# Flippin' 101



## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

I posted earlier this week about “Flippin’ Mowers”. Since then I’ve had a couple of guys contact me about how I go about it and is there $$$ in it. The basic answer is buy low/sell high and if you do it right you can get anywhere from 100 – 200% return on your “investment”. Compare that to the stock market, CD, or an annuity, and it’s always a cash transaction with no paper trail. For me, here in MS, the best “flip’s” are Z-turn mowers and ATV’s. Big lawns and every good Ol’ Boy has an ATV for Huntin’/Muddin’. I plan my work around selling mowers in March (tax refunds) and the ATV’s in August (Deer season).

*BUYING-*
I mainly use Craigslist and occasionally Facebook Market Place to search for deals. With the local Craigslist, I’m constantly running an “I buy Ad”. I also have a couple of “saved searches” that sends me e-mail alerts to get the postings early. There are lots of scams on CL, especially with ATV’s. I usually stay away from listing’s that just have an e-mail reply. I want something where I can either text, or actually talk to the seller. I always check the phone # to see if the area code matches the listed selling location. I pass on something that is listed in Jackson MS, but has a Chicago area code for a contact. I’ve discovered over the years there are two basic scenarios that work best to make $$$:
1) Needs a repair that is beyond the seller (Skill, $$$, or time)
2) The seller is a DIY guy, thought he could make a repair and screwed something up, or he got bored/frustrated and listed it for sale.

*Z-turns -* My best $$$ maker is a weak/bad Hydro-Gear unit, or drive motor.

Replacement Hydro-Gear units start at around $700 on the inter-web. I know... "I saw mine for $350"… They’re either going to be “out of stock”, or “That one doesn’t fit your machine”. Guys got a $1,800 Z-turn and the local shop is telling him $1,200 in parts and labor. Wife says.. “Just get a new one and sell the old one on CL”. You can rebuild most Hydro-Gear units for less than $300 at a worst case scenario(Center Section) and 80% are just the wear plates that run under $100 with a seal kit. Hydro-Gear list 3 hours out/rebuild/in warranty time on their units. Drive motors come on higher end Z-turns. They’re even better… $100 for the kit and 2 hours labor. Trust me they aren’t that complicated. Get a service manual if you’re nervous about the first few, after that they’re easy….

*ATV’s -* My best $$$ maker is a bad differential, or smokes/needs a top end

With differentials, you usually see where the Knucklehead has installed a snorkel and thought it was a boat. Diff gets full of mud/water and the bearings go out. “Boats” usually need both rear brake cables, rear shoes, and sometimes wheel bearings as well. Complete diff bearing/seal kits for most ATV’s run less than $100 dollars. Both brake cables and rear shoes are under $30, and wheel bearings/seals run about $15 per wheel if needed. Labor can get into some time, everything is rusted up and it takes heat/patience to get it apart. A good scenario is 3 hours, a nightmare can run 6-8 hours.

On most top ends, you don’t need to pull the engine. What about 1st over/2nd over?? Don’t worry about it, you can find aftermarket top end kits (Standard piston, rings, wrist pin, jug, and gaskets) for well under $100. I worked in a Honda shop for a couple of years as a motorcycle mechanic after I got out of the Army, so doing top ends on bike engines is second nature to me. It’s about 3 hours labor, with the usual Coors Light pee breaks included
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cylinder-Piston-Gasket-Top-End-Rebuild-Kit-for-Honda-Rancher-TRX350-2000-2006/331374255422?fits=Model:Rancher+350|Make:Honda&epid=2201926634&hash=item4d2771dd3e:g:GhEAAOSwh8tch0ZB

*SELLING-*
If you ever sold anything of CL you know it can be a PITA. There are so many scammers. I put right in my ads that I don’t answer phone calls or text that are outside of a MS(662), TN(901), or AL(205) area codes. What there’s no ATV’s, or z-turns, for sale between MS and NJ??. I run a “ticket” on each machine, just like any customer machine that comes through the door, that tracks parts & labor. I add the purchase price + parts (40% mark up because I buy wholesale) + labor @ $40 per hour. I’ll then take the total cost x 2 as the listing price, because I know everybody is going to try to beat me down. I tell people that call, or text, and say “Would you take $____?” that I don’t negotiate price over the phone. “Come operate/ride the machine and we can talk”. Once they’re here, they see a machine that is clean/detailed, runs good, and they can test mow/ride it. I encourage guys that are after the mowers to spend at least 10 minutes operating the machine (that takes care of most of my yard).

Then the “dance” starts….. “What will you take”? My response is always.. “What you got?” That way I know where this is going (Listen to Richard Rawlings starting a deal where he's selling on Fast & Loud). My bottom line is 20% off my listing price. If I cant' get that, I bought the wrong machine. I rarely fail to sell a machine locally. If I do, I’ve got a buddy on the West side of Atlanta that I’ll trailer them over to him to sell. The Atlanta market is 200 miles away and about 30-40% higher than around here. I always give him a little piece of the sale for his troubles, or he’ll have something he wants to trade, and I get to have dinner with my daughter that still lives in Atlanta.


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## andyvh1959 (Jul 1, 2015)

Hmmm,...and I thought in retirement I'd only be flipping motorcycles.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

andyvh1959 said:


> Hmmm,...and I thought in retirement I'd only be flipping motorcycles.


I thought the same thing for a long time... Then I realized the market to flip motorcycles is really narrow and there are a lot of guys trying to do it. Not everybody owns/rides a motorcycle, show me someone with a yard bigger than a 1/2 acre that doesn't want/need a riding lawn mower?

You get a lot of guys that think the bike they're listing on CL is worth gold. It's because you can look up the estimated value of motorcycles/ATVs on NADA, or Kelly Bluebook. They'll usually go with the "Good Condition", which is actually the price you're going to want to ask for the flip.

Where do you look up the estimated value of a 2016, 24HP, 48", Z-turn with 300 hours? What's it worth if the ad says "Sat for awhile"? What's it worth if the ad says "Electrical problem"? What's it worth if the ad says "Won't turn left"? What's it worth if the ad says "Bought a new one"? The critical point to actually make money on a Flip is when you open your wallet the first time. Pay to much on the front end and the project is doomed from the start.

It's much easier to negotiate a good price on a used Z-turn with problems than it is to talk a guy down that thinks his 1973 CB350 that hasn't run in 20 years is a "Classic" because his brother-in-law told him so.

In order to make money on flipping the CB350, you've got to sell it to an even bigger knucklehead than the guy that sold it to you. To make money on the 2016 Z-turn, you've just got to find a guy that wants to get his lawn mowed fast on a Saturday morning.... So he can go work on/drink beer while restoring the classic 1973 CB350 he just bought off CL, (for only $3,000) with his brother-in-law.

On the domestic side.... Wives don't normally complain when a guy wants to buy a good used zero turn lawnmower. Tell the same woman you want to buy a motorcycle out of the 70's and you might want to be stepping back while waiting for the response .


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## andyvh1959 (Jul 1, 2015)

These days, finding someone younger than 55 with some money to buy a decent updated good running motorcycle is getting harder and harder to find. When the age group is closer to 35 its harder still. Seems the younger ones don't want to deal with their perceived "hassles" of riding (weather, noise, dirty, traffic, riding gear/helmet) and they'd rather spend money on something electronic. 

Not too many of those same age groups wants to actually walk the yard to mow it. So like you said its a better ZTR-Flippin market than Motorcycle-Flippin market. It does surprise me though, the number of people that think a late 70s UJM is somehow worth three to four times its original value, especially after being poorly modified (butchered) into a scrambler/cafe/rat/bobber. I really hate the so called customs with knobby tires on a late 70s to late 80s vintage Japanese street bike.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Yep.... To me, "Rat Bike/Custom" means they barley knew enough to make it run and don't know a damn thing about painting and detailing.

I guess it serves a certain CL marketing function... Generally speaking, an ad titled -- "Barely runs, Ugly POS, Only $2,000" wouldn't attract a whole lot of interest


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Good winter projects to buy are tillers. Buy them starting in October and sell them in April. Bought this one for $75 with a blown engine and dropped a $100 HF 6.5HP Predator on it (took less than a hour to install). Sold it in April for $600


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

Bob Driver said:


> Good winter projects to buy are tillers. Buy them starting in October and sell them in April. Bought this one for $75 with a blown engine and dropped a $100 HF 6.5HP Predator on it (took less than a hour to install). Sold it in April for $600
> View attachment 60249


At first, I thought this thread was about machine roll-overs and needing ROPS. 
  

I flipped a wood chipper after 2 years. paid $350, used it for all the logging mess cleanup, and sold it in the Spring for .... $350. It was way better to buy-use-sell vs. RENTING and having nothing as a payback on the machine. 

As the dollar buying power is shrinking badly, either flipping or finding good deals to hang on to things is the ticket. 

Like the tiller engine swap. Chances are, it's now a better machine. 8 years ago tillers like that were new for $450. Today, nearing $900 for that nice rear tiller machine. 

And look for the trends too. More folks have jumped to growing gardens post-covid19 since the great depression and the Victory gardens during WW2. So, garden equipment and machines for the next few years will be the going thing. 

People usually can't afford a compact tractor. Thus, they can upgrade to an ATV, use ATV attachments like a tractor and make gardens. Swisher even sells a FEL kit for ATVs. They have a nitch in the that market. 

In the past decade, flat bed utility trailers were $350 to $500 for a simple 6x12. Now, just place a 1 in front. $1,350 to $1,500. Buying a can of paint for $20 to $40 and upgrading the lights from Harbor Freight to LEDs, one can make money flipping these too. Plus, trailers can be titled from an old owner, or re-titled as in custom made. 99% of the time the DMV doesn't even see the trailer physically.


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## andyvh1959 (Jul 1, 2015)

Good point about trends. I hadn't thought about the resurgence of home gardens and the need for powered equipment. I just saw an Ingersoll 222 ( CASE 222) yard tractor on CL for $500. I have seen other similar Bolens, Simplicity and Case tractors listed. A Case 446 for $2000, and a lot of small tractor 3-pt attachments. 

Best part of flipping trailers, in Wisconsin NO title, registration or license required below 3,000 lb payload capacity. But, an occasional yard of dirt on my 5x10 tilt bed trailer "may" exceed that number, only for the slow haul home with the tires pumped up.


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## andyvh1959 (Jul 1, 2015)

I have my old Ingersoll lawn tractor (made by NOMA) for sale on craigslist. Its the 1114AAWS model, 42" deck, manual 6-speed tranny, mechanical all wheel steering. It runs ok, but could use some work, perhaps a collector model? Listed for $150. 

I've had four replies already. One texted me, asking if he can pay by cashier's check and pick up the lawn tractor when the check clears. Umm,..it's $150 to buy it, a cashiers check? Really? No. Cash only. Then the phone number, 404 area code, Atlanta. I'm in Green Bay WI. Gotta be some kind of a scam. No one from Atlanta GA is driving to Green Bay WI to pick up a $150 lawn tractor.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

Damn..... Now you're stealing my good CL customers from over in Atlanta (4 hours/250 miles away). There goes any chance of selling that $150 90's Yardman out back of the shop. Might as well just scrap it....


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## andyvh1959 (Jul 1, 2015)

Doubt I'll be selling on CL much at all. I've already been scammed for my $150 Ingersoll tractor by some scum in Atlanta, and now in the past hour I got six identical emails for a portable room AC unit. Bet my email address got sold.


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