# Kohler just "shuts off"



## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, got the mowerdeck on my 224 yesterday and was getting some mowing done. After a time the motor would just shut off, like someone was turning the key off. Seems to be getting gas, becouse when it dies from running out of gas it never backfires, this time it was. 

What I did was when it stopped, I popped open the hood to check everything out, and all looked good. Shut the hood, turned the key, and it fired right up. I mowed a bit more, maybe 10-15 min, and it shut off agean. Checked it all out agean and all looked good, and fired right up. Did this a few time, and as it died I tryed diferent things. Found out when it dies, it looses ALL power. Will not crank eather. and in a few seconds all is fine. I checked all the wires and they LOOK fine. Also it was hot yesterday, and it also seemd to start faster after I opened the hood, as opposed to when I left the hood closed. 

OK, so I am guessing it's heat related. At first I thought it was the coil, but then I found it would not crank eather, so that shot that. Bolth the keyswitch, and the starter seloniod were replaced about two years ago, but I guess they could be bad agean. Any one hears of eather of those being heat senstive? Anything I am missing? 

Thanks for any help.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

OK, it is getting worse. Get about 5 min of running time, then it shuts off, and will not restart for about 15-20min.  

I replace the key switch with a old one, that I thought was still good, and same problem. Also replaced a few quesanable wires with new, and no improvement. 

Realy got me baffled. I have the wire diagram, and it shows the starter, and ing circit totaly serpret except for the key switch. When it shuts off, it just dies, AND no crank. It WILL crank if I jump the two big selonid terms, but will not fire. his has realy got me stumped.     

I also checked battery voltege when it died, to see if maybe there was a short in the battery when it gets hot, but it was right around 13v. This has me stumpped BIGTIME.

Attached is the wire diagram, take a look to see if I am missing anything . I had to mow about an acre with a push mower today, and I am NOT a happy camper


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

sorry forgot the attachment


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## jodyand (Sep 16, 2003)

Maybe the coil is bad and when it gets hot it stops working.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

I thought that also Jody, but it does not crank eather. Unless I am wrong, a bad coil shoud not effect cranking.


This has realy got me baffled. 

Now see if I have this right............

When it dies, I have power at the battery, I have power at the battery termail on the key switch. So power is getting there. 

The starting wire out of the key switch is a grounding wire. All the interlocks are jumpped out also, so I know they are not it.

I can get the motor to crank by jumping the big terms on the seloniod. But no ing.

Ok, See if you follow me...... If I jump power to the ING wire off of the key switch, and jump the two big terms on the selonid and it cranks, and runs it HAS to be the key switch right???? Just seems strange that a old switch that did work, has the SAME problem as the one I took out.


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## jodyand (Sep 16, 2003)

Do you have a wire grounding out on the frame somewhere maybe or a broke wire somewhere in the harness.


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## memmurphy (Sep 18, 2003)

Does your ammeter show any indication? Maybe a bolt is loose somewhere that ties the grounds to the chassis. Just for giggles you might jumper the ammeter and sub the fuse. If the power to the switch feed comes from a seperate terminal on the solenoid, the solenoid could be the problem. If not, the "Y" in the power cable maybe. I'm thinking the circuit may have "fixed" itself by the time you measured the voltage on the switch, or may be dropping under load. You may just have to run it till it dies completely and will no longer start after a cool down period. Worse case, something could be burning the switches out, but the fuse should go first.

Mark


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

The Ammeater is already jumped. It gave me fits two years ago with a starter problem. Ammeater went bad, and killed all power. Jumpped it till I can take the oil tank out and replace it.

The power wire to the switch come right from the bat side of the seloid and is fused, and only about 5 inches long. No breaks, good shape.


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## Neil_nassau (Feb 23, 2004)

Good Morning,
Ive read and reread your posts. If you're losing the ignition and the start circuit,that certainly points to something in the safety circuits even though you have modified them. Something is shutting down both ,and they usually ARE seperate circuits until you get to the key switch. You can check it for function by a volt-ohm set for continuity and walk the switch thru each position. Shake it while you do to see if anythings "loose " inside. Broken pieces of a internal part can drive you nuts.
Other than that........I suggest you go back and check your safety circuit closely. jumpered and defeated safety circuits are a regular
electrical problem in our shop.
Electrical diagnostics takes time and patience. 
Im going back to check your wiring diagram again.
Regards,


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## Neil_nassau (Feb 23, 2004)

Safety circuit on this machine is pretty basic since its a battery ignition.Notice that for the "Solenoid" to get ground,this is a 'harness grounded solenoid", the switches must be in their neutral positions ( or jumpered as you have stated). Check for a good ground for the solenoid. 
The negative on the orange wire is a liitle misleading since it brings cuurent to the key switch for distribution to the "start" and "ignition" during starting ........and returns amps to the battery during the "run" process. Thats why the regulator output is on the same lug of the keyswitch as the 'ignition" (battery ignition) circuit.
Something is disturbing the whole process.......I bet you'll find a bad wire. Use a volt-ohm set for continuity ,(best if its a meter with a tone for cont) use alligator clips on each wire end and shake the wire up and down its length. We've found wires bad inside the insulation before.
Good Luck.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

The whole safty circit is totaly disabled. I ran a short wire right to ground from the solenoid.


Strange... I could think of a bunch of ways that the ing would lose power, but not that AND the starting circet. Well heading out to try to find the bug........wish me luck


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

Sounds like you have run the electrical rabbit in the hole. The next time it dies on you; immediately check to see if you have a spark and are getting fuel. If those check out OK; I hate to suggest this but you may have an exhaust valve which is either sticking in the open position when the engine warms up or may be possibley bent. No compression = no burn. This would account for the sudden engine stoppage after a short time and starting up just fine after it cools off. My father had a Kohler on a Cub that would the same thing except emit a loud pow! or pop from the engine and die. Would not restart until it cooled off. It was a stuck valve. My brother inlaw had a similar issue with his Cub and was frequently having to replace the coil. I believe it ended up being some how related to a fault ground t the system and a bad voltage regualtor. Hope this gets you on the right track.


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

Almost sounds like a vapor lock!!The no cranking part is what confuses me.


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## Neil_nassau (Feb 23, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *The whole safty circit is totaly disabled. I ran a short wire right to ground from the solenoid.
> 
> 
> Strange... I could think of a bunch of ways that the ing would lose power, but not that AND the starting circet. Well heading out to try to find the bug........wish me luck *


If I read you correctly when it dies ........you turn the key and the engine won't turn over,correct? Does the solenoid "click " at all?
Once this engine is running (according to your wiring diagram) the 12 volts produced from the alternator supplies the voltage to the ignition coil. NO spark,no turn over = something on the battery side/solenoid side. ground or a wire related.check your jumper around the amp meter.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

yup will not turn over. No clicking eather. 

The amp meter jump was an easy one. A wire came out of the hot sice of the solenoid,[what always has power, eaven when it dies] went to the amp gage, then to the key. I ran a short, fused wire derect to the key. New wire, only anout 4"long. 


Now digging around I see some of the connections down byt the voltage reg, and kinda yucky. I figured that could cause my no ING problem, but the cranking problem?? In this system, the cranking cercit looks totaly serpret from the ing.

Also Something that I thought of yesterday wile diaging, and mowing...... Maybe they are two sepret problems.  Maybe I have a hot cranking problem, but only notice it when the motor dies from loseing ing.  I will rewire the reg connections, then give it a test. After a bit of hot mowing, when I would think it is getting ready to die, I will shut it off, and try to crank it. 


Got to love these types of problems huh


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

BTW yesterday I bypassed everything that was not needed to run the tractor. Lighting circit, hour meter, everything. Had the hot term to the key, the starter ground circt to the seloniod, and the ing/volt reg wire, thats it. Still died.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chief _
> *Sounds like you have run the electrical rabbit in the hole. The next time it dies on you; immediately check to see if you have a spark and are getting fuel. If those check out OK; I hate to suggest this but you may have an exhaust valve which is either sticking in the open position when the engine warms up or may be possibley bent. No compression = no burn.  This would account for the sudden engine stoppage after a short time and starting up just fine after it cools off. My father had a Kohler on a Cub that would the same thing except emit a loud pow! or pop from the engine and die. Would not restart until it cooled off. It was a stuck valve. My brother inlaw had a similar issue with his Cub and was frequently having to replace the coil. I believe it ended up being some how related to a fault ground t the system and a bad voltage regualtor. Hope this gets you on the right track. *


nope no spark when it dies. No cranking eather.


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## Neil_nassau (Feb 23, 2004)

When you're in the nostart/no ignition state........you say you have 12 volts to the solenoid. Is the solenoid "closing" the battery circuit? Do you have 12 volts at the starter? The solenoid is just a switch,controlled by another switch.
Also,since this is battery ignition (points /condenser/coil)....if charge system or battery is not up to par,engine will run off the battery until it runs it down.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

Well still doing it. 

I rewire all the bad connections in the reg circit.[no idea how it was charging. Wires REAL bad!!] went out for a test mow.........well 10 min later it dies.  

Installed a new key switch, died........

AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Only thing I can think of is it HAS to be more then one problem. I see nothing else that controls bolth the starting, and ing circits. 


Well now I am doing a peice by peice swap out of parts to see what happands. First is the condencer. I put new points in a year or so ago, but never replaced the condencer, so I will do that first. Then if still no go, I will check point adjustment, then replace the coil, etc etc.[nice to have another tractor with the same motor in it, to swap parts off of ]

MAN this is driving me crazy. The lawn is like 6-8 in long, and I am SICK of using a push mower


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *AUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Well still doing it.
> ...


Good minds think alike...I've been giving this some thought and the condenser popped into my head this morning....keep us posted


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

see what has got me is the condencer in no way is connected to the cranking system.  

Only thing is I can figure is there HAS to be two problems


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

Have you tried jumping the starter direct when this occurs?


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

yup and it cranks, but no fire. At first I thought maybe the battery was shorting out when hot so I tryed this. [never seen that happan, but I guess anything is possable]


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## memmurphy (Sep 18, 2003)

Well on the bright side you avoided some future problems by cleaning the wiring up. You know of course that the part that cures it will be the last part that you swap that could possibly cause the problem. (Murphy's Law #10056.95B) I spent several hours once on the old Jake trying to locate a stalling after running for a few minutes problem only to find the vent plugged on the gas cap. :duh: The simplest problems always seem the hardest to find.

Mark


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by memmurphy _
> * I spent several hours once on the old Jake trying to locate a stalling after running for a few minutes problem only to find the vent plugged on the gas cap. :duh: The simplest problems always seem the hardest to find.
> 
> Mark *


Funny story about that......[yes BTW I checked that ]

I work at a car dealer, and one of the tech's had a problem with his mower. You got to know this guy is an A+ tech. Never seen a car he could not fix. So he was talking to me about it, and telling me how it would run for about 10 min and just die, then start up in a few min. So I told him, when it dies, take off the cap, and see what happands. Next day he comes in going "Thanks Paul, you just saved me $150!!!!" A lot of times it will be the simplle stuff that gets you.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

OK, well I changed the condencer last night, and went out to do some mowing. OMG it ran A LOT better!! Not skipping as much, more power. Ran nice. So I am mowing, about 15min into it, its still running great, and I think"hew I got it!!!" Then it dies!!!!!!!!!!   


Good thing at least I got a good 1/2 hour of mowing in, becouse it ran for a wile after it restarted. 

So I realy am thinking I have a few problems all added up here. Next I am going to check the points, then set, and time the motor. If that still does not do it, I will then swap in another coil to see if that helps. 

Well the good thing,as mark was saying, the stuff is bad anyways, guess it is just telling me to get off my ass and fix it all. 

So wish me luck. The grass is growing, and REALY needs to be cut!!!!!


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## GreenMtnMan (Jan 9, 2004)

Don't know if this will help any but I'll toss it out there. We have a 94 Ford Taurus SHO that developed a problem where it would be running fine and then just die. Nobody could figure it out. Poking around on the internet in the SHO groups turned up a problem where the wiring to the MAF sensor could get old and stiff and the resistance increased. I spliced in a new wire and the problem was fixed.


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *
> So I realy am thinking I have a few problems all added up here. Next I am going to check the points, then set, and time the motor. If that still does not do it, I will then swap in another coil to see if that helps.
> 
> *


Maybe a *NEW* condensor and points are in order


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

the condensor is new, I got it awile ago, but never got it installed. Going to check the points, but will probably just toss in a new set sence I am setting them anyway.


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

So what is the latest update with your Kohler Paul? Got her running right yet?


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well I was gone for the weekend, so no work on it. But I did try to mow with it when I got home, and she ran for about 20 min then died. Removed the hood, and it ran fine. Mowed for about 2 hours. Something must be heat soaking underthere, and with the hood off, it was cool. Well at least I got the lawn mowed, and I know that wile I am trying to find the problem, I can still mow with it, so I am happy. Going to pick up the points this week, and give that a shot.


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ingersoll444 _
> *Well I was gone for the weekend, so no work on it. But I did try to mow with it when I got home, and she ran for about 20 min then died. Removed the hood, and it ran fine. Mowed for about 2 hours. Something must be heat soaking underthere, and with the hood off, it was cool. Well at least I got the lawn mowed, and I know that wile I am trying to find the problem, I can still mow with it, so I am happy. Going to pick up the points this week, and give that a shot. *


Now your getting somewhere...would excessive temperature affect a coil?


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## GreenMtnMan (Jan 9, 2004)

Yes, excess temperature can affect a coil. This was a common occurance when I lived in Phoenix.


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

Paul, you wouldn't by chance have in inline coil resistor somewhere on the tractor would you? This was a not all that unusual occurance on the old Chrylser engines that had this set up. The coil resistor wire would crack and when it got hot enough, expand and break the circuit.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

not that I know of Chief. I will check though.


The points are first, if that does not fix it, I will swap the coil frm my 444.


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## Live Oak (Dec 22, 2003)

It will be interesting to see if this works. Make sure to post a feedback.


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

God Paul.........we gotta find an answer as this is driving me batty...and it's an awful short trip:lmao:


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

lol.


Driving YOU batty!!!! I have rewired whole cars without this much problems


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Argee _
> *Now your getting somewhere...would excessive temperature affect a coil? *



Ya ya ya I know... I should have listrened to you...........   


Ok, had some time to work on it today. Why you ask? Well, becouse it started dieing eaven with the hood off.  

Brought her in the garage, and checked the points/timming. Well the point gap should be .020, well, it was about .010. Other then that the points looked great. reset the points...... same problem, but runs ALOT better. Pull the plug wire off, figure I wil replace it becouse it's loose. Ummm ahhhh should there be oil coming out the top of the coil?    . OK, well ya I know, you all told me. Put the coil on from my 444 and runs great, not a skip. I have not got the hood back on, but I bet thats it. I figured the coil was bad, what was what was causing it to stall, but the starting???? Well, I bet the point gap, what also effects timing on these motors, being so off, was making the motor run hotter, effecting the starter, or seloniod. We will see how next weeks mowing goes with the hood on.


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, guess what?? 

Put the hood on, and went out to mow. Was mowing for about an hour, hour and a half, figured I had fixed it.


NOTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!

She stalled. Same way. Just shuts off, and will not crank eather. I am lost. runs great with the hood off, so I can mow, but something is STILL wrong.


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## Argee (Sep 17, 2003)

Something is heating up and shutting it down...the hood being on is compounding the matter....we just need to figure out what:argh:


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## psrumors (Apr 25, 2004)

When you say it wont crank, do you mean wont turn over or wont start?


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## Ingersoll444 (Sep 17, 2003)

Will not turn over. 


his is realy driving me batty. 

Next I am going to run a new wire from the key to the coil. Just in case there is a break in the wire that only opens up hot.


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