# Ford 4000 Repair Bill, Was it too much $



## Bryan 2 (Jul 28, 2021)

I took my 1965 Ford 4000 to a repair shop last week. It looked like the Power Steering hydraulic cylinder was leaking. So I asked them to take a look, and if needed, put a new seal kit in. I also know the two hydraulic lines are old and said replace them while you’re at it.
Below is the invoice. I was shocked. Should I have been?
Thanks, everyone
Bryan


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Couple things I don't get. Disposal fee $24 bucks for what? Tossing the old hoses in the dumpster? Only replaced 2 quarts of fluid. I imagine what leaked dribbled to the shop floor...

Hoses were pretty high as well.

I don't get 12 hours labor to replace the seal kit and put the cylinder back on. In my opinion, even the shop flunkie could do it in 6 hours maximum.

Their shop rate is quite reasonable, the shop rate at my dealer is a bit more. Me thinks they are making up for the shop rate by padding the hours a bit.  

Finally tax. I don't pay tax on my tractor repairs at my dealer but then I have a blanket tax exemption on file with them (as I do with everyone I deal with concerning the farm). Your state may be different from mine (Michigan). We have a bona-fide ag operation with a Federal Tax number (ID).

Just bought a new 2021 Round baler. 40 grand and no tax on it either. I'm sure the state will mail me a release at some point, they usually do.


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## Bryan 2 (Jul 28, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Couple things I don't get. Disposal fee $24 bucks for what? Tossing the old hoses in the dumpster? Only replaced 2 quarts of fluid. I imagine what leaked dribbled to the shop floor...
> 
> Hoses were pretty high as well.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Those were the points I thought looked high. I took it to a reputable Tractor repair business that is not a dealer. I had been there twice to speak with them about the repairs I needed.


Twelve hours of labor? My goodness, were two other people standing and watching?
If you look, they also added $16.00 for another gallon of oil on #2.
I'm not tax-exempt, So that's legit.

Thanks for your reply! I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't out of line before asking them to review the invoice.

Bryan


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Probably get no satisfaction but if it was me, I'd never go there again and I'd make sure to tell people they screwed you.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Is the labour for fabricating the hoses with fittings not included in the price for the hoses?
The seal kit is for the rod. You unscrew the end nut, pull the old parts out, put the new ones in and put the rod end back. 15 minutes.









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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Hoses should be pre made in as much as the ends are steel tubing.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

I would surely be querying the 12 hours labour and the extra gallon of oil, that is exorbitant and overboard, get up them!!.

EPA prices are on par with ours here plus we pay extra for workshop supplies like some rag and paper wipes, its a rip off, your hoses are cheaper than ours for the comparable size.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Can't even begin to give an accurate number of OSV (Outside Vendor Invoices) invoices, on class-8 trucks and trailers, I've reviewed over the last 20 years of my career managing fleets, but I would guess it's well over 100,000. There is an art to both reviewing and "padding" repair invoices and it's the game Fleet Managers and Service Managers play every day. If you're a Fleet Manager sending an OSV $50,000 worth of work a year, you've got way more leverage to negotiate the final price than a "one-off" customer.....

*12 hours labor ($1,200)* --- That's the out/overhaul/back in time I would expect on Fuller transmission in a Double-Bunk condo sleeper, not a 2" steering cylinder. My note to the Service Manager would be something along the lines of .... "Who did you put on this Forrest Gump?"

*Environmental Fee ($24)* ---- Repair shops have been charging Environmental/Shop Supply fees since the 90's. 3% isn't out of the norm on the invoice subtotal (minus tax). In this case it's 1.6%

*Taxes ($112)* --- Unless you have some sort of special exemption, everybody pays sales tax(including big fleets). Usually it's on any kind of parts, but some States also collect sales tax for repair labor on tangible property (MS is one). The sales tax on this invoice (if repair labor is taxable in your State) should have been on the parts, labor, and 1 gallon of oil($1,470.99). $112.12 / $1,470.99 = 7.6%

Outside of the 12 hours labor, it's the usual SOS in the "invoice game". All OEM equipment manfuacturers (Trucks, cars, heavy equipment, fork lifts, lawn mowers, etc) publish what are called SRT's (Standard Repair Times) for their Service Dealers. It used to be in big books called the "flat rate manual". Now days, it's electronic and usually on a disc. Service Managers use it on a daily basis and it's their bible for scheduling the shop labor needs for each job. If you're willing to spend $250, you could probably find the exact SRT for that repair on your Ford 400 through these guys. They also provide one of the few good Flat Rate Guides for Outdoor Power Equipment.....

Flat Rate Guides for Labor Times


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Bob Driver said:


> *12 hours labor ($1,200)* --- That's the out/overhaul/back in time I would expect on Fuller transmission in a Double-Bunk condo sleeper, not a 2" steering cylinder. My note to the Service Manager would be something along the lines of .... "Who did you put on this Forrest Gump?"



That is funny Pad and ream are 2 different animals. Obviously don't ever want his business again.

When I worked at Freightliner we never overhauled a transmission, we just installed a reman and renewed the clutch, pressure plate and had the flywheel turned if applicable, which was most times. Ceramic clutch discs eat up flywheels.

Their shop rate is reasonable by today's standards however, they way they jack it up isn't. Think I'd increase the shop rate to like $140 and quit cheating on the time.

In this state an AG exemption removes the tax on everything farm related, simple form here and once you submit it, it's good basically forever, called a blanket ag exemption. Have a few extra's in my drawer, just in case.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

The "game" in Reman transmissions is what they do with the main shaft thrust setting. .003 will get you 500,000 miles, .008 will get you to the end of their warranty. You did check them going in right?

Kevlar clutches.... 700,000 miles and no flywheel wear


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

No, remember I drove for them, I wasn't in the repair shop. In my entire driving career I never wore out a clutch anyway. I never used a clutch except when starting out. Don't now either on my tractors or on my vehicles (they are all standard transmissions). I don't do automatics very well.

I got to watch what transpired in the shop without getting dirty.


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## Captain Mal (Jul 15, 2020)

HOLY HELL!

The whole tractor is hardly worth that much. I sold my 1966 Ford 2000 for $1,600. To me the hydraulic issues it had were not worth the effort. Bought a 2000 Tafe and needed the entire hydraulic steering cylinder re-built. 

Taken off, new hoses made, the cylinder sent out for the re-build and then all assembled and tested cost me $600 at Brewer Tractor in Elleville, Ga. 

This is a "BEFORE" photo. No "AFTER" photo but picture the cylinder and hoses like new.


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## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I'm far from expert but I bet by taking measurements some place like Surplus Hydraulics could have sent you a new one.
You could have easily installed it I bet.
A few $hundred.

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

All water over the dam as he authorized the repair place to fix it and it now on the hook for the repair bill (which he already paid). Far as just replacing the cylinder with another, that don't work either. The cylinder end is specially built to 'sense' steering input.

Was he overcharged? Certainly on labor but parts, not really.


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## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Is this the cylinder?









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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

No, it is this one:





3000 3500 3550 4000 4100 4330 FORD TRACTOR POWER STEERING CYLINDER for sale | eBay


Find great deals on eBay for 3000 3500 3550 4000 4100 4330 FORD TRACTOR POWER STEERING CYLINDER. Shop with confidence.



www.ebay.ca


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## Captain Mal (Jul 15, 2020)

Holy Heck!..again. That is a hugely expensive power steering cylinder. Sure understand why you wold get that re-built if possible. 

Always get a chuckle at the myth that some old model tractors just go on forever. My 1966 Ford 2000 was often described like that. Man I had to re-build the injector pump twice and fix/ adjust it often. That was not cheap. Nor were the unusual side front tired I had to replace along with "unobtainable tubes". 

I was stupid and listened to people who said the smaller tubes would work. Wish they were there to figure out how to tow my tractor a full mile up a dirt trail when one of those smaller tubes split apart. Took days to sort the mess out and lots of $$$. 

Best thing about that old Ford was NO power steering. It sure built up the muscles in my arms and strengthened my hands. Same with tearing it apart and putting in a new fuel tank. Not so much about strength building but more about wallet thinning and frustrating time doing the repair. When the rear hydraulics started dropping the equipment near instantly seemingly on a whim, that myth of "running forever" went out my window along with the tractor. 

Bought that Tafe and immediately lost the power steering. Sometimes you cannot win for trying.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Well, the rebuild in this case consists of replacing the rod seals. The customer complaint was that the cylinder leaked, and that it needed new hoses. The shop saw that oil run from the end of the cylinder down to the valve body, which was wet. They switched the hoses (max 1 hour), replaced the rod seals (15 min) and the leaking stopped. Nothing needed to be done to the valve body. Work done.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

If I told you guys how much I spend maintaining my 2 M9000's, you'd probably be amazed. It's a lot. Just lubricant's are expensive. Each one takes 15 gallons of gear box oil at 175 bucks a 5 gallon pail, then there is the engine oil, 3 gallons at 23 bucks a gallon and tires at 5500 bucks a set and filters, and grease and more... and all the implements and all the net and twine and knives for the mower and on and on... Just part of farming.


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