# Ford 3500 industrial loader model 735 issues



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Here's a follow up on an earlier post. I have a 3500 industrial T/L/B. After working on the loader portion ( right reservoir was removed for weld repair ) the loader has lost strength as it cannot pickup the front end of the tractor. Yes, the cylinders were worked to get the air out. Yes, the lines and connections were checked for no leaks. At that time I concluded that the seal in one or both of the lift cylinders had failed and thus I had them both repacked.
The repacked cylinders were replaced and the repacked cylinders re-installed. 
The tractor has the same symptoms, no loader strength. I won't pick up the front end. I've als noticed that the loader slowly descends when up all the way. I would expect some of that.

Anyway back to the immediate issue of lack of power to the loader. (yes, the backhoe has power I do not suspect the fluid pressure).
The only other component I can imagine causing an issue is the control valve assembly. Does anyone reading this listing either concur or disagree with me on this?
The assembly does make noise when I try to lift the front end. 
Could a pressure relief valve be causing this? 
This is a model 735 in a 1966 year tractor. The valve assembly mounts to a plate that is welded to the right side frame/reservoir. I am not sure of the Ford model no. of this assembly. I believe it is a Group 8-1 assembly and not an 8-3 assembly. This does not have float in it.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Put a 3000 PSI Gage on the main boom lift cylinder to check pressure. I believe you should get about 2300 psi . This will indicate if your pressure relief valve is faulty since you already rebuilt the cylinders.


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Ok Dozer966, I put a gauge on one of the lift cylinder lines. The max pressure I saw was about 1400. The pressure typically varied from 400 to about 1200 and would drop to 000 on occasion - yes the overpressure opened and stayed open.
I took the relief valve apart and found 5 spacers and two washers packed into it. FWIW the spring itself measured 1.19 inches. So, being a tyical backyarder I put another washer into the mix which raised the pressure to about 2000, kinda high. The cylinders did lift the tractor, however there is still something amiss.
I ran the loader and bucket through several full range motions, don't believe I have issues with the bucket but I still did it. 
The bucket will raise the tractor however the lift cylinders don't stay in place, they move thus lowering the tractor again.
The lift cylinders will lift the tractor but it won't stay up, comes down quickly.
I notice that when the bucket is fully lifted it slowly lowers, probably be totally down within 5 minutes. 
There are no leaks visible at any cylinder bore/connection or any lines. I don't want to suspect bad seals in the cylinders as they were just done. The relief valve is out of this circuit, shouldn't have any effect on not holding position.
There are no seals in the valve assembly I see that can affect this either. 
The only thing I see is a check valve that could be the issue.

My concerns here are the pressure to the cylinders. I expect I will have to replace the spring and remove some of the shims/washers to get the nominal 1900 psi. I don't see any criteria for the spring, is 1.19 inches in the replace range? 
The check valve is metal/metal from what I see. If this is an issue what would be the typical service procedure?


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

I am looking for the relief spring for this loader and have had no luck anywhere, even the Ford/NH dealer.
I believe the present spring has weakened to the point where the spacers required to get the pressure will not fit in the assembly!
Does anyone know of any spring that can be used as a replacement for this spring (p/n 291974)
The O rings I found!


----------



## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Hi Nate. Sorry iv been away and could not reply. Did you get things sorted out.


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Well, I've made progress on this thing. First off let me just say that anyone who is retired and has nothing to do should buy an old tractor or T/L/B or whatever configuration speaks to them. They will always have something to do - even if only talking about it.
So, The gauges read overpressure when I put two spacers in, I took one out and haven't restarted the tractor yet because the starter finally died.
I have a new starter, haven't put it in yet due to weather and time.
When I last used the tractor with spacers in it lifted the front end with no problem.
I am actually wondering if the tractor somehow needed to be used and if that wasn't the issue all along. I guess I'll never know for sure.
The overpressure spring: Don't know if I really need another one. I know there isn't much clearance in there with the spacers installed but it is still working. The loader has a good amount of power.

As long as it is down I'm putting new terminal ends on the battery cables and changing the battery clamps to a bolt on configuration. The wires for the charging circuit don't exist, I may rewire it at this time - or shortly as I do want to use it before snow flies. I've been keeping a trickle charge on the battery to keep it up and I have a large charger for when it does get run down and needs a full charge.

Also should straighten out the battery tray, it is bent but fixable.
I haven't gotten to the cold start circuit yet, this has the air intake heater on it. I want to clean it off some before I fool with that.

Great project machine. Former owner should never have owned it, he didn't bother with the maintenance it needed - even the simple stuff. It is getting better just taking time. When it works it does a great job of digging.
I've even found a person who has chains for it - the tires are worn so I'll need them, I have a slope out back.
Any thoughts on cleaning the engine? I though just spraying on some degreaser, letting it set for a while then spray it down with a hand held sprayer - hope it's forceful enough I don't want to use the HP washer I have it'll need


----------



## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Sounds like you have a handle on things so that's good. Keep us posted on your progress


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Since last posting I realized the starter was the problem so I put a new one on. Before that I checked the battery for water and all cells were low so I added distilled water to cover the plates.
It took longer than anticipated to get the battery cable ends changed and new terminals put on. 

For some reason I decided to measure the battery voltage, it was about 10v, I figured my added of water weakened the acid and affected the voltage. None the less I decided to try out the new starter.
It makes one heck of a gnashing noise. 
This resulted in several questions I have to myself.
One, was the low battery voltage the cause of the noise?
two, could the starter be the wrong one, or require a shim?
three, am I damaging the flywheel? I didn't apply power long, just seconds.

I am sure the starter is the one made for the tractor, the place I bought it from has supplied a lot of Ford starters for those vintage tractors. Model no. of the starter is 16680n and its cross reference includes the 60's Ford 3500 diesel.
I am not familiar with starters using any kind of a shim between it and the block unless you remove one with the original starter - there was none.
I would believe that any adjustments within the new starter would have been preset.

I am left with two thoughts. Either low battery voltage is the cause or the starter itself is bad.

dozer966 and pogobill, any comments on this? I intend to fully charge the battery and hit it again for a few seconds to see if the noise is still there. 
It'll take a while to charge the battery, it is raining and I won't charge it in the rain.

As I say, tractors are the gifts that keep on giving. Always something to do, always something more you can do. If you're bored and want something to do -- buy an old tractor.


----------



## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Well Nate, I'm not an automotive electrical guy, but I do think Dozer would be more of an asset to solving your problem. 
That being said, I don't think the low voltage would give you the gnashing noise. I'm concerned that maybe the starter / flywheel gears are not meshing, or perhaps the starter drive isn't sending the out far enough to mesh properly. Did you perhaps get a chance to compare the two starter gears before you installed the new starter?


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

That would have been sensible now wouldn't it!
I left the starter at the motor shop, it was torn down before the new one came in.
I do have the old one now, but it is not together! I can take the new one out again and compare the gears. 
May have to do that. I notice what appears to be an adjustment near the nose, not sure if this sets the limit the gear travels. There is a cammed screw in the nose!
The thing that makes this an issue is that there is a loader frame on this, difficult to get to the mounting bolts - but that is part of the charm of old tractors.


----------



## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

I feel your pain with the loader . I also have to take the fuel filter assembly out to get to it.
The Bendix assembly should bolt right on to the new starter if it's the wrong one. Personally I never buy new starters and alternators. I take them to my local alternator and starter shop for rebuild. They do a bench test and only change affected parts. Usually only cost about 20 to 40$. For your battery do a full charge on it and then pop the covers off each cell. Take a volt meter and put one end on negative post and other in the acid of each cell. Each cell should read 2.2 volts.if one is lower then 2 volts you have a bad battery.
You said you changed the cable ends did you check the resistance on the cable. It could be corroded inside the cable which would cause a drop in voltage.

This is what I would check first . Others might have suggestions that I might have not thought about.


----------



## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Try the starter with a fully charged battery.


When you engage a starter under normal conditions, the solenoid first pushes the gear on to the engine's starter ring. When it is positioned there, the starter motor is electrically engaged and the gear drives the engine.

If you try to start with a battery as low as 10V, the solenoid makes the first move, you hear a click.
A starter motor draws a high current, especially when it starts. The 10V battery has not got enough "oumpf" to deliver the current, so it reacts like it has been short circuited. Short circuit means that the voltage drops drastically, which leads to that the solenoid releases. When the solenoid releases, the starter motor is electrically disconnected, the voltage comes back, the solenoid pulls again and the drama starts all over again.

The solenoid and it's return spring acts like a very fast flasher relay, or an electrical horn.
You will hear a click every time the solenoid reaches it ends of travel. It may sound like a woodpecker, an impact gun, a horn from a T-Ford....


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Thank you both for your input. 
The new battery terminals are what I call military style. I cut the old molded terminals from each cable and had a 'ring' style terminal crimped on the ends, the copper was clean - cut back from any corrosion. 
The battery is one of the large industrial styles, the only cathode I have available to me is the battery's negative terminal, but I could still check the voltage increase from cell to cell. I would do that after charging. 

The current draw vs the voltage drop makes perfect sense. Causing the bendix to not fully engage also makes sense. 
I plan to charge it tomorrow, the cells all took a lot of water which surprised me but that was the way it was and I just filled them at that time. 

Dozer966, moving the fuel filter and contorting ones fingers seem to be requirements for changing that starter. Also, I did keep the old starter that the garage did not want to fool with. We had several rebuild shops in this area 10 years ago - things have changed a lot. If I could get the parts I could rebuild it, something I should have thought more about. The only thing I don't have is the undercutter for the armature but if you are careful with a hacksaw blade it can be done, if it needs it.
Old starter is very oily which helped my decision to replace it. I don't have a parts cleaner and they too are getting scarce in this area. 

Hopefully I can update this tomorrow with positive results, time will tell.

When that runs it does a good job!


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

So, the battery was charged up and the noise remains.
Next step is removing the new starter, look it over and take it from there.


----------



## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

Could it be a damage on the gear ring on the flywheel?
Turn the engine a little bit by hand and try the starter again.

What are the numbers on the old starter?
Does the new one sound weird if you run it taken off the tractor?
Are the new and old having the same number of teeth on the gear (10)?

There should not be any adjusting nedeed. The only thing you can adjust is the pivot of the fork that the solenoid pulls. Check that the gear comes out when you run the starter without being pushed/jammed against the metal. It should be adjusted correctly from factory. There is a shaft that the fork rotates around and it has an excentrical mounting. There is a locking nut and a slot in the shaft for the adjustment.


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Well the starter came out with its usual arguing and complaining but it came out.
The flywheel teeth show very slight burrs, no material missing, no nicks but there is a small section that has burred teeth. A file can take care of the burrs.
The motor itself I took back to where I bought it. I am wondering if the solenoid works on it. Very strange circumstances!
Yes, there are 10 teeth on the gear. Both starters mirror each other.
I haven't found numbers on the original starter but I did notice that the solenoid body is cracked next to one of its terminals.
I'll add more when I know more. Hopefully tomorrow! Maybe the weather will even allow me to get this going this week - unless I'm called to work. I am on call now, retired but will go to locations if called.


----------



## NateOakes (Nov 13, 2016)

Problem resolved. I discussed this with the starter supplier several times. As noted before this model starter is common used on many Fords. That said it is also an aftermarket unit.
As a last resort I decided to loosen the bolts, pry out on the starter and retighten the bolts. This would put the starting gear teeth at their outermost location on the flywheel.
Wouldn't you know it, the problem is one of tolerances. When I did this the gears engaged and the motor turned over. 
I am more frustrated that anything else from this experience. I can understand tolerance stack up and variations from mfr to mfr. 
Being involved in QA I have little respect for the mfr whoever it is, I'll probably never know there's nothing to ID any specific plant. 
The least that the mfr could do would be to provide a notice with the motor that this might be necessary - if they are even aware of the situation. 

I thank all of you who have responded to this thread. I would expect that you have had similar experience with other aftermarket parts, well starters are also in this mix.


----------

