# well water staining landscape



## viper8u2

Hello,

Got a major problem here. We have been doing some extensive landscaping the last few years. We finally got to our lawn and put in irrigation last fall.

The problem is we have a real high iron count in our well water. we previously softened our outside water spickets and never had a problem with discoloration. Now that we have the irrigation system, its pushing out alot more water than the normal hose and sprinkler.

Now everything is turning an orange tint. The irrigation system is coming right from the well. We figured that we would need to address it so we put in a Rid O Rust system. (injector system that suppose to take care of iron water) It does not work for us.

I have alot of money tied up in boulders and other landscaping, It is now turning into a bad site.

What can we do? I have a few companies coming out next week. one of them mentioned a product called the "Iron Curtain".

Surely, I cant be the only one who has had this problem, what do golf courses do?

Any help appreciated.

Mike


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## Live Oak

My brother-inlaw manages several stores for VAMAC which is a large plumbing supply company. I have sent him a copy of your post and asked him about a solution to your problem. Might take a few days but I will get back to you with his suggestions. They sell and provide tech support on a large aray of well supplies.


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## viper8u2

Thanks a bunch Chief,

I look forward to any answers I can get.

I will try to take some recent pictures when it stops raining. I have had people that have never heard of well water causing this, believe it or not.

We put down a concrete "paver" path. Within 2 weeks it was an orange tint. Although it doesnt look bad on the pavers, my beautiful boulder work, driveway, and areas of my house siding is not looking good. 

Mike


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## Live Oak

Does running water from the well at high volumes for a prolonged period reduce or improve the iron oxide residue staining any?


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## viper8u2

I would have to say that running it for prolonged periond of time would improve the staining. 

I dont mean that the longer I have the water running per session, the rustier it gets. I mean over time, it just builds up.

I will try to take some pics of not only my house, but some of the neighbors as well. It is a big problem

Thanks,

Mike


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## johnray13

I look forward to the pictures Mike!


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## viper8u2

Hello John,

I will get some specific pics to show side by side of the discoloration.

Since than, I have been working on putting some pics together over the last few years of our landscaping. Its been alot of work, but so far we are pleased. 

Still have alot more to do, and I will post some updated pics with the grass coming in from when I seeded last fall.

Mike

http://www.letsrace.com/landscapeweb/index.htm


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## DeereBob

Mike,
Probably the best solution for you is to put a chlorinator on your well to remove the iron before it goes into your outdoor piping. I am considering the same thing since I have 5 ppm iron in my well water that is removed for indoor water but bypasses my filtration system for outdoor use. I have enclosed a link to one of these systems that will give you an idea about cost. Do not, and I emphasize do not put in a system using Potassium Permaganate since this reducing agent causes pernicious anemia in animals and humans. I know first hand since it essentially killed one of my cats that drank the effluent that ran into a basement sink. Chlorine is also what muncipal water entities use to treat water for both iron and bacteria. 

http://www.pwgazette.com/drypelletchlorinator.htm

Another thing that will help is to pour a bottle(s) of bleach down your well once or twice and year and let the water run to all your faucets until you just smell the chlorine. Let the water sit in your lines while you run an outside garden hose to flush the bleach from your system. This flushing takes 1-3 hours and is complete when you can't smell any chlorine from the hose. Then flush all your inside lines and you should be pretty good shape. If you don't get any iron build up at all on the inside of your toilet tanks then maybe this won't be necessary. If the build up on the inside of the tanks is slimy, then you most likely have bacterial iron in your water and chlorine is the only way to get rid of it.



http://www.pwgazette.com/drypelletchlorinator.htm


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## Stewart

I have no idea where to take it, but have you had your water tested? 

We have a Department of Environmental Quality here in Oklahoma and that is where I would start. Just an idea.


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## viper8u2

Thanks Deerebob,

looking at the chlorinator, it doesnt look like it would be able to handle 20-30 gallons per minute that my irrigation system is putting out. Thanks for the waring on potassium permaganate.

I do have a system for inside the house consisting of a softer, bacteria sanitizer and phseudo iron. I also have a whole filter iron filter on their. It does a good job with the iron inside the house. prior to putting that in, I would see my toilets/sinks turning orange in a week.

Stewart, I have tested my water thats how I know. one of the biggest things is "tandens" not sure on the spelling. They also cause staining. 

I think and I am willing to pay for something along the lines of a commercial system to solve this problem. I have way too much invested in landscaping to have it goto sh*t from a season of watering.

As I mentioned in earlier, I will take some pics of my yard and my neighbors so you get an idea.

I have 3 companies coming out in the next 3 days, but wanted to know what was out there.

Thanks and keep the suggestions coming,

Mike


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## DeereBob

Mike,
Are you sure your irrigation system is 20-30 gpm? Mine is at best 5-7 gpm with a 1.5 HP well pump and 1" piping. If you were irrigating a golf course, I would believe those numbers but with a multi-zone irrigation system like mine I am a bit skeptical. The chlorination system requires a settling tank which is where the gpm of your system is the critical issue. At 20-30 gpm you would need a huge settling tank but at 5-7 gpm, it would not have to be that large. Another consideration is the type of heads you have on your irrigation system. If they are rotaries versus sprayers, the iron particulates might not clog the nozzles so you could get by with just contact chlorination and a settling tank for only the inside water. Just some food for thought.

Indoors, I have a Culligan system that consists of a 20" 50 micron particulate filter, a Super S iron filter that is regenerated with bleach once a month, a water softener and a reverse osmosis unit for drinking water and icemaking. I lease the Super S filter since it is a high maintenance item and requires the carbon bed to be changed every 3-4 years. I own the other equipment and just replaced my water softener after 12 years of use.


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## bontai Joe

Beautiful house, Mike! I can see why you are concerned about the landscape as it is obvious that a LOT of hours and energy went into creating it. I hope you find an affordable solution.


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## viper8u2

Deerebob,

Hmmmm maybe your right. I thought they said that when they were designing it. They did do water pressure tests, maybe that was just to make sure they had enough pressure to water. I did have to put in a bigger pump and monster pressure tank. I currently have 12 zones with hunter pro heads. they are the rotaries and have the misters by the flower beds. 

I will definately ask now about that. I have reverse osmosis for our drinking and ice also. I use the same 20" filters for iron. Its spendy, about $100 per filter and I need to change it about twice a year.

I am also worried about what the water will do to my sprinkler heads after a couple of seasons. I wonder if there is a type of conditioner I can use for my injection system (i will use for fertilizer now) that would help with it? 

http://www.americanhydro.com/products/injection_feeders.asp

Thanks for the kind comments Bontai Joe,

Mike


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## guest

dittos to what joe said mike.. you have a real nice place, yard, landscaping,pond etc...

how many acres do you own it looks HUGE?


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## viper8u2

Thanks SJ,

My total lot is shaped more like pie slice. 

It runs to the corner of the street, across the pond and back.

its 3 acres total.

Mike


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## guest

really... great job real nice design.. its got much more character than the typical 'drop a tree or 2 and a few shrub' designs...


<img src=http://www.trailtamer.com/letsrace/landscape/after/IMG_0319.JPG>


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## DeereBob

Mike,
The iron in the water will not hurt the sprinkler heads. My system has been in 7 or 8 years now with no problems. My comment about them was directed at the precipitate that you would get by not running the freshly chlorinated water through the a settling tank. With flower sprayers, you would clog the nozzles so this would not be an option. As far as an upstream particulate filter, my elements cost about $30 each for 50 micron polyfoam 4.5" diameter elements that are 20" long from Culligan. I am pretty sure that I can get a little better price online but have not checked.

By luck, most of our landscaping stone and pavers are rust or red in color so the only objectionable rust stain is on the sidewalk or parts of the brown house brick. However, with the gray colors of a lot of your landscaping material this would be a big problem. Culligan told me a full-blown chlorination system from them would cost around $7K-$8K. I know there are much cheaper systems out there which I recommend you check out. Another type of iron removal system is ozination but it also requires a settling tank but may be a better option for you than chlorination. A final option is a commercial Reverse Osmosis system if you would not have to run the rejection water through either a septic field or city sewer since the water volumes would be so great.

BTW, almost forgot to say how nice your landscaping looks. I know what it takes money and time wise to do what you have so nice job all the way around.


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## viper8u2

My finace' is big into gardening and such, gotta admit, before I met her, I never really did much.

The lower retaining wall you see I did myself. I had some quotes done and they wanted $14k to do it. I am in the wrong business.

I will say that it is very hard work. I did it myself with a wheelbarrow and 2 wheel dollie I bought for $19 at northern. Best investment to this day.

The boulders on the bottom cosisted of 28 tons, 4 dump trucks. I was on a mission and it took me 30 hours to do it. (I couldnt move for 2 days after but thats another story) I was pleased with the results though and saved a boat load of money. 

The big boulders is another thing, some of them weigh 10 tons each, had a big crane come in to do it. That was very spendy but hopefully added to the value of my house.

Thanks,

Mike


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## viper8u2

DeereBob,

Thanks for the info, I think I am getting ripped for my filters. I wonder if I am using the same as you, I will dig up the filter and site when I get home. It is a culligan filter I think rebranded of course from US filter. The price I pay is the online price.

I really need to check out these chlorination systems, I dont know much about them and this will be an educating process for me. $7-8k is out of my budget, but I do have 4-5x that into my landscaping thus far.

I do have septic, that will be a major issue since I dont want to think about having to fix that. Now thats big money around here.

Thanks again,

Mike


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## DeereBob

Mike,
Some good news. I did a little checking since I have an interest in the same thing. It looks like the dry pellet chlorinator installed would be less than $1K if a carbon cleanup filter is not needed. If you are handy enough you could install it yourself on your wellhead. It operates when the pump runs and uses the same electrical line as the pump. The settling occurs in the wellhead so no retention tank is required. An activated carbon filter is needed to remove the residual chlorine for water going into the house. Since I already lease the Culligan Super S unit, I wouldn't need to buy another carbon filter. Your local wellpump contractor might carry these units and also be willing to install one on your well.


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## viper8u2

Thanks Deerebob,

I will have to ask the guys about this, I have 2 people coming out tommorow, one is a culligan guy. I will keep you posted on it

Mike


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## viper8u2

Deerebob,

Had a couple of guys out today.

Culligan guy is trying to sell me a new huge water softner to do everything, inside and out. handles 90 grains or something. Cost about $4400

Surge/independant guys says he can do it himself by putting in a 5 tank system. It basically oxidizes the iron coming out of well than filters thru the tanks, no chemicals or anything. He didnt have much more info but said that this is the way they will all be in the future? cost $6800 installed

I have a guy coming out tommorow from a well place, I will see what he has to say. They have these "Iron Curtain" machines http://www.hellenbrand.com/ironcurt.htm

I brought up the chlorination systems and printed out the webpage, they didnt really have any comments on it and were not familiar with it. (my impression)

Keep me posted on what you find out. Do you know anyone using this system? How big of a tank do you need for the holding?

Chief, any word yet from your relative?

Thanks,

Mike


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## viper8u2

Here is a pic of this morning, I also posted some updated ones May 2004. You can see alot of the staining.

http://www.trailtamer.com/letsrace/landscapeweb/index.htm

<img src=http://www.trailtamer.com/letsrace/landscapeweb/may-2004/IMG_2133.jpg>

Mike


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## Live Oak

I talked to him last night and he says that you can get a chlorine system but they are very expensive. Evidently the water is treated with chlorine and it has to go into a holding tank for the iron to precipitate out and then must be filtered. The precipitate must be periodically flushed. The other route is a water softener but they are also very expensive and to accomdate the volume output; (I would imagine about 4 to 5 gallons per minute) you would require a huge system and large amounts of salt. I think these options have already been mentioned above. Sorry I could not be of more help. He did say that you could lessen the amount of iron staining if you were able to configure a large water holding tank that would allow you to let the water set without being under pressure from the water system. When the water exits the fixtures it is out from under the system pressure. This allows the iron elements to react and precipitate out. This process is greatly accelerated when sprayed from a lawn fixture as it greatly aerats the water and the iron rapidly reacts with the oxygen in the air. I would think you best option would be to run this by a local well/water sytem installer or parts vendor. They have probably dealt with this problem locally before and may have worked out a cost effective solution that works in your area. Water is very different in its contents from area to area.


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## balmoralboy

*Tannins in Water*

Hi,

The thing your water test outfit talked about was probably Tannins. They are the organic components (plant material) left in surface water by rotting leaves that make some rivers 'brown rivers' If you fish you will know what that means.

There are two concerns with tannins in your wellwater:

1. Organics make the color brown and it doesn't look good to drink. As well, when you chlorinate water with organics in it, you get halogenated organics which have been linked to bladder cancer. We get our village water from a river and this is a problem we need to beat to meet the National Drinking Water Quality Guidelines. It means putting in a huge sand filter (pre-chlorination) on the system or carbon filters on every house. 

2. Tannins are normally associated with surface water. If you have high levels of tannins you are probably getting runoff into your well, or into the aquifer (water table). If so, you are not getting the natural filtration that usually occurs with well water, and you need to look at what else is coming in with the tannins. For example, if there is manure spread on fields near you, it could be getting into your water. 

IMHO, this is serious and needs to be followed up pronto! And filtration is not the answer if you have runoff entry, because you can get E Coli and other pathogens the filter won't take out. Go see the State Water Lab people and tell them it's a well, not a surface supply!!!!!!!

For more info look up E Coli Walkerton on google. Walkerton is a town in Ontario that had a similar problem with the town supply and 7 people died.

Jim
Former Engineer now an Innkeeper


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## viper8u2

Hello Jim and Deerebob,

Jim, thanks for the detailed info. I had the water tested various times and the tannins isnt too bad.

Basically this is what I have
Water Hardness = 14
Iron parts per million = 4
PH = 2.7 ?
and others I forgot about. I have a reverse osmosis system I use for all drinking water and ice and have a sanitizer system that filters bacteria, iron, and softens. Additionally I have a whole house "big blue" iron filter for the house.

Deerebob,

That sucks! I am hoping to find a cost effective system that will work. As I mentioned before, I have another guy coming out tonight that uses the "Iron Curtain" system. They have been using their method longer, but the guy from surge says his system is newer and will be the next thing. I will check on references and let you know.

Thanks,

Mike


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## balmoralboy

*Water analysis*

Wow! An Acid Rain Well!

You are at pH 2.7 with hardness of 14. Copper pipes must rot out in about 2 years where you live. You need 50 ppm hardness to protcet copper. Let me guess, the water is coming out of a lake with granite around it, no soil to speak of, and a marshy areas around it. Sort of like the Shelburne area of Nova Scotia or the Northern Peninsula of Newfoundland.

That profile is typical of a bedrock lake as the source. There's no limestone to modify the carbolic acid from carbon dioxide dissolving into the lake and no clay to buffer the pH. And there is nothing to dissolve into the water and give you any hardness.

If you're getting that from a well, what is your surrounding terrain like? 

How deep is your well?

Jim

Engineer Now Innkeeper


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## viper8u2

Jim,

This area has lots of lakes, not in my immediate area though. unfortunately the area I live in is one of the worst for Iron in the Minnesota metro area

down the street they have 8ppm iron, neighbor has 2, across the stree 4 etc.

Our development was a farm field a long time ago. infact we are surrounded by alot of sod farms.

My soil is basically sand in the front and dirt in the back. We had our soil tested before seeding and stuff, I dont remember what it is off hand.

Our well is shallow in my opinion, 55' deep, average around here is 80'. The water table is pretty low here, I was thinking of running a sandpoint a while back. My neighbor did it and only had to go down 12'

We dont have problems with our pipes here. 

Mike


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## balmoralboy

*Water*

Mike,

Judging by the scenery in the background I'd say you shouldn't be having this problem. It doesn't look like the kind of territory that yields water like that. 

But the acid in the water is likely leaching the iron from the soil. And if the soil is sand and dirt, there's likely not a lot of filtering going on before rainwater reaches the water table.

If you ask your neighbours about their iron content and well depth you may be able to figure out if the iron is a bigger problem down deep or nearer the surface. Remember to think about the level they start measuring the well depth from - the guy on the hill above you takes more depth to get the same depth at your house. 

Anyway that may tell you if drilling deeper will help. Otherwise, it looks like you are in for a fancy filtering system. Also, keep an eye on what the sod farms are using in the way of fertilizers and pesticides. It will all end up in your well someday quite soon.

Regards


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## jodyand

Man I'm glad i don't have those problems with water. We have some of the best water we have artesian wells down here. Best tasting water there is.


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## DeereBob

Mike,
The reason I am interested in the Dry Pellet Chlorinator is price and it does require a settling tank. Culligan doesn't offer anything like this which is the reason they proposed a multitank setup for big bucks. Also with 4 ppm of iron you are on the borderline as to whether or not a water softener could remove it. Your problem is water volume which is why I suggested exterior chlorination.

However, Jim hit on something and that is well depth. My well is 380 feet deep and penetrates a limestone cap. At 55', you could be getting both surface runoff and poor quality water. Muncipal wells typically are drilled much deeper than residential wells to tap higher quality aquifers where I live. The solution to your iron problem just might be driller a deeper well but it will likely run around the same money as the filtration systems you got quoted but I don't know for sure. 

Finally have you considered changing out your sprayers to drip irrigation for the flower beds and close-in landscaping. A little reconfiguation and head adjustments to the spray path might eliminate a lot of the staining by simply avoiding the stone and other landscape material. I had my sprinkler guys change out some sprayer heads to get a different pattern to avoid staining our new decks.


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## johnray13

Mike, I went thru your pictures and don't see the rust staining you are talking about. Can you direct me to a specific pic? 

You're preparing to spend a lot of money to correct this. Are you sure it's worth it because of the discoloring of a few rocks? I can't even tell which ones are discolored.


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## viper8u2

Hello John,

made a page to show you, 

check out

http://www.trailtamer.com/letsrace/landscapeweb/index.htm

click on the iron stain problem link

Hope that gives a better idea. 

Just had another guy out, flow rate is 17 gpm, 4 ppm iron. I got a very bad feeling this is going to cost me

Mike


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## Live Oak

> _Originally posted by jodyand _
> *Man I'm glad i don't have those problems with water. We have some of the best water we have artesian wells down here. Best tasting water there is. *


The water may taste good but it is hard as a rock! I could not believe how difficult it was to was soap off when I visited a friend in Poplarville MS.


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## DeereBob

Mike,
The more I think about it, the less I think Dry Pellet Chlorination will solve your problem cheaply because of your shallow well. I'd be concerned that there would be enough water depth below your pump intake, if it's a submersible, to provide sufficient settling time for the iron precipitate after injecting the chlorine. In my case, I have about a 100' feet of casing depth below the submersible pump so it wouldn't be a problem for me. That leaves you with treatment after the water leaves the well which will require larger equipment. As an aside, I saw your pictures of the stained landscaping and the rocks don't look bad but the sidewalk and statuary do. If you could reconfigure your spray pattern to avoid these things, it might be cheaper than water treatment but it's a matter of personal preference.


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## Stewart

When I started looking at the pictures, I thought "Whats the problem they are rocks?" I was thinking maybe you just had a reaction with the water and the rocks. Then as I looked at the other pics I saw the one of the statue and the brown water. Wow it really is staining the crud out of everything. I hope you can find a solution that isn't too expensive. 

What are the neighbors doing? Are they treating their water?

Final question, is high iron content bad to consume?


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## guest

that is a huge difference when you putthe pics next to each other... we also have horrible (hard) water here.. i have not done anything yet to filter our drinking and household water use as yet..


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## DeereBob

Mike,
Check these guys out at the url below:

http://www.magneticwatersystems.com/well-water-systems.html

For $2,400 you can get an iron filter that will handle up to 25 gpm with 25 grains of hardness. You are at 14 so it should work for you but not for me since I have 37 grains. It is filtration versus chlorination so additional tankage is not required and installation would be relatively easy. Also, if you go this route, run all the water through it but bypass the water softener for the water going outside. This will save salt costs and put a lot less stress on your softener.


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## viper8u2

Hello Deerebob,

I did a quick search last night and came across that system also. It looks like they have 3 separate systems that vary a bit.

I sent them an email with my requirements and info and to see if they have a rep in my area.

It looks like its similar to the other systems that these guys have been recommending to me. but without the huge price.

I will keep ya posted on what I find out.

Thanks,

Mike


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## viper8u2

My neighbors are not doing anything. The ones that have irrigation have a huge mess. There yard, driveway, etc is 10 times worse than mine, The others dont have irrigation and are treating the outside spickets thru their regular softner like I did previously. 

I did not get any staining watering from a normal hose and sprinkler, but you can imagine the water output is alot different.

all the heads are positioned now so they dont get on the driveway, sidewals, house etc. The wind blows the water around. Plus, there isnt much I can do with all the planting areas and the boulders, its pretty much all or nothing.

Why did I move here again?? oh yeah, wanted some more land, wanted to pee out my backdoor and not worry about it (not that I do that), and I wanted to jump on my sled and ride from my house. 

Mike


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## Stewart

Sure you don't:winky: 

Is your water safe to drink according to the tests?:nerd:


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## viper8u2

Hello Stewart,

Yes the water is fine, I wouldnt drink it coming straight out of the well though.

The water we drink is filtered thru a softener, iron filter, sanitizer and then RO system.

No problems thus far.

Mike


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## Stewart

Sorry to see that it is staining things up. My main concern would be is it safe for use in the house. You have put a lot of time effort and money into making the lanscaping look awesome, I hate to see it stained. I hope you can find a cost affective way to get the Iron out. 

Keep your naked butt of that snow machine! I know about you guys in the great white north eh!!!


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## DeereBob

> _Originally posted by Stewart _
> *...Final question, is high iron content bad to consume?
> *


Short answer - no, but you might want to check this for more info.

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/dwg/iron.htm


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## Stewart

We are on a small towns water supply and you can see some stains around the outside faucets kind of like Mike. Our house is over 30 years old so it has taken quite a while to get them that way. I like to just get a glass with ice and get water form the sink. I like the idea of being able to do that without filters etc. Thanks for the link Bob, I thought you were from Ill? :winky:


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## DeereBob

> _Originally posted by Stewart _
> *... Thanks for the link Bob, I thought you were from Ill? :winky: *


This is one of the rare moments when I paid attention to something that came out of the State of Wisconsin that didn't originate with a cow!


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## Stewart




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