# Locked up engine?



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

68 ford 4500 TLB, 3cyl diesel, Started it up yesterday, ran for 3 min or so, was moving it at idle speed and it just stopped. No noise, just quit. Now it will not turn over. The starter is less than a month old and has given me no trouble; you can hear it engage. The battery has a fresh and full charge on it and shouldnt be the problem either. 
What should I be looking at next to diagnose whats going on?
Thanks


----------



## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Put a big wrench on the front pully and see if you can turn it in either direction


----------



## MEL NANCE (Sep 26, 2018)

Make sure the lugs on the starter solenoid are tight ,if they are measure the voltage at the solenoid while attempting to start if it drops significantly check for loose battery connections .note if your fuel system has a solenoid on/off, that would explain why it would shut off if you lost battery connection "good luck"


----------



## HarveyW (Sep 15, 2014)

Did you have oil pressure when the tractor was running?


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

MEL NANCE said:


> Make sure the lugs on the starter solenoid are tight ,if they are measure the voltage at the solenoid while attempting to start if it drops significantly check for loose battery connections .note if your fuel system has a solenoid on/off, that would explain why it would shut off if you lost battery connection "good luck"


Will do - posted a note above.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

HarveyW said:


> Did you have oil pressure when the tractor was running?


I am not sure - this machine does not have a pressure gauge... may be a good idea to put one one it in case I get it running


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

x


DustySawyer said:


> I am not sure - this machine does not have a pressure gauge... may be a good idea to put one one it in case I get it running


I pulled the injectors... the sides of one of them is pretty pitted and oily, but no rust, so I'm guessing this was some old damage. It was not bolted on tight and that is probably how some water got in there. The seat at the bottom of it looked clean, so that much tells me that it still has a good seal. 

The fan assembly is difficult to access and it has a clutch on it to try and turn the motor. But once the pressure was relieved I put a wrecking bar in the U-joint on the front where it connects to the hydraulic pump. I was not able to turn it with the crowbar. However I left the wooden stick in same place and did see that it moved a just a bit when I engaged the starter.

Now, it could be that there is a ton of play in the engine and that the crankcase was turning but the pistons wont move. That seems like an excessive amount of play to me between the crank and a locked up piston. On the other hand, I've heard of the front hydraulic pump locking up and keeping an engine from turning over. Has anyone else had that problem?

I also put the battery back on charge because it seems to be dying out quickly. One step at a time... cleaning the injectors up while I have them out and assessing the one for replacement. Will see if the extra charge buys me anything. IF not then the next step, it seems, would be to disconnect that front pump.


----------



## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Is this a gear drive tractor or does it have a torque converter.
If it's gear drive while you have the injectors out that engine should turn over easily,
unless something is locked up.
I would put it in high gear and try and rock it back and forth.
It you can't get it to roll over, it is a possibility that your hydraulic pump is locked up.
i would be surprised but it is possible.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

It’s a shuttle shift - gears, yes, but no clutch. I’m not sure engaging it and pulling would work. I’m thinking the next step will be to try and disconnect the pump and then pull the head. I’d like to be sure the block isn’t cracked of course, but resleeving does not look like too much work or expense.


----------



## MEL NANCE (Sep 26, 2018)

_I am not sure but i think the 4500 was a 4000 with a loader/back-hoe added and other changes if that's the case you should have a 4.4x4.4 engine, that's what my 4000 has according to the manual this eng. does not come factory sleeved but can be bored and sleeved then re-bored with very thin sleeves a little over 100 thousands wall thickness that being said if you try to start with a full charged battery with the injectors out it should spin like a new sewing machine you shouldn't have to use a lot of force to turn the crank over, doing so could cause other damage. make sure the PTO is not engaged you should be able to turn the output shaft by hand i read on another post about a PTO brake but i don't know how it works , If pulling the pump doesn't free it up .Before you pull the head i would loosen the fan belt to rule out the water pump and generator then i would remove the bolts on the P.S pump and slide it back far enough to disengage from the timing gear you "may need to replace the o ring seal on the front of the pump when you get done". The only other external things that i can think of is the tranny and the injection pump i don't know anything about the SHUTTLE SHIFT and haven't pulled an injection pump i know you have to make sure you watch the timing marks .If your injectors are orig. Ford parts hang on to them they can be rebuilt, most of the aftermarket are disposable. Note when you pull the valve cover the valve rocker should be well coated with oil if not that could be a sign of oil pump problems if you have to drop the pan you may have to move the front end forward 1-2 ins, to get to the 2 front bolts if it's cast it weighs about 90 lbs and must be dropped straight down GOOD LUCK _


----------



## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

This may be off the wall, but pop the top cover off the tranny and make sure the shift rails are in the correct position. If the shifter has popped out of the detents, you may actually be in gear on one side and the H/L neutral safety switch still working to crank the motor. This happened to me once and I thought the motor was locked up or the tranny broke.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

I got into it yesterday a bit. With the injectors out, I put it in gear, strapped it to my truck, and gave a few good pulls in either direction. Still locked up. Loosened the fan belt and the generator turns freely. Messing around a little with the front pto/pump it seems loose too. 
That means either the water pump or the engine itself are locked up. 
Re-emphasizing that it was running when it stopped and would not turn over. To get at the water pump, the front end will need to come off (cowl, hydraulic reservoir, radiator, etc).


----------



## MEL NANCE (Sep 26, 2018)

I think your water pump is driven off the same belt as the gen so if the water pump is causing the problem the engine should free up with the belt loose ,the power steering pump is driven off the timing gear on the 4000 not sure about the 4500. You might try loosening the starter mounting bolts just in case the starter is jammed, unless your tranny is the problem it's most likely internal, if your ENG has dropped a valve u may be able to see it by pulling the valve cover. If you reach the point of pulling the head you will need a repair/service manual and a strong friend to help lift the head. on my 4000 i removed the fuel filter assembly & injector lines & linkage (both MF), radiator, voltage reg. and gen ,*make sure to drain the block& RAD* ,before lifting the head or you will have a mess " i learned the hard way" note: the back of the head attaches to the firewall (4 bolts) under the fuel tank (not easy to reach) take a lot of pics to help get it back together ,label the valve lifter push rods, when you remove the rocker assembly leave the head bolts in the rocker or springs will fly. you may not have to remove everything that i did but it gets things out of the way. hope this info helps I will try to send you a repair manual i downloaded in a diff post


----------



## MEL NANCE (Sep 26, 2018)

_The file was to big to send, you may be able to find it under 2000-7000 service manual _


----------



## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

I would find it surprising if any minor accessory could bring the engine to a stop without catastrophically failing itself. I would be focused on the engine crankshaft or directly driven component, or the transmission.
Even something like a cam driven accessories ... all sorts of weak point that are not intended to transmit the torque that would be required to stop the engine.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

MEL NANCE said:


> _The file was to big to send, you may be able to find it under 2000-7000 service manual _


Hi Mel, 
If you want, try to send it to [email protected] I could really use a copy of the manual.
Thanks so much!


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

Groo said:


> I would find it surprising if any minor accessory could bring the engine to a stop without catastrophically failing itself. I would be focused on the engine crankshaft or directly driven component, or the transmission.
> Even something like a cam driven accessories ... all sorts of weak point that are not intended to transmit the torque that would be required to stop the engine.


- Agreed, if it isnt the engine itself then it would have to be a serious fail in another component. After Thanksgiving I'm dragging it over to a neighbor's barn. He has a gantry and electric hoist setup.


----------



## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

One other thought. Can you block up the rear end so the wheels are off the ground and then try turning the motor over. That can give an indication if it is the motor or another area that is locked up.


----------



## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

I thought pushing the clutch in, that would isolate the transmission driveline.

As much as I hate to say it, you have an engine seizure, remove the starter motor and place a heavy flat blade screw driver end ( here I go again, using a screw driver for what it was not designed for) into the ring gear on the flywheel and resting the screw driver shaft against the housing try and lever the engine over with the screw driver, if you can't roll the engine like this, then that is it.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

Ed Williams said:


> One other thought. Can you block up the rear end so the wheels are off the ground and then try turning the motor over. That can give an indication if it is the motor or another area that is locked up.


Not a bad idea - 4500’s have a small lever to release the rear end. Assuming it is working, there was no change when unlocked.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

FredM said:


> I thought pushing the clutch in, that would isolate the transmission driveline.
> 
> As much as I hate to say it, you have an engine seizure, remove the starter motor and place a heavy flat blade screw driver end ( here I go again, using a screw driver for what it was not designed for) into the ring gear on the flywheel and resting the screw driver shaft against the housing try and lever the engine over with the screw driver, if you can't roll the engine like this, then that is it.


Tried a crowbar on the front i joint by the front pump/PTO. Not a budge. Going the open the trans cover next week, pull the water pump (gear driven ), remove the oil pan, then the head, all in that order. One step along the way will hopefully be the cause and it won’t be the engine itself. No clutch in one of these - shuttle shift. I have a line on a block that’s in 8 hour’s drive in case this one is toast.


----------



## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

If your tractor has the shuttle shift with torque converter then there is no mechanical link between the rear wheels and the engine so towing it will do nothing..
I bought a Ford 545 a few years ago - almost the same as a 4500 just a few years newer.
The seller started it and let it idle to warm up.
He said it was idling fine then started to labor and quit.
It had the 6X4 manualtranny so we tried pulling it but no go. I did the usual checks - pulled the ps pump, pulled the starter, disconnected the loader pump, tried barring it over, etc. Nope. It was stuck hard.
My pal Kenny got the tractor in a big horse trade we did. When we pulled the engine and took it apart we found it had seized the rod bearings to the crank but never found out why. Oil pump was fine and no evidence of any failure there.
We rebuilt a different engine to put in the tractor and the parts of that stuck engine are still in one of his sheds.
I "store" his tractor here as he doesn't have room for it. It is a great machine.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

Nice looking machines! That’s pretty much what I had figured about the drive - unless there’s some sort of failure with that torque converter. Just another item to check off the list of possibilities before opening it up.


----------



## Fhwnbnh (Mar 21, 2016)

DustySawyer said:


> 68 ford 4500 TLB, 3cyl diesel, Started it up yesterday, ran for 3 min or so, was moving it at idle speed and it just stopped. No noise, just quit. Now it will not turn over. The starter is less than a month old and has given me no trouble; you can hear it engage. The battery has a fresh and full charge on it and shouldnt be the problem either.
> What should I be looking at next to diagnose whats going on?
> Thanks


I think it may hydrostatic lock. Starter spun but nothing else happened. I bought a starter same problem. A friend told me what it was. Turned out to be leaky head gasket. I had never seen it before. Sometimes you'll see white smoke out exhaust.


----------



## DustySawyer (May 24, 2020)

After a good power-wash I towed it to a barn where I can work on it and not freeze.
Trans cover pulled off, everything spins as it should in the transmission.
Pulling the starter and injectors today to see if I can get it to spin that way.
Next will be a removal of the transmission pan to see if I can determine where the lockup will be. I am assuming at this point that I have a locked up piston and will need to detach each one from the crankshaft to verify that.


----------

