# John Deere 4100/410 Bucket Cylinder



## Jason4100

Looking for some help. My left bucket cylinder has been lagging the right cylinder for some time now when I remove my bucket. So I bought a rebuild kit for it and spent 2 hours trying to get the end cap off. I found a little slot which looks like a snap ring is installed. I was able to get the snap ring to start to come out of the slot then it broke? The seal kit doesn't come with this snap ring. Is the cylinder pressed together? I don't see how that snap ring can come out of that slot? Any one have this problem? I have never seen this type of hydraulic cylinder?

Jason


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## GreenFlyer

Check out this video on YouTube that may give some help. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqCKbyk6s5o&feature=player_embedded[/ame] There are several others. Good luck! *************** Moderators noteTried to fix it, but it still won't put you on directly. Sorry!************


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## Hoodoo Valley

Not that I can help, but I'll weigh in on this.... On my 990, one cylinder will always cycle faster than the other, with no bucket or attachment hooked up. I think it's like a rear end, in that the fluid will go to the cylinder with the least resistance, in which typically it's the cylinder closest to the supply line ie the one that has the least distance. Your cylinder I believe could possibly be fine! I have also been told by our local JD mechanic, that the cylinders need to be pulled apart with quite a bit of force. He told me that even the smaller cylinders like we have on our machines, are attached to an anchor in the shop floor, and a regular forklift used to pull them apart. Hope this helps!


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## Hoodoo Valley

Greenflyer, thanks for sharing the video. My cylinders have always bled down since new also, making me want to sell my JD and get a Kubota instead. It always pissed me off that JD would use cheap cylinders like this, so one day, I'll be a Kubota man, and hopefully not too far off, either!


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## GreenFlyer

We have a 430 loader on the 970. So far I have not had any problems with it.


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## Hoodoo Valley

GF, your bucket doesn't settle if you leave it set for a couple hours, empty?


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## GreenFlyer

I have never left the bucket off the ground when I am not using it. I have turned the bucket over onto the teeth and let it sit overnight, but never off the ground. I leave some residual pressure in the cylinders when I am done using it for awhile. The cylinders have never leaked, so other than washing and wiping down, I leave them alone. A couple of years ago the power steering cylinder developed a leak. I removed it, took it the shop and had it rebuilt and polished. It has been fine after about a hundred hours use.


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## Hoodoo Valley

I roll my bucket up and park the loader on the ground so as to keep the cylinders from being exposed to moisture and rusting, but with my loader, just a few minutes with a load and the cylinders are giving out. Like I said, next tractor purchase here in a couple years will be a Kubota. Pretty certain of that.


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## oldtom

Jason that c/clip that you had so much fun with is in fact a piece of wire very come on agri hydrolyse cylinder M/F used them on the old M/F45/50 backhoe/loaders to remove you wind them out by rotating the head crown normally in a c/c direction but as you looking in to the hole you see the end of the wire its has one end bent at 90deg fitting in hole in the barrel you my have to use a screwdriver to try and feed the end out as you rotate the crown


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## Jason4100

Thanks for the replys. I ended up taking the cylinder to a local hydraulic supply store and they cut the end of the cylinder off rebuilt it and tig welded it all back together for 100.00. But my problem still exsists. The right cylinder still moves all the wat out until it stops then the rebuilt cylinder moves to the end of its stroke. The front end loader is a 410 and I might look into what greenflyer did with his cylinders. Very nice job and well done.

Jason


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## Hoodoo Valley

Jason, they all do that. My 889 did it since new. Don't worry about it!


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## Hoodoo Valley

tractor beam said:


> Not that I can help, but I'll weigh in on this.... On my 990, one cylinder will always cycle faster than the other, with no bucket or attachment hooked up. I think it's like a rear end, in that the fluid will go to the cylinder with the least resistance, in which typically it's the cylinder closest to the supply line ie the one that has the least distance. Your cylinder I believe could possibly be fine! I have also been told by our local JD mechanic, that the cylinders need to be pulled apart with quite a bit of force. He told me that even the smaller cylinders like we have on our machines, are attached to an anchor in the shop floor, and a regular forklift used to pull them apart. Hope this helps!


Jason, if you go to the dealer, every machine on their lot will do the same thing as yours. The hydro fluid goes to the cylinder with the least resistance, which will be the cylinder closest to the supply line coming from the valves. No need to waste your dough on rebuilds!


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## GreenFlyer

That is not me in the video. I found it on YouTube. I am trying to picture just what is happening with your cylinders and the un-even operation. The pressure should be the same throughout the entire system. I am thinking it can only be a supply, leak, or mis-matched cylinder issue. Fluid level? Are the hoses hooked up properly?


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## Hoodoo Valley

Jason, I sent you a PM!


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## Hoodoo Valley

GreenFlyer said:


> That is not me in the video. I found it on YouTube. I am trying to picture just what is happening with your cylinders and the un-even operation. The pressure should be the same throughout the entire system. I am thinking it can only be a supply, leak, or mis-matched cylinder issue. Fluid level? Are the hoses hooked up properly?


I don't believe it's an issue. The system pressure is the same, it's just that the one cylinder is closer to the supply line than the other. My 990 will do the exact same thing when the bucket is off. The 2 rams work independently of each other, and it just operates the cylinder with the least resistance first, then the more difficult one next. Jason, they all will do that to a certain extent, unless they have an attachment or are tied together like the bigger machines. My 990 did it since new. The right cylinder will cycle all the way in or out, before the left begins to cycle. I really wouldn't worry about it.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Great videos both 1 and 2 GF! Mars1952 put not only a lot of effort into his project, but also the documentation as well as noting his mistakes within his video. Very informative!


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## GreenFlyer

Yea, that guy did a great job with the videos. It is amazing what one can find on YouTube these days. Last winter I found a video on how to replace the door handle on the sliding door of a Honda Odyssey. Who would have thought? I already knew how to replace a door handle on several different vehicles. It was really just a fluke find. I was searching for videos on how to repair/adjust a Tecumseh carburetor for a snowblower.


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## Hoodoo Valley

I was trying to think of a way to get him to join our forum! What a great addition to our community! Did you see the second part? Must see!


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## GreenFlyer

Yea, I watched the second part. He did a great job with both videos. The picture quality was very good. He had alot of awesome workshop tips.


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## mars1952

Jason4100 said:


> Looking for some help. My left bucket cylinder has been lagging the right cylinder for some time now when I remove my bucket. So I bought a rebuild kit for it and spent 2 hours trying to get the end cap off. I found a little slot which looks like a snap ring is installed. I was able to get the snap ring to start to come out of the slot then it broke? The seal kit doesn't come with this snap ring. Is the cylinder pressed together? I don't see how that snap ring can come out of that slot? Any one have this problem? I have never seen this type of hydraulic cylinder?
> 
> Jason


Hi Jason: This response is a little late but the loader cylinders need to be mechanically locked together for them to move together. If you look at the plumbing of the cylinders the right one probably gets fluid before the left one. The right on will fill and them the left one. 
I had the same trouble on my JD4300 with a 420 loader. The quick hitch parts are connected with a solid bar. The bar is pinned to the quick hitch parts. When one of the pins falls out or snaps the quick hitch parts will work independently. After I replaced the pins my Loader was back to normal. I made a video of the project and posted it on Youtube. Here is the link:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D54JYqtJfSU"]John Deere 420 loader quick hitch rebuild[/ame]
Please Comment, share and "Like" my videos.
Thanks, Mars
P.S. A picture is worth a thousand words and a 10 minute video has about one hundred thousand pictures in it.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Mars, you struck upon a great point. I remember right from the start, that my pins just kept falling out, and I put in large nails and they worked for a long time, but from what your saying, the nails must have broke and came out. I feel a bit DOOF now, thinking all this time that that's just the way it was supposed to be and never really gave it a moments thought. I just figured that the attachment was the tie together! Dah! Guess I need to come up with a better solution than the cheap cotter pins that were designed into the system. Thank you for the explanation breakdown! As usual, you deliver a great presentation!


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## Jason4100

I will have to look at my 410 loader again I don't think it has that cross bar??? But that makes sense.

Jasin


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## Hoodoo Valley

I guess it's the sunshine or diesel exhaust, but I had always thought that the bucket or attachment acted as the tie together, and hadn't made the connection that it was that shaft at the pivot point. I had been made aware of the fact that the pins at the pivot point were breaking when the pivot shaft kept slipping out one side or the other. From a mechanical standpoint, I failed to make the connection, until you, Mars pointed it out, that the pivot rod was the tie point between the rams as is I'm sure the attachment is also. I'm making the connection now, as I really hadn't thought about it much, and just kept replacing the pins and cursing JD, but the pins are a sort of safety mechinism to prevent damage from occuring in the event, as I often do, you point load on one corner or the other, of the bucket. That being said, I have a question for you, as I kept beefing up the pins more and more with each break.......Would putting large, say 3/8 grade 8 bolts in the pivot rod in place of the cotter pins implimented by the design lead to damage? I had always thought that the two rams just worked independently of each other with the attachment off and just got used to it, but in light of your enlightenment... (thanks alot:lmao Now suddenly it bothers me and I want to figure a way of keeping the rams tied together. Or should I? Perhaps I should just keep them seperated and live with it? What's your take on that? I'm stewing it over now! The lights are on in fab lab now!


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## mars1952

tractor beam said:


> I guess it's the sunshine or diesel exhaust, but I had always thought that the bucket or attachment acted as the tie together, and hadn't made the connection that it was that shaft at the pivot point. I had been made aware of the fact that the pins at the pivot point were breaking when the pivot shaft kept slipping out one side or the other. From a mechanical standpoint, I failed to make the connection, until you, Mars pointed it out, that the pivot rod was the tie point between the rams as is I'm sure the attachment is also. I'm making the connection now, as I really hadn't thought about it much, and just kept replacing the pins and cursing JD, but the pins are a sort of safety mechinism to prevent damage from occuring in the event, as I often do, you point load on one corner or the other, of the bucket. That being said, I have a question for you, as I kept beefing up the pins more and more with each break.......Would putting large, say 3/8 grade 8 bolts in the pivot rod in place of the cotter pins implimented by the design lead to damage? I had always thought that the two rams just worked independently of each other with the attachment off and just got used to it, but in light of your enlightenment... (thanks alot:lmao Now suddenly it bothers me and I want to figure a way of keeping the rams tied together. Or should I? Perhaps I should just keep them seperated and live with it? What's your take on that? I'm stewing it over now! The lights are on in fab lab now!


The only reason you need to have the ends of the loader arms tied together is so that they work in unison when you are changing loader attachments. Before I fixed the connecting rod pins I had to fully extend the dump cylinders to get them lined up with the hooks on the bucket, pallet forks or bale spear. If you never change attachments you don't need both pins. One is enough to hold the rod in place.
If you want everything to work in unison the replacement pins have to be a tight fit otherwise there will be too much movement.
BTW The spring pins that I used are not working so well. They have started to work their way out of the holes after only 30 hours of use. I will try bolts next.
Mars


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## Hoodoo Valley

mars1952 said:


> The only reason you need to have the ends of the loader arms tied together is so that they work in unison when you are changing loader attachments. Before I fixed the connecting rod pins I had to fully extend the dump cylinders to get them lined up with the hooks on the bucket, pallet forks or bale spear. If you never change attachments you don't need both pins. One is enough to hold the rod in place.
> If you want everything to work in unison the replacement pins have to be a tight fit otherwise there will be too much movement.
> BTW The spring pins that I used are not working so well. They have started to work their way out of the holes after only 30 hours of use. I will try bolts next.
> Mars


That's what I've always done too Mars because the right cylinder always moves faster than the left, at least on my machine, so it becomes a video game of skill to an extent! I just wonder if by replacing the pins with bolts as you're now talking about and I started thinking about too now , if flex in the attachment and the hookups, especially when there is more weight on one side than the other, will just start wollowing out the holes in the carrier, the pivot shaft, and or shear the bolts in time. This design really doesn't have a positive tie together it seems, in the event of flex. It's obvious that there must be some twisting at work here, even though I actually have the heavy duty bucket on the loader whenever I'm not using my forks. Just wondering if everyone has this issue or is it just in this series of loaders. I kind of get the impression that when you lift something heavy, the rams act like a car rearend in a way, that the fluid goes to the ram with the least weight if the load happens to be shifted to one side, since the pins are the only thing keeping both rams in unison, aside for the attachment, which surely must flex between the attaching hooks and the pins at the bottom of the quick change. Am I making sense?


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## Hoodoo Valley

After giving it some thought, I've decided to run with the following. The carriers on my loader are cast, so I'll leave the cotter pin holes, which are on the order of about 3/16 of an inch, intact. I'll slip the pivot rod out each end enought to drill the cotter pin hole in the rod itself out to around a half inch or less, then sleeve the holes with small pieces of rubber tubing, then put it all back together with pins that tightly fit the cotter pin holes in the cast carriers, through the enlarged and rubber sleeved holes bored through the pivot rod, then into the cast carriers on the opposite sides of the pivot rod. The rubber sleeves will allow things to flex in operation, yet return the carriers to alignment when the attachment has been removed. The rubber will still allow the pins to fluctuate enough to avoid damage to the parts of the loader or the pins themselves. What do you think Mars? I'm on my way out to get the ball rolling with a look at the design to make sure I'm not missing something obvious. Toss in your input guys!


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## Hoodoo Valley

Okay, the operation went very well. Inserted a piece s of 1/4 fuel line into each bored out hole on the pivot rod, and drilled and inserted threaded 1/4 inch socket headed screws coupled with all metal locknuts through the standard sized holes in the cast carriers. The carriers can be flexed now, enough to compensate for flex between the two carriers, and the fuel line inserts act as a spring loaded buffer and return the carriers, which have about 3 inches of spring loaded flex each direction, back to center. No more lost or broken pins at this moment, but I'll report back on this thread after about 50 hours of use.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Here are a few pictures of the operation. The bucket of oil is refuse oil from my 316 mowers oil changes, and I parked it below the holes to be bored out. As I drill, I occassionaly dip the bit in the oil every few seconds and the excess runs out and drips back in the bucket. You can see the 1/4 fuel line in the pivot shaft. I did both sides like this.


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## jdi

*loader cylinder*

The 541 loader on my 5410 has the same problem with the cylinders going out at different rates when the bucket is off. A bit of a nuisance when hooking up, but usually works. I don't think there is a shaft to keep them even on my loader.


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## Jason4100

I want to thank everyone for the information. I fixed my 410 loader last night. I finally had time to look at it. Well I do have a rod that goes across to hook the 2 arms together and sure enough it was missing one of the pins on the right side. This was the cylinder that was going out first. I put a 1/4 inch bolt into the hole and it solved the problem. This is just a temp fix. I am going to go get 2 new pins most likely a little bigger because my holes are ob-long gated. I belong to a bunch of old car forums and these type of forums are the best place for information like this.

Thanks again

Jason


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