# Is the pressure there?



## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

All right the time has come for me to do a compression test on my 1969 Ford 4000 Diesel tractor. 

As most of you know I have been working on this Ford for a while and have been hoping that I purchased a Gem that could help me turn my rough farm into a working self sustaining farm for me and my family.

But I have sunk a lot of money into this and the out come of this compression test will determine if she (the Tractor) goes up for auction in July .

I need advise on the kind of pressure tester to get?
I am going to stop by my local Harbor Freight tool supply and pick one up tomorrow.
I will take a fuel injector with to make sure the size is correct, any other suggestions?

I am reading the service manual, it is not easy to follow some times,
Any suggestions on procedure?


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## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Make sure to thoroughly clean around the injectors before disisemb le.


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

Diesel pressure is over 400 psi, far higher than a gasoline engine. Check with local tractor shops near you. Some guys make their own compression testers using a gutted injector to make the connection.


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## jhngardner367 (Apr 5, 2011)

I use a gauge that has a minimum of 1000 psi,for most diesels.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

The compression pressure is 300 psi MINIMUM to fire a diesel engine.. I have seen "hard starting" Fords, fire at 290 but nothing under that..
A gauge that will go up to 600 psi is sufficient.. you just don't want to use a "gasoline" compression gauge.. they only go up to 200 psi & will burst when used in a diesel engine.. the HF kit has the proper gauge..
Clean the area GOOD & pull the injectors or just 1 to start with..
You'll probably have your answer after the 1st cylinder test..?? no need to do more work than you have too..
Insert the copper washer in the cylinder, tighten the injector adapter in the hole.
Hook up the gauge.. PULL THE STOP LEVER.. and spin the engine to a 10 count.. or until the needle stops moving.. read the gauge.. IF its over 300, move to the next one..
DONT FORGET THE COPPER GASKET..
IF you wanted to determine where the wear is.. remove the adapter, squirts about 3-5 squirts of oil into the cylinder & retest.. IF it the rings, the pressure will jump up over 100 psi from the original test..


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Ok,

I went to harbor Freight and picked up two compression testers.

# 62594 and the manual says none of the adapters will work but the circled one loosely fits but im afraid it will pop off when under pressure.

I all so picked up tester #62787 and the manual says adapters #19 pic #2 will fit but the hold down bar will NOT fit.

You can see that the injector is rounded by the mounting bolts and the tester one is NOT and hits the head and wont seat.

I have a old injector that I was going to gut and buy a piece of piping to fit one of the tester meters fittings but not sure if the small holes in the tip will be large enough or if I can cut or drill the tip out?

Also inside the tip after the needle has been removed there is a round piece with 2 little pins sticking up, I can get the top and bottom back together but after the pins click into place with the appropriate holes do I keep tighten it?


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

The Tbar one will work, just use "fender washers on the hold down.. OR
gut the old injector & remove the center pintle & grind the tip off till you get 1 big hole.
You'll have to plug or braze the return line hole..
The silver connector, above the Tbar tool will screw right onto the old injector inlet to fit the compression gauge.. Good luck..


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I tried all ways possible and the threads wont match with the new or old injectors. Pic.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

IF memory serves me correct they are either 14x1.5mm or 9/16x 18.. on the injector inlet.
Just find out what the threads are on your testers & buy a die & change the threads on your test injector..


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

You can actually PLUG the INLET on your old injector & adapt the return hole in the TOP to accept the quick connector..
just be sure to gut the injector..


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

does the inside of the injector tip come out?

I have the needle out but there is a round piece with 2 little pins sticking up that might keep the top part from sealing? 

any ideas?

I feel like an idiot. I should have figured that one out.

I'm just tired .

It seems like I go 1 foot forward and I get thrown back 10 feet, but we will get there with your all's help.

Let you know how it works.


Thanks,


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

The pins align the tip, for proper placement.
Remove the bottom nut & remove the pintle from the nozzle.. grind the tip off the nozzle & reinstall, if done properly, you should have a hole about the size of the center piece/pintle you removed.. then go thru the top & remove the pressure spindle & spring..​


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I found some washers and the T bar and Ford adapter will be tried.

I will mount the Tbar just as a injector would be installed but with washers under the flat part of the T. and no cork.

The torque for the injectors is around 18lbs per the service manual, should I try and use that torque for the down rod onto the Ford adapter and copper washer? 

Can I guess at the torque for the washer or should i get a adapter for a wrench to ratchet, toruqe tool (Rachet)(Wrench). 

Sorry to bother you I just want to make sure I don't screw it up.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Just snug it up evenly.. no need to torque it.. you just don't want a lot of compression getting past the tester/adapter.. the less leakage, the more accurate the test is going to be.. YOU GOT THIS.!!!


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

thank you


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Got it done.

Cyl # Dry Wet
1 300 360
2 280 340
3 310 380
Dry means no fuel or oil
Wet means I added oil to the cylinder then retested cylinder.

The service manual says the compression should be 420 - 510 PSI +/- 50 PSI 
I realize that is on a new motor, but mine seem pretty low?


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I got to thinking about the pressure and changed the quick connect compression tester fitting (Was #10 now #17) that screws on to the fuel leak off cap. Now it almost goes all the way down and can touch the inside of the fuel leak off spring cap witch is installed upside down and lines up from top to bottom with no air chambers or blockage now. Since i Changed that I re tested the compression and here are the new readings.
Cyl # Dry Wet
1 340 390
2 320 370
3 380 410

Since the service manual says 420 - 510 psi give or take 50psi does mean the accepted compression is 370 psi to 560 psi?

If so then my reading are not to bad?

Any thoughts?


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## flmaxey (May 29, 2016)

First, forgive me for butting in. (I mean that because, even without my 2 cents, I think you're in good hands on this forum.)
________________________________________

In any case, what are you using this tractor for? After reading what your use of it will be, sustainable living for a family, I'm fairly certain that you're not a professional farmer. Pro farmers tend to buy new, from time to time, because they can write equipment off of their taxes. So it's possible that what you're doing is, roughly, the same the thing I am, with your legacy tractor.

In my "use" case, I have 12 acres. For self sustained living, for two (or even one or two more), 4 acres or more would have to be planted and 2 to 3 fenced acres or so might be needed for some small animals with, perhaps, a cow. (This is what I'm working on in retirement.) To get what I need done and maintain it, I bought an early 80's Massey Ferguson 245 with low hours.

While I'm not a mechanic by trade; the MF245 will turn unbroken ground with a two share plow, dig a 9 shank cultivator in deep and pull it through the ground, disc, etc. It will drag things around, lift things in the ton+ range with a boom and mow acreage I don't plant with a 93" mower. While the plow will make it grunt a bit, in unbroken ground, it does all these things with relative ease. So, for my purposes, the MF seems healthy enough. To get what I need done, I need the MF for about 50'ish hours (more or less) a year so it's safe to assume that, in it's present condition, it will last well beyond the foreseeable future.

After I bought it, I discovered that the MF had a mechanical down side. The front and rear engine seals have a slight oil leak. I put catch pans under it to see how bad it was. As it turns out, it's a very s-l-o-w drip. It's less than a pint over several months. The solution? Leave the catch pans in place. Since everything else about the tractor is fine (after adjusting the brakes to my liking), there's no point in worrying about a very slight oil leak. And the leak may have been the reason why I laid my hands on an, otherwise, fine tractor.

What am I getting at here? If your FORD runs well and is reasonably sound, why would you care if the compression test is a bit under spec? (And it's not certain that it actually is under spec because your test rig doesn't have 100% confidence.) What I believe to be more important is, with the condition of the tractor as it is right now, will it do the work you need it to do? Tractors from back in the day are, in a word, tough. If the FORD is working now, and you give it reasonable maintenance (oil, filters, etc.) chances are that it will continue to do what you need it to do.

As we all know, buying a used tractor is a mixed bag. You already have the FORD and, unless you're willing to buy something new, there's no certainty that what you'll get the second time around will be any better than what you have now. (And the new stuff these days has so many bells and whistles, and items that are designed to get tractors back into the shop from time to time, they have their own set of built-in "uncertainties".)

Lastly, I have a low tech philosophy that I apply to the over engineered mechanical items produced back in the day; "If it works, don't fix it".
(Which is why I'm leaving that very minor oil leak alone.)

For the purists and restoration artists on the forum who can't stand a leak or peeling paint, please note, this is just an opinion!


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I agree with all most every word, but my problem is after it sits for 2 days it is very hard to start. 

I need a dependable tractor. 

sure you have to put money and a little sweat and blood into used machinery and it usually pays off. I'm at the point of no return. I have put over a year of time, lots of money, not to mention the frustration I have shared with every one that has helped me from this site. as you are aware of when the weather is nice you have to be out there working and not fixing if at all possible.

I'm think i'm gonna try this one a bit longer before I do anything drastic.

Sure I may have threatened to sell this in an auction and buy a smaller one like a 8n but to tell the truth, this one has grown on me and if anyone has a fuel problem like mine I may be able to help know.

I have learned so much from the people on this site how can I throw this tractor away. And in the future I may need this large of a tractor.

Time will tell. Im just glad this winter i didn't need the tractor for my drive. But no i need it for my fields. And I dont think I would buy a new tractor if i could. they have to much electronics and other junk you have to worry about.

Thank you for your input. all opinions and input is respected and cherished.

Thank you ALL.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Well dam.. we were all hoping it was a compression problem.. lol
Even at 300 it will start with "help".. ANYTHING UNDER it wont..
Quit dickin around w/ it & send me the inj. pump..
The main pumping unit MIGHT be so worn out, it wont put enough fuel in the cylinders to start the motor..??


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

If it was the pump would it start at all and idle at 10k?
When it starts it seems to run fast but well. before I changed the injectors It idled around 6500(normal?) I thought I just needed tp adjust the idle screw?

Is there a spec that shows how much volume each line of the pump should be putting out?

If so I can put a bottle under each fuel line and test how much is put out in a certain amount of time or motor rotations?


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## flmaxey (May 29, 2016)

Sorry if I stated the obvious. Noting that I'm way behind on this thread and don't know what you've tried so far: Based on the compression figures you quoted from the manual and what you found with your test rig, I'd guess it's OK, or at least within reason. (A mechanic on the forum would know better than I do.)

And while I'm not a diesel mechanic, the diesel concept is a simple one, "compression ignition". There's only a few factors involved in a start. Compression, fuel to go bang, and sufficient starter RPM to get it going. A nice heavy, high capacity battery (or two) is always a good idea.
The pumpguysc may be right. One of the main components of a good running diesel is a healthy injector pump and clean injectors that open at the correct pressure. I'd lean more toward the pump as injectors tend to open at lower pressures with age. (Injectors opening at lower pressure would not starve the engine of fuel, at start up.)

I don't know if you've ever tired it and I'd be damned careful about it, but you might have an engine that just needs a "snif" of ether to get it going. (And when I say a "snif" I'm talking about the barest wiff of a spray on the intake.) In the military, I dealt with a 60KW studebaker generator that still in service back in the mid 80's. While it was old, even back then, it ran fine and worked hard under load, but it wouldn't start without just a bit of ether.

Good Luck


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Yes there is a spec.. many specs that the pump has to meet before it is deemed ok for use.. that's why we have 1 million dollars worth of test stands, sitting in a climate controlled 7 million dollar building..
What part of "stop dickin around" do you need help with??
You cant get to "D" if you haven't gone thru A to C..
You did a compression check FINALLY.. you did the injectors.. NOW lets do A.. the pump. Send me a PM & we'll work something out.. or contact me direct by putting>
at a o l dot com after my screen name.. in your home email server.


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## willys55 (Oct 13, 2016)

not to go off topic, but I drove a few old military trucks and they had a direct line from the bottle to a lever on the dash to send a big ole sniff down to start the engine...LOL


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Those things have a "metered orifice" in the can.. its not like holding your finger on the button..if you follow the can, you would see it goes into a line & at the end of that line is/was the orifice.. I know what your sayin Doc, but a lot of people don't understand that.. or don't know about the orifice.. they merely say, My other tractor starts w/ a can & ITS a factory unit.. 
I bought a "quick start" can from the store the other day for my lawn equipment.. just cuz I'm LAZY & hate pulling the cord 5,6,7 times.. & the spray that came out of THAT CAN was pityfull & in a MIST??.. I could spit more than that.. It was not what I was used to.. BUT good for the machine.. someone finally got it right..


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## flmaxey (May 29, 2016)

The main pumping unit MIGHT be so worn out, it wont put enough fuel in the cylinders to start the motor..??
_____________________________________
I tend to agree with the above assessment from thepumpguysc and there are other potential effects of a worn out pump. (How many hours are on the tractor?)
If the high side of the pump is leaking down between starts and (the good Lord forbid) a bit air is getting into the high side, something like a mini re-prime would be occurring when you crank it. I.E., after time to leak down, (with zero pressure and / or a bit of air) it's harder to start.
Once RPM is up, mechanically, things change to where a worn pump might work.
_____________________________________

If you can't afford pumpguy's services at this point; Ether may work for you but be extremely careful. If the first "whiff" doesn't work, that doesn't mean you can do it again and again. Ether will build up in the intake. You might try one or two light "whiff's", then you'd need to walk away and let it dissipate, over 30 minutes or so, before trying again. After a bit of time, observation, and experience you'll figure out the proper, just enough, "self metered" dose.
(As it is, to get through this season, you may need to start it every day with a cup of coffee in the morning, to make sure it will run when you need.)
_____________________________________

For others:
Back in the day, we didn't have metered Ether. In fact, while the military allowed it (in a sense) the possibility of over doing it was a real problem for boneheads who couldn't finesse the unmetered button. Too much and the head gasket might get blown. So, while it wasn't illegal to use Ether, if it damaged the equipment, it was an Article 15. (Non Judicial punishment.) Why I say I gave it just a "whiff", that's exactly what I did. It was far better to "under do it" and try again later, then to lose $115. (Back then, on a military salary, $115 was a fortune.)


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

cant afford my services?? haha.. I do stuff for free.. kinda hard to beat that..
I'll check out the pump for free instead of charging someone 100. an hour just to tell them, "yup, your pump is bad".. THEN charging them MORE labor to put it back together for a core, IF they don't get it repaired at that shop..


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