# B414 Diesel oil is clear



## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

I went out to the tractor shed today to charge the batteries is my two tractors and exercise my small Honda generator as the shed has no commercial power.

While the batteries were charging I pulled the engine dipstick on the B414. The bottom of the stick had about an inch of black oil on it. It also had clear oil about 3/4 of an inch above the full mark. The black oil was covered with clear. I wiped the dipstick clean and checked the oil level. It had clear oil only to about 3/4 of an inch above the full level mark.

I suspected contamination with diesel fuel, but it smelled and felt like oil. I am using Rotella T straight 30 weight. The tractor has not been started since last fall. 

Can the black soot precipitate over 3 to 5 months and leave clear oil?

The plan now it to drain the oil without starting the engine and see if I get really black oil followed by clear. If that is what I find I will rethink the use of straight 30 weight and probably go to a high detergent multi grade oil.

Any thoughts or comments are welcome.


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## sixbales (May 18, 2011)

That's an unusual observation Vanman08. I've never heard of oil separating as you describe. I would certainly change the oil. Try to catch a sample of the clear liquid if possible. It would be interesting to have it analyzed. I guess non-detergent oil might segregate given long enough settling time.


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## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

I wonder if it is hydraulic fluid leaking into the crankcase via the hydraulic pump? Would hydraulic fluid float on top of engine oil? I will check the hydraulic fluid level tomorrow.


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## Cvans (Sep 7, 2008)

Vanman08 said:


> I wonder if it is hydraulic fluid leaking into the crankcase via the hydraulic pump? Would hydraulic fluid float on top of engine oil? I will check the hydraulic fluid level tomorrow.


I was wondering the same thing. Has your oil level dropped?


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## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

It has not dropped. It has gone up. My rear main seal leaks so I check the oil level every time before starting it. I will check the hydraulic fluid level later today as well as drain the crankcase.


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## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

Very unusual siituation. Have never heard of motor oil separating, not even the non detergent. It is more likely a big viscosity difference is the cause of tge separation, 30 wt oil vs 10wt hydraulic. I believe the current recomendations are detergent oil for curculating filtered systems, synthetic or conventional. This keeps the combustion products in suspension to be removed by filtration prior to causing wear on system components.
non detergent oil is recommended for motors that do not have a circulating filtered oilsystem. Combustion products plate out on the designated areas of the motor. that has few wear parts.


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## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

I am pretty sure it is hydraulic fluid. I drained the crankcase yesterday and checked the hydraulic fluid level. The hydraulic fluid level was very low. I was going to remove the hydraulic pump but I could not find my allen wrenches so I bought more. I will remove the pump this afternoon then decide which one to buy. The cheap ones are made in China, mid price in Turkey, highest priced in England. I am strongly leaning toward the English pump.


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## Ed Williams (Jun 13, 2019)

Vanman08 said:


> I am pretty sure it is hydraulic fluid. I drained the crankcase yesterday and checked the hydraulic fluid level. The hydraulic fluid level was very low. I was going to remove the hydraulic pump but I could not find my allen wrenches so I bought more. I will remove the pump this afternoon then decide which one to buy. The cheap ones are made in China, mid price in Turkey, highest priced in England. I am strongly leaning toward the English pump.


Steiners has an excellent video series on YouTube that walks you thru a complete hydraulic pump rebuild from start to finish. No special tools required. Take a look and see if you would be comfortable with this rebuild. Can save 60% over a new pump and use OEM parts.


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## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

I thought about that, but several posts on other forums suggested by the time the pressure is high enough to damage the seal that the pump is worn enough that replacing the seal will not last. I assume that the pump body is worn and not just replaceable parts. I will open it up and take a look. It would probably be faster to get a complete pump.


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## capej (Jun 28, 2021)

Vanman08 said:


> I thought about that, but several posts on other forums suggested by the time the pressure is high enough to damage the seal that the pump is worn enough that replacing the seal will not last. I assume that the pump body is worn and not just replaceable parts. I will open it up and take a look. It would probably be faster to get a complete pump.


I've got exactly the same thing with my B414! It took some head scratching to work it out, and The worshop manual has a line on paragraph 196 that mentions that oil can leak into the engine crankcase. My issue now it what else do I need to replace with the hydraulic pump, ie is the "leaking into the crank" the pump or somewhere in the crank case cover plate where the hydraulic pump attaches... Vanman08 have you made any progress?? If so what else did you replace with the pump?


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## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

The pump is the only thing that I replaced. I bought a cheap Chinese pump that so far is working. 

I opened up the original pump with the intention of rebuilding it, but most parts are no longer available, at least that I could find. The gasket set cost nearly as much as the Chinese pump. The gears are no longer available. Without replacing the gears I decided it would probably not hold up just replacing the seal on the shaft and the gasket between the pump body halves.

Here is a link to the pump that I bought: 704330R95 Hydraulic Pump 704330R95 Fits Case IH, IHC, International Harvester - Free Shipping

It did not come with new mounting bolts or the washer that you bend to lock the gear on the end of the shaft. I also had to run a tap through the threads on the body to clean them up. It shows the bendable washer in the pictures of the pump but mine did not have one. I reused the original one because I did not want to wait to get a new one. The weather was good and I needed to get my garden tilled. 

If you can find a source for parts to rebuild the original pump please post it. I still have my original pump and would probably rebuild it for a spare if I had the parts. I might not change it until the Chinese one fails. Then again I might not wait. On a nice spring or fall day it would not be a big deal to swap them. In the summer with sweat running in your eyes or in the winter with freezing fingers it would not be very much fun.

Let us know what you decide to do.


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## capej (Jun 28, 2021)

Vanman08 said:


> The pump is the only thing that I replaced. I bought a cheap Chinese pump that so far is working.
> 
> I opened up the original pump with the intention of rebuilding it, but most parts are no longer available, at least that I could find. The gasket set cost nearly as much as the Chinese pump. The gears are no longer available. Without replacing the gears I decided it would probably not hold up just replacing the seal on the shaft and the gasket between the pump body halves.
> 
> ...


Thanks Vanman!

I think I'll do the same, I found a Turkish pump which I think I'll put on and then look at getting the original rebuild, doing it myself if I can get the parts. For interest my pump is a Plessey C-25-VR. I had a good chat to a hydraulic expert yesterday and he said likely the Shaft seal is busted, and that if there is any lateral movement in the shaft after removing the pump that it won't be worth rebuilding. Either way I'll take mine off and get it to this guy to see what the options are. Like you I'd like to have the original on if it can be fixed. 

I'll be sure to let you know how I go.


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## capej (Jun 28, 2021)

capej said:


> Thanks Vanman!
> 
> I think I'll do the same, I found a Turkish pump which I think I'll put on and then look at getting the original rebuild, doing it myself if I can get the parts. For interest my pump is a Plessey C-25-VR. I had a good chat to a hydraulic expert yesterday and he said likely the Shaft seal is busted, and that if there is any lateral movement in the shaft after removing the pump that it won't be worth rebuilding. Either way I'll take mine off and get it to this guy to see what the options are. Like you I'd like to have the original on if it can be fixed.
> 
> I'll be sure to let you know how I go.


Vanman I have one final question! What did you need to reinstall the pump? I can't find any gasket kits or anything, though it looks as though one is used on the pump flange/face at install, not sure about the two had lines either. Does it use a gasket or just the O-rings? If no gasket does it require any sealant?? 

Many thanks again and I'll let you know how it goes. I suspect my Hydraulic expert may be able to find aftermarket seals etc to rebuild the old pump in which case I'll get all the details for you.


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## Vanman08 (Aug 1, 2020)

I just reused the gasket on the pump flange. I bought new o rings for the hydraulic lines to the pump. No other gasket or sealant required. I would replace the gears in the pump if you rebuild it. I read many places that if you just replace the shaft seal and the o ring type seal between the pump halves it will not last and will start leaking again.


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