# Help, smoking is bad for you.



## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Worked the old girl pretty hard yesterday. Spent about two hours moving logs around my yard. Now my 8N has always smoked sence I have had it. My thought is that it had sat for a few years, and maybe something was just stuck in side, and it would work it self lose. Well, it has not. [OK not that I REALY thought it might] Now this thing had a rebuild about a year before the dealer I got it from, got it. It does look like it has been apart, is there something they may have done wrong? Some common, simple problem these motors have that cause the smoking? I REALY don;t want to pull the motor apart, but if I have to, I have to.


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## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

Do a compression test first --- dry then wet on all 4 cylinders, then you will at least have a good starting point as far as engine health. Chances are this "engine rebuild" might not have been as comprehensive as you might have thought. A compression tester (put throttle at full open --- replacing plug one a time with adapter --- looking for consistency between the cylinders) ---- I can help you fix this. Post the results such as:

CYLINDER # DRY WET



Andy


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Ya that was on my list of things to do. Now that the plow is off, I think I can fit it in my shop, so maby I will do that today. I got the tractor knowing it smoked, I was just kinda hoping it would clear. Luckly the price was real good, my dealer was just sick of moving it around, and knew I liked to fix things. I think the PO may have had a smoking problem, pulled the head, and pan, slapped a set of rings on it, and called it a day.


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## bear (Oct 20, 2003)

it could be the rings haven't seated yet. i know agco rings in the 354 perkins take quite a while to seat


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## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

A few years for the rings to seat?  

Now he might have a ring problem (oil getting past and smoking) but I thought he said it was rebuilt a year before he bought the tractor. With all of the other problems/repairs on the tractor, I would bet that he is looking for a real rebuild job and not the "rebuild" that was supposedly performed before the dealer got it. In any case, a compression test will certainly help out greatly. 

Andy


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

Unless the smoke is effecting the tractors performance to an unacceptable level and she it runnin' good and gets the job done; I am a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. Will the cost and labor of an engine rebuild be justified? That is a question you the owner/operator have to weigh. The compression check will definitely give you a good idea of the internal condition of the engine and will be good knowledge to have to allow you to make the decision to rebuild it or "fly it and watch it" (as we used to say in flight line mantenance) until you must correct the problem.


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## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

Good points Chief... I agree totally --- there are plenty of these 500,000+ 8Ns out there that are obviously not in "original specification" but they perform their tasks --- day in and day out.
If your oil pressure is good, then all is ok until you decide to jump into it. Good thing about these flat 4s is that the work and rebuild process is very easily and cheap. (complete rebuild kit for these engines -- top to bottom is around $300) plus any reboring/honing/machining work etc --- pretty darn reasonable for another 50 years of service!!!!    -- About $6 a year ---

:cheers:

Andy


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, I got it in the shop today. Oil is REAL bad. Lots of sludge also. I changed it when I got the tractor, and only have about 10 hours of running sence then, so I am going to change it, and see what happands. I am guessing that the last time it was changed, was during the rebuild. Last time I changed it, I used 30weight oil. Well, with the cold, I have some 10w40 going in it now. This will force me to change it agean come spring, for the thicker stuff.I am going to do a compression check later today, smoking is one thing, but if she has a dead cyl, or something, thats anouther. 

So we will see. Had her running alot this weekend, and seems to run better, the more I use it.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by admin _
> *A few years for the rings to seat?
> 
> Now he might have a ring problem (oil getting past and smoking) but I thought he said it was rebuilt a year before he bought the tractor. With all of the other problems/repairs on the tractor, I would bet that he is looking for a real rebuild job and not the "rebuild" that was supposedly performed before the dealer got it. In any case, a compression test will certainly help out greatly.
> ...


No it was done about a year before the dealer got it. They had it on the lot about 2 years. But ya, I would be suprised if there was not time for the rings to seat . Oh well, the skeeters, are not as bad sence I got it.


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## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *Well, I got it in the shop today. Oil is REAL bad. Lots of sludge also. I changed it when I got the tractor, and only have about 10 hours of running sence then, so I am going to change it, and see what happands. I am guessing that the last time it was changed, was during the rebuild. Last time I changed it, I used 30weight oil. Well, with the cold, I have some 10w40 going in it now. This will force me to change it agean come spring, for the thicker stuff.I am going to do a compression check later today, smoking is one thing, but if she has a dead cyl, or something, thats anouther.
> 
> So we will see. Had her running alot this weekend, and seems to run better, the more I use it. *


Yep --- sludge in the oil? Not generally very conducive for a good running engine. Sounds like it has been mistreated for quite some time. Yep --- keep in mind these things will run on 3 cylinders all day long.  ---- I have seen it very bad and still run as far as compression too --- so good luck with it!

Andy


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

Now don't laugh or call BS in this. mg: My Cub 154 Lo Boy owner's manual said to periodically mix in a quart of kerosene and let it run at idle for several minutes to help flush out sludge. It had a flat 4 also and a convection cooling system which made it prone to developing sludge. To keep this to a minimum it is best to change the oil no less than every 100 hours or at least annually which ever occurs first. I change mine every 50 hours. (probably over kill but cheap insurance) I would also suggest using a good quality heavy duty diesel oil which has a higher detergent and soot control additives instead of 10W-40 automotive oil. You can usually get oils like Shell Rotella T or Delo at wally world on sale at a good price. I use John Deere 15W-40 Plus 50. It is a sythetic blend oil (although I have my doubts about synthetic criteria) . I buy it in the 55 gallon drum and it costs about $1.29 per quart that way. This oil is made by Chevron for John Deere and is good stuff. I use it in my Cummins, Sea Ray, Nissan, and John Deere. I would also suggest that if you don't already and if you can find a part # filter to work; use Fleetguard oil filters. They are about the best out there. They also make oil filters for John Deere. Stay away from the el cheapo's and Fram filters. The trick to minimizing sludge build up is to get the engine up to full operating temp and keep it there for sustained periods as much as is reasonably possible and to regularly change the oil and filter at intervals which get the oil out before it has seriously deteriorated.


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## bear (Oct 20, 2003)

we had a 1135 when i worked at the dealer with about 80 hrs on it before the rings seated others would come back in and we'd put hastings rings in. one of the old mechanics there used to run a couple tablespoons of Bon-Ami through the air intake he claimed it helped seat the rings. looking back he may have had something he always used the agco rings and didn't have the comebacks the rest of us did.


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## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chief _
> *Now don't laugh or call BS in this. mg: My Cub 154 Lo Boy owner's manual said to periodically mix in a quart of kerosene and let it run at idle for several minutes to help flush out sludge. It had a flat 4 also and a convection cooling system which made it prone to developing sludge. To keep this to a minimum it is best to change the oil no less than every 100 hours or at least annually which ever occurs first. I change mine every 50 hours. (probably over kill but cheap insurance) I would also suggest using a good quality heavy duty diesel oil which has a higher detergent and soot control additives instead of 10W-40 automotive oil. You can usually get oils like Shell Rotella T or Delo at wally world on sale at a good price. I use John Deere 15W-40 Plus 50. It is a sythetic blend oil (although I have my doubts about synthetic criteria) . I buy it in the 55 gallon drum and it costs about $1.29 per quart that way. This oil is made by Chevron for John Deere and is good stuff. I use it in my Cummins, Sea Ray, Nissan, and John Deere. I would also suggest that if you don't already and if you can find a part # filter to work; use Fleetguard oil filters. They are about the best out there. They also make oil filters for John Deere. Stay away from the el cheapo's and Fram filters. The trick to minimizing sludge build up is to get the engine up to full operating temp and keep it there for sustained periods as much as is reasonably possible and to regularly change the oil and filter at intervals which get the oil out before it has seriously deteriorated. *



Some great advice there, Chief!!! 

Andy


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

That's good advice from the Chief. I suspect the rings are stuck and not rotating from what you have written so far. Kerosene or fuel oil and or, believe it or not, transmission fluid will help free things up. When I was wrenching on lift trucks many moons ago we would fill the crankcase with transmission fluid and run for a while (no load) and then drain. Amazing what crap comes out of a neglected engine.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

I did that. Put a bottle of marvel mistory oil in saterday, and ran it sunday. Probably where most of the sludge came from.


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## Chris (Sep 15, 2003)

I have used MMO just make sure you do a nice fresh oil change shortly thereafter --- it will like most good HD oils remove alot of sludge and then you have a clogged oil pickup leading to an engine with no oil pressure and then BOOOOOOM! ---- no engine due to lack of lubrication.... not good. 

Add the MMO, then flush it (after getting the engine warm and up to temp -- preferably under load for some time)

HTH,
Andy


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## parts man (Sep 24, 2003)

Ingersoll, I noticed that you had only run the engine about 10 hours since you got it, and that you said it runs better all the time. I wouldn't doubt that the rings could be stuck some, if you do the oil change after the MMO, and run her some more it may come out of it some.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by parts man _
> *Ingersoll, I noticed that you had only run the engine about 10 hours since you got it, and that you said it runs better all the time. I wouldn't doubt that the rings could be stuck some, if you do the oil change after the MMO, and run her some more it may come out of it some. *


I sure hope so. I realy don;t have the time, or cash for a rebuild this year. May just run it till encon shows up at the door. 

Plus it would be money better spent on the NEXT tractor.[there is always the "next" tractor ]


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

My local John Deere dealer will try running a second change of break-in oil if a new piece of equipment comes back for ring break-in problems. It is not a guarantee it will cure the problem but in many cases it does. I am not sure how many hours are on your engine since rebuild or weather running a fill of break-in oil will benefit you, but it might be a long shot worth a try. It is no miracle oil but it may help those rings get seated if that is the problem. angel Take a look and see what you think. I would think you can buy a break-in oil at other than a John Deere dealer or the dealer you purchased the tractor from may be able to help you out there. 

Break-in engine oil


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, pulled all the plugs out last night, and was going to do a compression check on the motor. Guess what> My tester will not work on this tractor. The fuel tank is in the way, and my tester will not screw into the motor. Oh well, what can you do. I checked out the plugs pretty good, Lots of carbon on them, and the center two were pritty wet. All seem to be burning though, and I know most inline engines with one carb, seem to have the center two plugs wetter then the rest. Add that to the fact that I have realy not worked it hard yet, and it mostly gets just short runs, and it all makes sence.


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## parts man (Sep 24, 2003)

Ingersoll, I'd keep an eye on those plugs, and maybe change them out.We bought an 8N that wasn't running well and smoked BAD. We drained the oil ( our first step in a dismantle) and noticed it smelled like gas in a big way, so started checking things out. Found that 2 plugs were dead and gas was not being burnt so went down by the rings. We put on 2 good plugs and fresh oil. Once the old oil got burned out of the cylinders and exhaust system it cleaned up and ran great!! We took it apart any way though and was a good thing, because the extended runining with gas in the oil had worn the bearings.

Just some thing to look out for.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by parts man _
> *Ingersoll, I'd keep an eye on those plugs, and maybe change them out.We bought an 8N that wasn't running well and smoked BAD. We drained the oil ( our first step in a dismantle) and noticed it smelled like gas in a big way, so started checking things out. Found that 2 plugs were dead and gas was not being burnt so went down by the rings. We put on 2 good plugs and fresh oil. Once the old oil got burned out of the cylinders and exhaust system it cleaned up and ran great!! We took it apart any way though and was a good thing, because the extended runining with gas in the oil had worn the bearings.
> 
> Just some thing to look out for. *


Thanks for the tip. I did change them when I got it, but will probably do it agean when I put the new wires on. I don't mind SOME smokeing, but would like to be able to see the cutter, when I start bushwacking.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, used the tractor for a few hours today pulling some logs. Could be me, but I think the smoke was getting lighter. Also seeing now, that some of the smoke is pretty black. Time for a carb rebuild. Wounder if running rich it causing the cylinders to wash down, losing there ring seal. The oil is a little gas smelling. So maybe it will clear up. Lets hope. Also it seems to run pretty cool. In 50deg wether, should you feel some warmth from the engine? Wounder if the PO removed the Tstat? Well, I guess you have to expect stuff like this on something over 50 years old.


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

If your smelling a little gas in your oil that could be a stuck float. With fuel diluting your oil that could make it rough on the cylinder walls. Do you have a fuel shutoff?


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

Doesn't it have a side or updraft carb?


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## parts man (Sep 24, 2003)

If you smell gas in your oil it's time to change it, FAST! The gas dilutes the oil so that the bearings wear damaging you crank. Try to find the cause of the gas in the oil, and keep a close eye on it for gas smell, or increase level on dipstick.
The diluted oil will also cause smoke from oil getting up past the rings.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, I changed it last week, and put maybe 4 hours on it this weekend, and no gas smell this time, but the old oil did. 

Argee,
Ya it does have a shutoff, and I always close it when it is not running

I did have a problem with a stuck flote earlyer this winter, but it only happanded once. Carb has a lot of varnash on the out side of it, probably from leaking gaskets, so I will rebuild it.


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