# Briggs twin 18 I/C running on one cyl



## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Motor is running on one cyl, pull # 1 wire engine still missing, pull #2 engine dies. Change plugs nothing, switch pugs around same, order new B/S coil install (business card) same. order another coil install ten thousands, same thing??
compression 120 psi #1, 125 psi #2,
leakdown test @ TDC: 100 psi in ; read 74 on gauge. 
No intake leak w/ carb cleaner
I resealed the motor last year; was mowing and a huge cloud of smoke came out ,idle the motor down and pushed oil out breather tubes into air cleaner, then out the crankshaft seal. Motor has 40psi @ 3400 rpm, 20-24 psi at idle hot. 
I bought mower new in 1992, reg serviced and clean.
Thanks, 
Tim


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Is this the horizontally opposed twin,or v-twin? Engine #s would help.
Is there spark in both cylinders?
Also, how are you reading psi,at running speeds ?


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Yes it's model 422477 type 1225-01.
Compression was done on bench with starter approximately 6 revolutions on compression stroke. 
Yes spark at both wires, magnetron. I was told or read that it fires both wire at same time so it dummy fires the other side is that true? 
I put a gap tester on both plugs and clipped the ground to the top of the plug and ran it; lots of spark pulled the wire looking at flywheel on right ( I presume #1 since it sticks out closest to flywheel) and it keeps running the same ; put back on, pull #2 shuts right down. 
Leak down test w/ air only leaks into crankcase none thru intake or exhaust valve.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

The right picture! I own 4 of these engines 2 are down. It will take a lot of reconfiguring if I put a different motor in. These are all in a Grazer zero turn mower.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Ok,if it dies when you pull the second plug wire,but NOT when you pull the first wire,that indicates that the,first cylinder has the problem,and the second is doing all the work!
It could be a bad plug,plug wire,head gasket,valves,or rings.
However,since it stops when the #2 is pulled, I would check the plug,or wire,or plug connector.
It could still be a coil.I had to go through 3 coils on mine,to find a good one,...all were new.
Also,check to make sure the flywheel key is not sheared/nicked.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

when the engine is running on one cylinder, does it sound like it is laboring and flat sounding, I would also suggest you check the flywheel key, when the key shears, the engine will do funny things,
you have compression in both cylinders and spark plus fuel so the motor should run as it should.

Undo the flywheel nut and remove the washer and you will soon see if the flywheel has shifted, sounds like you may have had an implosion when you had the trouble.

I will try and do a backflip if I am wrong


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks
I will check tonight when I get home. It would be an easy job if it wasn't in a grazer it takes an hour and a half to two hours to get the motor out. Grrr
This will be the fifth time the motors been out to fix this problem !!!!!
1, new crank seals; back in
2, put 12v wire from (carb needle shut off) to the ground of coil an smoked the coil 
3, new coil (missing on cyl now)
4, try another new coil ( same one cyl)
5, now check flywheel key 

Try again


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm lookin at a nos short block
My engines run a oil filter and oil pump (pressure)
This one is just a sump and splash?
Do you guys see a problem with that? 
I would like the oil filter better , has same amount of oil minus filter in a closed crankcase. 

It's brand new Give me your thoughts please.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm just not sure 
Model # on the box


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Yours has pressure lube,so it doesn't lose lubrication,on hills,or inclines.
Switching to splash lube,and running a sideways cut,on an incline deprives the engine of good oiling.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Your model,and type # doesn't even show on B/S parts lists.
It's either a very old engine,or it may be one of the Chinese-made units,OR made only for Grazer!
UPDATE: It's like the one I have,and is an older engine which has very few parts available.
Ball-bearing crankshaft(both ends),and yours has pressure lube.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

It was built specific for grazer.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

What do I need to rebuild one?
Can someone help me out on 
.030 over piston #'s and do you put new rods in? A full gasket kit. I have a machine shop


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

What do they want for the short block?
Also, is your oil filter,and pump in the block,or the sump?
Pistons/rods,and other parts,if available would have to be ordered from Grazer,since it's a proprietary run.
Rods are usually about $45- $60 each,and pistons can cost up to $125 each.
Rods are not normally changed,unless broken,or worn out/scored.
Gasket kits(full set) Can run about $120.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Grays are sold at the Ingersoll into 2005. They seem to be dropping the line and not making any more parts and are very expensive. The motor parts or been discontinued probably since 2000. I picture show the filters on the side of the block not in the sump I believe there is an oil pump in the bottom right off of the gear I don't know that I've never had the cover off myself. Thanks for your help. Tim


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Yep that's what I was thinkin'.
As far as yours goes, I'm still inclined to believe it has a bad coil.
As I said,I had to try 3 times,to get a good one. 
Quality has really suffered since they started making them in china.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

That would be GRAZER sold out to ingersoll in 05-06.
The short block is $250 I was thinking buy it for pistons and rods, re sleeve mine to fit it? 
Thoughts


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Why? Just put your stuff on it,and run it.That gives you time to check the other one out.
Besides,the cylinders are cast in place.
Can't be re-sleeved,an can only bore them to .030" oversize.
Most times you can't find the pistons/rings for them.

Edit: 
I forgot to ask,....when you're checking the spark,do you have a tester on BOTH plugs,or just one?
Book says put tester on both,and run engine at idle,then increase RPM,and watch for a difference n the spark,or loss of spark.
if it has spark,at idle,on both,and cuts out,it's the coil.
These engines can run normally ,on one cylinder,until the load is too much,and it stalls.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

flchevelleman said:


> Thanks
> I will check tonight when I get home. It would be an easy job if it wasn't in a grazer it takes an hour and a half to two hours to get the motor out. Grrr
> This will be the fifth time the motors been out to fix this problem !!!!!
> 1, new crank seals; back in
> ...


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

FredM said:


> flchevelleman said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks
> ...


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

I wish!!!! The motor is under the seat which is on a hinged lid so you can check oil ect. The motor has electric clutch on crank side if you break or wear out the belt you have to unbolt the motor and slide it to flywheel sine to get 5/8 of an inch to get it on the pully. Flywheel side has a larger aluminum fan in place of Briggs plastic blades and grazers sticks out 1 1/2 inches more than the shroud, then it has bolted to it 1" shaft for another 3" b belt pully that runs the hydros. In 2000 hrs I have only broke one belt when I hit a tree root. It takes a hard knowing what to do next 11/2 hrs to get the motor on a bench to take either side pully off then aluminum flywheel is larger than the shroud hole it has to come off, then the shroud just to see the flywheel and coil. That's why I am trying to keep running this motor, I have a Honda Gx 680 I'm just not sure I can make the clearances work height is a problem for sure!


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Seems like I put foot in mouth, sorry about that, I googled Grazer and this brought up a couple of photos of 2 different models, I soon saw why you have so much trouble when doing repairs to the Grazer.

Can you bench test the engine instead of having to install and remove while trying to find your problem?, I see you have asked in another post about testing the coil, you can and I will see if I can find some resistance values for you and how to do this, I will get back with answers on the other post.

Actually you can check the timing of the flywheel by removing both spark plugs and the holding finger or thumb over the plug hole and feel for compression, I would like you to take note of where the flywheel magnet is in relation to the coil,(there may be a metal counter weight opposite the magnetic, check this with a screwdriver or metal object) the magnetic should be within the coil poles or slightly past TDC on compression, you will need to rock the flywheel back and forwards a few times to check this, doing this will save having to remove the flywheel nut at this time.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

Actually, it will spark,even if the key is damaged,or sheared,but not in correct timing.
If the timing key has even a small nick , in it,it can throw off the timing.
However, this would NOT cause one side to not fire.
By running the engine,with a spark tester on BOTH plugs, you'll be able to see if,or when the spark drops. 
If it has good spark ,on both sides,and still drops,it's not the coil,and you should start checking the head gasket,intake gasket,and as is common in the flat-head, the valve seat(they work loose,and hold the valve open).
If you see one side lose spark,or suddenly have a weak spark,it's either due to the coil,or spark plugs,or plug wires.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

copy this address to your web browser and save to desktop, this manual should cover your engine

http://www.vintagecruiser.co/pdfs/Twin Cylinder L-Head Repair Manual BRIGGS & STRATTON.pdf


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Ok gentlemen I tested tonight after all this discussion and I am more baffled!!!! I have a video but haven't been able to figure how to upload it. 
Start mower constant blue fire to # 1 thru all rpm range, pull wire off ,shock me but engine runs same, put on pull #2 instant dies on/ off on/ off leave #1 off and on/ off with #2 it does the same so # 1 is dead 

Now to make you think;
Switched wires; long wire is on #1 short wire with gap tester to #2 run motor sounds like running on one cyl. 
Pull #1 engine dies on/off on/off HA!
Put on then pull # 2 with the gap tester ( to lengthen the wire to reach) engine dies do this for a minute on / off shooting spark 1/2 thru tester then 1/2 to SP and still running while shocking the piss out of me at 1800 rpm.

What do you think now?


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)




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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

I do think we need to stay on one post and not a couple like what is going now.

When you say dies when a lead is removed, do you mean the engine completely stops or just loses revolutions ?.

Do both cylinders run when you swap the HT leads ?.

At the moment, I don't know what to think, you did replace the spark plugs since this problem started?.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

The coil is bad,or the wires are shorting.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

When I pull either side with it running it will shop running and I can catch it by putting the wire back on. 

Can I post video on here?


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

If you pull either HT lead the engine will stop ??

does the engine seem to be running on both cylinders or just the one ??

you have a new ignition coil fitted to the engine ??

Is the ignition coil transistor operated or with points and condenser ??

can you answer each question individually for me please !.

If you can manage it, could you use your multimeter and place a probe onto the soft iron pole of the ignition coil and the other lead to the engine crankcase or a clean area close to the coil mounting, using the ohm's setting for this, I need to see if the coil is grounded to the engine.

I am not sure if you can post video to this page, have you tried youtube ??


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Ok here goes;
HT wires in correct order # 1 is firing blue thru all rpm range BUT engine is running on one cyl and I pull the cap off and engine runs the same. Missing
Continuing......
HT wires in correct order #1 wire on if I PULL #2 engine dies instantly ;put back on engine will catch and keep running. 

YouTube under flchevelleman make sure watch the end of it.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Ok 3/25 test;
Switch HT ends; engine runs but still doesn't sound right, black smoke from exhaust;
Engine at 1600 rpm
Pull #1 wire (that is actually#2 HT wire) engine dies immediately put it on quickly and it catches it and keeps running
Continuing to # 2 plug ( that was actually #1) pull HT wire (that is going thru a gap tester shooting blue flame) engine dies shocks me so I put it back on engine starts to run again did this several shocking times!


(This is still the second ) new Briggs magnetron coil 
NO POINTS OR CONDENSER. 

I have not tore the motor out yet to try another coil.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

http://youtu.be/GXJVpgfvL-s


YouTube with HT wire swap


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

http://youtu.be/ho3pLjmJYzU

Running on one cyl. HT wires correct


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

thank you for copping so many shocks, they do tend to liven things up a wee bit!.

I watched both videos and in the second video, the engine seemed to be running on two cylinders.

Interesting about the HT leads being in their correct location and #1 missing, yet when the wires are switched and when either HT leads are removed from each spark plug in turn, the engine will die on both cylinders, this problem is becoming very confusing, to say the least.

Nothing is clicking together as it should, eventually you will have to pull the engine again.

When this happens, I would like you to check #1 tappet clearances and while you are at it, check #2 also, I would ask you to clean the magneto bed and make sure the magneto is earthed to the crankcase good, silly as it may sound, a bloke replaced a single coil pack on a Buick V6 and didn't use the gel between the base of the coil and mounting and eventually when a carbon lead started to fail, the circuit was broken and he had all sorts of misfiring problems, I know we are dealing with a mower engine, but the principal is the same (both types of coils are cross firing) and in your case, you remove a lead and the engine will stop, to me, the circuit is being broken.

Don't forget to check the flywheel key while the shroud is removed.

I would suggest you set the engine up on a base so you can test run before refitting to the chassis.

Regards


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

OK 

I listen to your report and I ran the motor again and it did seem to pick up with the front cylinder so I redid a compression test the last compression test was before I put in the first of two coils and the new compression rating is 85 psi number one cylinder 120 in number two cylinder. So I pulled the motor out it's on the bench. I'm going to pull the head off tonight if I can and take a look, I don't understand how I lost so much compression I haven't even ran the motor A half-hour since I put new seals on the crank and then it started missing on that cylinder? 

I took compression test with both spark plugs out and cranked it until It wouldn't increase anymore which is 6 to 8 revolutions


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)




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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

From the sound of the second video, you have either a bad head gasket, a bad valve,or a loose valve seat in the #2 cylinder.
The drop in compression is also a sign of it.
These engines DON'T have adjustable tappets,so unless you replaced them,that isn't the problem.
Valve adjustment is done by grinding the end of the valve stem.
Compare the cylinder readings,if there 's more than 25% difference,the lower cylinder is at fault.
Also,when doing compression tests,make sure both plugs are removed,and compare the readings.
Briggs has no set compression pressures.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Took shrouds off and pulled breathers and pulled #1 head. Intake tappet # 1 =.006 exhaust= .000. #2 int. .005 
Eh. .004. 

I can actually spin the ex. Valve and I wiggles in the guide! That's were the compression is going!


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

I see the seats are replaceable 
B&S 210940 and the guides. Is that something I can do or best take it to dealer? It looks like to me I can leave the Pistons in the block for this? By the book it's all done by hand I just don't have the "Briggs " tools


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

The valve that had .000" reading has a seat that has wallowed out,and dropped clearance. 
The new seat requires re-cutting the seat bore,which is best left to a machine shop.


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## flchevelleman (Feb 21, 2016)

Ok gentlemen NEW update;
Original motor valve has deep grove in it and guide is wallowed out.ordered factory valve, exhaust seat and guide. 
This motor is on the bench. 

Picked up another motor I/C pressure lube been setting for 10 plus years. Ect... For $150.
Brought home did compression test 145 psi each cylinder. Clean the carb, change the oil, filter. Start it and ran in bench, ran good;start/stop/run/ stop several times. No issues

Decided to put this motor in; change all shrouds, stator and flywheel , external fan on flywheel, oil pressure gauge ,change muffler,
govener/ throttle assembley / and put in mower.....
6 hours later all bolted in belts on hydro's hooked up, saftey switches all connected....
Fires right up 60 psi oil throttle works thru all ranges, shut off to put air cleaner assembly on try to restart and won't start!
Check for spark NO spark WHAT! I'm gonna shoot this thing with my 44 mag!

Next day walk up and starts, runs great put it thru its paces ( lots of power compared to old motor) turn off Try to restart starts but missing turn off and try to restart Won't start; check and no spark !!!!!!

The only thing I didn't put on was the coil! IDIOT! It ran so good on bench I thought to just keep that factory yellow coil on it. UGH 
Murphy's law got me again!


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

Geez!! you got a good motor and now this, you can't remove the shroud with the engine sitting insitu ?, that was most likely a stupid question !!, so looks like you have to do the remove again, don't you just love it !!.

I reckon if this was me I would be making a false shroud front over the electrics so I could get to the coil without having to remove the whole shebang.

Anyway, all the best for the 3rd ?? time around.

Regards


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