what the right parts will do...


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## Steve

Big E, I think I saw that you had been replacing the seal every 6 months or so.....I take it that it was the same person making the repairs for you? They probably giving you a good deal too.

Anyway, thanks for posting your story in misery and then victory. Nothing like actually fixing it yourself. Good satisfaction in that.

With the help of this forum, I have made a lot of repairs to my 22. It is about to get some sheet metal repairs and then paint. Pictures will be coming.

Cheers

:bigusa:


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## Ernie

Hey Steve, you are correct about the satisfaction... As Argee stated earlier it brings back the days of heavy equipment repair that he and I used to do...

As for the misery and victory the victory part sucks because they no longer have the mechanic in our employment and he has a mouth that wont quit and is gainfully getting unemployment.... makes one wonder why we work so hard to keep him in the unemployment line...kind of the wrong message to send back as employers..... find work... not a new concept..... sure would make the burden a little lighter...


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