# Gear Reduction Starter



## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Hi All,

Got a nice '68 Ford 5000 gasoline tractor. Everything works on her and I've upgraded a bunch of things to make her work better. Alternator, Pertronix ignition, etc.

One of the chores I use the machine for is snow removal. That is where I'm running into a problem. Starting.

In warmer weather (even as low as 40 degrees, she starts right up without any issues. In fact, I rarely need the choke.

In the cold, it has to be full choke or it just does not start. But I have another issue. The starter has a tough time turning over the engine in the cold with the choke. I get a slow labored crank. Just not enough torque. It's not the battery as that is fairly new and kept on a Solar Maintainer. I don't think its the starter being bad as I'd had it rebuilt not long ago and it seems to work just fine until the temps go down. (for the record, I'm talking in the teens Fahrenheit - so -5 to -10 C)

I'm wondering if anyone has tried putting a gear reduction starter on a tractor. The idea being that you spin an electric motor faster and use gears to reduce the high speed to a "normal" starter speed. This vastly increases torque which is what I think I need. Other benefits should be a lower power consumption and probably slightly smaller size. (i.e. more room to work around)

Just curious if anyone had done this before I go and try to find or have such an animal made.


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

I have installed gear reduction starters on a couple of tractors.
on my Oliver 1550 it really helped with the cold weather starting,
on my IH 574 I went to far, the cranking speed is about the same regardless 
of the temperature and she will crank forever but it is greared down a bit to much 
and doesn't have enough speed.

That said on a gas engine (both of those are diesels) I'd be cleaing all the ground connections and checking the cable conditions closely, I have seen cables that got corroded internally.
Doing a voltage drop test while the engine is being cranked over will tell you a lot,
one volt meter lead on the battery + one on the starter battery lead, the closer to 0 volts while cranking the better.

Also I don't know what oil you have in your tractor but I would try a different oil first such as Rotella T6 in 5W-40 or a Amsoil 5W-30 or 40 that may cure your problem by it's self.

As far as starters go;
Rare Electric,
Dixie Electric,
DB electric,
are all somewhat reasonable.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

I am using a Rotella 5w-30. (factory spec is straight 30 weight in warmer weather) I was thinking of one of the synthetic 0w-30, but its a bit expensive and I don't think it would help that much.

While all my electrics are new as of the summer of 2018, I did test the voltage from the battery to the solenoid and finally to the starter and it's good. There is surface corrosion, but the contacts are solid and the entire length shows no measurable drop and reads zero ohms of resistance.

In fact, when I hooked up an SUV to jump start, I didn't get much of a result. This tells me that the tractor's battery is delivering all the amps the starter can use and adding more won't change anything. There is just a lot of resistance the starter must overcome. And yes, the starter is quite warm after cranking. The same starter is speced for the 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000. The other three machines are a 3 cylinder engine. Perhaps the 4th cylinder in the cold is just enough resistance to cause trouble. The diesel starter is different, but I can't find a clear answer as to if my 5000 can use the diesel starter. Some places tell me the ring gear on the flywheel has a different tooth count, other sources tell me that the 5000 in my model year was changed (the engine DID change about mid year - I have a late Sept build)

I was wondering about the cranking speed. Like I said, this thing fires up without any trouble or even a choke when it's more temperate out. It the cold, the crank just isn't as fast and I think that is the reason it struggles. Once I can get the starter to spin at a reasonable speed, it starts. Typically after the machine is sitting in the sun for a bit.

My fear is that the gear reduction would give a good crank, but it would be too slow. 

Thanks for the contacts. I'll talk to them and see what their offerings are like.


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## Bob Driver (Nov 1, 2017)

At one time, I managed the maintenance on a fleet of 1,200 Frito-Lay route trucks. 400+ had one of the worst starting diesel engines ever made, 6.5L GM. Frito drivers have to stock the shelves in a store and their route is usually 40-50 stops per day. Company policy was to shut the engine off while the driver was away from the truck. That meant you were starting an engine 40-50 times a day that had a 27:1 compression ratio.

An OEM Delco-Remy starter lasted on average about 90 days. Was able to get warranty on the starter itself most of the time, but the real cost was in the replacement labor, down time, and usual tow on the truck. 

Started switching over to Nippon Denso gear reduction starters. Price was about the same as a OEM Delco, but they lasted 3+ years on average, even in that harsh environment. 

From that point on, I've been sold on gear reduction starters. I spec'd gear reduction starters on every truck I bought for the last 20 years of my career as a Fleet Manger and that averaged 50-100 trucks per year. It was rare to see a gear reduction starter fail in the 6 year life-cycle on a 450HP class-8 semi-tractor, even the ones that were operating in North Dakota and Minnesota in the winter. From my experience, you won't be disappointed with the switch......

https://www.densoheavyduty.com/starter/medium-heavy-duty


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

An Update....

Well, a starter came in. Bolted up OK. But the pinion gear on the starter is a larger diameter than that on the old one. Sure enough, it won't engage the ring gear.

Let me just complain about how freaking cold it is trying to swap out a large chunk of ice cold metal. And that back bolt? ARGH!!! Bad enough in nice conditions. *grumble grumble* And then, I had to put the old one BACK!

In the process of returning it.

Getting told now that there are no gear reduction starters for my machine. (Say What?)

Here is a side by side: The starter on the left is my old one, the one on the right is the one sent to me that does not work. Obviously different pinion sizes.









The <nice company rep> says the starter they sent is for a Diesel. Except that at some point didn't the 5000 use the same ring for both gas and diesel? In any case, I did my own searching on their site and found another starter for a 5000 that looks like this:









They also claim that this starter is for the diesel. Except if you look at the lands between the teeth, it looks far more like my current starter than the "Diesel" one I was sent. 

So, I'm shipping back the wrong one and I ordered the one above in hopes that it is actually the right application. 

While I'm waiting for the next delivery and a relatively mild day to do a starter swap, anyone in the know want to chime in on this? Did I make a good choice? Or did I just stamp my entry into the "Dumbass of the Year" award for 2021?

My only other concern with this second model is the high mounted motor. Can't really determine exact dimensions from the photo, but worried this will hit the fuel line feeding the sediment bowl going to my carb. Here is the profile reversed from how it would attach to the tractor. This side would be against the engine, but it gives a decent idea how large it is.









And this is how my current starter fits:








Red arrow is where I fear it will hit. I've done some measurements by comparing the flange size to the relative height in the photo and the flange on an actual starter and the motor will be about 6cm above the flange, or roughly twice the height of the hood on my current starter, so it's plenty high enough to hit. The problem is length. I can't get a real accurate relative measurement from the photo. Best guess is it will fit, but BARELY. 

The only other issue is that it looks like it has an internal solenoid:








Green is where the battery wire should connect. I'm thinking the red is a solenoid. I guess I could just jumper it to the battery connection. Did the Diesel 5000's come with an internal solenoid? Strange that the service manual does not really call out any of these differences. Oh well, the Starter Take 2 is on the way. Will know shortly if I did good or qualified for DAoY award. (^_^)

Wouldn't be my Ford 5000 if everything didn't have a little drama involved. (^_^)

On the off chance that this does not work, does anyone know if a standard starter can be rebuilt to give more torque? Anyone have any other ideas for cold weather starting? Just annoying that she fires right up if the temp is 30 degrees + ( -1 C ) But somewhere between there and 20 degrees ( -7 C) it just cranks too slow. It's not the battery because I can hook up another vehicle and it does not change the result, so it's not starving for amps, it simply can't turn with enough torque under a certain temp.


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## bmaverick (Feb 20, 2014)

MrChris said:


> I'm wondering if anyone has tried putting a gear reduction starter on a tractor. The idea being that you spin an electric motor faster and use gears to reduce the high speed to a "normal" starter speed. This vastly increases torque which is what I think I need. Other benefits should be a lower power consumption and probably slightly smaller size. (i.e. more room to work around).


YES. I've upgrade a Deere JD850 from the solenoid style to the OffSet Gear Reduction Starters (OSGR) found in modern tractors and vehicles. The solenoid type was a Hitachi 1.4kW version. The Denso was a 2.0kW version. Never had to use the thermostart after the upgrade. 

This is the old style









This is the OSGR style









Source: http://www.metroplexalternator.com/starters.html


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

A hot ignition will get it starting much easier. When I redid the carb on my 420, I never hooked up the choke again, it starts great in the cold. Now it does spin very fast too thanks to the 12v conversion, but the hot ignition was a drastic difference.

Synthetic oil is going to have a lower pour point than dino oil of the same weight, in general. That will impact the resistance of the engine to turn over in real cold weather. It's easy to try for 1 oil change. If it works, great. If no improvement, you aren't out that much since you'd have had to get oil any ways.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Groo said:


> A hot ignition will get it starting much easier.


Not sure what you mean by "hot ignition". I'm currently running a premium 12v coil with the Pertronix kit. In fact, it's a Pertronix coil. When the starter can spin the engine (i.e. not super cold) she starts up in just a second. When cool, I do use the choke, but I have to be ready to go to half almost instantly or it dies. I run half about 15-20 seconds and then it's good. 

Once the temps get somewhere in the mid to low 20's, the starter just isn't turning the engine enough. Even with plenty of battery power (i.e. with a jump) the rotation is the same. An extremely slow labored grind and you can hear it as each compression peaks as it slows more for a split second. A slow pulsing effect.

I've only tried to start it as low as about 10 degrees. I can imagine much colder and the starter might not turn at all. 



Groo said:


> Synthetic oil is going to have a lower pour point than dino oil of the same weight, in general.


Currently running Rotella 5w-30. I could go to a 0w-30, but that would just push the temp a bit lower. And I fear not much lower as the current temperature impact is quite dramatic.

I did discover that in 1971, the 5000 gas version changed to use the Diesel starter, so there was some kind of obvious issue that needed to be solved. Sadly, to change to the Diesel I'd need to replace my ring gear as the pinion does not line up (as I discovered). To do that is to break the tractor. 

If Starter V2 does not do the trick, I'm going to have to contact a bunch of specialty shops and see if someone out there can build me a proper solution. Would still be cheaper overall than having to replace a ring gear as I have no means to split a tractor.

The problem is the starter not having enough torque in the cold. That is what I need to solve.


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## pogobill (Jan 31, 2012)

Do you have a block heater of any sort? Maybe a well placed magnetic heater could be of help. When it gets cold here and I have a use for the tractor, I'll plug it in for an hour or so before I need it. Makes a world of difference, and I think it is much easier on the old girl when it fires up.


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## HarveyW (Sep 15, 2014)

pogobill said:


> Do you have a block heater of any sort? Maybe a well placed magnetic heater could be of help. When it gets cold here and I have a use for the tractor, I'll plug it in for an hour or so before I need it. Makes a world of difference, and I think it is much easier on the old girl when it fires up.


I agree with the block heater idea. Do you have the 4DLT battery installed on your tractor? 860 cold-cranking amps.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

MrChris said:


> Not sure what you mean by "hot ignition". I'm currently running a premium 12v coil with the Pertronix kit. In fact, it's a Pertronix coil. When the starter can spin the engine (i.e. not super cold) she starts up in just a second. When cool, I do use the choke, but I have to be ready to go to half almost instantly or it dies. I run half about 15-20 seconds and then it's good.
> 
> Once the temps get somewhere in the mid to low 20's, the starter just isn't turning the engine enough. Even with plenty of battery power (i.e. with a jump) the rotation is the same. An extremely slow labored grind and you can hear it as each compression peaks as it slows more for a split second. A slow pulsing effect.
> 
> ...


I stuck a high voltage piggyback ignition system on my deere, and opened up the gap pretty drastically, like 060. It has a modular that detects the spark from the old system, then sends out its own spark to the distributor. I had this from years ago. It never lived up to any prossises made for a semi-modern ignition, but it is seriously noticeable on a points system. 
Not too many of those floating around, but maybe you could step up to a more modern ignition from a ford?

To my point about the oil; something like mobile 1 5w30 will likely have a lower pour point than your rotella 5w30.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

pogobill said:


> Do you have a block heater of any sort?


Oh, trust me, I've been looking at that too. The problem is how far the machine is from an outlet even if I move it before the storm hits. Since the machine needs to start in the cold mostly for snow removal, having to dig out the cord before the removal would not be a fun time. Of course, the location closest to an outlet (allowing just a 100 ft extension cord) is also where the most snow drifting occurs. Not uncommon for a 12" storm to see a 4-5 ft drift in that location. Not the best place to park. (^_^)

Then you have the issue if the power goes out which it tends to do with major storms. Yes, I have a generator, but it's sized just to power the basics, not that and a 20 amp block heater and I'd still have a cable distance issue.

I've even gone so far as to calculate the length and wire gauge needed to trench a dedicated circuit with an all weather outlet out near the machine's regular parking location and it's a long 4 gauge wire run that would cost nearly $1000 just in the wire.

This is also why I use a solar battery maintainer. 



HarveyW said:


> I agree with the block heater idea. Do you have the 4DLT battery installed on your tractor?












Yup. Installed the summer of 2019 along with all new wire. I thought the small battery that was there when I bought it was the issue. We never really had any super cold days in the 2019/2020 season, so I didn't see the issue that year. I did verify that the cells were full in the fall. Also, I get no better starter performance if I hook up a car too. It's not a lack of amps.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Groo said:


> I stuck a high voltage piggyback ignition system on my deere, and opened up the gap pretty drastically, like 060. It has a modular that detects the spark from the old system, then sends out its own spark to the distributor. I had this from years ago. It never lived up to any prossises made for a semi-modern ignition, but it is seriously noticeable on a points system.
> Not too many of those floating around, but maybe you could step up to a more modern ignition from a ford?


I no longer have points. The Pertronix ignition replaced the entire points plate with something that looks like this: (not the exact product for the Ford distributor, but very similar)









The black cylinder goes over the lobed rotor that moves the points. In the cylinder is a set of magnets that the pickup senses. When a magnet passes the sensor, it grounds the coil. Since it's designed to work with full 12v, it can power a fairly hefty coil directly. The Pertronix "Flame Thrower" coil is a 1.5ohm 40,000 volt coil. I did open the gap on the plugs to .042 as instructed by the Pertronix documentation. So, I think I've got something similar to your setup ultimately. I've had great experience with this company's products. Been running one of these in my '46 Willys for over a decade now and had a similar setup in a CJ5. Only a few people ever notice the extra wire coming from the distributor to the positive terminal of the coil (to power the sensor)



Groo said:


> To my point about the oil; something like mobile 1 5w30 will likely have a lower pour point than your rotella 5w30.


Rotella is a synthetic.








You are correct. Mobil 1's Pour Point is -45 C (-49 F) and my Rotella is only -42 C (-43 F), but for some reason I don't think that is going to make a difference in my situation. (^_^) I've also been told that the Rotella has additives that are beneficial to older tractor engines. I forget exactly what, it was a couple years ago when I looked to see what was recommended for these old motors. And who knows if the advice was accurate. (^_^)

Thank you for the suggestions. I was really hoping to find something that might work.


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## Groo (Jan 17, 2020)

Hmm. Surprised it's still problematic. I didn't realize Rotella was availiable in a "full" synthetic
Hopefully your new starter is the missing key.


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## Hightech1953 (Dec 30, 2018)

Have you called DB Electric ?


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

OK. I've not had very good luck with DB Electric. That said, their customer support has been AMAZING. 

I went with them for my Alternator conversion. When I first started the tractor after installing the alternator, it very quickly let all the magic smoke out. DB Electric swapped the alternator for a new one and even paid the shipping. A week later I had the new part and it's worked wonders since. All this when the kit had been ordered as a Christmas gift and wasn't installed until the following summer. Nearly 9 months from the sale to the return. Can not beat that kind of service.

I contacted them about getting a OSGR starter and they quickly sent me one. Alas it was for a diesel.

I had that one returned on their dime and had another sent. This one looks to have the right pinion for the gas motor, but the length of the starter was just far too large to get into the tractor. Even if I modified the fuel line to eliminate the sediment jar, the length would have hit the carb. Again, DB took this one back without any issues. Sadly, that was all they had for me.

I'll keep trying DB Electrical. At the very least, they try hard and I appreciate that.

I did call Rare Electrical. They could not find a solution.

I spent the past week searching for a proper OSGR starter. Unable to find the answer on my own, I contacted a local mobile electrical specialty shop for help. Ultimately they found what I needed. Once I had a part number, I did find it on line for less, but since I prefer to do business with local companies, I paid a bit more through them.

Anyone in the Northeast that would prefer to support a small business, you want to talk with Brian at Chelmsford Auto Electric (800) 649-0240 [email protected] and their part number for this is: 9313SL-UPG-N It is a special order item for them, but if you can't pick it up at their shop, you can discuss having it shipped direct.

So, you can actually get the best deal on this from the devil organization known as Amazon here: 

https://www.amazon.com/Reduction-C5NF-11001-B-HD7NN11001AR-C7NF-11001-B-91-02-5799N/dp/B07D2VK7VW/










Mine looks exactly like this, so it's probably the same source. Install is straight forward with just 3 bolts holding the starter in and one nut holding the electrical wire. Bolts are 9/16" and the nut is 12mm. You do need to create a short jumper from the post terminal to the terminal inside the black plastic cover above it. Went from this:










To this:










As you can see, the fit is a little tight, but the trimmer electric motor tucks up nicely behind the fuel line. On the 3 cylinder models, this could be an interference issue, but I did have some space to rotate the sediment jar a little to clear the motor if I had to. No idea how much tighter the 3 cylinder is, but it still might fit.










Absolutely turns with much better authority. However, the real test will be when it gets cold. Starting in 40 degrees was never a problem, its when it is colder that matters. We won't see temps below freezing really until Monday, so I do need to wait for the final test. I will say that the engine turned over quick. Cold start at full choke in like 2 seconds. Not bad for a machine that has been sitting since the last snow before Christmas. I do keep a 10w solar maintainer on the battery, but it was still a very fast start. Can't wait to see what she does at dawn on Monday where we might have only 18 degrees out. (-11 C)

Install notes:

Normally, the bolt on the top on the inboard side is a bear to get started. With this starter, it was even more of a PIA. I had the two closer bolts in and loose and fought to get the back one for maybe 10 minutes until it began to thread. This rear bolt is also where I ground the entire machine as the battery negative cable attaches here - you know, just to make things even more interesting. Just not a lot of space back there to work. The mounting flange is thicker on this starter than the original. I put slightly longer bolts in as a result. There is plenty of thread in the block and the flywheel is out of the way, but I did need to chase the holes with a tap to clean out the 50 years of gunk, especially on the lower bolt. 

All in all, this was not the easiest experience, but I hope that the link and data above will help others seeking a replacement for the *D7NN-11001-A* family of starters with a OSGR style. BTW, the part number for the new one is: *C5NF-11001-B 
*
If you google the part number, you can find several sources. The Evil Empire Amazon manufacturer is listed as Gladiator USA, but I can't find a direct link to that. 

Specs: (according to the box it came in)
Voltage: 12v DC
Pinion: 1.264" (32.1mm)
Teeth: 10
Rotation: CW
Output: 3 kw. (So, roughly 250 amps needed) This is even higher than the 1.8 kw rating I see listed for many of the factory replacements.

I'll be sure to post the results of the cold weather test.

I also have to get out the rattle cans come spring. That's a lot of shiny metal there. Probably paint the motor black and the rest Ford Blue. (^_^)


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## LouNY (Dec 15, 2016)

Looks good hope it works good for you.


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

I think you will get better power feed if you get rid of the old solenoid. That also gives less parts that can give you trouble in the future. Run a new battery (+) cable directly to the starter battery stud and move the wires that are on the battery stud on the old solenoid, and put them together with the battery cable on the starter battery stud. Move the wire that actuates the old solenoid to the solenoid lug on the starter.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Hacke said:


> I think you will get better power feed if you get rid of the old solenoid. That also gives less parts that can give you trouble in the future. Run a new battery (+) cable directly to the starter battery stud and move the wires that are on the battery stud on the old solenoid, and put them together with the battery cable on the starter battery stud. Move the wire that actuates the old solenoid to the solenoid lug on the starter.


Ideally, this would be the best course of action. However, the solenoid and the 600 amp battery and starter cables were all replaced new in the summer of 2019. It would be a waste to replace and buy a longer cable when what is there is still new. I'd also need to replace the wire from the starter switch to the solenoid which is wrapped in a harness and covered in protective tubing.  Certainly I'm not opening all that during the winter. We'll see how things go.


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## Ultradog (Feb 27, 2005)

I haven't followed this thread and just gave it a cursory read now.
A couple of things come to mind.
First, you stated you replaced the battery cables. What size cables did you use?
If you used a typical automotive type cable they won't carry the amps that your big battery can provide.
I make my own cables from #0 welding cable. I use brass solder-on connectors on both ends if both cables. Then finish them off














with heavy shrink tubing.
Also, I'm not so familiar with the 5000s. Does your gasser use the fine tooth or coarse tooth ring gear? If it is the coarse tooth like is used on the diesels you might have used a diesel starter. The way the fuel line enters the carburetor could easily be changed as those Holleys can be fed from the right, left or rear. Moving the fuel inlet might have given you enough room to get a diesel starter in there.
It looks like you got it now though.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Ultradog said:


> First, you stated you replaced the battery cables. What size cables did you use?


The cable itself is some very flexible stuff used to power high end audio systems. Rated at 600 amps at 12v DC. The lugs are crimped and soldered. Probably should have found some large diameter shrink wrap, but I've had these same cables feeding my Jeep's winch for over 10 years and never had any issues there. Believe it or not, my local NAPA made these for me. They claim the cable itself is NASA rated. If the motor's 3kw rating is correct, it should only need 250 amps at 12v. So, these cables are overkill as it is.



Ultradog said:


> Also, I'm not so familiar with the 5000s. Does your gasser use the fine tooth or coarse tooth ring gear?


When I started this thread, I would not have been able to answer that. Now, I know. The 5000 uses the same starter and ring gear as the 2000-4000 gas models up until 1971. So, mine is the fine 128 tooth ring that uses the smaller pinion gear. Sometime in 1971 (I didn't bother to look up when as it does not apply to me) the starter was changed from the gas version to the diesel on all 5000's. Probably exactly because of the issue I've been having. 



Ultradog said:


> Moving the fuel inlet might have given you enough room to get a diesel starter in there.


Actually, the first OSGR starter I tried was for the diesel and it fit just fine. Had it all bolted in, just would not engage the ring gear. The second one is a mystery as the pinion measured right at about 1.25", but the length of the starter would have hit the carburetor (not just the fuel line) It was a monster. (22 lbs) And like the 3-bears, this one is just right. (^_^)


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## Hacke (Feb 22, 2011)

It seems that your engine is newer than June 1, 1971. If it were the original engine from 1968, the ring gear should have 162 teeth. Maybe just the flywheel is changed.
https://avspare.com/catalog/newholland/52013/20617/361285/

The diesel engines had 128 teeth all years.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Hacke said:


> If it were the original engine from 1968, the ring gear should have 162 teeth. Maybe just the flywheel is changed.


You are correct. Mine is the 162 tooth. Makes sense as it is a larger diameter (thus the smaller pinion). Misread my notes. (^_^) Thank you for the correction.


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## MrChris (Oct 4, 2018)

Well, the weather has not been cooperating. Imagine that, waiting for a day in the winter to be cold enough to test a cold start. I hate La Nina years.

So, this morning the thermometer read 20 degrees (-6C) and so after the dog had finished his business, I fired up the beast.






This was a cold start. She'd not been run since the day I installed the starter over a week ago. I'm excited as I won't have trouble now cleaning up any snow. Of course, it actually has to be cold enough to snow. But that's entirely a different problem. One problem at a time - right?


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