# Hydraulics for Loader - Do I need more than Pressure & Return?



## MikeMike123 (Mar 27, 2009)

I plan on building a loader for my compact tractor (Ford 1210). I am wondering if I am missing something. If I want to use the internal hydraulic pump I believe all I need the tractor to supply is hydraulic pressue and I have to provide a return. Everything else is a function of the loader (i.e control valves, hoses, etc.). I believe as long as I get pressure out of the tractor I can plumb it as required and then provide a return. Am I missing something? I know this tractor has a low GPM pump, so I was considering running off a PTO pump. I assume I would need to create a oil reservior for the loader. Is this a better way to go? Then I can have a seperate fluid system for the loader where I can provide seperate filters and if it makes sense I can even use a different type of fluid...tractor uses hy-trans as it is a HST, should I use straight hydraulic for the loader?

Any advice and guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike


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## chrpmaster (May 5, 2004)

Welcome to the Tractor Forum Mike

As far as tapping into your hydrostatic to supply a loader I think you will be happier with a separate pump. I don't know how much pressure and gpm your hydro will supply but it will probably be very slow moving. Plus another issue is heat buildup in the oil that can lead to expensive hydro failure. Your tractor is designed to provide enough hydro fluid volume and cooling to keep it running. When you add the additional work of the loader you increase the needs. 

If you have the ability to add a seperate pump and tank I would go that direction. You will be able to add the right sized pump to give you the specs you need and provide a big enough tank so the oil will keep cool.

Let us know how you progress with this project. I am thinking about the same type of project but am still noodling on it. Which is probably why it isn't built yet 

Andy


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## MikeMike123 (Mar 27, 2009)

Andy,

Thanks for the reply. I didn't even think about the heat build-up issue. Now that you mention it I agree that a seperate sysytem is the way to go. I think i will go the route of a seperate pump. My tractor has an electric cluth front PTO set-up with a pulley in the front. It should be easy to adapt a belt driven pump for the loader. 

I noticed a lot of "factory" loaders use the "upright" as the oil reservoir, I am now deciding if I should go that route or just see if I can mount a tank somewhere. 

In addition I need some info on where to place a filter. Would it be on the suction side of the pump or on the return line to the tank?

I'll be happy to post the progress. Sometimes I think as a project it is somewhat overwhelming but I am trying to break it down into managable steps. 

Right now I am thinking of overall design and how I will mount it to the tractor. I believe a mount under the tractor would be easiest to build and design but that would require me to remove the belly mower when I use the loader. Not a major deal but it might be nice to do a side mount so I can keep the loader and mower in place at the same time (If I plan on doing a lot of loader work I would remove the mower anyway, but if I have a quick job to do via the loader it might be a pain having to remove the mower and mount the loader...If a tool is not easy to use it doesn't get used).

Does anyone have a Ford 1210 with a loader? Can anyone send me pics of the mounting method?

Thanks again for the info.

Mike


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## chrpmaster (May 5, 2004)

I have also seen the plans that use the uprights as the reservoir. I suppose if there is enough volume it would work but I have read that you need somewhere around one gallon of reservoir capacity for every gallon per minute of pump capacity. So it would be hard to do that just with the uprights unless you use large diameter material. 

I have read where some guys have used an old propane tank as a hydraulic fluid tank. I have a couple that I can't get refilled due to the new regulators so I am thinking one of those would make a dandy tank. 

Andy


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## SHARTEL (Feb 11, 2009)

Wow Mike (and Andy),

Although I do agree in theory about GPM and hy-trans cooling, Your Ford 1210 is a Shibarua built contract tractor for Ford. And to my knowledge the hydrostatic transmission utilizes it’s own internal pump (?). At least I believe so. 

Recently, I had the opportunity to work on a Shibaura 19 HP tractor with a broken loader arm bracket. Simple fix by re-making and re-welding a hydraulic ram ‘ear’ for the upward ram pin and the tractor was good to go. While it was there, I had the chance to inspect the Koyker 125 loader, mounts and hydraulics. The controller was directly supplied by a splice in the high pressure side of the external pump line without using any return line. The high pressure line, adapted to continue the loop into the “IN” port and diverted directly back to the high pressure line from the “OUT” port. NO RETURN or suction line was necessary.This is exactly how I’ve set up several FEL’s on the Yanmar tractors. This Shibaura tractor has a 6.5 GPM pump which allowed the loader to work effortlessly and used the existing hydraulic transmission resevoir for capacity and cooling. The 3PH and FEL worked at the same time, was responsive and neither slowed the others operation.

I would seriously consider looking at other small Ford tractors equipped with a FEL before fabricating for the additional pump, brackets, tank and plumbing. It may not be necessary and allow for a much cleaner installation.

SHARTEL


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## MikeMike123 (Mar 27, 2009)

Shartel,

Thanks for the info. You are correct in that I need to get out and look at similiar Ford tractors before I go to far down the planning and design route. Unfortuantely I do not have many locations to go look. My closest NH dealer is an hour away and when I stopped by a few days ago he had nothing in the way of older compacts with loaders. I've tried to search the net for photos of Ford 1100, 1200 and 1300 series with loaders but can't get locate photos with enough detail. I have purchased a manual for the original Ford loader for the 1210 (Loader 768B) and I am waiting for it to arrive. I am hoping it has some details that might help me with a design. 

I do know my 1210 has a 4.3 gpm pump and the hy-trans fluid capacity is just over 4 gallons (16.4 quart). I don't know the details of fluid capacity to flow rate, but from the info Andy provided of one gallon per GPM it would seem that is how the factory sized the pump and capacity. I guess I need to figure out when all the cylinders on the loader (once built) are fully extended how much fluid is being used and how much is left for the hydro. The last thing I want to do is somehow cause damage to the tractor by adding a FEL. 

I will keep you all posted of my progress and as always welcome any suggestions and guidance. 

Mike


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## MikeMike123 (Mar 27, 2009)

Shartel, 

I have been doing some searching for info regarding the hydraulics on my Ford 1210. I have what the manual refers to as a "hydraulic manifold" (see picture). I am assuming I can access the hydraulics via the 2 ports in this manifold. I can pull pressure off of one port and use the other as a "return". Is this what you were refering to in your post. I assume the part of the manifold that looks like a screwdriver would fit is some sort of selector (it is labeled "O" and "C". 

Am I on the correct path here?

Thanks,

Mike


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## SHARTEL (Feb 11, 2009)

Interesting Mike,

And that's something I've never seen located in the front half on a Shibarura built Ford!


This just has to be a version of remote hydraulics Asian style. I have seen them at, and before, the hydraulic 'Hump' in fron of the Rock shaft assembly. The large acorn nut (at the left of manifold) will be a pressure adjustment with stop nut. I don't know why you couldn't use this to supply the hydraulics for a FEL. I DO know that there are two ways to hook up and when done incorrectly, you still have forward hydraulic pressure for your FEL but can (inadvertently) shut off the fluid power supply to your 3PH hydraulics.


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