# Blade keeps falling off



## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

I have a Simplicity Champion XT zero turn mower. I had it at the dealer last year to have a belt replaced and when I picked it up the guy said one of the blades was about to come off. Today I mowed for about an hour and when I parked the mower, the same blade actually fell off. I tightened it on real good and wouldn't you know it, the deck drive belt broke and after stopping I discovered the blade was about to come off again. What could cause thisso I can stop pullling my hair out?  The mower only has about 70 hours on it. Any suggestions so I can stop pulling my hair out?


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

If you Zero turn is still under warranty, then it should go back to the dealer, seems there is a problem with the spindle bolt threads or even the blade mount style, do the spindle bolts have a cup/belleville washer against the blade?.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I put mine on with an impact wrench set on medium torque. My blade bolts are 1 1/8' diameter. If you use a regular socket wrench you need to hold the top of the spindle when you tighten the blade nut. Myself, I prefer the impact wrench method. No Bellville washer on mine, just the nut on the blade.


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## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

I use my Dewalt 20v impact as well. Super fast & easy. Never had one come off and I torture my mowers sometimes.


Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

I watched the Red Green show and Rick used duct tape to keep the blade on.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> I use my Dewalt 20v impact as well. Super fast & easy. Never had one come off and I torture my mowers sometimes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


I torture mine all the time, why I buy new blades every year. After a year, not much left.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

FredM said:


> If you Zero turn is still under warranty, then it should go back to the dealer, seems there is a problem with the spindle bolt threads or even the blade mount style, do the spindle bolts have a cup/belleville washer against the blade?.


I bought it on October 25, 2018, almost three years ago so I guess the warranty is up.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Common torque spec for a 5/8", grade 8, blade-to-spindle attachment is 70 ft lbs. Bear in mind, spindles run tapered roller bearings on both ends of the shaft. When you tighten either the top pulley nut, or the bottom spindle bolt, the bearing cages flex and you're actually setting the "preload" on the those bearings. The most common tapered roller bearing failure is to much preload (over torque). If you look up the generic torque spec for a common 5/8", grade 8 bolt, it's 90 ft lbs. That's fine for most "attaching" situations, but it's way more preload than that size of tapered roller bearings can handle and they will fail prematurely

Understand that right-hand discharge chutes run right-hand thread spindle bolts. Left-hand discharge chutes run left-hand thread spindle bolts. This simple design insures that as the blades rotate through the grass it naturally "tightens" the lower spindle bolts. When it comes time to change blades, most guys think the 6' cheater bar or 3/4" impact commonly needed to loosen the spindle bolts is because of corrosion, but fail to realize that bolt has been under a "contant torque load" for 300 hours of mowing, not to mention the additional "shock torque" of when they hit that big ass hidden stump. Putting Red, or Blue Loctite on a spindle bolt is not really necessary by design and is actually a mistake. Anti-seize is your better friend when it comes time to change those blades again.

As to your bolt that keeps coming loose, you had someone else change the belt..... Just for grins and giggles, have you checked to see if some knucklehead at that Dealer didn't misroute the deck belt so that particular spindle is some how rotating in the wrong direction? If that is the case, that lower spindle bolt will eventually work loose every time....

Don't laugh.... I've seen it happen on several occasions


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

The spindles on my zero turn have an internal spacer between the bearings that sets the preload on the bearings and they are ball bearings, not roller. Never had an issue tightening the securing nut with an impact wrench. My CC 60" tanks is at least 10 years old.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> I put mine on with an impact wrench set on medium torque. My blade bolts are 1 1/8' diameter. If you use a regular socket wrench you need to hold the top of the spindle when you tighten the blade nut. Myself, I prefer the impact wrench method. No Bellville washer on mine, just the nut on the blade.


I also use a RIDGID Impact wrench which is real fast off and on and I don't use washers. My dealer in Elgin Ontario went under and his replacement is a hardware store which at least appears to be new to the game so I don't have a lot of confidence in him although they have been helpful and friendly. I'll check


David Cameron said:


> I bought it on October 25, 2018, almost three years ago so I guess the warranty is up.





David Cameron said:


> I have a Simplicity Champion XT zero turn mower. I had it at the dealer last year to have a belt replaced and when I picked it up the guy said one of the blades was about to come off. Today I mowed for about an hour and when I parked the mower, the same blade actually fell off. I tightened it on real good and wouldn't you know it, the deck drive belt broke and after stopping I discovered the blade was about to come off again. What could cause this so I can stop pullling my hair out? The mower only has about 70 hours on it. Any suggestions so I can stop pulling my hair out?


WOW !!! I'm impressed with all the quick responses. When I retired fromToronto 23 years ago and moved to 6.5 acres on Gananoque Lake in SE Ontario and being a city boy I knew squat about tractors so I went on-line for the first time since the net was new at the time and I found a site called Garden Web where I asked for advise. I got very high recommendations for Simplicity and especially the Conquest which should meet my needs so I bought one. It was a fantastic tractor although three years ago, the engine started "hunting" so a mechanic friend took a look at it and suddenly it backfired and burned to the ground. I didn't hold that against the tractor and felt it came under sh+t happens and as it turns out is not that uncommon so I stuck with Simplicity and would have bought another Conquest but every one encouraged me to get a zero turn so I bought a Champion XT 25 HP. Sometimes it 's a tad slow to start but it doesn't have the Vanguard engine which was wonderful and every spring it started immediately. Outside of one of the blades falling off three times my only problems are 1) it got stuck in mud three times and I had to use my Tahoe to get it out something that never happened with my Conquest. 2) one of the blades came off three times and hence this thread. WhiIe I'm at it, I've already replaced the drive belt twice and it just broke again after about maybe 20 hours. The last one was a Stens so I'm reluctant to get another one of those. I'll see if I can find a Simplicity which I believe is actually a Briggs. Any suggestions as to where to get the best deal on one? The Stens was $139 which unfortunately seems to be common even in the U.S.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

Bob Driver said:


> Common torque spec for a 5/8", grade 8, blade-to-spindle attachment is 70 ft lbs. Bear in mind, spindles run tapered roller bearings on both ends of the shaft. When you tighten either the top pulley nut, or the bottom spindle bolt, the bearing cages flex and you're actually setting the "preload" on the those bearings. The most common tapered roller bearing failure is to much preload (over torque). If you look up the generic torque spec for a common 5/8", grade 8 bolt, it's 90 ft lbs. That's fine for most "attaching" situations, but it's way more preload than that size of tapered roller bearings can handle and they will fail prematurely
> 
> Understand that right-hand discharge chutes run right-hand thread spindle bolts. Left-hand discharge chutes run left-hand thread spindle bolts. This simple design insures that as the blades rotate through the grass it naturally "tightens" the lower spindle bolts. When it comes time to change blades, most guys think the 6' cheater bar or 3/4" impact commonly needed to loosen the spindle bolts is because of corrosion, but fail to realize that bolt has been under a "contant torque load" for 300 hours of mowing, not to mention the additional "shock torque" of when they hit that big ass hidden stump. Putting Red, or Blue Loctite on a spindle bolt is not really necessary by design and is actually a mistake. Anti-seize is your better friend when it comes time to change those blades again.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting observation Bob Driver. I'll mention that to wherever I end up taking it.


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## fuddy1952 (Mar 6, 2021)

Bob Driver said:


> Common torque spec for a 5/8", grade 8, blade-to-spindle attachment is 70 ft lbs. Bear in mind, spindles run tapered roller bearings on both ends of the shaft. When you tighten either the top pulley nut, or the bottom spindle bolt, the bearing cages flex and you're actually setting the "preload" on the those bearings. The most common tapered roller bearing failure is to much preload (over torque). If you look up the generic torque spec for a common 5/8", grade 8 bolt, it's 90 ft lbs. That's fine for most "attaching" situations, but it's way more preload than that size of tapered roller bearings can handle and they will fail prematurely
> 
> Understand that right-hand discharge chutes run right-hand thread spindle bolts. Left-hand discharge chutes run left-hand thread spindle bolts. This simple design insures that as the blades rotate through the grass it naturally "tightens" the lower spindle bolts. When it comes time to change blades, most guys think the 6' cheater bar or 3/4" impact commonly needed to loosen the spindle bolts is because of corrosion, but fail to realize that bolt has been under a "contant torque load" for 300 hours of mowing, not to mention the additional "shock torque" of when they hit that big ass hidden stump. Putting Red, or Blue Loctite on a spindle bolt is not really necessary by design and is actually a mistake. Anti-seize is your better friend when it comes time to change those blades again.
> 
> ...


If a blade was turning backwards, couldn't you tell that by the cut (leaving a streak)?

Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

fuddy1952 said:


> If a blade was turning backwards, couldn't you tell that by the cut (leaving a streak)?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Holy crap !!! That's an interesting observation since the cut doesn't look great and I guess that could be the result if the belt wasn't installed properly.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

fuddy1952 said:


> If a blade was turning backwards, couldn't you tell that by the cut (leaving a streak)?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S205DL using Tapatalk


Yep... Firm grasp of the obvious. That was going to be my next question. Weird cut, only one spindle chuckin' the bolt, and now he's mentioned replacing the deck belt 3 times in 70 hours. Starting to make sense?

_"Don't laugh.... I've seen it happen on several occasions"  _

If its a 48" deck, its Ferris OEM Part # 5103929 that they're bending you over to the tune of $140..... It may not be a standard v-belt, that Ferris part # is for a 5/8 x 158 "Wedge" belt (5V, not 5L)

Universal belt # *5V1580*... Here save yourself a $123 on that belt

5V1580 V Belt - Wedge Style - 5V Series - 5/8 X 158 Belt


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

David Cameron said:


> Holy crap !!! That's an interesting observation since the cut doesn't look great and I guess that could be the result if the belt wasn't installed properly.


. You’re a genius fuddy 1952. You’re a genius too Bob Driver.

From my experience, mower sites are worth their weight in gold. If I was God I’d allow you guys into heaven but unfortunately I’ve fallen short of the glory of God far too often so you’re on your own. OK, OK all you guys can go to heaven.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

David Cameron said:


> . You’re a genius fuddy 1952. You’re a genius too Bob Driver.
> 
> From my experience, mower sites are worth their weight in gold. If I was God I’d allow you guys into heaven but unfortunately I’ve fallen short of the glory of God far too often so you’re on your own. OK, OK all you guys can go to heaven.


I've been told by several people that the only way they're going to let me in Heaven is with an ankle monitor


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

Bob Driver said:


> I've been told by several people that the only way they're going to let me in Heaven is with an ankle monitor


If you do make it yoo'll probably be their janitor and toilet cleaner for eternity.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

David Cameron said:


> If you do make it yoo'll probably be their janitor and toilet cleaner for eternity.


As long as I'm not chained to a damn toolbox for eternity, it will be a nice change in careers


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

Bob Driver said:


> As long as I'm not chained to a damn toolbox for eternity, it will be a nice change in careers


When you think about it, becoming a pimp would be kinda fun.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

Bob Driver said:


> Yep... Firm grasp of the obvious. That was going to be my next question. Weird cut, only one spindle chuckin' the bolt, and now he's mentioned replacing the deck belt 3 times in 70 hours. Starting to make sense?
> 
> _"Don't laugh.... I've seen it happen on several occasions" _
> 
> ...


I think the Ferris and the Simplicity are the same mower just branded differently. Mine is the 48" deck. My belt number is 5103929 yp. I assume or at least hope that YP doesn't make a difference. I'll see if I can find out if 5V or 5 L is important. Thanx Bob. If you save me $123 you can take the rest of the day off. Do you know why it is so cheap?


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

David Cameron said:


> I think the Ferris and the Simplicity are the same mower just branded differently. Mine is the 48" deck. My belt number is 5103929 yp. I assume or at least hope that YP doesn't make a difference. I'll see if I can find out if 5V or 5 L is important. Thanx Bob. If you save me $123 you can take the rest of the day off. Do you know why it is so cheap?


The V belt4 less site says on it ..."Add $106.42 For $9.95 Flat Rate Shipping" What does that mean and that's probably in the U.S. in U.S.dollars? $9.95 makes it worth while but $106.42 makes it about the same as buying it here in Ontario.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

David Cameron said:


> I think the Ferris and the Simplicity are the same mower just branded differently. Mine is the 48" deck. My belt number is 5103929 yp. I assume or at least hope that YP doesn't make a difference. I'll see if I can find out if 5V or 5 L is important. Thanx Bob. If you save me $123 you can take the rest of the day off. Do you know why it is so cheap?


_"I'll see if I can find out if 5V or 5 L is important"_

YP stands for *Y*ard *P*roducts in the Ferris/Simplicty parts system..... 5V and 5L are two different style belt cross sections. 5L is the common cross section on classic v-belts. 5V is a "Wedge" belt and they provide 1.5x to 2x higher horse power ratings than classic belts.

Wedge belts (5V) are *rounded* at the top and that makes them "Wedge" tighter in the pulley for less slippage when they are placed under a torque load









Classic "L" belts are *flat*









Belts have a universal numbering system based on width, section profile, and length... Ferris/Simplicity didn't make that belt. Belts are the #1 replacement part in their inventory system, so they create their own OEM part # to lure you into buying from them at 10x markup over their cost rather than just giving out the universal belt #. It's about all about driving up revenue at the dealer level. All OEM's do it..... Ferris and John Deere are the worst at robbing the customer when it comes to their replacement parts in general.

Just shop for a *5V1580* belt and you'll pay a whole lot less for that belt, even in the Great White North


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Bob Driver said:


> "I'll see if I can find out if 5V or 5 L is important"
> 
> YP stands for *Y*ard *P*roducts in the Ferris/Simplicty parts system..... 5V and 5L are two different style belt cross sections. 5L is the common cross section on classic v-belts. 5V is a "Wedge" belt and they provide 1.5x to 2x higher horse power ratings than classic belts.
> 
> ...


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

Does that mean that it doesn't matter ifi get either a 5 V or 5L. While I'm at it, and a little off topic, check out 



 which you might have to cut and paste. It's a Bela Fleck video. Bela is likely the best 5 string banjo player in the world if you like bluegrass or in his case Newgrass. You'll likey have to click the link at the top. I've been playing it non stop for the last two days.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

David Cameron said:


> Does that mean that it doesn't matter ifi get either a 5 V or 5L. While I'm at it, and a little off topic, check out
> 
> 
> 
> which you might have to cut and paste. It's a Bela Fleck video. Bela is likely the best 5 string banjo player in the world if you like bluegrass or in his case Newgrass. You'll likey have to click the link at the top. I've been playing it non stop for the last two days.


Hmmm looks like it attached here.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Dou you happen to know where he gets his banjo's at? I do and I have one. Cannot play anymore, my hands. especially my fingers have been adversely impacted by chemotherapy.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I'm in Michigan, near Toledo but about 60 miles from Windsor. Me, I got vaxxed on the advice of my oncologist and I'm basically on chemo forever. Oh well. Far as politics go, I prefer not to discuss it as it seems I cannot do anything about it anyway. he has one of my Brother-in-laws open Back banjo's and so do I, but I play(ed) old style Bluegrass. I'm an Earl Scruggs fan. Bart Reiter (Reiter Banjo's) is my BIL.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

I just bought a belt from your link which is Vbelt4less.com in Milwaulkee Wisc. It was $31.29 plus $16.00 , all U.S. dollars which is $47.29 U.S. or I guess $56.76 Cdn plus any tax which is still half the price of a Stens belt at the dealer. The belt is an AMI which apparently is a John Deere aftermarket product and ships from Grimsby Ontario


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> I'm in Michigan, near Toledo but about 60 miles from Windsor. Me, I got vaxxed on the advice of my oncologist and I'm basically on chemo forever. Oh well. Far as politics go, I prefer not to discuss it as it seems I cannot do anything about it anyway. he has one of my Brother-in-laws open Back banjo's and so do I, but I play(ed) old style Bluegrass. I'm an Earl Scruggs fan. Bart Reiter (Reiter Banjo's) is my BIL.


What's a BIL? If you prefer not to discuss it because you can't do anything about it that means you're a Republican because if you present facts Democrats will scream and demonize you for being a Nazi or you're a Democrat with no facts so as all Democrats do, they refuse to discuss it. I suspect you're a Republican which means you'll go to heaven when you die.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

BIL = Brother in Law.

I prefer not discussing politics on here. it's a tractor forum, not a political round table. I'm on a couple forums where politics are discussed including Rumble.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Far as my political leanings go, I'm a conservative. I always vote for whom I feel will do the best job, regardless of political affiliation and if neither peak my interest, I leave the box blank.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

David Cameron said:


> What's a BIL? If you prefer not to discuss it because you can't do anything about it that means you're a Republican because if you present facts Democrats will scream and demonize you for being a Nazi or you're a Democrat with no facts so as all Democrats do, they refuse to discuss it. I suspect you're a Republican which means you'll go to heaven when you die.


I just checked out Reiter banjos on the web and watched a few videos on YouTube. They remind me of the open back banjos that were common in the folk era with groups like The Kingston Trio. I actually have all of their LPs except one. I was fascinated by the expensive ukeleles


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Bart (my BIL) built me a custom open back all inlaid with Mother of Pearl in the finger board. Like I said, don't play anymore because of my finger issues but I'm old school Bluegrass 100%. He has a beautiful shop in East Lansing, Michigan. Actually built a ranch home but the entire interior is devoid of rooms, it's all wood shop that looks just like a normal house.

Every one is custom built and no 2 are alike.


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## David Cameron (Oct 9, 2021)

SidecarFlip said:


> Bart (my BIL) built me a custom open back all inlaid with Mother of Pearl in the finger board. Like I said, don't play anymore because of my finger issues but I'm old school Bluegrass 100%. He has a beautiful shop in East Lansing, Michigan. Actually built a ranch home but the entire interior is devoid of rooms, it's all wood shop that looks just like a normal house.
> 
> Every one is custom built and no 2 are alike.


it
Maybe you could learn to play with your feet. Have you ever seen those videos of people with no hands or arms and doing everything from soup to nuts including playing musical instruments? Mind you three finger or three toe picking would be a challenge. My belt came in the mail. I watched YouTube videos of how to install them. I was going to get a handy friend to do it but I decided to give it a try and ended up doing easier than the guys on YouTube.


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