# Is my tractor worthless?



## pioneerMan (11 mo ago)

Yesterday I was unsuccessful at even scooping up a small pile of rocks. I've determined that unless the material is soft dirt, there really is no chance in scooping it up. My guess is because my tractor just doesn't have enough horse power.










Here is what my front loader looks like:










Maybe it's because my loader needs teeth to help move into a pile of rocks? I'm new to all this farmer stuff.

Thanks for your advice!


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

What brand and model do you have ?

Are the bucket controls enough to tilt more downwards and then do the scoop curl to fill the bucket? It's like doing a waltz. The exact movements gracefully works every time, else you look clumsy on the dance floor.


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## pioneerMan (11 mo ago)

bmaverick said:


> What brand and model do you have? Are the bucket controls enough to tilt more downwards and then do the scoop curl to fill the bucket?


Bobcat CT235. Yes, I can use the bucket controls to tilt back and forth. But I'm thinking the root problem is that this little beast only has about 35 horse power. It's just not enough to dig into a pile of rocks. Would it help if I had a tooth bar bolted onto my bucket?


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## BinVa (Sep 21, 2020)

You're going to bounce over a few rocks...the more you bounce...the more distributed under the bucket...ect...ect... ect... you get the idea!! Adjusting your approach angle will help..as stated it's an art...not a science. B.


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## pioneerMan (11 mo ago)

Will a bolted on tooth bar help?


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

pioneerMan said:


> Will a bolted on tooth bar help?


yes. I welded 5 chunks of scrap metal onto the bucket of a 30hp Kubota, and it helped greatly when digging.

ps. It isn't about hp It is weight per digging width that makes the difference in my mind. HP = speed. Weight = tractive force. Force/area = pressure. Pressure is what moves dirt. The teeth create areas of high pressure.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

pioneerMan said:


> Will a bolted on tooth bar help?


Does your machine have any rear weight to counter balance? 

Beet juice or the pink RV/Marine anti-freeze in the tires? You got the power. Yes, a tooth bar would help in dry soil conditions.


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

pioneerMan said:


> Will a bolted on tooth bar help?


A tooth bar won't fix the problem in the picture. That problem is operator error. Practice, practice, practice. Don't let material get under the bucket.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Teeth penetrate easier than a flat cutting edge, especially if used in rocky spoil, HP and tractor weight sure helps and I would love to have your 35HP against my 24HP.

Are you having trouble knowing when the bucket is level on the ground, if so this will be your biggest problem, you will need to practice, -- looking at your pile in the photo I feel you have crowded (rolled) the bucket too soon,-- try this, approach from the RH side with the bucket level or slightly nose down and drive straight into the pile, don't touch the crowd lever and you should be able to get most of the pile in the bucket, roll the bucket back when you want to take to dump area, it is fairly hard to explain how to operate, your first is to learn where the bucket cutting edge is in relation to the ground, laid back in your photo and the bucket will want to climb the pile, level or very slightly nose down and the bucket should penetrate the pile, to much nose down and it will dig in, -- practice on clear ground with the bucket flat on the ground at a bit faster than a crawl speed and feel the crowd/dump control lever by moving the lever to make the bucket nose down a little and then raise the nose to find the level and I mean feel, not long throw movements, until you get the feel of your machine and become part of it, you will have trouble operating. 

Don't take this as sarcasm or the like, I was in the same position back in the 1960's when I first learnt to operate.


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

Another tip. When taking pics, step back a little. If we need a real tight close up of your bucket we can zoom in.

Next time you are trying to fill the bucket, approach the pile, start trying to fill, stop..... Get off the tractor, step away 20 ft to the side and take a pic. Post that.


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## Rolex (11 mo ago)

I would say grab a shovel and try by hand, different size materials require a different technique, once you work out the best technique for the situation you then apply that to your loader.

Coming in low and shaking the bucket up & down or left & right as you move in can help, other times hitting high will work better.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

bmaverick said:


> Does your machine have any rear weight to counter balance?
> 
> Beet juice or the pink RV/Marine anti-freeze in the tires? You got the power. Yes, a tooth bar would help in dry soil conditions.


weighted tires add minimal pushing power. It helps with lifting the bucket of dirt much more than filling the bucket. OP's CT235 is just slightly bigger than the L2550DT I litteral learned to drive on, and still use reasonably often, so I know the class of machine.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

bmaverick said:


> Does your machine have any rear weight to counter balance?
> 
> Beet juice or the pink RV/Marine anti-freeze in the tires? You got the power. Yes, a tooth bar would help in dry soil conditions.



If you have a set of pallet forks for your 3 point hitch, you can use one of these and just add as much water as you need for rear ballast.......I have one that works great on my 35 horse Kioti......










275 GALLON IBC TANK "1" Available - farm & garden - by owner - sale


As a family we have decided to continue with only open to our customers by you help yourself.....everything is up front and priced. There is a black LOCKED drop box on the gate post. Have the...



bloomington.craigslist.org


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

He doesn't need any ballast until he learns how to fill the bucket.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

ovrszd said:


> He doesn't need any ballast until he learns how to fill the bucket.



Dude, you are judging the man on just a picture that he posted to show what his bucket looked like.....He said nothing about trying to scoop anything with it rolled up like that..........Give the bro a little bit of a break on this.......Remember, this forum exists to help folks not to judge them and run them down for not knowing what they are doing......


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Groo said:


> weighted tires add minimal pushing power. It helps with lifting the bucket of dirt much more than filling the bucket. OP's CT235 is just slightly bigger than the L2550DT I litteral learned to drive on, and still use reasonably often, so I know the class of machine.


My Pa's 8N had zero push ability until he filled the tires with liquid and then went for the pile. So, I can't agree with it being a minimal help at all.

Ford 8n is a 25Hp gasser. It can move stuff if done right.


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

unsquidly said:


> Dude, you are judging the man on just a picture that he posted to show what his bucket looked like.....He said nothing about trying to scoop anything with it rolled up like that..........Give the bro a little bit of a break on this.......Remember, this forum exists to help folks not to judge them and run them down for not knowing what they are doing......


First, I'm not a Dude. Second, I'm not judging anyone. Third, did you miss the first pic of the pile of rock? Fourth, he asked what he's doing wrong and he has gotten a LOT of good advice. Crawl, walk, run. Once he learns how to fully load his FEL then he can decide about ballast.


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

bmaverick said:


> My Pa's 8N had zero push ability until he filled the tires with liquid and then went for the pile. So, I can't agree with it being a minimal help at all.
> 
> Ford 8n is a 25Hp gasser. It can move stuff if done right.


A 2wd tractor.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

ovrszd said:


> First, I'm not a Dude.
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> My apologies then, ma'am.......


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

That was very mature on your part.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

bmaverick said:


> My Pa's 8N had zero push ability until he filled the tires with liquid and then went for the pile. So, I can't agree with it being a minimal help at all.
> 
> Ford 8n is a 25Hp gasser. It can move stuff if done right.


And I agree, the more weight the tractor or machine carries, the better the traction control with more power being put to the ground.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

ovrszd said:


> He doesn't need any ballast until he learns how to fill the bucket.


Exactly. He could also use a bucket level indicator so he can tell when the bucket is sitting level with the ground.. Kubota sells a nice one that requires no welding for 40 bucks. Have them on both my M's.

I use colored electrical tape on my level rod to set level various attachments. Each one is level at a different point. The bucket is one point, the forks another and the snow plow yet another.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Exactly. He could also use a bucket level indicator so he can tell when the bucket is sitting level with the ground.. Kubota sells a nice one that requires no welding for 40 bucks. Have them on both my M's.
> 
> I use colored electrical tape on my level rod to set level various attachments. Each one is level at a different point. The bucket is one point, the forks another and the snow plow yet another.



Both of my Kiotis had one built into the FEL......Not sure if other brands have the same thing or not......


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

OP has front wheel assist, not a rear drive only. He don't really need additional ballast in the rear tires. he may need some ballast out back at some point but he needs to perfect filling the bucket first.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

unsquidly said:


> Both of my Kiotis had one built into the FEL......Not sure if other brands have the same thing or not......


Some do, some don't. You cannot tell with the OP's because the picture was taken way too close.


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## pioneerMan (11 mo ago)

SidecarFlip said:


> I use colored electrical tape on my level rod to set level various attachments. Each one is level at a different point. The bucket is one point, the forks another and the snow plow yet another.


Can you show us some photos?


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## TX MX5200 (May 12, 2020)

Couple points to consider….that soil is like powder and Is a lot softer than it looks when loose as is in that pic. That coupled with the R4 tires on your machine means you aren’t getting traction. That couples with trying to push into a dense pile such as rocks means you just spin.

What they’re meaning is that you need to get bucket at base of pile to get under the rocks….you have a bucket indicator on there as I see the bottom of it in your pic. If not used to it, you can mark the upper rod to led you know when bucket is level and flat on ground as you can’t see it from the seat.

I believe your using a straight blade to pile the rocks, but if you focus on pulling them in a line (windrow) instead of pile…then you attach the rocks from the ends of the and follow the line until bucket is full. This results in you pushing into a 2 or 3 foot section of rocks instead of full width of bucket. That’s the way we handle rocks with tractor.

I would leave implement on rear as that will give you a little more weight on rear tires, which have way more surface area than the fronts.

you can easily add a cutter blade on bottom of that bucket if you wish…it’s already setup for that with the pre drilled holes along the bucket edge.

Try some of these and keep practicing at it and you will get it down…once you enter the pile and feel tires starting to slip then slightly begin curling bucket upward as you move forward. Keep in mind a tractor isn’t a bulldozer and it’s not going to plow thru a pile of rock without spinning tires and doing that with rocks and you will get chance to buy AG tires before ya know it😁

It’s doable once ya get the feel…I had a 25 hp yanmar, 2wd with turf tires and used it to move multiple piles of crushed concrete.


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## pioneerMan (11 mo ago)

TX MX5200 said:


> ….you have a bucket indicator on there as I see the bottom of it in your pic. If not used to it, you can mark the upper rod to led you know when bucket is level and flat on ground as you can’t see it from the seat.


Can you describe this some more? I'm not sure what a bucket indicator is or how to find it on my tractor.


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## TX MX5200 (May 12, 2020)

Also…if your stuck with dealing with piles of rocks you will have a much easier time approaching it from angles…go at it with corner of bucket. This reduces surface area of bucket as you enter the pile.


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

pioneerMan said:


> Can you describe this some more? I'm not sure what a bucket indicator is or how to find it on my tractor.






Look at this picture below.............Do you see the little silver rod on the side of the closest FEL arm? It slides up and down in that orange metal sleeve.....This is the bucket level indicator.....When it is even at the top with the orange sleeve then your bucket is level with the ground....So, as it comes further out of the sleeve then that means that your bucket is "curled" up and when the silver rod goes below the top orange metal sleeve then that means that your bucket is tilting down like you are dumping it.......Make more sense now?


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## pioneerMan (11 mo ago)

unsquidly said:


> When it is even at the top with the orange sleeve then your bucket is level with the ground....So, as it comes further out of the sleeve then that means that your bucket is "curled" up and when the silver rod goes below the top orange metal sleeve then that means that your bucket is tilting down like you are dumping it.


Wow, that is a really cool feature, I'm going check that out the next time I'm out driving. Thanks!


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## unsquidly (Jul 13, 2021)

pioneerMan said:


> Wow, that is a really cool feature, I'm going check that out the next time I'm out driving. Thanks!



You are welcome.........Sorry your post kind of got hijacked and side tracked.......


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## DK35vince (Jan 22, 2006)

Looks like you need to get your bucket edge level and under the rocks in that pile instead of trying to dig through the rocks in the middle of the pile.
HP isn't the problem; I have a 35 HP tractor also and by the looks of that pile I don't believe I would have any issues at all getting full heaping buckets


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## TX MX5200 (May 12, 2020)

Best advice is don’t get frustrated with using bucket and keep practicing. The issue is we can’t see bucket from the seat of tractor. The indicator helps until you get feel for bucket position. 

Really makes me wonder if tractors are designed backward. We all spend money to add weight to rear for ballast and none of can see a damn thing in front of tractor. I always wondered by they don’t put heavy motor toward rear and seat close to front. Would look odd but would solve 2 big issues plus would blow exhaust behind you.


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## TX MX5200 (May 12, 2020)

Also…if you google Messicks you will see they have many videos on tractor use..they’re a Kubota/new Holland dealer and he post many how to tips such as approaching piles using a bucket.


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## Tx Jim (Jul 28, 2020)

IMHO operating a front end loader is a "learned art". The more hours of use of FEL NORMALLY the better operator one becomes.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

pioneerMan said:


> Can you show us some photos?


I'm not photogenic....lol


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## BinVa (Sep 21, 2020)

Tractors and heavy equipment take some finesse to operate efficiently.. some people come by it naturally...some learn...some just never do get it. I've encountered all kinds in the land development and farming business. It just the nature of it... B.


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

BinVa said:


> Tractors and heavy equipment take some finesse to operate efficiently.. some people come by it naturally...some learn...some just never do get it. I've encountered all kinds in the land development and farming business. It just the nature of it... B.


I know a guy that's ran a TLB for 30 years. Don't get within boom reach of him when he's digging. He'll hit ya!!! Isn't any better today than he was the first day he crawled on one.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

ovrszd said:


> A 2wd tractor.


I was going to point that out. a world of difference between a 2wd like an N and the 4x4 of the CT or the L-dt when it comes to loader work on a small tractor.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

TX MX5200 said:


> Best advice is don’t get frustrated with using bucket and keep practicing. The issue is we can’t see bucket from the seat of tractor. The indicator helps until you get feel for bucket position.
> 
> Really makes me wonder if tractors are designed backward. We all spend money to add weight to rear for ballast and none of can see a damn thing in front of tractor. I always wondered by they don’t put heavy motor toward rear and seat close to front. Would look odd but would solve 2 big issues plus would blow exhaust behind you.


they are not designed backwards. We are using them backwards. Tractors are made for pulling. We slap front loaders on them and expect them to do everything under the sun. A dedicated front digger wouldn't have large rear tires and small front tires. Articulated loaders and skid-steers are made for loader work. Tractors are not. The nice thing about a front loader on a tractor is the nose weight will help the bucket dig down. I have an antique tractor based track loader. It will easily out-lift a modern tractor with twice the HP and do it much safer thanks to the nice low center of gravity.
ps. Versitile used to (maybe still does) make reversible tractors where the seat would just spin around to work with the other end.


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## ovrszd (12 mo ago)

Groo said:


> I was going to point that out. a world of difference between a 2wd like an N and the 4x4 of the CT or the L-dt when it comes to loader work on a small tractor.


If operated correctly, when filling the bucket, the front tires of the 4wd tractor do a huge majority of the work. 

I hate to be specific because someone will dispute it. So, I'll say, when "I" fill "my" bucket "my" front tires do 80% of the work.


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## BinVa (Sep 21, 2020)

TMI.....😁


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## JeremyBX (Jul 31, 2020)

pioneerMan said:


> Yesterday I was unsuccessful at even scooping up a small pile of rocks. I've determined that unless the material is soft dirt, there really is no chance in scooping it up. My guess is because my tractor just doesn't have enough horse power.
> 
> View attachment 77446
> 
> ...


What was happening when you were trying to scoop it? Was the bucket edge not getting under the rocks? Was it angled down with too much pressure and digging in to the ground? Was the bucket cutting in to the pile well, but the tractor would stop moving forward?

A little more detail helps in providing direction. From looking at the pile of rocks, I have a BX2200 (which is smaller than yours) and I feel I could move it without issue. 

While there are definitely limits to what smaller machines can do, the general rule is larger machines can just do the work a lot faster. I have seen people who have dug ponds with a BX FEL. It would have been easier and a lot shorter with a bigger machine, but the BX did it.

My BX is great for my needs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Vigo (Oct 8, 2021)

Lots of good comments already. Learning to use the bucket level indicator you may already have is definitely the best place to start.

Getting a small machine to do something is usually about managing traction. HP doesn't get you much in the FEL game. It's more relevant to PTO-powered implements. Weight gets you traction, but weight doesn't just come from modifying the tractor. How you use the loader (or 3pt) also affects weight on the tires. For example, when im driving my 12hp or 19hp Kubota FEL tractors into a dirt pile, i try to get the bucket edge sunk just far enough in that I can 'load' the front tires harder with the lifting force of the loader. If i put the bucket edge in a couple inches and just lifted as hard as i could I'd break loose a pittance of dirt and have to start over. But if for example you'd have to pull up with 500 lbs to break that dirt loose and you pull up by 400lbs instead, you just put 400lbs of 'traction' on your front tires and can now drive the bucket in a little deeper before actually trying to break loose and lift that dirt. 

With rock, the main issue is getting it to slide into the bucket vs just sliding along on the ground. I think the best advice was already given there. Just push the rocks into longer rows and and go at it from the end of the row. If done well each large rock you hit with the bucket will have to either push ALL the rocks behind it along on the ground, or slide into the bucket, at which point the bucket becomes the path of least resistance.


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## John Liebermann (Sep 17, 2018)

Well I'm late to comment but cant help myself First it is not a traction or power issue, the tractor moved half the pile with the bucket attacking to the middle. As have been explained earlier it going to take some experience, but.. first I question the cutting edge on that bucket does it even have one. Al tho that would not have made any difference in this case because the OP attacked the pile in the middle. To properly scoop this pile of rocks you gotta get under the pile barely scooping the border between dirt and rocks. That is where experience is required. But it still is going to take a cutting edge.


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## Vigo (Oct 8, 2021)

Here are two examples of managing traction to make a small tractor move big things.









Here's a tiny tractor pulling a box blade. Most people say tractors this size and even a little bigger should have a 48" box blade, but this one is 60". Not only that, you can just barely see that there is a 113lb loading dock bumper bolted to the back of it, probably making the whole thing weigh ~450lbs. It is 100% full of dirt and is pushing a column of dirt in front of it that even goes a little between the rear tires. So a 60" box blade that is 120% full, with 100+ extra lbs on the end of it, and a 12hp tractor smaller than a new BX can pull it, with turf tires. But only if you do it a certain way. The box is tilted back, which keeps the front blade and side rails of the box from scraping the ground. I've also pulled up on it with the 3pt. The 3pt wont LIFT that 60" box blade full of dirt with 100 extra lbs on the back, but it will still make it lighter by however much the 3pt can lift. If the 3pt can lift 500 lbs (tiny tractor), it can make that box 500lbs lighter (less friction against the ground) AND put 500 more lbs on the rear tires for traction. I'm in low gear, 4wd, with the rear diff locked. If THAT didn't work, I still have the option of picking up weight with the front end loader (just picking up a bucket of dirt, etc) to add that weight to the front tires to improve 4wd traction. Since I didn't do that, this isn't technically maxing out what the tractor can pull.









Here's a tractor pushing all of those rocks. It will push that entire pile. But only if you're doing it a certain way.  Bucket edge is not trying to cut into the ground. Bucket edge IS under some of the rocks, and applying _some_ lifting force on those rocks doesn't actually lift them, but it puts the equivalent amount of force DOWN on the front tires for 4wd traction. The bucket sides are also ramping upwards a bit, which means the harder i push forward, the more the rocks would want to 'ride up' the bucket, thus reducing how much actual rock is scraping the ground trying to stop me.

So you should always be thinking in terms of traction the _tractor_ has, and traction the _load _has. Usually there is a way to reduce the load's traction, add that traction to the tractor, and push or pull quite a bit with a tiny tractor. In the case of the tiny rocks in the original post, they didn't have enough traction to sit still when you pushed on them, so they just slid away. Couple of things you could do is push them all next to a berm or edge or rise that would hold them on the backside while you slid under them on the front side. Or, if the ground was soft enough to dig with the bucket, you could scoop a hole about 3" deep with the bucket, drag the rocks into the hole, and then pick them up with the 'wall' of that hole holding them on the back while you push under them from the front. Then you backfill the hole when you're done.

That would look something like this:









Or just get off and push them into the bucket with a shovel or landscape rake.


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