# Help!!! I broke my tractor in half!!!



## rangerdave

I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor with a front end loader. It's 2 years old...

I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors) to put jacks under the frame to perform maintenance.... I heard a groan and then the whole thing just pop, pop, popped in half in a sickening sag and then a pool of hydraulic oil.... I wasn't even on the tractor when it happened, just standing to the side working the levers.

I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and am not getting much of a response from the company... The dealer thinks the repair would run about 18,000!!! Oh yeah, the warranty expired a couple of months before this happened too... figures...

Any advice, answers, comments appreciated.


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## Morgan

That just plain sucks!!!!!!!


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## rangerdave

I believe that the casting is defective. When I looked at how thin the housing walls were, I was shocked. Barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots. 

They also skimped on the metal around the threaded bolts that hold it together. That's where the casting initially failed as well. When the shoulder casting around the bottom bolts went, the rest just went for the ride.

I'm sure that if the integrity of the metal wasn't compromised by any internal defects and the shoulder metal was a little more substantial, the failure would never have happened.

I had to bring it back to the dealer for the 100 hour servicing and we discovered that the cast metal bumper guard weight had cracked in half... I had never hit it. This is a 1" thick chunk of metal that protects the engine... We sent it back and the one that the dealer got was ALSO broken... no damage to the box it came in either. Third time was a charm...


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## Upper5Percent

Just out of curiosity...is this your dealer?
Gary's Garage 
664 Bakerstown Road
Poland ME 04274


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## rangerdave

YUP


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## Upper5Percent

> _Originally posted by rangerdave _
> *YUP *


Well, according to AC...he isn't any more...
http://www.acamerica.com/dealer/maine.html

Which may explain why you seem to be getting no respect from corporate...

Check the PM I sent you...

You can get a TRF 8400 with a bucket for $14995

http://www.equipmentlocator.com/asp/eDetails/CARRARO/eqID/478739/eID/1/loc/na-en/close/yes/#


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## Live Oak

Before you do anything, I would suggest contacting the AC rep. Bruce Clark who is listed as the rep for your area:

[email protected]

Should that not pan out, I would suggest trying to contact AC America Inc. 

Antonio Carraro America, Inc.
Corporate & Sales Office
505 Watt Drive Suite 1
Fairfield, California, USA, 94534

Phone: 707-222-3107

Fax: 707-222-4323

Email: [email protected]


http://www.acamerica.com/

I caution you to be prepared for a long drawn out hassle but you never know, this may be a known defect and they may step up and do the right thing. At least give them a chance to make it right and be sure to be as diplomatic as possible and work with them. I can certainly understand how frustrating this must be. 

Good luck with this and be sure to post what if any progress you make with it.


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## Live Oak

You may want to check with one of the Canada or New York dealers. You never know, they may be willing to work with you. 

http://www.acamerica.com/dealer/dealerships.html


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## rangerdave

Thanks for the advice so far. I've e-mailed the Corporate Offices in both CA and Italy... 

I actually purchased the tractor from a guy in CA whom seemed pretty helpful at the time. I figured I wouldn't bug him until I find out a little more...

I also sent a message to that other guy you mentioned PaulC


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## Upper5Percent

Well...GOOD LUCK...we'll be awaiting further updates...

One thing you have going for you, is the fact that AC seems to be trying to increase its presence in the US...how they deal with your claim could have a major influence on their expansion effort...


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## rangerdave

That's true. I had convinced a few people in my area that this tractor was the way to go in Compact Utility Tractors because of the high engine power for PTO operated implements.


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## howierd3866

this my chance my thinking have been looking at a new one with cab..keep us up dated and good luck


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## rangerdave

I must say that I have owned 3 other Pasquali tractors that are also Italian made. I would have bought a new one, but no one continued to import them into the US.

I then looked at Goldoni - Not big enough to do the work I needed to do.

Ferrari only had one dealer in the US... Antonio Carraro seemed the best bet.

When my wife and I spent a month in New Zealand, I stopped at a few tractor dealerships that had several of the different types of manufacturers side by side, I was content that I seemed to have made a good decision. It looked better made than the others.... but you paid considerably more for the quality...


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## Upper5Percent

> _Originally posted by rangerdave _
> *I must say that I have owned 3 other Pasquali tractors that are also Italian made. I would have bought a new one, but no one continued to import them into the US.
> 
> I then looked at Goldoni - Not big enough to do the work I needed to do.
> 
> Ferrari only had one dealer in the US... Antonio Carraro seemed the best bet.
> 
> When my wife and I spent a month in New Zealand, I stopped at a few tractor dealerships that had several of the different types of manufacturers side by side, I was content that I seemed to have made a good decision. It looked better made than the others.... but you paid considerably more for the quality... *


You are aware that JD uses Goldoni to manufacture this product line...all the way up to 96hp
http://www.deere.com/en_US/ProductCatalog/FR/series/tractors/f_series/f_series.html


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## rangerdave

I got a reply from the "tractor rep"..

The problem you're going to have here is that not only is the tractor is out of warranty, and I havent read the old warranty contracts,,, But,,, by installing a front end loader on a tractor not designed for one, this could possibly have already caused an early termination of the warranty. I don't know, and will have to find out so no cause for additional panick,, the damage is already done. The other issue is that the loader manufacturer is most likely not going to be of any help at all $$ . If you were picking up the front of the tractor you void your warranty with many manufacturers instantly even if it's new. If you read the fine print in the loader books, it says "loose materials bucket" Lifting a tractor up indicates excessive force, indicating you are not using it for "loose" materials and beyond the manufacturers recommended duty rating and function..

Digging or jacking your tractor up regardless of reason why, does cause excessive force against the very core of any tractor as well as ebing the common cause of frequently breaking king pins, blowing out front seals and prodmonately crushing bearings on a tractors front end when they hit the ground again,, especially if anything became slightly mis-aligned while it was stretched out in the air, let alone the crushing forces exserted while digging with a loader. That's a HUGE amount of force leveraged on a tractor.

Have any of you heard of this before? It is news to me.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1481658#post1481658


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## rangerdave

No Way!! That was new to me about JD. The reason wasn't HP necessarily, but stand over height. Small wheels = small clearance = get stuck.


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## chrpmaster

Rangerdave

I agree with Morgan. That sucks!

I am surprised at the response you got from tractor rep quoting the manufacturer that the FEL may void the warrenty. I thought most tractors could be used with a FEL. Most guys I know who have loaders on their tractors lift up the front end to do maintainance just like you did. 

Did the dealer install the loader? If so he is probably the one that will have to eat the repair. 

Keep us updated on your progress on this. 

Andy


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## Live Oak

> _Originally posted by rangerdave _
> *I got a reply from the "tractor rep"..
> 
> The problem you're going to have here is that not only is the tractor is out of warranty, and I havent read the old warranty contracts,,, But,,, by installing a front end loader on a tractor not designed for one, this could possibly have already caused an early termination of the warranty. I don't know, and will have to find out so no cause for additional panick,, the damage is already done. The other issue is that the loader manufacturer is most likely not going to be of any help at all $$ . If you were picking up the front of the tractor you void your warranty with many manufacturers instantly even if it's new. If you read the fine print in the loader books, it says "loose materials bucket" Lifting a tractor up indicates excessive force, indicating you are not using it for "loose" materials and beyond the manufacturers recommended duty rating and function..
> 
> Digging or jacking your tractor up regardless of reason why, does cause excessive force against the very core of any tractor as well as ebing the common cause of frequently breaking king pins, blowing out front seals and prodmonately crushing bearings on a tractors front end when they hit the ground again,, especially if anything became slightly mis-aligned while it was stretched out in the air, let alone the crushing forces exserted while digging with a loader. That's a HUGE amount of force leveraged on a tractor.
> 
> Have any of you heard of this before? It is news to me.
> 
> http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1481658#post1481658 *


Please excuse my barn yard language but that sounds like a "loose materials bucket" load of bull**** to me. If that is the case, I think I would be getting this tractor repaired to sell or trade in on a tractor that is designed for work. That is just PURE unadulterate BS! That is one reason why I dropped that tractor board years ago among some other reason like idiot nazi censors who call themselves moderators. 

Talk to the factory reps. and see what if any good will assistance or shared cost repair they might be willing to offer. Then get rid of that thing and find a farm tractor designed for WORK.


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## Upper5Percent

Tractor Rep is supposedly an AC salestype in the Pacific Northwest...I think I'd have to reconsider any purchase of an AC based on that response...


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## rangerdave

When I bought the tractor, it was still being put together in Italy. I was told that once it was finished they would bring it down the road to the Sigma loader company and factory install it. It was shipped to my door strait from the factory. No middle man involved. 

All of my other tractors built by Pasquali had front end loaders and never even had a hint of a problem. I never treated my AC any different...


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## rangerdave

Here's what Bruce Clark had to say to me after I tried to ask for some Info...

Dave please contact our parts and service dept in regards to this matter.

See my observations, concerns and comments below;



Ticket BC



From: Dave Smith [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Help my tractor broke in half!!!



I have an Antonio Carraro TRX 8400 68 HP tractor with a front end loader. It's 2 years old... I bought it new from a fellow in CA named Eugene Canales whom trucked it out to me.

I was lifting up the front end of the tractor with the front end loader (like I have done with all of my tractors)[Bruce Clark] This method voids the warranty on all tractors that I know of and is usually prohibited in a loaders operation manual to put jacks under the frame to perform maintenance....[Bruce Clark] Floor jacks are recommended when performing such a task I heard a groan and then the whole thing just pop, pop, popped in half in a sickening sag and then a pool of hydraulic oil.... I wasn't even on the tractor when it happened, just standing to the side working the levers.[Bruce Clark] Even though this is not recommended, this should not cause such damage. There must have been another factor involved

I am convinced that this is a manufacturing defect and am not getting much of a response from the company...I’m sorry to hear that you have that opinion. The odds of this being a defect is very remote. The dealer thinks the repair would run about 18,000!!! Oh yeah, the warranty expired a couple of months before this happened too... figures...[Bruce Clark] this would have nothing to do with the cause of the failure

I believe that the casting is defective. [Bruce Clark] Then you should send this part to our office. They then could examine the part. If in their expertise and examination they find it a defect, I’m sure they would help you even if your warranty has expired. On the other hand, be aware that this kind of failure would be very remote. When I looked at how thin the housing walls were, I was shocked. Barely thicker than 1/4 inch in spots. [Bruce Clark] The design is very sufficient

They also skimped on the metal around the threaded bolts that hold it together. [Bruce Clark] Please do not insinuate that there is a design fault or that the company is skimping on metal. Such accusations are very damaging if publicized and would be defended in a court of law. Antonio Carraro Tractors are of the finest quality and their reputation for producing a market leading product with a great reputation is very important to the company. That's where the casting initially failed as well. When the shoulder casting around the bottom bolts went, the rest just went for the ride.[Bruce Clark] I would suggest that you look for wear in that area that would be uncommon. Loose bolts can cause this in tire rims. I would look to for loose or missing bolts to contribute to this failure and not a design flaw.

I'm sure that if the integrity of the metal wasn't compromised by any internal defects and the shoulder metal was a little more substantial, the failure would never have happened.[Bruce Clark] A full investigation then maybe required

I had to bring it back to the dealer for the initial 100 hour servicing and we discovered that the cast metal bumper guard weight had cracked in half...[Bruce Clark] I am a little confused, what dealer was this and where? I had never hit it. This is a 1" thick chunk of metal that protects the engine... We sent it back and the one that the dealer got was ALSO broken... no damage to the box it came in either. Third time was a charm...[Bruce Clark] hmmm

I would like to think that the company received a bad batch of cast iron from one of it's suppliers.... My tractor should not have broken in half under it's own weight.[Bruce Clark] It did not. The only other possibility is that some one vandalized it. [Bruce Clark] Please explain The dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing. [Bruce Clark] Dave, this issue is finished. If after 2 years those bolts have become loose and or lost, then of course this explains the failure you experienced. If you allowed operation of this tractor with or without a front loader on it, with loose or missing bolts on the bell housing, you were risking a failure due to neglect and lack of maintenance that could have resulted in causing major harm to the operator. He thinks that they were present at the time of the break though.[Bruce Clark] You stated that “The dealer noted that almost all of the major bolts holding the housings together were not tight and 3 were missing”. Please do not contact our department on this issue. Please do not make statements about flaws in the tractor.

Do you think it is possible that since they are putting bigger and bigger engines on the same frame that was initially designed for (40 - 50 HP tractor) that once you get into a 68 - 84 HP tractor, the chassis is under designed?[Bruce Clark] No. I think that all owners must examine their own tractor for loose bolts.

Any advice, answers, comments appreciated. I got your info fro this forum...[Bruce Clark] I went to the forum. I think it would be in all our interest, if you explained that the loose bolts caused this failure after 2 years and not a design or material defect.

I will look for this update on the forum.


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## Live Oak

Dave,

Unless I missed something, I think you are in the "cut your losses mode". My suggestion is to either trade this tractor in as is IF you can find a dealer to take it that way. (highly doubtful) or order the repair parts you need to fix this tractor and sell it ASAP. Check around for a local tractor mechanic to price out repairing this tractor if you don't have the tools and shop to do it. Although a real long shot, if you have a farm insurance policy, you may want to check it to find out if it covers losses such as this. I doubt it will.


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## rangerdave

Hmmmm... I didn't expect such a response from him. I figured he would have asked more questions and open up a dialogue instead of dismissing me and requesting me NOT to contact the office at all....

Then to go and accuse me for the bolting issue was just over the top... No one that works for a living can inspect every single bolt (even the inaccessible ones like these) every single time they start up the machine. Especially on bolts that shouldn't loosen.

I don't know how much more I can spell it out to them that if they could determine that the damage was caused by vandalism, my insurance covers it. Yet they both attacked me for using the FEL and the bolts...


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## Live Oak

You can try writing to corporate management higher up the chain but don't hold your breath for much change in response.


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## Upper5Percent

Well, I've crossed Antonio Carrarro off our future equipment lists...

It seems you have already been given the good advice by TF

A friend had an incident with a JD and loose bolts and they at least split costs with him...I guess AC is so popular they are above that sort of thing...

Just a thought...You know you could take the metal to an independent testing lab and have then test for defects...it would be more money out of pocket...but it would lay the groundwork for an interesting lawsuit...


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## Morgan

You could also pay for a Engineer to look at it and determine whether or not the metal was suffiecent. I was a machinist for 15 yrs and the last 5 yrs of that I was the Head Quality Control Manager and I know for a fact that metal can be defective. I saw it more than once.


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## rangerdave

Thanks for the comments guys.

I have been thinking about getting a second opinion as well.

The thing is that I love this type of tractor and if I thought that I was responsible for its demise, we have an entire machine shop at our disposal to fabricate whatever we want to fix it....

I'm just shocked at the response that I have been getting... Considering that I toyed with the idea of being a dealer for them and was planning on upgrading the tractor to the 84 HP TRH model...

I did get one supportive e-mail from a dealer though... that thought if they could do something they would, but corporate tied their hands for now. They were not in a position to make any decisions...


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## rangerdave

Thank you for all of the supporting e-mails and concern.

I would like to show you why I got so excited about buying this tractor.... I spent 2 years looking for a new tractor and I was in a position to buy new. When the dealer I had been working with sent me the Antonio Carraro Tractor People magazine, I saw the tractor I wanted... The TRX set up with the forestry package!!!

I also took the dealers advise and bought the Sigma loader that was designed for it.

Also, I found this picture in their magazine that shows a tractor completely lifted off of the ground with BOTH the FEL & the backhoe... I never thought that it was an issue until now...


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## rangerdave

Second Page


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## rangerdave

Third


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## rangerdave

fourth


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## St.George

javascript:smilie(':British:')I have seen the A. Carraro tractors in many countries whilst on holiday. They seem to be great at mowing in England and Holland. Yes in Italy the steep hills with vineyard work. I got so excited to have an Ergit series TRX or TRG for our steepish land in the U.K. and started researching the brand. I got hold of the A.C. News Tractor People magazine they publish. Very impressive marketing. I Skyped and emailed around the world to where I have friends, or farming colleques and family; to ask if they had seen or heard of these machines. It is said that the older models like Trigone are still working hard. Most suppliers sell Sigma or Bonnatti loaders with the A.C. machines. In one of the magazines the Australian distributors put a Burder FEL on the rear end. Some tractor enthusiasts have guided me to various tractor sites like this one and http://www.nettractortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1380&page=2 and http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1481658#post1481658
What the hell. I have been reading for hours..... I am depressed for all you in trouble. I have been blessed by your warnings; the A.C. brand better pull their finger out and fix this issue. 
I have no option than to really take the advise given on the blogs of : "get a tractor that can work". 
I further researched for a reverse seat machine. McCormick Tele Trac is a larger machine that is used in U.K. , Sweden etc. Merlo was the first telehandler with a tractor end, but cannot reverse the seat. See Y-tube for Merlo 60% climb!!! The Danish farmers mag. has a wmv film on the McCormick Tele Trac. Wow. Serious capacity.


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## Jetblack1525

Sound like your getin screwed here. I would look into a John Deere. Great tractor, never had a problem with their dealers or tractors.


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## MFreund

Sorry about the bad experiencs, but THANK YOU for letting everyone know what brand NOT to buy!!


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## St.George

Well things chewed on usually end up down the pan.. The other tractor site had this.
http://www.nettractortalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1380&page=2
Orchardpete: BUD! reading the way you write sounds like you might by a Italian working for the A.C.spa. "I own myself a couple". Come on bud show photos of your machines!!
It well may be that orchards are going that way... Who would not want a machine that can do so much. BUT all brands show on Y-tube what their machines can do, A.C. does not.
Yes it turns out that;
1. ALL A. Carraro models (Mowers to heavier duty TRX) have the SAME castings for the transmission casings??!! These have already been thickened since issues started.. A third update is now rolling into Europe!!! So there is an issue with snapping castings.
2. Your understanding of FEL on the rear lacks understanding of oscillating machines (do you have one or one with a FEL?) You stated 
"Also the rear lifting capacity has nothing to do with a lifting capacity of a front loader. That should be too obvious for anybody who's got at least some technical knowledge."
Well the lifting capacity might be the same. But, mounted on the rear all the FEL load and stresses remain in that half of the machine... (rigid machines distribute the load over the whole frame). The 100% stresses on half of the machine could be the down fall of this design. Where does the twist stress go with a full FEL load on uneven ground? To the castings.
By the way A.C. spa are trying to blame loaders and or operators. Rangerdave has a Sigma loader which is specified by A.C. spa and sold by the distributors. Now its Bonatti ( see the advert it lifts the machine off the ground with FEL and backhoe jacks!!). See A.C spa. magazines that others refer to and most countries have a FEL producer making FEL for A.C.spa like Burder in Australia which makes them for Kubota etc. 
It all probably comes down to A.C. machines should not have FEL for any other task than moving mulch or sand. A.C.spa say " driving into the stockpile incorrectly will cause shock load!!" Buddy a TRX should be supplied with Bisalloy steel casings for slight cost increase and no problems would occur. There has been false advertising with the top of their range; TRX machines.
A load of B.S. 
They are trying the ' divide and rule' between the operators with severe problems. The operators are loosing out! But a brand looses more by treating clients with contempt.
Happy 'picking' orchardpete.


UNFORTUNATELY this thread has the wrong tractor picture. The pictured brand would NOT break really working the FEL hard never mind complying with A.C. spa " driving into the stockpile incorrectly will cause shock load!!"


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## Fully

Hi Dave,
I have a Carraro TRX 9400 and have a few niggling issues, as a last resort, I got on the internet to see if there was any information or a group of owners discussion board. (I have posted my questions under a new thread). FYI I also found a antonio carraro group on facebook.

In relation to your problem, when I purchased the trx I was looking at putting on a front end loader for lifting wool bales onto a semi trailer. They weight about 200kgs and have to be stacked 3 high. I spoke to Carraro and they quoted me on a bonatti cp3 loader. What is of interest is the dimension marked c on the brochure, it shows the loader can dig in 130mm, hence IMHO if you were loading something too heavy, surely that would lift the front wheels off the ground...and hence be normal operation...otherwise they would not design the loaders to go beneath the level of the front wheels !!

I am horrified that you too are getting the run around by Carraro, shortly after using my tractor, about a week, it developed an oil leak and I was quoted an obscene price to have it looked at coupled with the ridiculous price for the loader, and phohibitive freight cost to get it to a dealership..1000ks round trip. The original delaer I purchased it from turned out to be an a'hole also when I mentioned I was having some problems. Hence I did not proceed with buying the loader or getting the oil leak fixed and have left the tractor in the shed for the last 12 months. ( I have recently recieved the Technical service manual and am going to have a go at fixing it myself with the assistance of a tractor /dozer mechanic)...assumig I can get spare parts but thats looks like its going to be another ongoing saga. 

I will be extremely interested to see how you get on with these guys, as based on my experience I have some reservations as to these machines "suitability" for real farming applications and more importantly Carraro's ability to provide after sales support to an international market. (I live in Australia).

PS if you decide to trash yours for spare parts...I need some seals, an AC unit and would love to know where the electrical connectors are physically located on the machine, as the fuel and temp gague have just carked it on mine 

Regards

Michael.


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## St.George

*Fully spares*

Michael surely http://www.acoceania.com.au/ is getting you sorted with spares or the nearest dealership? If not the nearest find a dealership that services and repairs the most A.C machines; to post/courier spares to you.


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## Fully

Hi Mate,
thanks for the reply, at present I am in touch with rmbs at Lismore who are bending over backwards to help me out, the challenge we are both facing is what spare parts are required and secondly the parts they reckon may be needed are on backorder. I am off OS for Christmas and will be in the UK and US and hence was going to see if any of the dealers over there had the parts in stock. ( I have previously been able to get spares it Aus but it took 4 months). Failing being able to get Carraro genuine parts, o rings and bearing are pretty standard bits of gear so once the machine is in bits I will source o rings etc locally. I think the clutch problem is due to the oil leak and hence will make a decision on replacing it when its inspected. My understanding is that there are no clutches in Aus anyway.

This whole exercise would be a hell of a lot less frustrating if Carraro put there parst manuals online and provided a 1800 number, and could ship spares country wide within 48 hours, ie like case and caterpiller do.

Regards

Michael.


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## rangerdave

Hi all! Thanks for all of the comments. I have been getting many sides of the issues both good and bad about Antonio Carraro... I feel about as isolated in Maine, USA as the guy in Australia does with his issue.... and as frustrated as a few others that have had their tractor break in half....
The real bummer is that I am now starting to loose work because my tractor is broken and I invested everything that I had in buying a NEW one hoping that it would LAST at least as long as my 3 other Pasquali tractors made in Italy!!! I've lost more money (and still more to loose in repairs!!!) in this tractor than I have in the stock market!!!!


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## rangerdave

PS; Here are some more pictures of the damage.


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## rangerdave

Material thickness


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## rangerdave

Part sheering


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## chrpmaster

All I can say is WOW! There should be no way a tractor could break in half like that unless you drop it off a building. I remember as a kid my Dad was maneuvering an old tractor we had to hook up to a piece of equipment and got too close to the ditch. This tractor had a hand clutch which he wasn't use to and brakes that were not functional. He didn't get it stopped before it when nose first down into this 15 ft deep ditch. Luckily he bailed off the back. Slammed the front end into the other bank at the bottom. No damage! In fact the engine was still running at the bottom of the ditch. I guess they don't make them that way anymore.

Andy


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## rangerdave

Hey everyone, Just an update...

I finally received the denial of claim from my insurance company. It was no surprise either... they totaled my tractor as well. 

The insurance company came to the same conclusions during its own investigation.... They sent not one but two claim adjusters, and the opinion written was taken under the advisement from two different cast iron/machining specialists that have been in the business for about 40 years.... 

No surprises in what they said either since they work with heavy machinery...

I know folks from Antonio Carraro have been following my tractor issue (From Italian Corporate down to former Reps and Dealers).... 

One rep tried to help me and get corporate to do what was right and had a deal to cover it under warranty or something like that, but she was either shut up, or lost any standing in the company to make any deals when she left for a different job... We couldn't connect in the limited time of about a week and withdrew any communication to me or any of the forums she was involved in.... 

Not surprising, the person that would have been involved in resolving the issue at AC America completely denied that any such conversation with the Rep took place about my tractor....

I genuinely believed in the tractor community and service that AC portrayed. I received their Tractor People magazine and read all of the stories from around the world. I couldn't think of a better company to invest $50,000 in a new tractor... 

I just didn't expect to get ignored, strong armed and lied to when it broke in half, just out of warranty and still owing $20,000.... And back to using my 15+ year old Pasquali that I have worked harder under the SAME conditions....

I don't appreciate being made to feel like I am the bad guy in this situation by the very people that I was hoping would be supportive...

While I am awaiting receipt of the Insurance Companies findings, I am also talking with other people (that supposedly don't exist) about their tractor problems....

I am just hoping Antonio Carraro will reconsider its position and contact me (and the others) about resolving this issue...

Especially in light that AC just introduced their 4th? generation of center section housings AND introduced a 4 YEAR ACROSS THE BOARD WARRANTY ON ALL OF THEIR TRACTORS!!!


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## chrpmaster

So let me get this straight. The company is denying any responsibility due to manufacturing defect. Your insurance company is also denying your claim. So you are out all the money you paid for this tractor. Did I get this right?

Andy


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## rangerdave

Not only the money I paid so far, but the money I still owe and the money I have to pay to the dealer for pulling apart the machine and diagnosing the problems.....

The really sad part is that when my father was killed by a bad driver a few years ago, my only inheritance was the $50,000 from his life insurance policy.... he had wanted me to spend it on something important, so instead of buying used I thought I would finally buy a new tractor...


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## caseman-d

I'm going to stir the pot, maybe make it boil over. I don't have any sympathy for people who buy this imported crap because it's cheap. Then you whine when you have problems. Heck most times you can't even get parts. Yes even the major brands are made over sea's, least most times you can get parts and service.

I wished you would send me a picture of the whole tractor so I can put it with all the other xbrands that I have on the parts counter. Cheaper isn't always better. I think there is more to the story than just lifting it up. As Paul Harvey would say, Now he rest of the story. The more I read about your purchase I would say you got what's coming. You are part of the reason so many companies move out of the USA.
caseman-d


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## rangerdave

Ouch!!!! I guess if you call $50,000 cheap you're better off than most moneybags... The current model tractor that replaces mine is going for about $80,000 now. I can buy a John Deere or New Holland for a third of that... 

And my buddy who ripped the rear casing apart on his BIG John Deere farm tractor using a back hoe got it repaired by the dealer for free, out of warranty by two years, because the dealer stood behind the product and agreed that an implement designed for the tractor shouldn't have damaged it when properly used!!!

If I wanted cheap I would have bought John Deere, Kubota, Kioti, New Holland, etc... But I needed a better tractor. I had been running these types of tractors for over decade with no problems!!! I bought new from one of the biggest world wide tractor companies BECAUSE of the parts availability and service to your door. Any one that had owned the same type of tractor would naturally assume that a new one would last just as long and be just as durable...

You're obvious bias against "imported crap because it's cheap" demonstrates how out of touch you are with the global economy and the REAL reason companies move over seas..... It's to escape the massive corporate taxes, labor laws and environmental regulations our country rakes them over the coals over - and to the lesser extent to try and evade the liability for building crap... 

I am not part of the reason they move out of the USA, they do it to them selves!!! Just look at what the crappy US auto industry forced us to drive in the 70's and 80' and Honda and Toyota produced a better car cheaper!!! Because people like me demanded better of them!!! I am still getting warranty recall notices that the dealer fixes for free on my 1993 Toyota Truck!!! It floored me that I would have received that notice this spring about a "dangerous steering design flaw that causes sudden and catastrophic failure due to METAL FATIGUE in the steering linkages..." but hey, they stand by their product and take care of their customers. Can't really say the same about the BIG 3 that need a bail out!!!


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## Simpleprestige

Wow this thread is starting to remind me of YouTube comments


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## gaff756

*Bolens G214*

I have a Bolens 2104 (G214) also known as a Iseki TE3210F. It has been abused over the years, by who you may ask well that would be me. It is truely a workhorse for the size tractor, never thought twice about the purchase. I am trying to find a parts supplier that has a good supply of parts as I am slowly repairing this little workhorse to original condition. can anyone help me?


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## firemen122

> _Originally posted by caseman-d _
> *I'm going to stir the pot, maybe make it boil over. I don't have any sympathy for people who buy this imported crap because it's cheap. Then you whine when you have problems. Heck most times you can't even get parts. Yes even the major brands are made over sea's, least most times you can get parts and service.
> 
> I wished you would send me a picture of the whole tractor so I can put it with all the other xbrands that I have on the parts counter. Cheaper isn't always better. I think there is more to the story than just lifting it up. As Paul Harvey would say, Now he rest of the story. The more I read about your purchase I would say you got what's coming. You are part of the reason so many companies move out of the USA.
> caseman-d *


I have to disagree with you caseman. Just because it not one of the big three does not mean it is total trash. The reason companies are moving out of america is they are being taxed and regulated to death. I will agree with you some brands are just plain sorry, but I cannot label every one like that. I do not think the man is whining the tractor company knows they have a problem and are not stepping up to the plate. Yea his warranty was out by 2 months, but it is a known problem and they should at minimum supply the parts for free. I have owned most all of the big three and some off brands had good luck with some and bad luck with some.


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## HYDROGUARDIAN16

I was on facebook last week, and I have a group for Antonio Carraro tractors on it, nothing special lol. One guy posted that he was lifting some material and his whole tractor snapped in half. Lol that sucks


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## fastfarmer

*AC Not cheap in Aussie!*

I can assure you AC an Ferrari are the more expensive of tractors in Australia.

I would think a quality engineering shop who knows what they are doing... would be able to repair this quite easily, and even re-enforce it for additional strength.

Replacement of the casing would be admission of fault by AC. I know you feel the thickness of casing is not adequate, but it would be designed to a strength point and is also designed to withstand forces in particular directions. Either or both have been exceeded.

I realise this is an emotional issue... your dads money etc, and I think we all agree no tractor should break in half like this... but get the welder out or wreck it are your only real options. 

Even though I am shocked by this occurring, I don't think AC are any obligation to fix it, nor do I think it means there product is any less superior.


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## fastfarmer

I took all your photos and showed my engineering guru. 

His response was easy to fix. He said "Nickel bronze is the go (and about 10 oxy torches!) Once fixed, less car jumping."

Cheers and goodluck!


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## al b

*Re: AC Not cheap in Aussie!*



> _Originally posted by fastfarmer _
> *I can assure you AC an Ferrari are the more expensive of tractors in Australia.
> 
> I would think a quality engineering shop who knows what they are doing... would be able to repair this quite easily, and even re-enforce it for additional strength.
> 
> Replacement of the casing would be admission of fault by AC. I know you feel the thickness of casing is not adequate, but it would be designed to a strength point and is also designed to withstand forces in particular directions. Either or both have been exceeded.
> 
> I realise this is an emotional issue... your dads money etc, and I think we all agree no tractor should break in half like this... but get the welder out or wreck it are your only real options.
> 
> Even though I am shocked by this occurring, I don't think AC are any obligation to fix it, nor do I think it means there product is any less superior. *


I think you are wrong by making excuses for AC and so are the engineers for designing it to break.


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## RAH

Sell it and buy Orange. I never have had a problem with Kubota and have lifted everyone of them up with the FEL.


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## randym99

I think some of you have missed the point of why he bought this model.He wanted MORE tractor .When I look at its design I see "cool, wish I could afford that"Imported/domestic, it should not matter.It all comes down to the PEOPLE.The people that design,build,sell,service,and back the said product.Every builder has had a "fubar" or two over the years.What makes the differance and keeps (the good ones in business) Is the True desire to back what they sell.It does look like a doable fix in the right hands and that may be what you have to do to keep getting some good out of your purcase.It is sad the company did not back you up in your time of need and tryed to confuse it with bs .I agree that JD and the like are good machines.What makes them great machines are the folks that stand behind them and not just in the good times but the not so good times as well.Good luck by the way.I hope it all works out for you.


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## rangerdave

Hey thanks randym99. I have been having a bunch of welding experts try and figure out how to weld this thing together... No one can come to a consensus about what metal it is made out of!!! I'm waiting to hear back from a guy that brought a chunk to his corporate engineering office to see what he can come up with. So far we have determined that the frame is un-weldable/brazable by standard means.


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## Cannuck-elhead

> _Originally posted by randym99 _
> * I agree that JD and the like are good machines.What makes them great machines are the folks that stand behind them and not just in the good times but the not so good times as well. *


Randy, if you look around the 'net generally, and boards like this one, you will quickly see that a) this is NOT a brand-specific issue, and b) that there are far more JD's & NH's with this problem than you would believe.

As an engineer friend of mine puts it, there are just people out there who could break an anvil with a rubber hammer, that doesn't mean the anvil maker is at fault for making a shoddy product.

Likewise, if you make a tractors, and I build a loader that a customer puts on your tractor, and that causes the tractor to snap in half, what did you do wrong that you should be liable for the cost of fixing the tractor? 

I suggest nothing, and it sounds like the tractor manufacturer or importer did too.

BTW, do a little research, all the little JD's (and most NH, Case, etc.) are imports with green paint and some fancy new decals on them.


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## al b

I think what randym99 was saying is. What makes them great machines are the folks that stand behind them and not just in the good times but the not so good times as well.


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## Cannuck-elhead

Al, I understood what he is saying, and what I said was, I can point you at numerous threads on various boards and blogs where people are in exactly the same situation, the tractor broke, and the company said "too bad". No warranty.

New Holland's, John Deere's, you name it.

Google "tractor broke in half" and I'm sure you will find pages and pages of exactly that, tractor broke in half, manufacturer said tough.


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## rangerdave

I have seen other tractors break in half as well. The point being is that everyone that I have known in New England that have owned New Holland, Kubota, John Deere have had excellent service for damage to machines even after warranty!!! Because they designed the equipment to work and work hard. 

When a buddy of mine broke the rear case at the top of the 3pt- hitch on his JD, the dealer told him that no matter what he was doing to the machine, that should never have happened. 

They replaced the part out of warranty and they split the labor 50/50 (I think he had a back-hoe on it at the time). Some companies stand behind what they sell, others sell you a bunch of hype.


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## Hoodoo Valley

Well, I feel for you Dave. I know what it feels like to get the shaft from a manufacturer or insurance company! Being the small guy, can make you feel even smaller. It just sucks. I would sure think that a company such as this, would at least attempt to work with you, to avoid disgruntlement! If anything, give you a break on cost or something. I mean word of mouth is a powerful advertising tool, and in this case, especially after folks like myself read about your situation, you can be assured of a tractor brand we'll be staying away from. To me....Company support is paramount above all else, whether it was made in China or USA or anywhere else for that matter. Dave, I wish you best of luck, in your repair endeavors. Please keep us informed of the prescribed fix won't you? Chris


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## Horsetopia

How about a follow up on this issue....was there any resolve?


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## twentynine

Gosh!

First time I read this thread. 

Paid mucho bucks for the tractor. Left him high and dry.


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## Hoodoo Valley

I could not even imagine what a bummer it must have felt like. Been there done that, long ago with a truck I bought. Sucks!


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## rangerdave

OK Folks, Here was the repair that we did.... Bridge I beam for the bottom skid plate that married both center and rear sections together, Center section welded in place with "special" unobtainium rods, redesigned rear fenders (Sh-t canned the plastic old ones). Half of the bolts on the left side were never re-used because what ever the rear case was made of is literally unweldable/brazable!!! So the frost cap over the bearing journal was sealed in place by about 1/2 an inch of JB Weld...... I've been running it since February with no issues.....


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## rangerdave

Here's few more showing the front and rear fender modifications, and the final bridging of the center section to the rear section. Note how I boxed it in over the top and bottom. So the exo-skeleton I built goes over and under the center and rear section to reinforce the suspect welding of the suspect center section.... I will only think of the "repaired" center section as a glorified spacer and go off of the assumption that the real steel skeleton I built is far stronger than the original design ever could have been..... Had they just used real steel, or even cast steel (like 4 dealers told me it was) it never would have broken under any stress....


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## twentynine

WOW!

Ranger Dave

That is one heck of a chunk of fabrication and steel. Can I ask who did the alloy welding?

If it wasn't cast iron/steel what in heck was it?

Final cost?

And do you have confidence in your tractor and the repair.


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## rangerdave

PS: Thank you all for your thoughts, advise and concern. It is forums like this that help to educate and enlighten!!!

PPS: 5 dealers and the parent company could not come up with a consensus of two things that should have been blatantly off the shelf basic knowledge...

1 - What was the center and rear sections of the machine made of? (I just don't have the $500 bucks to do a metal analysis right now) 

2 - What do you use for brake fluid??? No one seemed to know what the recommended fluid (Selenia MT) was made of.... It ended up being basic VIP ATF fluid!!! You think all of these service folks doing the 100 Hr mandatory maintenance would know what fluid they use for topping off the brakes..... not a one. In fact I had to get someone from Italy to email me comparable fluid compatibility charts.... exotic mineral oil based hydraulic fluids can wreak havoc on the seals if not correctly replaced....

The reason the service folks gave me for not having the info readily available was that they do not plan on continuing the line once the contracts and existing warranty obligations run out - To expensive, not enough interest and warranty hassles with the parent company.


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## rangerdave

Final costs.... I've got about $800 in parts/materials/paint. Nearly all of the metal was part of our stock pile of good stuff that didn't go to scrap... But my labor is cheap (if you call forced unemployment because the tractor is broken "cheap labor") - Started the project mid January and by mid February it was running... On the logging job by Feb 19th for one month strait with no problems.... So yes, I trust my repairs - I just don't trust the metal that it is attached to!!! Once I build a medium sized grapple skidder to replace what this was supposed to do, This tractor will be retired to a glorified wheel barrow and lawn mower.....


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## beppington

What a sorry story. Beneficial to me, though, by knocking AC off my list of brands to consider ... so, thanks for that at least.


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## chrpmaster

Welcome to the Tractor Forum beppington! Keep us updated on your search especially when you finally pick on. Of course we want pics!

Rangerdave I am glad to hear you got the tractor fixed. Nothing like American ingenuity. Thanks also for warning the rest of us of your problems. beppington is a good example of someone who gained from your experience and I'm sure there a lot of others too.


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## rangerdave

THANKS You Guys!!!


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## fastfarmer

Thanks for the follow up, and top job!


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## buffalow2

i would only buy local made as i dont want my money going overseas nor any warrenty claims


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## tractor bob

*Hope Ive done the right thing*

Just purchased a 2001 TRX 8400 for $5000.00 Aus, has 2900 hrs, it hasn't broken in half but has lost the drive somewhere after the cluch.
Has anyone heard of this problem?
I,m new to this forum thing, should I start a new discussion?


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## St.George

*steel plate not cast iron*



St.George said:


> Well things chewed on usually end up down the pan.. The other tractor site had this.
> Help I broke my tractor in half!!! - Page 2 - Net Tractor Talk
> Orchardpete: BUD! reading the way you write sounds like you might by a Italian working for the A.C.spa. "I own myself a couple". Come on bud show photos of your machines!!
> It well may be that orchards are going that way... Who would not want a machine that can do so much. BUT all brands show on Y-tube what their machines can do, A.C. does not.
> Yes it turns out that;
> 1. ALL A. Carraro models (Mowers to heavier duty TRX) have the SAME castings for the transmission casings??!! These have already been thickened since issues started.. A third update is now rolling into Europe!!! So there is an issue with snapping castings.
> 2. Your understanding of FEL on the rear lacks understanding of oscillating machines (do you have one or one with a FEL?) You stated
> "Also the rear lifting capacity has nothing to do with a lifting capacity of a front loader. That should be too obvious for anybody who's got at least some technical knowledge."
> Well the lifting capacity might be the same. But, mounted on the rear all the FEL load and stresses remain in that half of the machine... (rigid machines distribute the load over the whole frame). The 100% stresses on half of the machine could be the down fall of this design. Where does the twist stress go with a full FEL load on uneven ground? To the castings.
> By the way A.C. spa are trying to blame loaders and or operators. Rangerdave has a Sigma loader which is specified by A.C. spa and sold by the distributors. Now its Bonatti ( see the advert it lifts the machine off the ground with FEL and backhoe jacks!!). See A.C spa. magazines that others refer to and most countries have a FEL producer making FEL for A.C.spa like Burder in Australia which makes them for Kubota etc.
> It all probably comes down to A.C. machines should not have FEL for any other task than moving mulch or sand. A.C.spa say " driving into the stockpile incorrectly will cause shock load!!" Buddy a TRX should be supplied with Bisalloy steel casings for slight cost increase and no problems would occur. There has been false advertising with the top of their range; TRX machines.
> A load of B.S.
> They are trying the ' divide and rule' between the operators with severe problems. The operators are loosing out! But a brand looses more by treating clients with contempt.
> Happy 'picking' orchardpete.
> 
> 
> UNFORTUNATELY this thread has the wrong tractor picture. The pictured brand would NOT break really working the FEL hard never mind complying with A.C. spa " driving into the stockpile incorrectly will cause shock load!!"



............. all previous Carraro models had steel plate bent into the transmission casing shapes.. They never broke. But the last most modern factory turning out the Ergit series with cast transmission casings causes no end of problems.......... 

Rangerdave is The One Man "A Team" with his redesign,cut and weld skills.
Full salute and respect to you buddy.


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## LostValley

Sure ain't logo'd with a prancing pony. Remember all the problems Alfa Romeo and Fiat had but prolly not germane. We have a rusting hulk 4x4 made by IMT in the land formerly known as Yugoslavia which was great when it ran BUT it didn't run long. First problem; wiring went sizzle, flash, smoke....no lights and rewire starting/charging. Second problem; right front wheel locked up, no warning....took it apart and found NO grease in assy, only lube was light coating of oil from machining process. Third problem; hydraulic system single file kinda thing, valve must be closed at loader to operate implements, new operators had tuff time remembering this, loader started leaking about 6 months after we got it and it was a rude 'wakeup' to be running along with gannon or disc or bush hog when loader dug into ground. Fourth (and final straw) problem; Russia then Yugoslavia blew up in early 90's which meant you could pee in wind and have as much luck getting parts as you would from factory. (actually that was an ALWAYS issue)

Reason I went through all that is your molte bene (NOT!) unit looks remarkably identical to the piece of crap IMT and price mentioned in one of other replies is same that we paid for new one in early 80's. Not completely sure when it was bought cause I was in Europe working as high tech gypsy. You might find Antonio Carraro either bought out IMT or has OEM agreement with the manufacturing done under less than decent quality assurance/checking.


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## mftractor1017

*MF-471 Tractor Split in Half*

I know this is an old posting but I have a client who was injured badly when the same thing happened to his MF-471 tractor. He was preparing to help a friend shovel snow using a bucket loader attached to the front of the tractor. With the loader about 2 inches off the ground and with nothing in it, the bellhousing broke in half and he was injured.

I would really like to speak with anyone who has heard about this happening or has had this happen with their tractor, specifically with MF tractors and preferably with any of the 400 series. Also, if anyone is or knows an engineer, has worked in the tractor manufacturing industry, worked in the tractor dealership industry, or just has a lot of experience with tractors, I am very interested in talking to you or them.

Please contact me through email at [email protected] or PM me on here and then we can either talk on the phone or stick to email. Thanks to everyone in advance for any information you can provide and I look forward to hearing from you!


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## rangerdave

Well Hey!!! Thanks for all of that!!! I can only say that since the dreaded repair and modifications, the tractor has been running just fineish....

Really, It has held up well, until last week.... I was mowing a 1 acre field of tallish grass and the PTO went! I'm guessing it is the independent PTO spur gear because I thought at first the drive shaft that had to get re-welded back together snapped, but when I put it in syncro PTO, I can roll the tractor in low gear....

So in Googleing PTO repair, my old threads came up!!! LOL... Now it is off to take apart the whole center section in order to open up the top of the box to see what is hiding inside.... Of course the repair couldn't be as easy as swapping out the syncro gear for the broken independent gear... or the independent gear fell off when the snap ring wore out.... Nope. I betcha a bad sealed bearing went and sheared the pto gear shaft made of unobtanium....


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