# Keeps Dieing.



## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Past post "Ford 4000 diesel died?" Thought we had it fixed but when I went out to work it started to start but it died immediately.

To sum it up:
Bought tractor, Started it every day than found fuel leak in diesel Fuel line (Pic #1).
Repaired and found other leaks,
Cold start heater inlet tube (pic#2), 
Tube to leak off line (Pic #3), 
Tube from Cold start inlet to Reservoir (Pic #4).
Replaced fuel filter.
Bleed system and finally got it started.
Next day, hard to start,Would crank but no start, had to jump, Started. Ran for around 3 Hours. Shut it off, Started 2 hours later, no problem, ran for 15 minutes and died. Cracked injectors and air was in lines. Found o ring in line from fuel filter to fuel pump bad(Pic #5).
Also replaced Pump bleeder screw.
Bleed system got to start. Next day same thing, no start, cracked injectors and got air.

Any suggestions?

I checked to make sure lines are tight. I really don't want to bleed the lines every day that I need to use it. That's hard on the battery and starter.:dazed:


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

You may have an obstruction in your fuel line. The injection pump will pull a vacuum on the system if the fuel supply is inadequate (obstructed). It can suck air into the system through connections. But this shouldn't happen if the fuel system is supplying plenty of fuel. Let's go back to the beginning, starting at the fuel tank:

1) Have you checked that the fuel cap vent is open?
2) Have you checked the fuel screen attached to the shut off valve (sits up inside the tank?)
3) If you have a sediment bowl, have you checked the screen in the top of the bowl?
4) Do you have a fuel pump? There is a screen at the inlet to the fuel pump. Also the fuel pump may not be working.
5) Do you have an unobstructed flow (rush flow) from the fuel line at the inlet to the filter? Let it flow into a clean container to prove that it is open at this point. I once had what looked like a wadded up spiders web in the line.
4) Have you bled the fuel filter with the bleeder screw at the top of the filter?
_____________________________________________________

Let's stop here...and discuss.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

1) Have you checked that the fuel cap vent is open?
* Yes and I can see gas flowing back into the tank from the cold start reservoir. *
2) Have you checked the fuel screen attached to the shut off valve (sits up inside the tank?)
*Yes Clear*
3) If you have a sediment bowl, have you checked the screen in the top of the bowl?
4) Do you have a fuel pump? There is a screen at the inlet to the fuel pump. Also the fuel pump may not be working.
* If the Fuel pump was not working I would not get jets of fuel when I crack the injectors, correct?*

5) Do you have an unobstructed flow (rush flow) from the fuel line at the inlet to the filter? Let it flow into a clean container to prove that it is open at this point. I once had what looked like a wadded up spiders web in the line.
* The flow from the tank to the filter is gravity and is good.*
4) Have you bled the fuel filter with the bleeder screw at the top of the filter? *Yes*

It seems to be getting air into the system when it sits for a while.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

oldmanfarmer -- when you have to bleed the system when you can't start the tractor, do you bleed the fuel filter bleeder first ??, I am curious if this has air here.

do you then bleed the injection pump before you bleed the injector lines, do you get air there at the pump bleeder ??.

we need to section the system so as to pin the problem area.

your #1 leak photo, where does this line finish ?, --- back to the tank or fuel filter !!, if this goes back to the tank, is the line connection up high on the tank ??.

this problem is becoming a curly one, but hopefully we will solve it.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

To bleed fuel lines:
#1 fuel filter no air
#2 injector pump bleeder screw. No air.
#3 injectors. all 3 have air.

This last time i have not checked. I have to use the tractor in am so i will make sure I keep a close eye on all points and the procedure. I wish I could tape it.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

it would have been interesting to know how this tractor run when the diesel conversion was done, what is strange is that there is no mechanical lift pump in the fuel supply system, most tractors that I have worked on have a lift pump to supply fuel to the injection pump under pressure.

I have a Kubota B2400 and this has a small mechanical lift pump after the filter and supplies fuel to the injection pump.

Do you shut the fuel off at the tank when you finish with the tractor ?, if you do could we try an experiment by leaving the fuel tap open for a number of hours, overnight would be better, and see if the starting is any better, it was a no no to shut off fuel when stopped for the day at my place of work.

do you keep a full tank of fuel, this will supply more pressure on fuel supply through the system.

I am asking questions trying to eliminate any problem areas and this is no reflection on you oldmantractor, I have a good idea how you feel.

I don't want to say this, but you may have to rekit the injection pump with new seals or pressurize the fuel supply.

what do you think 6bales ??, seeing that the problem seems to stem from the pump.


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## FredM (Nov 18, 2015)

oldmanfarmer, could you have a look at the inside of the top cover on the pump (between the pump and engine block) and see if there a vent type screw there, it has been 40 plus years since I have worked on the CAV pump and I am pushing you know what up hill trying to remember the bleeding of this pump, if there is, crack this open and see if fuel runs out, if it does, there will be air there for sure if this is a bleeder.


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

oldmanfarmer,

In reading your summary, it appears to me that your problems started when you replaced hose #1 in your photos. I suspect that you got some dirt into the system in doing this repair. 

See item #8 in attached parts diagram. 

You will have to clean the end of the pump and surrounding areas thoroughly. One spec of dirt into the system can cause big problems. 

Put a cloth down under your work area. Take care not to lose any parts. Remove end cap #1, and take it to a bench to methodically disassemble till you get to the filter. Clean or replace this filter. 

Good luck.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Howdy sixbales,

I was up until 2:45 researching this thing and i saw that too. I was told a few days ago by my local parts/service house that the CAV did not have a filter just for the CAV. This morning i showed up there with the part number and it was O that filter. They want $32.50 for the filter alone.

I have always been kind of anal about cleaning while working but like you said it takes one spec. 

I was told that there is some kind of fiber type fan/pump piece that interconnected and is under the pump cover plate #54 in the parts diagram you attached, that might not be working quite well as it once did?

The reason the tube was leaking (Leak #1) in the first place is that they had tubing that was NOT safe for fuel, and was falling apart one chunk at a time. 

Well I'm gonna go work on it and I will start at the tank and work my self slowly work to the injectors looking for air bleeding the line.

Let you know what i find.

Hey Sixbales i cant but can you find a vent type screw for bleeding (CAV), as per fredM 4:56am post


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## BigT (Sep 15, 2014)

Messicks charges $14 for that filter. Oh well, when you go to your local New Holland dealership, just bend over and touch your toes before you ask "how much".

To my knowledge, the only bleeder screw on a CAV is on the side of the pump. Maybe a Simms pump has a vent on top?

Good luck on this CAV filter project. I'm hoping this will solve your problem. Had good success in a case of one that I recall. Remember, clean the area very carefully. 

If this doesn't solve your problem, I believe it's time to check out the injection pump. If so, I'll contact my injection pump buddy.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

I just ran across this thread and my have some suggestions.
In pic #5 there is supposed to be a bleed screw next to the nameplate, where theres a solid screw.. P# 7240-20A it costs about 22.00 list price..
If you get this screw, the bleeding process may be a lot easier.. 
You do know that ALL the steel lines are sealed w/ a rubber grommet or "olive" as they are called.. between the nut and the fitting.. unless they are ALL new, I'd start there.. with the rubber olives..


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

in pic #5 there is a bleeder screw that has been replaced, and it was circled. If that is not the one you are talking about please let me know. it was $24.51 but that was not the part number in messicks online catalog #31


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

30 + 31 = the P# I gave you.. its a CAV #.. its a double bleed screw. 7/16 body that screws into the housing w/ a copper gasket and a 5/16 bleed screw in the center.. 
In your pic.. it has a solid screw/bolt..
Another thing you could do is.. remove the fuel tank cap and pressurize the fuel tank w/ air slightly.. any leaks will surely show up then..
Be careful not to over pressurize it and blow the filter off..
If your certain you have all the externals sealed>> there are a few places the internals can leak down.. 
Did you find/ clean out the filter in Bales #8 post??


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## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

Hop I'm not causing confusion but this is what my bleeder on my CAV looks like with out taking it out. It looks like a bolt but it is a bleeder. Hole in the middle of it and a hole at top side


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

YES, that's it.. that's the correct screw


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Here's another helpful hint I run into ALL THE TIME.
When you replaced the filter.. Did you put the BIG oring IN THE GROOVE ON TOP OF THE FILTER?? Like you would an oil filter..
IF SO.. STRANGE PROBLEMS will occur.. The big oring goes UP IN the filter head.. and seals the lip ..NOT IN THE GROOVE ON THE FILTER.. Hope this helps.


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

I decided I was going to start from scratch. 
I tried to remove the fuel tank but the steering wheel bolt was so rusted on that the nut broke in half horizontally. 
I will have to cut the top part of the vertical rod of to the top of the nut and weld(recreate) part of the nut so I can get a vise gripe on to so I can back it off. If that dose not work or if I can afford it I would have to rip the steering column apart and replace the downward rod and the wheel. 

So I decided to drain the tank( found all kinds of goody's), Replaced the shutoff and filter in the tank shut off, replaced o rings, replaced 2 more o rings, checked and replaced the fuel filter and rings, replaced CAV fuel filter and will bleed it.

I think because of the crap in the line it was stopping the fuel and creating area/pocket for air when the junk built up it would stop fuel but sucked the air past the blockage thru a questionable connection and to the cylinder and cause my problems. 

What do you think? 
Let me know and I will let you all know if it starts and keeps running. 

It kind of feels like a community project with all of you trying to help me. 

Thank you.


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## BigT (Sep 15, 2014)

I would leave the steering wheel nut alone for the moment......You are looking at another major project here. If the steering works, don't mess with it. BTW, is it manual steering or power steering? 

With all the work you have done, it should start and run.


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## dozer966 (Dec 30, 2014)

I agree with BigT. The crap in the tank was probably the hole cause. You should be good to go.

Good luck


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

Wanted to let you all know it ALIVE AGAIN. after we emptied the tank, vacuumed the gel, old filter(S) yes filters, bugs, and the other crap out we got a rag down there tied on to a coat hanger and scrubbed it with diesel then rinsed it a few times. We hooked it all back together, bleed the filter, and began to bleed the injector pump when it started up and puured better then ever.

It ran for 5 minutes then the charging lite came on. I'm still using it till I can afford a new generator and the time to make sure it is the generator. I got a shed to build and a road to put in that i am three months behind on. I still have other things going on with the tractor I need to fix but not now. Thats for another time.

Thank you all for your Help. You all are good neighbors. :tractorsm


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

Congratulations! Did you change the CAV filter at the inlet of the injection pump? If so, was it plugged?


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

Thanks for the update.. Glad you gotter fixed w/o big $$..


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## oldmanfarmer (Mar 24, 2016)

sixbales: not this time. when i realized there was a filter there the shop said it would take 4days to get it and I was allready to put it back together. I will keep an eye on it and when i winterize or prep for summer I will change it then.


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

I was just curious about the CAV filter...... If it's running good, don't mess with it! Brings to mind the old adage: *If it ain't broke, don't fix it! *.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

4 days for a PLASTIC filter?? You BETTER find another shop.. Are you dealing w/ a fuel shop ?
They should have filters just laying around.. I know I have about 20..
You don't need to replace it anyway.. remove, blow it off and reinstall..
Glad you gotter fixed anyway.. TPG


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

Hey pumpguysc,

Do you typically find these little CAV filters badly plugged? I recall only one time that this filter was plugged to the point that the tractor wouldn't run.


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## thepumpguysc (Jan 25, 2015)

50/50.. That's the FIRST THING I check when on a service call for the problem described.
Well, actually 2nd,.. 1st thing would be, fuel supply, TO the pump..
It normally ends up being either.. supply TO the pump.. clogged filter or screen from the fuel tank.... 
An incorrectly installed fuel filter, where the customer put the oring seal ON the filter instead of IN THE FILTER HEAD.. 
or a clogged inlet filter in the pump..
Hope this helps.. Happy tractoring.. TPG


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