# 30 ferguson helpses



## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

hey folks im in need of some suggestions for something i havent thought of i suppose

I was given a 53 to30 because it was sitting in the bramble in a patch of property my neighbor bought.

I had it loaded and drug it home and have been working on it but i cannot get it to fire beyond coughing out the carburetor. When I first started on it earlier this year it would fire ether a bit but mostly it would blow it by lit and id have to put it out.. so i had the cylinder head rebuilt by a shop. As of now it sits in my garage where its been all summer because Im a bit stumped. I have done the following.

1>Rebuilt cylinder head with new springs valves guides and lash caps
Set the lash to .013 on on both caps new head gasket as well
2>Changed the oil took the pan off and inspected the block (also under the cyl head) for cracks which there were none, everything looked fine..
3>New wiring harness and high torque 6v, new wiring harness, new battery that stays on a tender, it cranks well for a 6 volt new starter button ignigtion switch ammeter and regulator
and i do have spark and a good blue spark as well new cap rotor wires condenser and points.
4> the carburetor was completely dis assembled and reassembled with new parts though i dont know where to set the screws, im less concerned about that .. it wont even start up on ether.

I am either timing this tractor incorrectly or there is a trashed cam in there or a ground out timing gear or something is going on here i cannot figure it out can anyone help me?

Ive got the rocker cover off, ive timed this tractor five times now something mechanical is going on while cranking the rockers seem to behave, 

what ive just noticed, is it normal for the exhaust manifold to be inhaling while cranking? if i put my hand over the exhaust manifold i have great suction


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Exhaust should not inhale.. I'll bet u timed it on #1 exhaust stroke & not on the intake stroke.??
Are U SURE u got "YOUR HEAD" back & not an exchange unit.??
Is the disturb. marked for #1 on the outside or cap.??
Do u have a book on the engine/tractor.??{service manual}
Whats your experience w/ engine work.?? is this the 1st time opening 1 up.??
The carb adjustment is critical.. not enough fuel & it wont fire.. to much fuel & it wont fire..
Have u done a compression test.?? THATS probably the easiest thing to check & prob. should have been done BEFORE taking the head off or even STARTING the project..
U can throw 200.00 parts at it till your broke & w/o compression it still wont do anything but sit there & laugh at u..
U can get a 20.00 compression tester at ANY parts place.. & auto Zone will rent u one for FREE..


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Yes I did a compression test before exchanging the head that’s part of my reasoning for doing so. I’m aware throwing parts at mechanical issues is not the right approach but this came to me as a hunk of iron in the weeds. The prosmising part was a crankcase full of black oil not peanut butter sauce. I’m certain the valve train is out. Yes I got my head back. I need to pull the front end open to have a look at the cam gear. This tsx361 is setup close enough to run an engine. When I pulled the rockers off initially somebody had used intake style valve lash caps on two of the exhaust valves which wore down that equipment and there was where my compression was going. I’ve got a compression gauge yes thank you. No matter where I set the distributor it should not be inhaling like that, there is a mechanical issue I’m not seeing I would not have bought parts for it had I not been confident. You are correct there is an art to troubleshooting and asking the right “what’s changed” questions and understanding why that’s important is absolutely paramount. Problem is I’m working backwards investigating and putting it all together. The pushrods looked good but is the cam trashed. Was it replaced incorrectly. Has it got a ground timing gear.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

to check your cam timing, with the tappet cover removed, rotate the engine until the #1 cylinder is on compression stroke and at TDC, that is both the inlet and exhaust rockers should be loose, and #4 cylinder rockers should show the exhaust starting to close and the inlet starting to open,( on TDC #1, both rockers on #4 should be depressed the same equally) this is what we called "on the rock", you can check the rock on #1 the same but have #4 on TDC compression stroke and the same for #2 and #3 cylinders, the thumb over the plug hole while rotating the engine was a good way to find TDC compression stroke.
doing this will also show if the cam is timed right and if the cam lobes are ok.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Exactly at tdc with both #1 rockers loose and the valves shut, number 4 looks the same. This is wrong. On tdc with the flywheel and the first two rockers from the front back loose number four should have one rocking and the only literature I’ve found on setting lash was for a z134 but it said the same thing.. I’m thinking that the lash is exaggeratedly out or the cam is flat or the nose gears are ugly

thank you all for any input


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

so there is no valve overlap on #4 when #1 is at TDC compression stroke ?, which valve is rocking on #4?, must be time to pull the timing cover off and check the cam timing and half time gear !!.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

That’s my thinking stay tuned folks


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

how Do I know my cam isn’t fine but the rockers have been lashed out/in exaggerating the issue, though I doubt lash alone would set number 4 on the rock from tdc at number one unless the cam was helping with lobe 

I’ll pull the cover


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

yes !! pull the tappet cover and check the rock as suggested, you can check all of the cam lobes for wear this way if you had a dial gauge indicator, you can also check the cam lobes for excessive wear by eyeball this way too.
With #1 cylinder on TDC compression stroke, #4 piston will be at TDC also but both the inlet and exhaust valves will be open, if the cam is timed correctly, both valves at #4 should be open equally, on rock as the saying goes.


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## gman51 (Mar 22, 2016)

Sucking air into exhaust is either a bent or sticking valve or timing is way out of whack. Timing that far off could cause a bent valve. With nothing firing while cranking over with ether then you either have no compression or no spark.
A cousin had a Datsun that he had a valve job done on the head. It wouldn't start after reinstalling the head and timing gear/chain. I checked for compression and it was bad on all cylinders. I suspected bent valves due to miss timing the cam to crank. Removed the head and sure enough darn near all valves were bent. We put all new valves in the head and reinstalled and timed correctly. Well how about that the engine then started and ran good.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Whomever owned this creature before me had a problem finding the correct exhaust lash caps as when I found it they were intake style. I have fire and it’s wired correctly. I will put a dial gauge on the pushrods to check lobe but my valves are brand new. It’s a combination of a troubled cam or lash being compensated to run the wrong cap which led to the head needing rebuilt anyhow and it’s lashed out bad. My pushrods aren’t bent either it’s either the cam or the lash or the gear but yes it can bend a rod as is, I’ll sort it out and let everyone know


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

What kind of lift should I be seeing from a to30 cam on each valve 

I know people have been uneasy about the difference between a 30 and 20 cam


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

With your timing your settings of 13 each should work till you get it running, how are you finding TDC? There is a hole in the back of the engine, origonally covered with a metal plug, it allowes you to look at the back of the flywheel, there is a pointer and marks on the back of the flywheel, turning it slowly, find TDC, cyl. 1 or 4 should be at your valve lash settings of 11 and 14, your setting of 13 on each should work to get it started. if 4 is at setting, rotate it 1 rev. so 1 is TDC compression stroke. if something else, you need to split the tractor in front of the engine and remove the timming gear cover and check the cam gear, it may be one of the old fiber timming gears, if so replace it with a new one, and allign the timming marks. then reset the distributor timming to about 7 deg. before TDC. If this doesn't start with the carb idle jet set about 3/4 turn out, and the main jet out 1 turn, chech the weights in the lower part of the distributer to be sure they are free and the springs are good then check timing order, 1342. you did replace the points and condensor, right?
Hope this helps


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## Busted Tractor (May 22, 2018)

Quick checks . with #1 &#4 piston at TDC one of those cylinders will have the rockers rocking. Use a screw driver, welding rod etc to check TDC with the spark plug removed. If neither is rocking you have an issue with the timing gears. You can adjust the valve clearance at the non rocking cylinder and so forth following the firing order. 2. with #1 cylinder at TDC remove the distributor cap, rotor, and cap so you can observe the points. Loosen the distributor and rotate it the way the shaft rotates. Now rotate it opposite the shaft rotates while watching the points. Stop when the points just start to open. Lock down the distributor. #3 set the carburetor about 1 -1 1/2 on the idle and about 2 turns on the load. That should be close enough to at least get it started. Once running the carburetor and timing can be adjusted. By the way Intake should suck exhaust should blow if not need to check camshaft timing as above. Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow----It runs


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

I have the flywheel cover off and I can line up tdc with the mark in the window. I have replaced my points and condenser but I havent investigated the lower part of the distributor. I have pulled the timing cover to inspect my timing gear and whats interesting to me here is that with the crank mark and the timing gear marks lined up, #4 is at tdc on the compression stroke, if i go ahead and spin the crank until #1 is at tdc on compression stroke, im 180 from the factory timing marks on the nose end gears. The cam is calling for tdc on number 1 (#4 valves on the rock) 180 degrees from where the factory timing marks are on the nose gears. I cannot understand why this is. Tdc on the flywheel is in the mark on both of these points (normal). I dont know the history here, did someone install the cam wrong? remember i pulled this guy out of the weeds, the timing cover looks to have never been opened. should i just button it back up and time it with the rotor pointing at number 4? I am also curious why a couple lash caps were the intake style, and when that was done, did that put a chew on the cam on those valves as the added clearances, which is why i was interested in checking lobe height atop the pushrods to evaluate cam health.. attached is a photo of my timing gears, my marks are at the top right. This is where the gears were when i set the crank to tdc compression for number 1 (cam calling for #4 to rock) as i set it to compression stroke number one tdc before pulling the cover and then i made those marks shortly before noticing the two factory timing marks 180 degrees from it. If i go one revolution to the factory marks like is in the photo, #4 is at tdc on compression. I suppose Itll run if i time the distributor here? Ive dropped in distributor to have the rotor 180 from #1 and locked it with the points sparking but not pointing at #4 on its compression stroke.. such an easy puzzle but strange.


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## Busted Tractor (May 22, 2018)

It does not matter on which valves are rocking or not when the timing marks are lined up, but you have confirmed the cam is in time with the crankshaft. To install the distributor you have to be sure you install it timed to the cylinder on compression (not rocking). You can use any cylinder as long as when the points are opening the rotor and wire go to the right cylinder.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Just wondered why they would set the crank and cam to fire on four and not one from the factory, the factory timing marks want #4 to fire 

what are the small gaskets that come with the head gasket kit the small circle guys


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## Busted Tractor (May 22, 2018)

Not necessarily did the set to #4 it is just a mark to set the timing. As for the gaskets there should be 4 rubber rings these are installed on the intake valves to keep oil from running down the stem. Note the intake retainers are two piece. The other two metal usually copper colored rings are for the valve cover studs to seal the valve cover to stud area.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Under the springs? 

Are you sure??


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## Busted Tractor (May 22, 2018)

No I did not say under the springs. If you read what I wrote it states the go in the two piece retainer top down-lash cap-pin-retainer- gasket (the rubber ring) - guard- spring. If you can't visualize it go to www.agcopartsbooks.com and search fro the TO 30. some times it is easier just to search for 30 and then find TO 30


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

yeah I just couldn’t visualize it

thank you for your help


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

Now you have me wondering if someone replaced the cam timing gear and while they reinstalled it the key in the camshaft fell out and was lost and they just tightened down the nut and it never ran again since they never could get it started. If the key fell out, that would be a reason why the exhaust sucks air and the intake blows air. it could also be the crank key missing or shorn.
This kind of has me stumped as I have in my life worked on many TO-30 Fersusons and never ran accross this problem. Are you sure it has the right starter and not one that some how turns the wrong way?


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

I timed it to fire at tdc on number four on its compression because indeed per crank and cam gear the bottom end is out that way, it did crank and sounded good like it was wanting to start. It never would take and I did a compression test with a few squirts of oil in each lung, right around 75 on each. I had the head done thinking poor compression was related initially knowing that even if it weren’t the job would need done anyhow.. the cam is out from the crank and I’m not sure what’s the story on that but as of now I’m looking at pulling the block off and rebuilding the motor. May as well right

I don’t think it’s a sheared key because The cam is dead ringer 180 from #1 I’ll let you know when I get behind the governor but the crank woodruff was dandy, 

Just re ring it or new sleeves
Hmmm


Please everyone keep an eye out for this thread I’m absolutely appreciative


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

trx88 said:


> I timed it to fire at tdc on number four on its compression because indeed per crank and cam gear the bottom end is out that way, it did crank and sounded good like it was wanting to start. It never would take and I did a compression test with a few squirts of oil in each lung, right around 75 on each. I had the head done thinking poor compression was related initially knowing that even if it weren’t the job would need done anyhow.. the cam is out from the crank and I’m not sure what’s the story on that but as of now I’m looking at pulling the block off and rebuilding the motor. May as well right
> 
> I don’t think it’s a sheared key because The cam is dead ringer 180 from #1 I’ll let you know when I get behind the governor but the crank woodruff was dandy,
> 
> ...


75 is kind of low compression on a ferguson but it should run, just might smoke, and burn oil.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Some were lower, do I have to pull the block off to replace the cam 

turn it upside down? I’ll just rebuild it 

it was trying to run blowing blue smoke but as soon as it got off the starter it would die


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

When you had the head off, how much wear was in the cylinders? With the oil you squirted into the cylinders before you checked compression, I would have expected it to smoke as it tried to start, but also would have expected it to have 110-140 compression. as far as replacind the cam you need to take the rocker arms off and roll the engine upside down. I do not think I have ever replaced a cam on a ferguson, but you may have extenuating circumstance. You may be able to get by with just a new set of rings instead of a rebuild kit. around $260 for pistons and sleves with seals & rings.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

I didn’t measure the cylinders with tooling but there were no visible imperfections or nothing I could feel, maybe I should just re ring it I have a hard time believing the cam is flat and the pistons looked good dome and skirt, the only benefit I can think of tearing it down is bearings new sleeves are typically oversized I’m not sure 
What to do


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

I would pull the head, measure the sleeves, check for a lip at the top of the sleeve where the rings wouldn't wear, then make a decision. You would need a set of ID micrometers.
Could I ask where you are located, What state?


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

Illinois south west


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

I used to get oit that way once in a while before my uncle passed.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

What town was he in


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## JLSteiner (Aug 6, 2017)

One in Mundelin Il, one just accross the Arkensas border near a small town called Rosebud.


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

tore it down cleaned the block gathered old sealed power cylinder piston ring and pin sets im about to reassemble stay tuned folks ill take a few photos


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## clark james (Jan 15, 2020)

TRX: Did you take the pistons out the top of the cylinders? Was there a lip at the top of the cylinders? Did you remove the lip BEFORE shoving the pistons out? Please tell me you removed the ridge .

Clark


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## trx88 (Oct 24, 2019)

It wound up having stuck rings on more than one piston and the old liners and pistons are not useable they had been re rung with mismatched rings and being stuck I can tell you the ring shelves were no good on the pistons anyhow but I’ve sourced new sealed power sleeves with pistons wrist pins bearings and rings 5 of them so if I had my way per nostalgia I would put back what I took out but old inventory from an auto store is the next best thing I can do 

at least it’s not Chinese stuff from the catalogs 

I know about the lip you are talking about and I had the motor on the stand they did come out after the crank if I remember either way USA made parts are going back in which is why it’s taken this long I had to find the parts


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