# MF205 hard starting... trying to remedy.



## hd883chopper

Hello all, just bought a mid-80’s model Massey Ferguson MF205 diesel 2wd and the tractor is in pretty good shape as far as I can tell. It just seems that I have to keep turning the key and turning the starter quite a bit to get it fired up.

I turn the key to the left and allow the glow plug to light up for a about 5 seconds, then I’ll put the idle control low but not all the way down. I’m clutching in and turning the key to start. It will take 5 or 6 attempts of cranking on the starter to get it fired up. I know it’s not going to fire up as easily as my truck but I feel like they’ll come a day where I crank on it so much I kill the battery before it starts. Should the idle be set higher? Or at it’s lowest? Should I be pressing on the gas while cranking? Sigh...

Once it’s running, no hiccups and it’s fairly easy to restart if I shut it down for a bit and come back.

I appreciate any advice you all may have.
Thanks!
Hd


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## pogobill

Not sure how cold it is in Louisiana,but either you need to make sure you are giving it a good bit of heat, a good 5 to 8 seconds, and then crank it over, or check to see if your glow plugs are actually working.


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## bbirder

Seems that is a diesel engine model. First, is there a compression release and are you using it? 2nd, Make sure your battery is up to it. It has to spin fast enough to start. Lastly, have you checked the compression. A stuck ring or two would make it hard to start cold. Try giving it a little more fuel while cranking. Good luck.


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## hd883chopper

pogobill said:


> Not sure how cold it is in Louisiana,but either you need to make sure you are giving it a good bit of heat, a good 5 to 8 seconds, and then crank it over, or check to see if your glow plugs are actually working.


Not very cold yet. Only 40’s or so. I kept the key turned for 30 seconds warming up the glow plug light but it wouldn’t fire up. It would crank very well but only kick out a bunch of smoke. Every few tries, it would attempt to start but nothing. It’s new to me because I’ve only had it a few days, but it did start up for me the other day. A little hard but I was able to get it going. But tonight, it was not happening. 
I pulled the glow plugs and put an Ohms meter on each one. One lead touching each end of the plug and it just went to infinity or constantly trying to get a number. Seemed odd to me.


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## hd883chopper

bbirder said:


> Seems that is a diesel engine model. First, is there a compression release and are you using it? 2nd, Make sure your battery is up to it. It has to spin fast enough to start. Lastly, have you checked the compression. A stuck ring or two would make it hard to start cold. Try giving it a little more fuel while cranking. Good luck.


Yes it is a diesel. 1.1L / 2 Cylinder Toyosha diesel. 
Forgive my ignorance but the compression release must be the metal lever that I push in when starting it. And I pull it out when killing it. I wasn’t sure what it was called.

The battery is only a few months old and is strong enough to crank on this tractor about 6 or 7 times before getting a little weak. So I think I’m good there, BUT it’s a good point and I’ll check the CCA to be sure they’re high enough. 

I haven’t run a compression check but I’ll see if I can scrouge up a gauge and check it for sure. Question... regarding giving it more fuel, is is better to increase the idle speed lever? Or just press on the foot pedal or does it matter?

Just to add, some things I had read was saying that worn glow plugs could also cause similar issues. After putting the Ohm meter on each one individually, the reading was all over the place and seemed to indicate a problem. I ordered 2 new plugs and when they arrive I’ll install them and try again. Thanks for the advice as I will check compression and the battery CCA. Thx!


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## RC Wells

If you disconnected each glow plug, tested continuity of each, then those not zero are bad.

Set your throttle about a quarter open to start. As soon as the engine starts return the throttle to idle. These were designed to run on diesel fuel that had a higher specific gravity than the fuel of today. So we need slightly higher throttle settings for cold starting.

The last major diesel formulation change was in 2007 and resulted in a dry fuel which needs a lubricity improver added. The diesel of today also allows the fuel to grow algae much easier, and fuel filters get dirty faster.

Use a fuel additive to increase lubricity and keep moisture and algae at bay. WalMart carries Power Service products at reasonable prices, but there are many to choose from at tractor dealerships, truck stops, etc.


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## thepumpguysc

The glow plugs are VERY EASY to test if u don't have a meter but DO HAVE a small battery charger & the plugs are out of the engine..
Just hook the top spade up to + & clamp the - to the body... turn on 12v & count the seconds till it gets red hot.. probably less that 8-10.
Now CAREFULLY set it aside & do the other one.. just remember IT WAS RED/WHITE HOT.
RC is correct on the throttle position.. bump it up past idle..
The correct starting procedure is> to pull the compression release until the engine is spinning fast, THEN let go.. it should start..
also> it is not the engine shut down!!!! shut off is achieved by pulling the throttle past idle.. good luck w/ your new toy.


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## bbirder

I think if you use the compression release as thepumpguysc stated, you will find that the engine starts for you. You have to get that engine spinning faster to start.


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## hd883chopper

RC Wells said:


> If you disconnected each glow plug, tested continuity of each, then those not zero are bad.


Ok great so at least I know I'm reading the meter correctly. I tested each plug with a tester lead on each side and it did not read zero. The digital meter was jumping all around and would not settle on a number, so that would indicate bad glow plugs if I understand correctly. 2 on order and I'll install when they get here. Hope this is it!



RC Wells said:


> Set your throttle about a quarter open to start. As soon as the engine starts return the throttle to idle. These were designed to run on diesel fuel that had a higher specific gravity than the fuel of today. So we need slightly higher throttle settings for cold starting.


 Great so 1/4 idle throttle and no need to hit the foot pedal for fuel. Thx!



RC Wells said:


> The last major diesel formulation change was in 2007 and resulted in a dry fuel which needs a lubricity improver added. The diesel of today also allows the fuel to grow algae much easier, and fuel filters get dirty faster. Use a fuel additive to increase lubricity and keep moisture and algae at bay. WalMart carries Power Service products at reasonable prices, but there are many to choose from at tractor dealerships, truck stops, etc.


 This makes a lot of sense and I was wondering the other day about this since I currently use Stanadyne in my diesel p/u for the same reasons. Thx!


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## hd883chopper

thepumpguysc said:


> The correct starting procedure is> to pull the compression release until the engine is spinning fast, THEN let go.. it should start..
> also> it is not the engine shut down!!!! shut off is achieved by pulling the throttle past idle.. good luck w/ your new toy.





bbirder said:


> I think if you use the compression release as thepumpguysc stated, you will find that the engine starts for you. You have to get that engine spinning faster to start.


Thank you both for bringing up the compression release. This probably seems so elementary to you all but I have never owned a machine requiring this. I've attached a pic of a similar model so I could ask some additional questions. I'm guessing the compression release is this metal rod under my key? It has a ring on it and allows me to push it in or pull it out. The guy I bought it from had a different procedure to start and stop this tractor than what's explained above, so maybe I need to adopt Thepumpguysc's method instead.

The method the previous owner (who admitted this was his first tractor too) said that I should do the following to start: Ensure the neutral position, turn key left for 5 seconds until the glow light is lit, pull that metal ring/rod out, clutch in and turn key until it starts. Once started your good, leave pull ring out. 

To stop: Go to neutral, turn key left to off position, then push ring/rod in and it will shut down.

I feel like I'm missing a major step here or not using the compression release correctly. Assuming this ring/rod thing is in-fact the compression release.

Total newbie questions ya'll and I so appreciate any of your advice!


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## bbirder

This might be a good investment for you.

https://www.repairmanual.com/produc...5-mf2745-mf2775-mf2805-service-manual-mf-202/


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## hd883chopper

bbirder said:


> This might be a good investment for you.
> 
> https://www.repairmanual.com/produc...5-mf2745-mf2775-mf2805-service-manual-mf-202/


Indeed Sir! Ordered one last night because I've got a lot to learn


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## RC Wells

I believe the pull rod is the fuel injection shut off. Hinomoto/Toyosha built tractors used a manual injection pump shut down like the old Perkins engined Masseys. 

Double check where the rod connects on the engine, and verify if it connects to the injection pump.

When you get it running, pick up some diesel fuel injection cleaner and treat the fuel with that at the stated rate for initial cleaning. The injectors build up coke on the cylinder ends and will no longer spray a good pattern, and cause hard starting too. Do NOT remove and attempt to brush clean the injectors, that can damage the tips.


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## hd883chopper

RC Wells said:


> I believe the pull rod is the fuel injection shut off. Hinomoto/Toyosha built tractors used a manual injection pump shut down like the old Perkins engined Masseys.
> 
> Double check where the rod connects on the engine, and verify if it connects to the injection pump.


Thanks and yep I think your right. That’s the injection pump. Hard lines feed the injectors and also lead to the tank. With the rod “in” , it tried to start for me this morning but couldn’t get it to get going. In the pic, my thumb is on the rod and index finger on the pump. 

It was seemingly running well the other day after I got it home. Even started up fine the next day....


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## hd883chopper

OK so good news I was able to get it to start! Going down the road of a possible fuel issue or fuel air / mixture issue as posted above I checked a few things. So when I loosened the bleeder valve on the injection pump, while simultaneously cranking the engine over, it fired up. Then after it was running I closed that bleeder valve essentially tightening up that screw and then it killed. What could that mean? You certainly can’t run and operate the tractor with the bleeder valve open. But why would the tractor killed on me as soon as I closed the bleeder valve?

After a few times of trying to close it and it trying to die, it finally stayed running. Could this be an injector issue perhaps? On a hunch, I pulled the rubber return vacuum hose that connects the injectors back to the fuel tank and I expected to see more fuel spitting out of there. I wonder if the injectors are operating correctly...


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## bbirder

The fuel system needs to bled all the way to the injectors. When your manual arrives it should have detailed instructions on how to do that. I hesitate to give you instructions not being familiar with that model although once you've done one they are essentially the same for all. Basically, start at the fuel tank and crack lines and bleed until all air is out thru the filter, injector pump then each injector. Question-- when you started removing glow plugs did you loosen any fuel lines? Have you changed the fuel filter?


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## hd883chopper

bbirder said:


> The fuel system needs to bled all the way to the injectors. When your manual arrives it should have detailed instructions on how to do that. I hesitate to give you instructions not being familiar with that model although once you've done one they are essentially the same for all. Basically, start at the fuel tank and crack lines and bleed until all air is out thru the filter, injector pump then each injector. Question-- when you started removing glow plugs did you loosen any fuel lines? Have you changed the fuel filter?


Thx bbirder, when I removed the glow plugs I did not have to loosen or manipulate any of the fuel lines. However, after testing those and seeing them glow, I reinstalled them, then started looking at potential fuel causes for my problem. 

I first checked to see if I had good gravity fed fuel flow when the petcock was on and the fuel filter was off. I did have good flow. Changed the filter while I was there. Then I cracked open the bleeder screw on the injector pump. Some bubbles then fuel dribbled out. Then disconnected the fuel lines from the top of the injectors. Did not see anything visually wrong. Reinstalled fuel lines to top of injectors. At this point I figured I had to crank the engine to push any air out of the system, so I cranked on it while the bleeder was open and loose. That’s when it started! I closed the bleeder meaning tightened it up and it died. Repeated this twice more, each time it died when I closed the bleeder. Next time I left it open while it warmed up, after a couple of min I was able to close the bleeder and test drove it. All seeed good. Would even idle great a super low rpms. Turned it off and was able to refire. Unsure exactly what the issue but it’s likely to surface again. I don’t believe I actually fixed anything.


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## pogobill

Hmmm... odd!?! Perhaps you had a little air in the system and bleeding the system at the injector pump while running may have bled the remainder of the air out. If it keeps starting, you should be alright. You need to bleed the system if you remove or replace the fuel filter, or run out of fuel.


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## bbirder

You probably had air between the filter and injection pump after changing filter. Luckily with just two cylinders you worked the air out. You should be good to go.


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## hd883chopper

bbirder said:


> You probably had air between the filter and injection pump after changing filter. Luckily with just two cylinders you worked the air out. You should be good to go.


I sure hope so! I’ll know tomorrow when I go to fire it up again. If it won’t start, I guess I’ll have to crack that bleeder screw again to get her going. If that happens, I’ll really be scratching my head.

Fuel question... if I pull the return hose (the small ones that go from the injectors back to the tank) should I see fuel dripping out? I alway thought this was the excess fuel that the injector didn’t need. Since I don’t see any fuel coming out, could I be dumping more fuel into the chamber than is necessary?


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## RC Wells

Some of these Toyosha tractors have flexible hoses from the tank to the filter, and on to the injection pump. The hose compound used back then is not compatible with diesel formulated after 2007, and they develop microscopic pin holes that allows air into the system. They will look dry, but still allow air in the system.

If the problem persists, change the fuel feed hoses.


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## hd883chopper

RC Wells said:


> Some of these Toyosha tractors have flexible hoses from the tank to the filter, and on to the injection pump. The hose compound used back then is not compatible with diesel formulated after 2007, and they develop microscopic pin holes that allows air into the system. They will look dry, but still allow air in the system.
> If the problem persists, change the fuel feed hoses.


Great info and advice! Thanks. I’ll definitely do that as it’s one of those super cheap things that can’t hurt to do anyway. 
Can you tell me if those hoses carry fuel back to the tank under normal circumstances? When I pulled them today, I did not see any fuel running through them. Just wondering if pulling the hose while it’s running should result in some fuel drip or flow from them. Thx!


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## thepumpguysc

Don't worry 1 second about the small return hoses.. some return a lot & some return alittle.. u have a 2 cylinder diesel that doesn't return a lot.. don't give it a second thought.
On starting.. hold the throttle mid ways open.. run the glow plugs for 10-20 seconds, THEN try to start it.. if it doesn't fire off.. repeat.. IF by the 2nd or 3rd time it doesn't start.. start looking for problems{air}


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## hd883chopper

RC Wells said:


> Some of these Toyosha tractors have flexible hoses from the tank to the filter, and on to the injection pump. The hose compound used back then is not compatible with diesel formulated after 2007, and they develop microscopic pin holes that allows air into the system. They will look dry, but still allow air in the system.
> 
> If the problem persists, change the fuel feed hoses.


Sound advice so I went ahead and replaced both hoses. The one from the petcock valve to the filter and the one from the filter to the injection pump. New NAPA fuel lines with new hose clamps but unfortunately no difference in starting. Still had to crack open the bleeder valve to get her going. Man running this thing down is crazy. I feel like it's something simple, I just can't seem to find it. It's funny though, once she's warmed up I can close that bleeder and she runs like a top. Even allows me to shut it down and refire without any issues...


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## hd883chopper

thepumpguysc said:


> Don't worry 1 second about the small return hoses.. some return a lot & some return alittle.. u have a 2 cylinder diesel that doesn't return a lot.. don't give it a second thought.
> On starting.. hold the throttle mid ways open.. run the glow plugs for 10-20 seconds, THEN try to start it.. if it doesn't fire off.. repeat.. IF by the 2nd or 3rd time it doesn't start.. start looking for problems{air}


Thanks and good to know that these plugs need about 20 sec of prime. Thankfully I've been doing that pretty much. Finding where this air issue is crazy. I just replaced the fuel lines from the tank to the filter and the filter to the injection pump. Only thing left are the two hard lines for the fuel leading from the injector pump to the injectors themselves...


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## RC Wells

Is this tractor fitted with a sediment bowl on the bottom of the tank? If so replace the seal between the glass bowl and the fitting in the tank. Some of those also had a petcock on the tank valve. That may need a new O ring.

If it has the replaceable cartridge in the plastic housing under a fuel valve, the O ring on the valve may require replacement. The seal on the plastic filter housing should have been replaced when the filter was, and it is advisable to make sure an old seal is not stuck up in the metal part of the housing.

Some of the 205's had a lift pump that looked like this:









Those pumps have diaphragms that crack and allow air infiltration, the main body gasket fails, and the seal above the sediment bowl gets old and cracks.


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## thepumpguysc

Don't replace the 2 hard lines from the pump to the injectors.. they have nothing to do w/ your current problem.
You know what u could do>> go to walmart & go to the boating section & get a primer bulb & install it.. pump the bulb & force fuel up to the inj. pump & start it..
It might just work?? AND it has the added protection of a 1 way check valve built in it to keep the fuel from "back bleeding" to the tank.. just make sure the line ends are the same size.


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## thepumpguysc

Don't replace the 2 hard lines from the pump to the injectors.. they have nothing to do w/ your current problem.
You know what u could do>> go to walmart & go to the boating section & get a primer bulb & install it.. pump the bulb & force fuel up to the inj. pump & start it..
It might just work?? AND it has the added protection of a 1 way check valve built in it to keep the fuel from "back bleeding" to the tank.. just make sure the line ends are the same size.


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## pogobill

thepumpguysc said:


> Don't replace the 2 hard lines from the pump to the injectors.. they have nothing to do w/ your current problem.
> You know what u could do>> go to walmart & go to the boating section & get a primer bulb & install it.. pump the bulb & force fuel up to the inj. pump & start it..
> It might just work?? AND it has the added protection of a 1 way check valve built in it to keep the fuel from "back bleeding" to the tank.. just make sure the line ends are the same size.


Could work! I did that on my Argo, as the battery would just about drain before the darn thing would fire. Put the bulb on and primed the fuel pump before trying to start. Could be a short term fix while hd883chopper sorts out the issue.


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## hd883chopper

Oh boy, I'm about to show some mechanical ignorance here. Standby 


RC Wells said:


> Is this tractor fitted with a sediment bowl on the bottom of the tank? If so replace the seal between the glass bowl and the fitting in the tank. Some of those also had a petcock on the tank valve. That may need a new O ring.


I'm embarrassed to say I don't know if it has a sediment bowl. I would think that there is some very low spot in the fuel tank that sediment can fall to without the gravity line pulling into the petcock, but I don't know. So the sediment bowl would be glass? I suppose allowing the operator to see the amount of trash build up. I'll look under the tank today to see if I see anything but I don't recall seeing anything like that to date.



RC Wells said:


> If it has the replaceable cartridge in the plastic housing under a fuel valve, the O ring on the valve may require replacement. The seal on the plastic filter housing should have been replaced when the filter was, and it is advisable to make sure an old seal is not stuck up in the metal part of the housing.


 No cartridge or filter under the petcock fuel valve. The petcock is fixed directly to the tank bottom with just a small nipple fitting. Then the output on the petcock goes straight to the fuel filter via rubber fuel hose. I've never seen a petcock that has a replaceable cartridge in it, but they could absolutely be out there.



RC Wells said:


> Some of the 205's had a lift pump. Those pumps have diaphragms that crack and allow air infiltration, the main body gasket fails, and the seal above the sediment bowl gets old and cracks.


Now this is certainly possible. Once again, I'm embarrassed to say I'm not sure if it has a lift pump. If it did and it's failing, that could answer all of this. What would the general location of the lift pump be? I don't recall seeing anything with a glass bowl for viewing on this machine. My repair manual isn't in yet but once it arrives that will help.
Thank you for taking the time to help me diagnose this.

By the way, yesterday around 3pm I finally got it started again, using the damn bleeder screw ofcourse. Ran it for 45 min or so. Last night on a whim, around 8pm I went out to the shed and tried to fire it up. Knowing it would be nice and cold, I was curious. Wouldn't you know it fired right up. I wonder if running it earlier pressurized everything and it hadn't had time to completely decompress. Now 10am the next day, I'm going to try again. Sigh...


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## hd883chopper

thepumpguysc said:


> You know what u could do>> go to walmart & go to the boating section & get a primer bulb & install it.. pump the bulb & force fuel up to the inj. pump & start it..
> It might just work?? AND it has the added protection of a 1 way check valve built in it to keep the fuel from "back bleeding" to the tank.. just make sure the line ends are the same size.


Now that is a great idea. That would ensure that enough fuel is getting to the injector pump by force. But if this is a gravity fed system, shouldn't force be unnecessary? Low pressure in... then the pump pressurizes it for the injectors right?
Is back bleeding to the tank an issue sometimes? I guess that would starve the injector pump for sure.


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## hd883chopper

pogobill said:


> Could work! I did that on my Argo, as the battery would just about drain before the darn thing would fire. Put the bulb on and primed the fuel pump before trying to start. Could be a short term fix while hd883chopper sorts out the issue.


Pogobill - did you ever find your issue of why it wouldn't crank up? Was the injector pump just starved for fuel on start up?


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## hd883chopper

I'm now at a total loss gentlemen. It's 10am local time here, the last time I started it was 14 hrs ago, 8pm last night. She was stone cold.... First crank and she's off to the races. What the heck? I should be happy but now I'm wondering did the problem get worked out? Or is it just hiding for now. This is me pulling my hair out - LOL


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## RC Wells

Took me a bit of time to catch up my projects today, but I finally got time and ran the 205 Japanese built MF to ground in the AGCO parts book. If this link opens for you the fuel valve assembly that was original to that model is shown:
http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/651424

If it will not open, go to http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/login.aspx?region=NorthAmerica and check in as a guest. Then query the 205 Massey, and look for the line that lists the compact tractor 205 and 205-4.

I see it also shows a spin on fuel filter on the fuel system slide. When you change that filter and do not have a priming valve it is necessary to open the bleeder valve until all the air is evacuated from that filter. You may have had air trapped in the filter that simply took some time to evacuate.


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## pogobill

hd883chopper said:


> Pogobill - did you ever find your issue of why it wouldn't crank up? Was the injector pump just starved for fuel on start up?


It was an Argo, not an Agco. Twin cylinder gas 6 x 6. Fuel would bleed down back to the tank. The bulb allowed me to manually move the fuel back to the fuel pump without using the starter.
Seems your problem is solved, and the air has completely bled out. If not, we are always here for ya!


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## bbirder

I think you had the problem solved at the end of post #17. You had bled it enough that it continued starting,THEN you changed the two fuel lines. This allowed air in the system and the cycle started all over again. Now that it is starting, use it and enjoy.
Don't create problems that aren't there.


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## hd883chopper

bbirder said:


> I think you had the problem solved at the end of post #17. You had bled it enough that it continued starting,THEN you changed the two fuel lines. This allowed air in the system and the cycle started all over again. Now that it is starting, use it and enjoy.
> Don't create problems that aren't there.


I tend to agree. Thank you all very much for the advice. I’m sure I’ll need more at some point and hopefully I can help someone else down the road. Cheers.


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