# CUT regen



## ck3510hb (Sep 12, 2016)

Could put this in the Kioti forum but problem/solution may be universal. My Kioti ck 3510 HS Does not regen as per the way I understand the manual. The sequence for manual regen is parking brake locked on, neutral, engine warm, Hi Idle, and hold the regen button till the motor speeds up, wait for regen to finish. The first 100 plus hours it regen. while working just fine. Now it never goes into regen while working and wont do the manual regen. (my first thought is why did I not stick with BEFORE def {2013} tractor. Second was dealer, {shrug}. Ideas?


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

All I know is, if it don't regen at some point the motor will derate. My dealer had a Kubota in the shop where the owner over rode the regen enough times that it not only destroyed the cannister but ate the engine up too from excessive back pressure and soot. Very expensive fix as in new motor. Glad I didn't have to pay that bill.

No post 4 units on this farm.

Think I'd be finding another dealer who has the knowledge to address your issue. I didn't know a tractor of that size took DEF. I was under the impression that smaller units only had SCR cannisters and EGR.


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## willy81 (Jan 30, 2020)

Maybe you don't need to regen if you are running 2600 rpm's or higher
and kept the pipes hot and don't need to regen?????

willy


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

willy81 said:


> Maybe you don't need to regen if you are running 2600 rpm's or higher
> and kept the pipes hot and don't need to regen?????
> 
> willy


That’s what I was wondering. If you have good quality diesel and are running at temp all the time, theoretically you would never have to regen.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Don't work that way. The SCR cannister senses the pressure differential across the substrate and that is what initiates the regen cycle and all diesels produce soot in operation whether they are operating at ,low, medium of high speed and the collects in the catalytic substrate (similar to a catalytic converter in a car) and that differential initiates the regen. All regen is, is the introduction of raw diesel fuel into the substrate (which is operating at a pre determined temperature (by sensor again) and that 'lights off the diesel, causing the soot to get 'cremated' if you will and the cooked soot turns to ash and drops out of the honeycomb. However, the ash remains in the cannister which, is why, after a certain number of regenerations, it has to be physically removed and cleaned in an EPA approved cleaner and the ash disposed of in a 'approved Haz-Mat' landfill.

That is how it works. Downstream (or upstream) DEF injection reduces the oxides of nitrogen. Why some tractors will have an SCR cannister (selective catalytic reduction) and others will have both SCR and DEF is entirely dependent on the amount of emitted pollutants and a pre determined (by the EPA) rate and why at least for now, tractors (and engines) under 24 horsepower don't have any emissions hardware, but I bet in the end they will as the EPA advances beyond the T4 mandate to T5.

Tractor and diesel engine builders in general are moving away from mechanical (pump) injection, to electronic common rail because it allows a much tighter control on fueling parameters and consequently lower emissions. Lower emissions mean less emission controls which equals lower per unit cost.

It's also a much more complex system and much less user friendly.

The difference between your car and a tractor concerning the Cat is, you cat is your car continuously reduces the oxides of nitrogen through catalytic reduction (why you have O2 sensors and why the units get hot and are made of stainless (the by products are corrosive). In a diesel the catalytic reduction is for soot (particulates) and needs an outside source raw diesel to initiate the reduction process. If you also have DEF injection, it's for oxides of nitrogen, not particulates.

When it works, it works fine. When it don't, you have issues. Under Federal EPA guidelines, the manufacturer has to stand behind and repair / replace any emission component that fails for 5 years. After that, bubba, it's on your dime and sure you can delete it but keep in mind that if you do, that unit is no longer marketable (Federal Law) so don't plan on trading it because no dealer will take it. You can sell it outright to a private buyer but it will be worth less because it's altered.

I see T4 interem big trucks are popping up for sale on Tractor House (I'm a registered seller and buyer on there so I get their catalogs weekly) and every one of them are listed as 'Altered'. They have to be because they don't meet emissions criteria and they sell at a reduced price.

I'll continue to use (and maintain) pre T4 tractors. No emissions hardware / software to fail and much simpler as well, plus they command a premium price today.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

I does work that way. No soot = no regen.
It is very possible to be burning hot enough to not produce soot.
I went 200,000 kms in one of my diesels without a regen. Then i ran several tanks with poor quality fuel, and sure enough had to do a regen.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Actually Marc all diesels produce particulates but the amount depends entirely on how hard the motor is working and at what RPM it's working at. Example, if you lug the motor (low RPM) and apply a lot of fuel, the soot goes way up and likewise if you work the motor hard it will produce more particulates....and, you have to be careful about what you add to the fuel (additives and elixirs) because some may adversely effect the substrate in the SCR cannister. Always read the bottle is my guideline. It will say it's safe for catalytic reduction units. Why on late model tractors, the owners manuals will state to run the motors at rated rpm as much as possible. It's on purpose because a motor running at rated RPM produces less soot and oxides of nitrogen.

Before I retired, the outfit I drove for also owned 2 heavy truck dealerships and to this day, one of my closest friends is the service manager of one and I got to see close up some of the 'carnage' produced by owners not following the recommended regen guidelines (it was possible to over ride it in the past (regen), it isn't now, least on big trucks. I believe you still can on tractors but not sure as both mine aren't T4 units.

I do know that the components are very expensive, saw a couple replacement of what is referred to as the 'one box'. On a truck, the catalyist as well as the DEF injection is all in one enclosed, stainless cased unit and the replacement of that unit due to the owner not adhering to the recommended guidelines cost upwards of 10 grand, just for components and engine builders are very cautious about warranty issues even though the EPA mandate is 5 years on all emission related components, manufacturers are very careful and investigate any warranty claim because the cost of the components is so high.

DEF is interesting stuff. All it is, is purified (de-ionized) water and urea, but it freezes at 32 degrees (f) so it must be heated to inject it in the winter and because urea is like calcium, it clogs injectors so it's a high maintenance item. least with tractors (for now) only the over 100 horsepower PTO units require DEF injection but I'm sure that will change as the emissions standards get tighter. I see a time coming when ALL engines will be required to have at least selective catalytic reduction, even a lawnmower or a chainsaw. Diesel or conventional 4 stroke gasoline. Not sure about 2 strokes as the 2 stroke oil presently isn't compatible with the catalyst used in today's SCR units.

All I know is, at my stage in life, I fully expect my pre 4 tractors to outlast me so in that respect, I'm good to go and my pre emissions tractors will command a good return when sold because as people become disenchanted with emissions engine, they want to buy a pre emission unit and they aren't made anymore so the existing ones that are well cared for command a premium price.

All about clean air (I guess) and the depletion of the cash in your wallet..........


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## ck3510hb (Sep 12, 2016)

Thanks for the response's. I do keep the RPM up, Used off road a coupe times then switched to #1, Better all around. I tried a forced regen today, nothing. Guess I will find out eventually. Only stabilizer in stored fuel.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Diesel today is like mouthwash. it's all the same, just colored different. best to buy at a volume station but other than that unless it's sub zero, buying 'Super Diesel is a waste of money. All ULSD or next to no lubricating value which is the only reason I used an additive. I have mechanical pumps, they need internal lubrication. That and the biocide.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

In Canada the quality of the diesel fuel in regional. In Atlantic Canada, there is no bio blended in and the cetane number is only around 40 - 42. Soot production is a product of cetane number, EGR and/or rich mixture. Even and old diesel that is properly tuned will produce negligible soot.

I was able to demonstrate on a commercial tractor trailer a few years ago that increasing the cetane number to 55 could reduce the frequency of regens by a factor of three.

With SCR, the EGr can be reduced, thereby naturally reducing the soot production, while eliminating the EGR altogether in a modern common rail with a cetane number of over 50 virtually eliminates any need for regen.

It’s a remarkable scenario where the cure has made the disease worse. All these emissions standards that were introduced in order to reduce NOx has caused the engines to be less efficient and burn more fuel, resulting in more overall CO2.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

...and engine life is reduced because of the inherent heat they produce, Heat is the enemy of all engines, especially combustion chamber heat. Why engine manufacturers are going to more and more ceramic based components. Of course that blew up in Cummins Diesel's face with their catastrophic fuel pump failure. detonated ceramic pieces don't do well circulating in the lube oil. Kind of hard on things like journals and other rotating parts. T4 engines run HOT and even hotter with selective catalytic reduction.

Didn't know that Canadian diesel has no mandated in blended bio diesel. I really dislike bio diesel anyway. All it's good for is growing micro organisms that destroy fuel systems.

I've always maintained that if Rudolph Diesel were alive today, he'd be sad as to what his engine has become.


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## marc_hanna (Apr 10, 2017)

Never had a problem with too much heat in a diesel. Usually, it’s quite the opposite. In general, heat is pretty easy to deal with on a diesel. The advent of EGR created another neproblem, in colder climates, the engine could no longer get up to proper operating temperature.

The only people that seem to be having an overtemp condition are the ones that heavily modify their pickups with big turbos and injectors. 

While biodiesel has its problems, all in all, it has superior lubricity, cleaning and cetane number. The algae problem can be overcome with a good algacide. The biggest problem is the high freezing point - this has not been solved yet, and so nothing higher than B5 is good for the North.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

It gets cold here but not all that long. I don't drive my diesel truck in the winter anyway. it stays inside on a battery tender in a heated garage. never see road salt since 1997. I'm referring to summer operation and residual heat and as far as EGR on a diesel, all that really does is put hard carbon in the intake runner and foul the turbine blades on the compressor side. Both DDEC and Cummins have an ongoing issue with that. The intake runners get so carboned up with crystalized hard carbon, it cloges the sensors and causes the engine to derate and the only cure is replacement of the intake runner or sensor replacement regularly. it's almost impossible to remove. Kind of like what happens to a direct injection gas engine without wet injection of gasoline in the intake (at least automakers learned that lesson pretty quick). Earlier GDI engines (coke) the intake and cause intake valve issues. I have one. Only 'cure' is to regularly run an elixir like Seafoam though the throttle body and intake to remove the carbon. I do that every oil change now, In fact Seafoam comes in an aerosol can with a special straw that you can slip under the intake boot and put the entire bottle through the system. of course it will throw a check engine light because it fouls the downstream O2 sensor but that is an easy fix with a good scan tool. Don't work that way on a diesel however.

Gotta love all the 'clean air' fixes. Sure am glad neither of my farm tractors have any of that 'stuff'. Only 'stuff' thay have is each of the them has a boost controlled wastegate that limits over fueling at reduced rpm to curtail smoke (unburned particulates). Thats it. That was a pre 4 mandate.


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

I might add that I see the EPA is coming down hard with substantial fines on 'aftermarket diesel tuners' that sell and install modifications to on road going diesel's, especially pickup trucks that want to 'roll coal'. Fine with me. Talk about unnecessary pollution, there it is, in spades. Far as I'm concerned, the EPA can fine them out of existence.


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## willy81 (Jan 30, 2020)

Thanks for the response's. I do keep the RPM up, Used off road a coupe times then switched to #1, Better all around. I tried a forced regen today, nothing. Guess I will find out eventually. Only stabilizer in stored fuel.

I hope that you are not running #1 kerosene fuel in you tractor, its OK to add 1 gallon to 10 gallons of #2
diesel fuel in the winter. kerosene is used in jets because it burns very hot! #1 fuel kerosene will not 
lubricate like #2 diesel so your engine will kroke a lot sooner than using #2 fuel!

willy


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## SidecarFlip (Mar 25, 2021)

Actually ULSD really don't have much lubricating value in the first place because the lubricant (sulfur) is removed. The only parts that require fuel lubrication are the injector pintles and the pump and I'm not even sure if the new common rail high pressure injection pumps need it. I do know the old style mechanical pumps do. I'd just add an aftermarket lubricant like Howes or Stanadyne or your choice of additive so long as it states on the bottle, it won't adversely impact the Selective Catalytic Reduction element. I do know the substrate in the cannister is sensitive to additives so using the wrong stuff could adversely impact the life of the SCR element.

Things are much more touchy than they were before all the emissions hardware came into play.


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## ck3510hb (Sep 12, 2016)

I guess #1 was a poor choice of words. I get it from the over the road trucker pumps. . Just not sure if the system will eventually regen or shut down from clogging up. So far no change in power or exhaust.


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## willy81 (Jan 30, 2020)

That is the #2 diesel as I do not believe you will ever get #1 kerosene at the pump.
A lot of people use #1 kerosene for heaters in the winter time and some use it for
kerosene lamps. Back in the mid 60's in Italy kerosene heaters was all we had to
heat our apartment. I had to caulk all the windows Italians don't do that I guess.

willy


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